Civil Service - What makes up a 41 hour week?

pow wow

I don't want to ring and look like a muppet, so, does anyone know what combination of days/hours make up a 41 hour week? I haven't been able to come up with one so far (using all combinations in my head) and have only worked 35 hour weeks before.

Thanks.

PeakOutput

9am-6pm with 45mins for lunch??? think thats pretty much 41 hours

is that what you meant?

pow wow

Yeah thanks a million. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't get a combination that totalled 41 hours!

stepbar

ellscurr wrote:

Yeah thanks a million. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't get a combination that totalled 41 hours!

45 min lunch in the civil service!!! More like an hour and a 20 minute coffee break before lunch too....

You dont have to come in till 10am but you must do 8hrs.

And then theres the flexi time too. I knew one person who used to have 2 months off every year because she used to work up 11hrs in the month and got a day and a half off in lieu. The civil service, it's a great little institution we have.....

RainyDay

stepbar wrote:

And then theres the flexi time too. I knew one person who used to have 2 months off every year because she used to work up 11hrs in the month and got a day and a half off in lieu. The civil service, it's a great little institution we have.....

And your problem with this arrangement is?

PeakOutput

RainyDay wrote:

And your problem with this arrangement is?

jealousy obviously

ballooba

RainyDay wrote:

And your problem with this arrangement is?

Probably that he is paying your wages.

ixoy

I'd imagine that his problem is that it's something we all want - I know I do - but can't because it's not economically viable for private companies. To compensate though we get lower wages and less job security so it balances out. Oh wait..

It can be very frustrating though to watch. I work alongside civil servants but employed as a private contractor. The difference in work ethics and hours is unreal at times. It's also simpler stuff like the way tea breaks are done (I've seen morning "tea" breaks often last 30-45mins and nobody's clocking out for those).

I would of course join them, but they contract out most of the IT work (not all) so we're all scrabbling to get the few that are left over...

stepbar

PeakOutput wrote:

jealousy obviously

O obviously.... :rolleyes: How could I be jealous of a job, that will in the end, suck the life out of you. If you're young, the Civil Service is not for you. Having spent three months there one summer, it was plenty thanks very much. In fact I was so intrigued with the carryons, that I done my thesis on the civil service. Not wanting to bore you with all the detail but if the civil service was "put out to grass" (so to speak) it wouldnt last long. Its overstaffed and their work methods are outdated. But hey sure dont worry, its only mine and your taxes that are paying for it :rolleyes:

Madge

stepbar wrote:

And then theres the flexi time too. I knew one person who used to have 2 months off every year because she used to work up 11hrs in the month and got a day and a half off in lieu. The civil service, it's a great little institution we have.....

It's not like the person got extra days holidays :rolleyes:
They did overtime and worked up the hours. Perhaps it wasn't explained to you properly.

stepbar wrote:

How could I be jealous of a job, that will in the end, suck the life out of you.

I think it's what you make it. There's plenty of scope for moving around to different sections and getting promoted. Furthermore I guess it depends on your viewpoint. I know I'd prefer a career where I have job security, don't have any stress, don't have to go begging for a pay rise, and don't have a mean boss annoying me every day.

stepbar wrote:

If you're young, the Civil Service is not for you. Having spent three months there one summer, it was plenty thanks very much. In fact I was so intrigued with the carryons, that I done my thesis on the civil service. Not wanting to bore you with all the detail but if the civil service was "put out to grass" (so to speak) it wouldnt last long. Its overstaffed and their work methods are outdated. But hey sure dont worry, its only mine and your taxes that are paying for it

Sounds like you have sour grapes.

stepbar

Madge wrote:

It's not like the person got extra days holidays :rolleyes:
They did overtime and worked up the hours. Perhaps it wasn't explained to you properly.

Ok lets put it another way; if there was 11 hours extra work then fair enough but I can safely say that vast majority of those extra hours were spent on coffee breaks and fags or catching up on "de bit of gossip".......

Madge wrote:

I think it's what you make it. There's plenty of scope for moving around to different sections and getting promoted. Furthermore I guess it depends on your viewpoint. I know I'd prefer a career where I have job security, don't have any stress, don't have to go begging for a pay rise, and don't have a mean boss annoying me every day.

Sounds like you have sour grapes.

Not at all, im quite glad I didnt stay in the Civil Service because, as I've said it would suck the life out of any ambitious person. But everybody to their own I suppose.

RainyDay

ballooba wrote:

Probably that he is paying your wages.

Seems unlikely that Brian Cowen would be posting on boards. He pays my wages - no-one else. I don't claim to pay the wages of every bank employee just because I'm a bank customer, or every car production line working just because I buy a car. Indeed, I could claim to pay my own wages, as I pay taxes too of course. But that would be a rather silly claim, as would the claim for any other taxpayer to be paying my wages.

ixoy wrote:

I'd imagine that his problem is that it's something we all want - I know I do - but can't because it's not economically viable for private companies. To compensate though we get lower wages and less job security so it balances out. Oh wait..

It can be very frustrating though to watch. I work alongside civil servants but employed as a private contractor. The difference in work ethics and hours is unreal at times. It's also simpler stuff like the way tea breaks are done (I've seen morning "tea" breaks often last 30-45mins and nobody's clocking out for those).

I would of course join them, but they contract out most of the IT work (not all) so we're all scrabbling to get the few that are left over...

Mmmm - sounds like somebody got a PFO letter in response to an attempt to get into the public sector. Sorry to hear that you couldn't make the grade, but not everyone can make the demanding standards required. Don't expect anyone to take your gripes seriously when you are scrabbling to get a public sector job.

Having worked in both the private sector and the public sector, I can confirm there is no general difference between work ethics. There are slackers on both sides, and busy people on both sides. There are really smart people on both sides and really dumb people on both sides. If you see staff who are abusing their positions, why not report them to their HR department?

stepbar wrote:

O obviously.... :rolleyes: How could I be jealous of a job, that will in the end, suck the life out of you. If you're young, the Civil Service is not for you. Having spent three months there one summer, it was plenty thanks very much. In fact I was so intrigued with the carryons, that I done my thesis on the civil service. Not wanting to bore you with all the detail but if the civil service was "put out to grass" (so to speak) it wouldnt last long. Its overstaffed and their work methods are outdated. But hey sure dont worry, its only mine and your taxes that are paying for it :rolleyes:

General claims of 'overstaffing' and 'outdated work methods' will not be taken seriously. A 3-month summer job did not give you a broad view of the entire civil service or the people who work there. If you are foolish enough to draw generalised conclusions from your brief experience, you certainly wouldn't make the grade in the public sector.

Sundy

stepbar wrote:

And then theres the flexi time too. I knew one person who used to have 2 months off every year because she used to work up 11hrs in the month and got a day and a half off in lieu. The civil service, it's a great little institution we have.....

Id say thats rubbish flexi time is not that flexible. From any of my friends in the civil service/councils the most days off per month is two. It more likely there working term time or some other arrangement like that.

ixoy

RainyDay wrote:

Mmmm - sounds like somebody got a PFO letter in response to an attempt to get into the public sector. Sorry to hear that you couldn't make the grade, but not everyone can make the demanding standards required. Don't expect anyone to take your gripes seriously when you are scrabbling to get a public sector job.

I never applied for the public service. The work we're contracted out for isn't done by the public service. That's why it's contracted out. It's when we all look over at the (comparatively) easy ride that they have that we wonder about the difference in work practices.

Also I've been told that the overtime/time-in-lieu standards for civil servants is very attractive (open to correction, but a HEO gets a full day off in lieu for just working a partial day at the weekend for example). They're the sort of benefits that just aren't given in private practice and there's no real requirement for them other than strong unions having got them.

General claims of 'overstaffing' and 'outdated work methods' will not be taken seriously. A 3-month summer job did not give you a broad view of the entire civil service or the people who work there. If you are foolish enough to draw generalised conclusions from your brief experience, you certainly wouldn't make the grade in the public sector.

Really? Because perhaps the fact that some people are seen idle (by which I mean reading magazines at their desks) or taking long tea breaks is a hallucination that I'm having?
Is it over-staffing then? Or is it that certain work practices need to be altered (I know of an example where someone was told to cut down on their work output because it was showing up the rest of them).

stepbar

RainyDay wrote:

General claims of 'overstaffing' and 'outdated work methods' will not be taken seriously. A 3-month summer job did not give you a broad view of the entire civil service or the people who work there. If you are foolish enough to draw generalised conclusions from your brief experience, you certainly wouldn't make the grade in the public sector.

You're either deluding yourself or burying your head in the sand. In the social welfare office I worked in, they didnt even use email!!!!! or have proper PC's. Dumb terminals with keyboards. 1980's stuff. No intranet or internet access. The amount of paper involved made me squirm. Duplication was widespead. Clear division of labour. The IT system used merely recorded information which was all down on paper. I could go on and on. As I've said, I was so intrigued that I done my thesis on it. In fact I worked it out, the work that 5 levels of people done took 3 days to do. This work could have been done in a hour by 2 levels. All because every piece of work is clearly demarked. Now I think you'll find that the dept of social welfare is one of the most important government depts. To say it's a shambles is an understatement. Dont get me wrong, there are other depts that do a great job (e.g Revenue) and who use technology to streamline and improve processes. However, in general the civil service is overstaffed and there's plenty of opportunity to reduce numbers and streamline services.

Finally to say I wouldn't make the grade in the civil service is laughable. I'd piss all over the civil service and have done so in the past. For your information, I work for the one of the biggest banks on this island. Out of 2000 graduates who applied for my grad programme, 10 got the job. I was one. So don't give me that crap.

run_Forrest_run

RainyDay wrote:

Mmmm - sounds like somebody got a PFO letter in response to an attempt to get into the public sector. Sorry to hear that you couldn't make the grade, but not everyone can make the demanding standards required. Don't expect anyone to take your gripes seriously when you are scrabbling to get a public sector job.

Very funny
Seriously, about 'making the grade', I wonder how many people in the public sector have friends/relatives working there before they got the job??? When it comes to the public sector the old adage "It's not what you know but who you know" certainly applies.

I have reliably heard of CVs handed in with Post-Its on em with little notes mentioning the relative who works in some department in the public sector...jobs for the boys.

parsi

LOL .. I have heard the same said about the banks & the bigger consultancy firms. It seems to be commented on more for jobs that are perceived to have security - no-one whispers tales about someone getting a job in Dunnes in a similar fashion...

warrenaldo

Not a hope any of that friends/relatives crap happens. Maybe it used to be all public sector jobs now are done by the public appointments. The have set procedures and rules. and all is open to Freedom Of Information act - which is called upon quite a lot.
I worked in the private sector for a few years - and it was not bad. Money was better but work was harder.
I moved into civil service and it is a lot easier - work is mch more intresting. And flexi time is great. You work up 1 and 1/2 days off in the month and you must take them in the next month.

There are some dossers who chance their arm - and there are people who work extra hours but dont get paid. like anywhere.

Civil Service is NOT that easy to get into. Especially at the high grades like AO and HEO. Thousands of people apply for these jobs and only a handfull make it - its purely based on tests - not who you know.

Sposs

warrenaldo wrote:

I worked in the private sector for a few years - and it was not bad. Money was better but work was harder.
I moved into civil service and it is a lot easier

I think that statement sums it up for everyone working in the civil service, anyone with an ounce of ambition usually leaves quick smart, i know a very smart guy that worked in the civil service for a lot of money, he quit after six months for a lower paying job as he was so bored.

warrenaldo

when i say its a lot easier - i mean by hours working. I have a lot more time off to spend with family and friends. The civil service is lower paying. But it has a lot more prospects in the future.
One of my main reasons for joining was the fact that in 10/15 years i will have got 1/2 promotions and be fairly high up getting paid very good money.

I believe in private its less structured so less jobs at higher up levels.

Plus since starting in the civil service - its pretty common knowledge that few people leave. Maybe at CO level they do. But in general - People dont leave.

Sposs

That's nonsense , the benefits of the private sector are that if your good enough , you can get 10 promotions in 10 years.

1/2 promotions in the space of 10/15 years???

Why would they leave, you can't get fired and you keep getting promotions for just being there.

warrenaldo

depends what sector you work in. I worked in IT - 3 promotions and i was at the top of my field as a project manager. Now it would take 10 -15 years and i would get my annual raise also.

Im not saying the benefits of the private sector are not good.

They are - but the people who get those benefits are the ones who work HARD - but in the extra hours.

Benefits of the private sector are better but you have to work a lot harder for them.

Civil Service has better holidays, work practices. Even gives you flexi time.
If i stay late i get paid for it. Private sector it was expected of me - no extra pay(And i know thats the case in many private sector roles).

I see the benefits of the pricvate sector if you are GREAT at what you do and are willing to work hard. But personally i prefer civil service - i took at big pay cut to enter and im glad i did. I have much better social situation now.

run_Forrest_run

warrenaldo wrote:

when i say its a lot easier - i mean by hours working. I have a lot more time off to spend with family and friends. The civil service is lower paying.

what are U smoking?? Civil service is very well paid due to benchmarking and sure if the public sector want a little top up they can just down tools and go on strike as usual. I know people who are teachers and are earning more money then people in the IT sector, both with the same amount of experience.

hermit

run_Forrest_run wrote:

Very funny
Seriously, about 'making the grade', I wonder how many people in the public sector have friends/relatives working there before they got the job??? When it comes to the public sector the old adage "It's not what you know but who you know" certainly applies.

I have reliably heard of CVs handed in with Post-Its on em with little notes mentioning the relative who works in some department in the public sector...jobs for the boys.

You're an idiot. Please don't post comments full of opinionated lies like that.

The civil service and indeed the broader public service have open competition recruitment processes. You MUST do exams, You MUST do interviews. No other way in on a full time basis. Check out publicjobs.ie and apply for the next civil service role that comes up and you'll that "post-its" wont get you too far.


Not sure what magical mystery land your "reliable sources" come from but they ain't in modern day Ireland!!

RainyDay

stepbar wrote:

You're either deluding yourself or burying your head in the sand. In the social welfare office I worked in, they didnt even use email!!!!! or have proper PC's. Dumb terminals with keyboards. 1980's stuff. No intranet or internet access. The amount of paper involved made me squirm. Duplication was widespead. Clear division of labour. The IT system used merely recorded information which was all down on paper. I could go on and on. As I've said, I was so intrigued that I done my thesis on it. In fact I worked it out, the work that 5 levels of people done took 3 days to do. This work could have been done in a hour by 2 levels. All because every piece of work is clearly demarked. Now I think you'll find that the dept of social welfare is one of the most important government depts. To say it's a shambles is an understatement. Dont get me wrong, there are other depts that do a great job (e.g Revenue) and who use technology to streamline and improve processes. However, in general the civil service is overstaffed and there's plenty of opportunity to reduce numbers and streamline services.

Did the research for your thesis go as far as having an interview with the Head of IT of DSFA to understand their IT strategy, the resources available to them, the priority areas for attention etc etc. You don't see the big picture when you are doing summer work in the trenches.

Yes of course, there are things that could be improved and automated in every public sector organisation. Just like there are many opportunities for improvement in every private sector organisation. One swallow doesn't make a summer.

stepbar wrote:

Finally to say I wouldn't make the grade in the civil service is laughable. I'd piss all over the civil service and have done so in the past. For your information, I work for the one of the biggest banks on this island. Out of 2000 graduates who applied for my grad programme, 10 got the job. I was one. So don't give me that crap.

I guess your graduate programme application didn't include basic English ('I done my thesis'). Like I said, this just wouldn't make the grade in any public sector office.

run_Forrest_run wrote:

Very funny
Seriously, about 'making the grade', I wonder how many people in the public sector have friends/relatives working there before they got the job??? When it comes to the public sector the old adage "It's not what you know but who you know" certainly applies.

I have reliably heard of CVs handed in with Post-Its on em with little notes mentioning the relative who works in some department in the public sector...jobs for the boys.

Absolute rubbish. The public sector has the most open & transparent recruitment procedures, with all paperwork subject to FOI. Any interview panel that I've seen had at least 3 people, usually from 2-3 different organisations who independently score and rate all interviewees. 'Jobs for the boys' just doesn't happen.

In fact, many private sector organisations have formalised their 'job for the boys' approach with 'refer a friend' bonus schemes, so I think you are looking the wrong direction for 'who you know' type schemes.

Sposs wrote:

I think that statement sums it up for everyone working in the civil service, anyone with an ounce of ambition usually leaves quick smart, i know a very smart guy that worked in the civil service for a lot of money, he quit after six months for a lower paying job as he was so bored.

Yet again - absolute rubbish. The public sector has many of the brightest and best in the country. I've moved to the public sector after 20+ years in private sector roles, and I can confirm that there is little difference in the quality of the people. There are some really, really smart people on both sides, and a few really dumb people on both sides.

ixoy

I guess your graduate programme application didn't include basic English ('I done my thesis'). Like I said, this just wouldn't make the grade in any public sector office.

For starters, it's bad form to correct someone's spelling in a post. Secondly, you're surely kidding, right? I've seen some good documentation and I've also seen utterly appalling stuff written up by HEOs. The sort of stuff that was full of inaccuracies, spelling mistakes from someone in their position for years. And they're not an isolated case.

In fact, many private sector organisations have formalised their 'job for the boys' approach with 'refer a friend' bonus schemes, so I think you are looking the wrong direction for 'who you know' type schemes.

That's quite a different thing. All that is is to try and get a wider pool of talent to choose from. No guarantees whatsoever, especially in the bigger private companies where you couldn't make such connections anyway.
However, I do believe that the majority of civil service jobs are fairly entered into nowadays.

There are some really, really smart people on both sides, and a few really dumb people on both sides.

Agreed, of course. What I feel is that it's far easier to get away with being poor in the civil service and keep your job and pay-scaled increase than in the private sector. Conversely, it can be harder to climb the ladder if you're ambitious.

My biggest gripe is the "woe is us" attitude struck by many civil servants who want to be paid equivalent to a private sector position (which they are nowadays, and better often) and yet not want to give up the cushy benefits that they enjoy that most private sector firms don't give (good flexi-time, great overtime rates, long breaks, term time, job security, guaranteed pay increases, etc). It's having a cake, eating it, and then wanting to pig out on all the creams, buns, cakes, and flans in sight.

stepbar

RainyDay wrote:

Did the research for your thesis go as far as having an interview with the Head of IT of DSFA to understand their IT strategy, the resources available to them, the priority areas for attention etc etc. You don't see the big picture when you are doing summer work in the trenches.

It's not hard to understand their strategy, there is none!!!!. Anyhow, the Head of IT wouldnt talk to me. It says it all really. Cloak and dagger stuff in the DSFA. Lucky enough I was able to talk to a few people I knew, who in turn knew other people.

RainyDay wrote:

I guess your graduate programme application didn't include basic English ('I done my thesis'). Like I said, this just wouldn't make the grade in any public sector office.

O dearie me.... an oversight on my part. So sorry indeed..... Petty so and so. :rolleyes:

Making the grade? What are you on about? Making what grade :rolleyes: The civil service is certainly nothing that I aspire to. Can I question why, after 20 years in the private sector, did you feel the need to move to the public sector? Could it have been that you weren't "making the grade" yourself?

parsi

run_Forrest_run wrote:

I know people who are teachers and are earning more money then people in the IT sector, both with the same amount of experience.

Is that supposed to be some sort of metric ? Is it even a valid comparison ?

run_Forrest_run

parsi wrote:

Is that supposed to be some sort of metric ? Is it even a valid comparison ?

well what was the valid comparison/matrices used when benchmarking was established?

run_Forrest_run

hermit wrote:

You're an idiot. Please don't post comments full of opinionated lies like that.

The civil service and indeed the broader public service have open competition recruitment processes. You MUST do exams, You MUST do interviews. No other way in on a full time basis. Check out publicjobs.ie and apply for the next civil service role that comes up and you'll that "post-its" wont get you too far.


Not sure what magical mystery land your "reliable sources" come from but they ain't in modern day Ireland!!

modern day Ireland?? Many of the work practices and levels of efficiency in public sector roles are a far cry from modern day Ireland..come into the private sector to see how modern day Ireland operates clown.

BostonB

The major difference between private and public sectors is the unions. The advantage is better working conditions the disadvantage is it can be harder to get things done with a union involved. Its not very useful to make sweeping generations about the private or public sectors. As you can have bad and good pucblic sector dept/organsiations and public companies etc. I've worked between them both and you get a wide range of good and bad in both sectors. Often places are understaffed and underfunded, and you have to take that into account. You get inept and inefficient people in both sectors.