"Alternative" ain't what it used to be...

Karl Hungus

You know, I rarely post on this board, if ever... Which is actually a bit odd, seeing as I used to be into the whole alternative scene a lot. But I find that Alternative just isn't alternative any more.

In my teenage years, it was Smashing Pumpkins that was one of the biggest bands for me, aswell as Pearl Jam and other such bands. After that, when I was about 18 or so, I'd be mostly going to the main Alternative clubs here in Galway, and listening to aforementioned bands, aswell as Nick Cave and Muse and other such things.

But lately, what's called Alternative is, without being diplomatic about things, an absolute heaving pile of **** and garbage! It's all identikit bands like The Thrills, The Kinks, The Vines, and whoever else that come out with a hit song and is then forgotten about while the next big thing comes along a month later... It's crap, plain and simple. There's no passion, emotion, originality any more.

Listening to so-called 'Alternative' music today, it's all pop music! Pop music dressed up with guitars and sold to pretentious people who don't want to believe what they're listening to is pop. None of these identikit bands are ever going to come out with anything that matches Meloncollie & The Infinite Sadness, or Murder Ballads.

One thing that really put the nail in the coffin for me is that on the Rock/Metal board, there is a big thread about the Smashing Pumpkin's upcoming album, yet I've looked at the past 3 pages on this board, and there's not a whisper about it. Now either I've missed something, or it seems that even The Smashing Pumpkins aren't Alternative anymore...

It seems that the Pumpkins have far more in common with what's going on in the Rock/Metal scene than Alternative. I think it's bands like A Perfect Circle, Tool, Porcupine Tree and so forth, that are giving me the same thing that Pumpkins were back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVjDvJ0AfxY

I find that it's stuff like Devin Townsend, who's fairly well planted in Metal, that the Pumpkins have more kinship with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb3KFD3dkBg

Sorry for the rant... Feel free to tell me to **** off.

projectmayhem

the problem you're describing is not the loss of the "alternative" music, it's still there alright, but it's being caged in other sub-genres somewhere else rather then simply being "alternative". part of this is because "alternative" music isn't as big as it used to be (look at the charts generally), but the bigger part of it is simply because "alternative" is no longer a way to describe music, it's a fashion.

Sinfonia

Karl Hungus wrote:

The Thrills, The Kinks, The Vines,

is this a typo??????????????????

Karl Hungus

SumGuy wrote:

is this a typo??????????????????

Actually, that's just me trying to think of some bands that start with "The" and making a critical blunder.

padi89

projectmayhem wrote:

the problem you're describing is not the loss of the "alternative" music, it's still there alright, but it's being caged in other sub-genres somewhere else rather then simply being "alternative". part of this is because "alternative" music isn't as big as it used to be (look at the charts generally), but the bigger part of it is simply because "alternative" is no longer a way to describe music, it's a fashion.

Well put.Back around the times Karl described Alice in Chains,The Smiths and Aphex Twin were all played on the same "alternative" shows.Each a completley different sound its just now they have all been put in different genres.
I would assume the whole metal scene would seperate itself from the likes of Linkin Park,Limp Bizkit,funeral for a Friend

ogy

i kind of agree and kind of disagree with what your saying
pop music had always had a big part in alternative music, there have been quality alternative acts that are pop bands at the same time e.g. elvis costello, blur, super furry animals.

however, yes, just like gap selling mc5 and cbgb t-shirts "the man" has noticed that alternative sells and in doing so has made it not alternative anymore.

as someone else said music which contains similar qualities to what used to be grouped together as alternative music still exists but they don't neccesarily get associated as any kind of similar genre because they don't appear in the same magazines, same festivals, same djs playlists etc.
theres great stuff going on in lots of individual genres but sometimes that means you have to wade to crap to filter out the good stuff.

maybe the good music is hiding out behind other genres and crap music to through the corporations off the trail:)

smackbunnybaby

i love when you go on bebo and see peoples music interests.

"i listen to loads of types of music, snow patrol, the killers, damien rice, kelly clarkson. as you can see i am pretty varied"

dear God.....

lordgoat

Yeah this is a tough topic. I wouldn't classify any of the band you mentioned as alternative (sh ite yes) I'd call them pop. The way i break it down is if it's on today fm/2fm before 10pm it's not alternative. The very odd song sneaks in. The only really alt radio show i listen to and then again they're not strictly alt is JK's afternoon show on Lyric and The Small Hours Donal Dineen on today fm.

This is just something that souds about right to me. All these ****ing pissy bands from england in the last 5 years or so really bug me. I ****ing hate those bastards the fratellis. I would pay to never hear them again. I don't know how this cycle can be broken either they seem to be propagating them selves at a ferocious rate...

Sinfonia

smackbunnybaby wrote:

i love when you go on bebo and see peoples music interests.

"i listen to loads of types of music, snow patrol, the killers, damien rice, kelly clarkson. as you can see i am pretty varied"

dear God.....

I KNOW!
Jesus Christ..

"omg i'm sooo into music - i like the kooks, the killers AND razorlight"

Lunar Junkie

I think maybe you have it the wrong way around.. I'd say the early to mid 90s was a bit of a blip on the radar in that the 'alternative' rock bands were the ones who were the most popular, for a brief moment in time.. Now we're just back to normal.. i.e. 'pop' = popular. Alternative music is still around, it's just not being played on MTV, daytime radio or other such outlets as much. Also, I think Smashing Pumpkins are really more of a 'pop' band than you're making out (and making music that's overtly catchy isn't really anything to be ashamed of, in my book).

smackbunnybaby

they reviewed two albums on 2tv just there.
1. maroon 5 new one
2. the marilyn manson album.

now i know marilyn manson has been very accessible over the last few albums but getting reviewed on 2tv is totally new territory...

johnny_ultimate

smackbunnybaby wrote:

i love when you go on bebo and see peoples music interests.

"i listen to loads of types of music, snow patrol, the killers, damien rice, kelly clarkson. as you can see i am pretty varied"

dear God.....

Very true.
But yeah, alternative is still there. The 'tags' assigned to these things by the press are just nonsense words which should be ignored.

Captain Smiggy

hurm....Some bands labelled as Alternative/Indie are just that- labelled. 21 demands would have no problem being labeled pop, but people are afraid of the word, and it's nothing to be ashamed of really. The whole thing about it bewing a fashion now is very, VERY true. I would agree that it has become a marketing tool, but sadly, theres nothing can really be done about, unless you want to start calling Good Alternative a different name.....

Lunar Junkie wrote:

I'd say the early to mid 90s was a bit of a blip on the radar in that the 'alternative' rock bands were the ones who were the most popular, for a brief moment in time

Can i have some of what you're on please? There were ridiculous amounts of boy bands, girl groups around in the mid to late nineties, and why? Cos there was a market for them. Pop was HUGE back then, now it's rap and hip-hop moreso, or at least as far as i can see.

Stompbox

SumGuy wrote:

I KNOW!
Jesus Christ..

"omg i'm sooo into music - i like the kooks, the killers AND razorlight"

I'm pretty sure liking those 3 bands does justify being 'into' music. Just because they may not be into your specific genre of music doesn't mean they're 'a steaming pile of ****e'. I don't see why all these bands are being knocked,I personally feel The Thrills are an absolutely fantastic band who didn't stumble on the second album, contrary to what the rest of Ireland may feel. And what's wrong with the Fratellis might I ask? Fair enough,you're entitled to your own opinion but if you don't like a band surely you can just say 'they're not my cup of tea'?

Earthhorse

Was alternative ever what it used to be?

Tool were originally considered alternative rock but as that scene died down they were moved, albeit marginally, into the metal genre. Alice In Chains, on the other hand, who arrived just as the alternative scene was booming, were chucked in with it even though they were always really a heavy metal band.

When bands like The Thrills are labelled alternative, well that's just a mislabelling really and shows how meaningless the label has become and possibly always was.

nyarlothothep

debates about genre, where to begin, they get so convoluted and get lost in a fog of confusion

Bands like Tool can be considered alternative insofar as theyre not mainstream like Justin Timberlake. But they can also be progressive rock/metal or whatever. Meh, and then a band like Muse can be mainstream and alternative at the same time, a band thats crossed over. Or you can be alternative in being so utterly different to everything else yet also enjoy mainstream success like Radiohead or Bjork. Or a band can transform into a mainstream band. Or you can have mainstream bands that havent got mainstream success. Is there any point fixating over an absolute definition for what music belongs to what genre? Cos there never seems to be an absolute answer and I think its due to the fact that there probably isnt one, only tentative interpretations.

As regards Alternative "The Fashion" its utter bòllocks, just my personal experience of the snobbery that tends to dominate that scene

As regards Alternative music, my first impression of a band or song isnt, this is alternative, I rarely think of music in those terms, I think "thats a brilliant piece of art." Which on the spur of the moment makes me think is the whole notion of alternative a marketeer's wet dream?

Garret

well no alternative isnt what it used to be.

Is this bad?

No.

Sinfonia

Sweet wrote:

I'm pretty sure liking those 3 bands does justify being 'into' music. Just because they may not be into your specific genre of music doesn't mean they're 'a steaming pile of ****e'. I don't see why all these bands are being knocked,I personally feel The Thrills are an absolutely fantastic band who didn't stumble on the second album, contrary to what the rest of Ireland may feel. And what's wrong with the Fratellis might I ask? Fair enough,you're entitled to your own opinion but if you don't like a band surely you can just say 'they're not my cup of tea'?

I was agreeing with smackbunnybaby's post about how people claim their music tastes are well varied, and then list off several bands/artists who all fit into a similar genre, and who are also usually in the pop music charts.

What we are pointing out about this, is that these people's claims are essentially very wrong.

smackbunnybaby wrote:

"i listen to loads of types of music, snow patrol, the killers, damien rice, kelly clarkson. as you can see i am pretty varied"

This is not a very well varied selection of artists.

As for being 'into' music, what I'm pointing out is the amount of people who claim to be very into music, and yet don't bother to venture into any music outside of the charts. To me, this denotes not being very into music.

mr_angry

Tbh, if you associate your own identity with a meaningless badge assigned to musical genres, you're asking for trouble. All truely great artists will be followed along by a bunch of hangers-on who are trying to make a fast buck - the grunge scene of the early 90's was pretty clear evidence for this. Some of the poor fools in question don't even realise that they're being taken for a ride by the music industry.

In any case, does that mean that they aren't entitled to make music? Does that mean that the world can't badge them in the same genre as some of the artists that you actually liked? Sorry, since nobody owns the term 'alternative', musical press and marketing junkies can use the phrase wherever they like. If its any colsolation, the funds generated by these acts probably go a long way towards the financing of some of the artists that you actually like. Somebody's got to keep them in pints while they busy themselves imploding under the weight of their musical genius.

0ubliette

You really jsut have to compare the best examples of past and present alternative music to see just what a downward spiral its become:

90s:
Galaxie 500
Alice in chains
Smashing pumpkins
Nirvana
Failure
Pearl jam

00's
Razorlight
every band named 'the somethings' (cause lets face it theres not much difference between the kooks and the strokes or any other one of these identi-kit the bands)

So yeah, modern day alt-rock is, well, ****.

Acid_Violet

Karl Hungus wrote:

You know, I rarely post on this board, if ever... Which is actually a bit odd, seeing as I used to be into the whole alternative scene a lot. But I find that Alternative just isn't alternative any more.

In my teenage years, it was Smashing Pumpkins that was one of the biggest bands for me, aswell as Pearl Jam and other such bands. After that, when I was about 18 or so, I'd be mostly going to the main Alternative clubs here in Galway, and listening to aforementioned bands, aswell as Nick Cave and Muse and other such things.

But lately, what's called Alternative is, without being diplomatic about things, an absolute heaving pile of **** and garbage! It's all identikit bands like The Thrills, The Kinks, The Vines, and whoever else that come out with a hit song and is then forgotten about while the next big thing comes along a month later... It's crap, plain and simple. There's no passion, emotion, originality any more.

Listening to so-called 'Alternative' music today, it's all pop music! Pop music dressed up with guitars and sold to pretentious people who don't want to believe what they're listening to is pop. None of these identikit bands are ever going to come out with anything that matches Meloncollie & The Infinite Sadness, or Murder Ballads.

One thing that really put the nail in the coffin for me is that on the Rock/Metal board, there is a big thread about the Smashing Pumpkin's upcoming album, yet I've looked at the past 3 pages on this board, and there's not a whisper about it. Now either I've missed something, or it seems that even The Smashing Pumpkins aren't Alternative anymore...

It seems that the Pumpkins have far more in common with what's going on in the Rock/Metal scene than Alternative. I think it's bands like A Perfect Circle, Tool, Porcupine Tree and so forth, that are giving me the same thing that Pumpkins were back in the day.


Sorry for the rant... Feel free to tell me to **** off.

I'm 16 and since I just turned 13 Smashing Pumpkins have been my favourite band, so I appreciate another MellonCollie-phile's words. Actually probably all my favourite bands are from an era-lost.......90's grunge ftw.

So I was thinking to myself for a while about this era's music, just how **** it is in general, listening to Phantom ain't so good, plenty of **** on that like the Killers and other stuff that's also......****.

But then I thought, the reason why music from different era's that I know of is so good is because that's the only music that has survived. Now, I'm not so sure, all music seems the same boring vapid repetitve ****ty **** **** (I think this is the most times I've ever said **** in a post). So does anyone think there may be truth that the reason why music from the past was so good is because that which has survived was good, or am I afraid that it just happens that my youth has ben poisoned by icky bands of this horrible generation?

Btw, you forgot Radiohead, it's easy to call them depressing and all that but it's certainly hard to call them bad! Long Blondes ain't bad....Dresden Dolls? Maybe not altrenative, but quirky and cool, Dandy Warhols are good, not sure what genre yis'd put these bands under though, Kristin Hersh maybe? Come on, lets try to salvage whatever good alternative music of today there is!

Rozie

"Alternative" doesn't exist in this country any more.

And good god, people's interests on Bebo are dire. I think "okay they look like boring sods but you can't judge everyone on appearance surely" and they really ARE boring sods.

Face it, Ireland, especially, has become conservative and conformist as hell. It's not just "The Man" that's like that - it's the vast majority of people in general. Without any kind of sense of rebellion, music tends to get dire. People are becoming more and more apathetic, getting more worked up only about people that get worked up.

How can this sort of situation provide us with good alternative rock music? The 90s were progressive which is how alternative rock really came into it's own.

The only alternative band I can think of that's got any real recognition these days that cropped up post 00s is the Dresden Dolls - but honestly, their second album is pretty dire if you're looking for "alternative" as opposed to "mildly quirky". Most likely a one hit wonder.

If you were in Britain or even the US there would at least be some decent "Scenes" to be involved with - over here it's bollocks, all cover bands and Pub Rock wannabes.

If you want some REAL alternative music, try this guy - http://patrickmay2000.dmusic.com/

0ubliette

Rozie wrote:

"Alternative" doesn't exist in this country any more.

And good god, people's interests on Bebo are dire. I think "okay they look like boring sods but you can't judge everyone on appearance surely" and they really ARE boring sods.

Face it, Ireland, especially, has become conservative and conformist as hell. It's not just "The Man" that's like that - it's the vast majority of people in general. Without any kind of sense of rebellion, music tends to get dire. People are becoming more and more apathetic, getting more worked up only about people that get worked up.

How can this sort of situation provide us with good alternative rock music? The 90s were progressive which is how alternative rock really came into it's own.

The only alternative band I can think of that's got any real recognition these days that cropped up post 00s is the Dresden Dolls - but honestly, their second album is pretty dire if you're looking for "alternative" as opposed to "mildly quirky". Most likely a one hit wonder.

If you were in Britain or even the US there would at least be some decent "Scenes" to be involved with - over here it's bollocks, all cover bands and Pub Rock wannabes.

If you want some REAL alternative music, try this guy - http://patrickmay2000.dmusic.com/

in london at christmas, i have to say it lookes as bad as over here if not worse. I was in a club in camden and every person there was the same, like vast sea of clones, people with haircuts styled to look like they just got out of bed, but it really took them an hour to style it just right, and the music was all muck, but that was probably just the club i was in.

I dont think ive actually got any modern day alt rock in my cd collection. Its mostly dates up til about 2000. The only band to literally blow my bollocks off in the past 5 years or so have been sigur ros, and lately, Grizzly Bear.

And Acid Violet, i like the cut of your jib. We need more teenagers that dont listen to the utter ****e MTV spoon feeds you nowadays! Maybe then bands will start to realise that quirky haircuts and tight jeans do no maketh the band.

Earthhorse

Aw, we're not getting rid of the haircuts and jeans are we?

What am I gonna do with all this hair gel?

nyarlothothep

Rozie wrote:

"Alternative" doesn't exist in this country any more.

And good god, people's interests on Bebo are dire. I think "okay they look like boring sods but you can't judge everyone on appearance surely" and they really ARE boring sods.

Face it, Ireland, especially, has become conservative and conformist as hell. It's not just "The Man" that's like that - it's the vast majority of people in general. Without any kind of sense of rebellion, music tends to get dire. People are becoming more and more apathetic, getting more worked up only about people that get worked up.

How can this sort of situation provide us with good alternative rock music? The 90s were progressive which is how alternative rock really came into it's own.

The only alternative band I can think of that's got any real recognition these days that cropped up post 00s is the Dresden Dolls - but honestly, their second album is pretty dire if you're looking for "alternative" as opposed to "mildly quirky". Most likely a one hit wonder.

If you were in Britain or even the US there would at least be some decent "Scenes" to be involved with - over here it's bollocks, all cover bands and Pub Rock wannabes.

If you want some REAL alternative music, try this guy - http://patrickmay2000.dmusic.com/

I couldnt agree more, Ive noticed that a lot of bands that are popular at the moment like The Fratellis or The Kooks, and even though theyre not huge anymore the Polyphonic Spree, any number of these celebrated "indie"/alt bands etc have no edge, not in the same way as NIN or Radiohead, 90s bands. Imo they make chocolate box music which doesnt cast an eye on the state of the world. Imo they make music which fabricates comfort bubbles.

And its very true that there is a lot of conservatism in Ireland, but Id also think in England and America aswell. Art for me is rebellion and conflict. I dont know why the majority of music has been so **** as of late, but maybe its due to the rise and rise of consumer culture which hardly promotes creativity and does promote living in comfort bubbles. The fact that most bands are about image and nothing else confirms to some extent how music has gotten even more commercialized than it was in the past when it was still very much commercial. That said The Mars Volta is a great alternative band in recent memory.

Even though there were way more better bands in the 90s and that the naughts are like the 80s for music- it predominantly sucks, I would point out that the whole britpop era which was in the 90s was for the most part absolutely dire and not much different to now.

Imo the underlying problem is that art has been progressively multilated by industry.

magpie

It's all identikit bands like The Thrills, The Kinks, The Vines

Hmm, spot the odd one out. Obviously not a music historian.

And I hate to break it to you, but Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam are mass-market, manufactured corporate rock. I'm not sure what you'd consider them an alternative to, excpept perhaps Neil Diamond.

DadaKopf

Seriously, why's everyone gettin' all het up about a word?

tywy

magpie wrote:

And I hate to break it to you, but Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam are mass-market, manufactured corporate rock. I'm not sure what you'd consider them an alternative to, excpept perhaps Neil Diamond.

Add Muse to that list!

Ugh! One bad thing about Phantom, they play way too much Muse, how bland!

I would consider myself an alternative fan but I don't let the radio tell me what's alternative.

I know this isn't a listing contest but I'm currently listening to The National's new one, Arcade Fire in general, LCD Soundsystem and White Rabbits.

I generally flick around the internet, read what's getting good reviews etc. from places that have similar tastes to me. Then I give a listen, read the review again more thoroughly and see if I agree.

Karlusss

Alternative is a defunct label. It doesn't mean anything. It represented anything from Marilyn Manson to Smashing Pumpkins to Alanis Morrisette to REM in the 90s, but it doesn't have any modern meaning.

The worst thing about this thread, apart from someone who apparently considers himself enough of an authority on music to decry incorrect classification calling The Kinks a modern alternative band, is the fact it implies that what mainstream radio and the girl on Big Brother consider indie and alternative are actually indie and alternative.

Guitar rock is pretty much mainstream in Western Europe, so the real alternative these days would possibly be stuff in the area of Xiu Xiu and Lightning Bolt.

Acid_Violet

magpie wrote:

And I hate to break it to you, but Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam are mass-market, manufactured corporate rock. I'm not sure what you'd consider them an alternative to, excpept perhaps Neil Diamond.

They were mass-market, manufactured and corporate to the extent that they got a label that made them successful in the music industry but those bands, Pumpkins esp. had a new sound, had a different sound, a distinguishable sound and personally I don't think rising to the top because of this makes you mass-market, manufactured or corporate.

Speaking of industry, it shall soon collapse hopefully. This shall result in smaller bands being able to develop and make it, as opposed to the **** people come out with that they suffer the most because labels need money to support them. It'll result in bands being able to make it by word of mouth and selling online as opposed to depending on ****ty record deals where the get hung out to dry. It'll change music from being an industry to being culture again. And with this music may become more localised instead of everything from everywhere sounding the same.......

JC 2K3

The key lesson to take from this is DOWNLOAD PEOPLE!

I can't remember the last time I bought a major label CD.