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What did you think of the General Election results ?..
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30-05-2007 1:41am#1
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FG and Labour may not have had all the answers, but we're looking at haveing 23 out of 25 years of FF rule. That can't be good for Democracy.
yep, any wonder our politicians are corrupt, FF only answer to themselves.
good points il gatto!
a fish rots from the head down!
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We live in a small Country, which is peaceful with a stable economy. We should be grateful for that.
thats a fairly patronising comment.. i'm not ungrateful, paddy, but i know that this country could do alot better for itself.
the main economy we have in this country is the construction industry.and it is not stable.
politicians are being paid an obscene amount of money to run the country, and they're not really doing it to the best of their abilities.most of them, only seem to be interested in making money for themselves.
I was out near falcarragh the other day, and i saw new houses being built beside a beautiful lake..who the hell gives permission to do that?
presumably the council, unless its being erected without permission.if thats the case, what are the council doing about it? and if not, why not?
why can't they do their bloody jobs? is that not what they're being paid to do?
The councils attitude to planning is something like.."alright lads, lets build another road near hughies land so we can increase the value of it.."
just like the new kilmacreannan autobahn..
as someone already suggested, donegal people love to complain, so what is the solution?
should we pick up a spade each,sack all the worthless hospital consultants, and start building a new hospital with the saved cash?
advertise in the local newspapers for gardai, start employing qualified road engineers into the council?
build bus lanes, and bike lanes for the future development of the letterkenny, with my bare hands? :P
what should we do?
don't complain? :rolleyes:
its almost a crime these days.
just as example of how incompetent local politicians and councilors are is the fact that letterkennys population has been growing, but the infrastructure hasn't..because those in charge don't have a clue what they're doing.too busy making money for themselves.0 -
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ctc_celtic wrote:great lets start THE INDEPENDENT BOARDS PARTY
to find a leader, i suggest all members drink a lot of water, then we find a very tall wall and the leader shall be the person who....:D
watch out FF
I used to play that at school when I was a lad, but now unfortunately I am an old adult So none of that for me .
P.:cool:0 -
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il gatto wrote:As far as the health system goes, if so much money has been poured into it, it's not a case of no amount of money being able to fix it. It's purely a case of bad management of expenditure, which the government, and the civil servents charged with it's management, and who are appointed by government, making a complete hash of it. Of course money can improve it, just not when they spent it incorrectly.
exactly what i was thinking too, great minds think alike
alot of people get jobs too just from knowing each other rather than on a good track record of work..which is also the result of a lot of incompetence.given a job they aren't capable of doing properly.
Its a good job we don't have nuclear reactors in this country, imagine the disasters we'd have!!
Don't think anyone here can argue with that.:pil gatto wrote:Now that they are recovering quickly, interest rates are on the up and many people are in for a torrid time. The last government took alot of credit for the economy. I wonder will they still be playing the "safe pair of hands" card in five years time when it emerges they can do little to control things.
i would say the government can't believe how they managed to get a third term..no doubt if people don't spend their cash, FF will do it for them, if they go ahead with the 2nd NDP.what a joke.il gatto wrote:Any economic boom which relies on the construction industry to the extent Ireland does, can only have a finite existance. Already many towns have more appartments and retail units than they can fill.
exactly, and most of the people living in them work in the construction industry!! hahaha!
Not to mention that alot are foreign nationals. my question to all those who believe "we've never had it so good" is what the hell do you think the foreign nationals will do when the construction finally comes to a halt?
if people don't have work in construction in future, which currently alot of people do have, they won't be able to afford buying from shops, and shops won't be able to employ staff, pay rent..etc people won't be able to keep payments on mortgage, or loans, credit card payments...loss of construction will hit everything.i wonder will it be really messed up?, lets wait and see.
there are already empty houses all over the place.
so everything stands on construction to keep rolling? that is NOT economic stability.il gatto wrote:I don't feel I've benefitted much, but I am not just a begrudger. It is an economic fact that this government has overseen a widening of the gap between rich and poor. A fact the media were only too happy to report on up until last year. When the country is at it's richest ever, this smacks of A. ineptitude, or B. not giving a damn.
i'm not begruudger either, i just think people believe too much in this "celtic tiger" myth, because that is all it is, a big myth.
anyone who appears to have lots of money is usually up to their eyeballs in debt..does that mean you're "doing well"??il gatto wrote:I feel the media helped swing opinion, but viewing of the media is very subjective. It's just how it appeared to me.
without a doubt in my mind, the media had ALOT to do with FF getting back into power.0 -
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jimmycrackcorm wrote:The health system is just unmanaged. But an you blame the government for that when if they were to turn around tomorrow and say we are going to sack all the excess staff, there would be near riots on the streets.
jimmy, do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
And yes i know PD's were part of the government, but it seems to me, mc dowell and harney were fallguys for the poor health and justice system.jimmycrackcorm wrote:And our parents took even greater risks and got houses 10 times cheaper. It was even more difficult in those times. I personally know of young couples on low incomes taking out 35 year mortgages and not only can they afford to pay them but they're buying plasma tvs too.
What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?jimmycrackcorm wrote:When is the last time you met a poor person? It's all very relative - the only poor in this country are those who can't afford to buy a playstation 3.
i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.jimmycrackcorm wrote:I have benefited myself on an ordinary level ( i.e. I don't have speculative property investments). I have a good job and money in the bank thanks to charlies SSIA. But at the expense of leaving the northwest for better opportunites. you make your own luck as they say...
exactly jimmycrackcorm, you had to leave the north west to benefit on an ordinary level, see the contradiction when you say "things are better"? (..ok, you didn't say that exactly)
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
you probably don't have to survive on 310 euro a week, some do, some do it on less..but we won't talk about that, will we?
would you be happy to work for that? after you pay rent, food, heating..there isn't much left to show for the work you did.
thats why alot of young working people still live at home with their parents.
if the only solution is to move, like yourself, we may aswell all move, and give 2 fingers to the northwest...and go on
boards.ie and tell anyone who stayed behind that life in ireland is great!jimmycrackcorm wrote:As I work in IT, I am well aware of how the nedap machines work, and no, they don't use tape. They are simply flawed by not having a paper printout for backup verification because people trust banks computer systems to manage their money but not a simple vote counting computer.
My point was that going down the electronic route is the first step to enabling us to have more say in the decisions of our governemnt. IMHO it is not the be and end all but the beginings of more accessible voting for all. The first step is to get people acclimatised to it.
i understand the software is flawed, full of security vulnerabilities, and was deemed unsuitable for use.
not sure if having a paper trail would make a difference if someone were capable of accessing the system remotely without authorisation.
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are uselessSeanies32 wrote:What the same with the country on its knees with queues outside the American Embassy and kids begging on the Underground.
oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :PAs regards, health when are the political parties going to grow up and point out to the electorate that we can not have a Health system like Germany or Sweden unless we increase taxes? All political parties are guilty of this.
i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked. 0 -
Average Joe wrote:
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are useless
i think you'll find that the more important the computer system, the more important the need for a paper trail.
i know from my work, any information that is required by law, even though it is all entered in our computers and back-up daily. we still have to have a paper record and keep it for 2 years.0 -
ctc_celtic wrote:i think you'll find that the more important the computer system, the more important the need for a paper trail.
i know from my work, any information that is required by law, even though it is all entered in our computers and back-up daily. we still have to have a paper record and keep it for 2 years.
i know what you mean, but are your computers accessable remotely? are they directly connected to the internet without a properly configured firewall? can they be be logged into during the day before a backup, if so, what good is a paper trail then?
we can ask, but not know the answer,
is the central computer which records accumulated votes connected to the internet? is it possible to cause a DoS (Denial of service) attack on this system remotely?
Is the protocol for authentication, (if any at all) secure? is it weak? i don't know, do you?
None of these things, AFAIK have been tested on the NEDAP machines, which need to be, and alot more tests carried out, before we have any confidence in its operation.
these NEDAP systems can be accessed remotely, so IMO they have no integrity.if its all computerised, and a backup is done at the end of the day, there is no way you're gonna know whether the output is accurate and truthful.
The dutch company that designed the system probably didn't care how secure it was, as long as it worked, and they got the money for it..thats all that matters, you know this if you work in i.t and your boss doesn't care about a customer.
e-voting might sound like a good idea on paper, but when you have a government with no good i.t heads working on it, just greedy money grabbing consultants, you're going to run into serious problems.
The government never seem to think of the obvious problems until the very last minute, and then its too late.
security should be a priority in this situation, but because some company makes a promise to meet a deadline, or complete the job at some initial cost, security is sacraficed for functionality, and so is democracy...for whats its worth
the source code AFAIK has been given to the irish government for review, on a non-disclosure agreement.
can we trust the government to audit the code? i would say no, until we know what individuals are given the job of reviewing it.0 -
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Average Joe wrote:jimmy, do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Average Joe, I'd really enjoy a debating pint with you in the Orchard. As I work in middle management myself I understand this... It is the responsibility for top level management to set policy and direction. It is the responsibility for the lower management to implement this policy and that is where it gets bogged down.Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
And yes i know PD's were part of the government, but it seems to me, mc dowell and harney were fallguys for the poor health and justice system.
Mary did ask for the job and fair play to her for doing so, and I'd quite readily agree that FF were happy for her to take the flak.What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?
I remember the 80's well. I remember being the only person out of my college course who ended up getting a job in Ireland. I recognise the loss of siblings who emigrated and have family now that I rarely see compared to those who I do see now given that the opportunities do exist at home.i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.
I challenge you to define being poor in this day and age in modern Ireland? Who do you know won't get a dinner tomorrow or have any tv to watch...?exactly jimmycrackcorm, you had to leave the north west to benefit on an ordinary level, see the contradiction when you say "things are better"? (..ok, you didn't say that exactly)
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
I don't accept the "world owes me" theory that says that should I choose to stay in the North West that a job matching my training should appear. You have to make your own fortune, it won't be handed out to you. Companies such as Pramerica in Letterkenny are testament to government intervention but we can't rely on the government to be the total solution.you probably don't have to survive on 310 euro a week, some do, some do it on less..but we won't talk about that, will we?
would you be happy to work for that? after you pay rent, food, heating..there isn't much left to show for the work you did.
thats why alot of young working people still live at home with their parents.
Why don't we talk about it? Let's make a comparison to the sacrifices previous generations made in emigrating before we talk about how the current generation is faring.if the only solution is to move, like yourself, we may aswell all move, and give 2 fingers to the northwest...and go on
boards.ie and tell anyone who stayed behind that life in ireland is great!
That's not the point. What Economic theory is it that states that everyone born in a particular area is entitled to a rich and deserving career there?i understand the software is flawed, full of security vulnerabilities, and was deemed unsuitable for use.
not sure if having a paper trail would make a difference if someone were capable of accessing the system remotely without authorisation.
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are useless
No. it's called an audit trail. It's a verification method for a process and a valid concept at that. It's not there to indicate failure, it's there to substantiate correctness.oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :P
Well if you want to get a measure of being better off nowadays, I think that a comfy seat on a flight to JFK with multi-choice, in-seat entertainment and on-demand hospitality is a good example.i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked.
Apart from the ethics of effectively stealing consultants from where they are needed more, such as India and Pakistan, a better approach is to negotiate a productive settlement.
As much as I enjoy the debate, I think we need to bring it back into the context of the forum. I actually came back to post a note on my concerns regarding the green party in government. The government previously announced a plan to build a strategic road to the northwest; the Greens are against road building and I fear that they will object to this plan and that this will have a major impact on the perhiperal economic development.0 -
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Average Joe wrote:do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
Mary Harney did come down strong on the Nurses and the consultants and the Nurses go on Work stoppages, which going by opinion polls had public support. I'd love Harney to ban Unions in the public service, but! :mad:
They have a vested interest and its funny how everybody condemns lobbying groups like the Construction Industry but not the Unions. They're a vested interest as well.
Unfortunately, Unions are here to stay. Hopefully this Govt. will address in some way the public sector pay issue and the joke of benchmarking.Average Joe wrote:What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?
No problem at all with that. But things are better than the 80's which are 20 years ago and the Famine ships which are 200 years ago as you brought up. You brought up the queues outside the American Embassy, not me. It's ridiculous to bring up the Famine.
Emigration was a fact for most of the history of this state, The World Bank was close to calling us bankrupt, and if it was now, Bono and Bob Geldof would be campaigning to reduce our debt along with the Third Worlds. The striking difference in the last 20 years is, instead of accepting Emigration in the 80's we now accept immigration.
I agree with you things should be better still. However unlike 20 years ago, and probably for the first time since a brief period in the 60's, we are in control of where we go from here. To me, Health is the major issue in the next 5 years. I don't care how its done, either Harneys co-location or the old, build more public beds argument, thats for another debate, but if we do not have a reasonable Health Service, with a reasonable A&E and reasonable waiting times, with people not dying waiting for operations then this country will have failed its people in 5 years time.
High prices, better wages levels, etc. are important issues but they are economic problems which will take time to solve, a reasonable health service is a civil right for somebody regardless of income.
Unfortunately the opposition let us down on health. They did not suggest a radical alternative, like the Berlin model, just more of the same. If they had said no more tax cuts and we'll invest that money in the Health Service I would have voted for them for no other reason than suggesting a proper alternative. Instead they tried to appeal with tax cuts and more investment in Health.Average Joe wrote:i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.
Do you have children? I wouldn't buy mine a Playstation 3 either but what about Nintendo's, PS 2's , PSP'S and games at €50/60 ago. Nearly all kids have these done and the money is coming from somewhere.Average Joe wrote:
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
There was no minimum wage in 1997 and there was far more tax and PRSI on low wages then. Do you have any comparable data from 1997 and 2007?
Unemployment now is 17.6%, unacceptable, yes, but despite the population rising about 12% and Fruit of the Loom, Magees etc. it was 22% 10 years ago.Average Joe wrote:oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :P
Did you experience the 80's? Did you experience the Famine ships either ?
Lets go begging and on the Famine ships, sure they are nearly as bad as we have it now:DAverageJoe wrote:i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked.
Would love it to! But how long would that take and I'm sure the existing consultants would just stay until we sourced the replacements! Patient Care being their main interest of course like the Nurses!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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