what do good players do here??

bops

Howdy everyone!

I've been back at the tinternet for the last week playing 2/4 and it's going really good - i haven't played online for a month or two - it's good to take a break now and again

anyways i have no hand converter tool so i'll write it out (i aint a beebo generation kid!)

2/4 6 max

im the BB (350) with 97o

UTG Folds
UTG+1 (500) Raises it to 16
Cutoff (320) Calls 16
Button (200) calls 16
SB(140) Calls extra 14

I call the extra 12 (i'm priced in??)

Flop 4 8 10r (80)

SB goes AI for 120 - he's been getting on my nerves, raising and calling raises and pushing AI (massively overbetting) on raggy flops uncontested

AFAIK the other players in the hand a solid enough

anyway what do i do??

Fold Call Push ????

The results are a bit sick, i shudda taken it to the BB sticky - but i would like to hear peoples opinions first

cheers

Bops

5starpool

I know this is the response you were expecting, and possibly hoping for so that you could explain how your Boppery works.

Fold preflop, fold now. You are a 2/1 shot roughly, and assuming no one else calls you are getting less than even money.

Tar.Aldarion

Fold preflop, fold flop for me.

death1234567

as above, Fold pre flop.

El Stuntman

you called, he had TT and you rivered the straight

yawn

Mr.Plough

yea fold everywhere.

Bandana boy

5starpool wrote:

I know this is the response you were expecting, and possibly hoping for so that you could explain how your Boppery works.

Fold preflop, fold now. You are a 2/1 shot roughly, and assuming no one else calls you are getting less than even money.

Well he is getting better than even money although not quite his 2-1


If you think hitting your 7 or 9 will win the hand against the sb then raising all in could be an option although i doubt this is the case

I reckon we need to hit our straight to win the hand and we are currently not getting the odds to hit our straight so if your going to call then a flat call would be best and hopefully somebody else will come along with us giving us the odds we require for this to be a winning play

Also on a side not this is a fold pre flop but if you make the call and hit your flop ( this is pretty much what you hope for when you call with 79) i think you have to play

bops

very sorry if you all find my posts boring/wrong etc, but i think i have real questions here and would appreciate some help

Q1 - when is it ok to call raise from BB with any2?? what price do i need (if there is one?) I call $12 more for a pot total of 80 - this means i'm getting 5.67/1 - yes??

Q2 - what to do when i pick up the draw??
lets be honest here - when i call PF there are only 5 real flops i wish to see
1) 99x
2) 77x
3) 97x
4) T8x (with no FD)
5) 86x (with no FD)

ok so i got one of the flops i'd hope for, now

What odds do i need to continue??

i think i need 2.2 on my money?

pot 80
AI 120

Total 200

ok 1.67 - so not enough...yet

there are 3 decent players to act behind me and i'm fairly confident that one of them has at least an overpair - look for agruments sake say one of them will be calling

therefore

Pot 80
AI 120
Call 120

Total 320

ok 2.67 - fair enough

say there's only a 50/50 chance that one other will call - now that a fair assumption here!

1.67 + 2.67 = 4.34 / 2 = 2.17

2.17 = 2.2 in my book and the exact odds i'm looking for

So on that basis i think the call is fine

OK? now this is where i think it gets complicated!!

what happens if i call and someone pushes (causing me a decision for a further 210$ - and also brings into the mess that he probably logically has a set and therefore my winning odds a cut)

Min odds required still 2.2

Pot 80+120+120+120+210 = 650
cost 210

therefore 3.1 cool!

...but what happens if they only call the AI like me and there's a blank turn

Pot 80+120+120+120 = 440 and then they push - 210 = 650

i need 5/1 :mad:

i really don't like being put to this decision - so do i push the flop and close my eyes??

If i get no additional callers i'm not getting the odds (1.67 vs 2.2) - but at least i'm in with a fighting chance and my entire stack isn't on the line

If i get a caller i have the odds!

[EDIT - if i push will i scare out better hands eg AA - or will it entice them to call?? hard to say really? ]

and ye think i'm just a pretty face!! - i'm sure there's probably big errors up there so any help would be appreciated - thanks

5starpool

Ok, so I obv took off my maths head initially and made a boo boo. However, this usually ends upbeing the type of pot where you end up saying 'how did I get myself into this one'.

Bandana boy

I think you still have to call the flop as it is what will most likely get you another caller and if your raised which i think any Op will do fine and dandy

If you get 1 flat caller and a blank turn well you now have a decision
you have some choices
1 check and hope for check behind
2 check fold
3 check call
4 A blocking bet of say 90 and hope you only get called this normally would not work but betting into a dead pot will usually make anything except a set here stop and think and you have now given yourself the odds to call a push :-) I call this the Twerg gambit

valor

this hand is just dumb

bops

why??

thanks for the help all the same - you're a star

bops

thanks Dom & B Boy - i understand the calling PF is probably "dumb" but i tend to call with poor hands oop when getting a good price - implied odds and all that lark - anyway is the rest of my logic dumb in this hand?? i really really really would like to be told yes/no with a good explanation - thanks

the bottom line is that i don't like to get my stack in on a draw (especially not calling it off anyway) - am i right to fold this spot ever/always - i would like to hear the answer "YES - Fold is correct" - beacuse it would make my decisions in future a lot easier when i know that the fold is the correct move - but my twisted? logic says its correct to call??


aaarrrrrrgggggggggg help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5starpool

Taking the 5 'good' flops you list above, the first 3 are ones that you will generally be happy to get your money in calling, whereas in general you would like to use the 68/8T boards as semi bluffs with outs if called. I don't really like calling bets on those boards especially with other players still to act, as, despite what you might think, in most cases none of them will get involved. If one of them has an overpair (99-JJ) this can't be looking good now. QQ+ may get involved, but apart from the PFR no one is surely likey to have that hand, and it is in general unlikely that someone flopped a set.

So in summary, it is unlikely that someone else will call. It is possible that someone else may shove and then you have to call, so you end up at this point on a draw for your whole tank with 79o. Yes, you will hit occasionally, but the amount of times you call raises with rubbish OOP will never be compensated by the times when you manage to stack someone.

Then again what do I know.

Hectorjelly

Its funny how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Firstly, fold preflop. Your hand is rubbish.

Secondly, once you get to the flop you cant call the bet. You are roughly 2:1 to make your draw, which means you can call a pot bet all in. No more. The bet is already a good bit bigger than the pot so you shouldnt call, you cant count on people calling behind you. They may fold, they may raise, anyway calling here is just horrible. If they call you may not even see the river which means you paid a huge amount of money to see one card.

bandanda boy, i dont want to be rude but I disagree with almost everything you have said in this thread. Calling preflop does not mean you have to go with this hand, thats totally illogical.

El Stuntman

bops wrote:

the bottom line is that i don't like to get my stack in on a draw (especially not calling it off anyway) - am i right to fold this spot ever/always - i would like to hear the answer "YES - Fold is correct" - beacuse it would make my decisions in future a lot easier when i know that the fold is the correct move - but my twisted? logic says its correct to call??

with three players still to act, folding here is correct. There, I said it!

bops, calling the 3BBs extra with garbage OOP seems like a serious leak imo (even in a 5 way pot). Maybe if you were 3/400 BBs deep but you're not, in fact most of the villains only have 75BBs or less. Maybe your post-flop skills make up for this questionable pre-flop play, I dunno.

(mind you, I suppose this why your location reads as it does!)

what happened anyways? I presume you called and some sick sh!t went down??

kryogen

yes i am intrigued as to the outcome, knowing u i think u definatly called!! i fold pre flop btw, i do not want to get involved oop with this hand, as u sed there are only 5 flops u are happy to see... and it is so easy to b tempted to get the money in on those 68 8T boards..do u really need to?? if i am comfortable at a table i much prefer picking my spots and letting them gamble with me for their stacks rather then me gambling for my stack when theres no need!!

Give up the $4 pre flop man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5starpool

I am guessing that you called, PFR shoved, you call. Shorty has JJ, PFR has AA and turn and river both come a 7.

ollyk1

What's with people only looking for good players opinions these days....:(

Pure racism it is.....

mdwexford

has bops ever put up a hand where he played it to peoples liking.....i cant remember one.

i agree with the fold PF, fold on the flop etc etc.

if the hand is suited do people think it makes much of a difference, is it a call PF then?

bops

all taken on board - but tbh i still am not convinced

well anyway i pushed!

the next guy (the orig raiser) calls :eek:
the Cutoff calls with his remaining 300 :eek: :eek:

i'm now getting like 1,000/1

the shortstack who pushed first had top pair - KT
me - fishboy
Orig Raiser - JJ
Cutoff - AA

If you think I played it bad, have a look at what they were doing

El Stuntman

turn and river cards for sickness factor pls

bops

El Stuntman wrote:

turn and river cards for sickness factor pls

lol ok don't get your knickers in a twist!!

...bops slowmotion mode came into immediate affect!!

I started shouting SIX JACK SIX JACK

and a beautiful 6 appeared on the turn...

Then I roared (spitting 'n stuff!) Don't you dare pair that fcuking board (I didn't see what they had until i looked up the log)

and a beautiful K popped out (poor fella with the KT)

This hand was completely butchered from start to finish by all concerned - they only decent play was the orig raise by JJ - i think they all deserved to loose more than me - the poker gods are pretty fair!!

[EDIT I forgot to add 79o is the nutleys!!!!!!!!!]

Marq

I prefer pushing to calling, but I prefer folding at any stage of the hand where it's possible to do so.

EDIT/ considering you won a 3 buy-in pot, I think you did everything right.

kryogen

lol u are a sick sick human being....nh sir wp and all that!! (fish)

El Stuntman

bops wrote:

This hand was completely butchered from start to finish by all concerned

no arguments there!

****e play, nice result sums it up for me....

Bandana boy

Hectorjelly wrote:

bandanda boy, i dont want to be rude but I disagree with almost everything you have said in this thread. Calling preflop does not mean you have to go with this hand, thats totally illogical.

I dont think this is in the least bit rude

I can see why you would disagree
I think it is a horrible postion to be in
I was trying to give suggestions of what to do once he has put himself in that position

As for the Twerg gambit thats is an in joke against a friend of mine who keeps giving himself odds to call with stupid bets

but i think once he has got here in a raised muti way pot he surely has to play such a strong draw No?

jacQues

Marq wrote:

I prefer pushing to calling, but I prefer folding at any stage of the hand where it's possible to do so.

EDIT/ considering you won a 3 buy-in pot, I think you did everything right.

.

fuzzbox

bops wrote:

very sorry if you all find my posts boring/wrong etc, but i think i have real questions here and would appreciate some help

Q1 - when is it ok to call raise from BB with any2?? what price do i need (if there is one?) I call $12 more for a pot total of 80 - this means i'm getting 5.67/1 - yes??

I would call too.

Q2 - what to do when i pick up the draw??
lets be honest here - when i call PF there are only 5 real flops i wish to see
1) 99x
2) 77x
3) 97x
4) T8x (with no FD)
5) 86x (with no FD)

ok so i got one of the flops i'd hope for, now

What odds do i need to continue??

You need better odds than you got, you need to fold now. If you call this bet, with incorrect odds (you need ~2:1, but you are being offered 1.7:1 or so), then you actually might end up getting the whole rest of your stack in as at least a 2:1 underdog (its worse if you are facing a set, or facing JJ or facing J9). If you make mistake at this point, you may end up making creating a situation for yourself, that forces you to get your whole stack in, and while the final call may be technically correct, you still cannot hide the fact that you could still end up getting 2.5:1 in a main pot, where you are about 2:1 to win, but getting even money in a bigger side pot, where you are at best 2:1 to win.

i think i need 2.2 on my money?

Only if the action ends here.

pot 80
AI 120

Total 200

ok 1.67 - so not enough...yet

So fold

there are 3 decent players to act behind me and i'm fairly confident that one of them has at least an overpair - look for agruments sake say one of them will be calling

How are you confident? Do you have X-ray vision?

therefore

Pot 80
AI 120
Call 120

Total 320

ok 2.67 - fair enough

Thats if your opponents have precisely - an overpair and another kind of one-pair. If you are facing a a better hand AND a better draw, or if you are facing a set and a better draw, then you are substantially worse off.

say there's only a 50/50 chance that one other will call - now that a fair assumption here!

This is a 2/4 game, and the action has been pretty heavy thus far. There is nothing to say that you will get called by an overpair, and even if you are played with, then the overpair will surely push.

1.67 + 2.67 = 4.34 / 2 = 2.17

2.17 = 2.2 in my book and the exact odds i'm looking for

Those are the odds for you to make your straight, not for you to win the hand.

So on that basis i think the call is fine

Its clearly not fine.

OK? now this is where i think it gets complicated!!

As opposed to the current simplicity?

what happens if i call and someone pushes (causing me a decision for a further 210$ - and also brings into the mess that he probably logically has a set and therefore my winning odds a cut)


Min odds required still 2.2

Pot 80+120+120+120+210 = 650
cost 210

therefore 3.1 cool!

...but what happens if they only call the AI like me and there's a blank turn

Pot 80+120+120+120 = 440 and then they push - 210 = 650

i need 5/1 :mad:

i really don't like being put to this decision - so do i push the flop and close my eyes??

You could just fold the flop and close your eyes.

If the first instance occurs (you call, and villain shoves), then you pretty much have to call, but you have managed to get a lot of BBs into the pot in an unfavourable position.

If i get no additional callers i'm not getting the odds (1.67 vs 2.2) - but at least i'm in with a fighting chance and my entire stack isn't on the line

It sure is a good thing that you aren't risking your stack ....

If i get a caller i have the odds!

Or not

[EDIT - if i push will i scare out better hands eg AA - or will it entice them to call?? hard to say really? ]

You dont really care if AA comes along. In fact you welcome AA coming along. Its J9 that you dont want. You already figure to be behind the original dude, so anybody else that comes along with a non-JJ overpair, is good for you, as it doesnt really affect YOUR equity in the hand (although it does hurt your side-pot winning ability)

and ye think i'm just a pretty face!! - i'm sure there's probably big errors up there so any help would be appreciated - thanks

Several big errors.

smoothcall

Id defintiely cal preflop. as you said your getting a vg price. Its a cash game and you theres no big deal if you loose 16.

Now when the flop comes , Id defintely fold, true you got one of the flops you wanted but when SM pushs your not gettin your price. Your Logic is bad when You bring players acting behind you into it. If someone pushes behind yo AI you end up putting 320 into 320 + 80 +120 = 580 .

phantom_lord

i'd auto-fold this pf.

earthworms

i think its a deffo call pre flop just in case you hit it hard

Marq

phantom_lord wrote:

i'd auto-fold this pf if I was the sort of player who was going to happily get my stack in on the flop with 9-high and a non-nut straight draw with no folding equity. If I was good enough to not play really badly on the flop, I might call.

FYP

sikes

earthworms wrote:

i think its a deffo call pre flop just in case you hit it hard

would you call with 72o just in case you hit a hand?

There is very little difference between the two, becuase you are rarely going to be able to play a straight draw profitably OOP in this situation and you should never continue with a single pair hand. Pretty easy fold for me, and I would think calling for any player is a leak.

EDIT: Hi marq

Ste05

I'd also call Pre-Flop pretty much everytime here,

sikes

this seems to come up every second week, can anyone tell me with a bit of maths or something to show where we make up the equity that we give up preflop?

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

this seems to come up every second week, can anyone tell me with a bit of maths or something to show where we make up the equity that we give up preflop?

What equity are you giving up preflop?

sikes

fuzzbox wrote:

What equity are you giving up preflop?

the fact we continue with the hand 4% of the time.

Ste05

Where do you get that figure from??

sikes

Flopping 2pair, trips and a straight is roughly 4% i believe

Hectorjelly

Its a much bigger raise this time!

Ste05

sikes wrote:

Flopping 2pair, trips and a straight is roughly 4% i believe

How about a straight draw, or the flop being checked around and hitting a backdoor straight draw. etc.

I'm happy to play a pot with a straight draw alone on the flop and it's basically what I'm looking for.

[Edited to include quote to give context to my post]

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its a much bigger raise this time!

Are you in the right thread HJ??

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its a much bigger raise this time!

meh!

Hitman Actual

sikes wrote:

Flopping 2pair, trips and a straight is roughly 4% i believe

Something in the region of 10% if you include quads, full houses's, and OESD's.

sikes

lenny_leonard wrote:

Something in the region of 10% if you include quads, full houses's, and OESD's.

take out the OESD!

Ste05

Why??

sikes

Ste05 wrote:

How about a straight draw, or the flop being checked around and hitting a backdoor straight draw. etc.

I'm happy to play a pot with a straight draw alone on the flop and it's basically what I'm looking for.

[Edited to include quote to give context to my post]

This was discussed at length in another thread a couple of weeks ago. This time though the raise is bigger and its an online game. I dont think its profitable to play straight draws OOP, especially in a 5 way pot with <5xPOT stack, with other stacks shorter than ours.

Ste05

OK, I disagree

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

This was discussed at length in another thread a couple of weeks ago. This time though the raise is bigger and its an online game. I dont think its profitable to play straight draws OOP, especially in a 5 way pot with <5xPOT stack, with other stacks shorter than ours.

When closing the action and the cost being 12, to win a pot of 16*4 + 4 = 68 (thus getting ~5.5:1), its hard to refuse.

Also, we have excellent relative position.

I really dont see what the problem is.

sikes

The pot is 80 on the flop and we have just over 4xpot stack, with other varying stack sizes. Draws are profitable when bet them to decieve and folding equity. However, against 4 other players and the odds the shorties will be presented with when we lead, our FE is reduced massively. Also, when we are this shallow in relation to the pot, the value of deception goes way down too. Thats generally why i would think its bad to continue with straight draws here.

So now we are looking to hit our 4% of boards that we continue with, each time trying to make up the times we miss. So on average we need to win 240$ or something like that.