What do christians think of Scientology

jonny72

I can't find a 'general' religion board, so I'll post this here, I don't think you can actually class scientology as a religion but i am very curious as to what most normal christians think of it as.. or anyone for that matter..

Are there any Irish scientologists?

After reading about its history (and founding!!!) and watching a few documentaries I have to say I think it is quite a scary organisation..

PDN

I think it is a quite bizzare set of beliefs established by a science fiction author who thought that starting a religion would be a good way to make a lot of money.

What makes scientology scary is that it gets violent against anyone who opposes them or wants to leave - but then there are other religions that do that much more (and are therefore much scarier).

John Wine

PDN wrote:

What makes scientology scary is that it gets violent against anyone who opposes them or wants to leave - but then there are other religions that do that much more (and are therefore much scarier).

If they had live footage of the crusades and inquisition, and made a documentary about that, what would happen? Would people just then say to Christians:
'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.'

PDN

John Wine wrote:

If they had live footage of the crusades and inquisition, and made a documentary about that, what would happen? Would people just then say to Christians:
'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.'

I quite agree that Christendom in the time of the Inquisition was much more violent, and therefore much scarier, than scientology is today.

Of course, if you follow the line of argument that we should excuse scientology because of Christendom's past, then you will reach some absurd conclusions in other areas of life. For example:

Politics used to be incredibly corrupt in the Middle Ages, therefore we should ignore today's much milder practice of giving TDs brown envelopes.

The death penalty used to be practiced on a daily basis in most European countries, therefore Europe should turn a blind eye to executions in China.

As others are fond of observing, two wrongs don't make a right.

philologos

I class Scientology as a cult that tries to harass and humiliate all who are opposed to it after seeing the BBC Panorama documentary. I see why the Irish and British states fail to see it as a religion.

Michael G

Jakkass wrote:

I see why the Irish and British states fail to see it as a religion.

Scientology probably should be classified as a religion because it is a system of beliefs and prescriptions based on premises that cannot be proved (I speak as a fairly right-wing Catholic by the way). It isn't centred on a supreme being, but then neither is Buddhism.

jonny72

Michael G wrote:

Scientology probably should be classified as a religion because it is a system of beliefs and prescriptions based on premises that cannot be proved (I speak as a fairly right-wing Catholic by the way). It isn't centred on a supreme being, but then neither is Buddhism.

I think the fact that you have to pay to become part of scientology and keep on paying is the reason that it has not been given tax-free exemption or recognised officially as a religion here in Ireland and in Britain.

Red Hand

Jakkass wrote:

I class Scientology as a cult that tries to harass and humiliate all who are opposed to it after seeing the BBC Panorama documentary. I see why the Irish and British states fail to see it as a religion.

How do you define a cult? I see very little difference between cults and religions...both seem to involve charismatic leaders, with devoted acolytes who spread the leader's word, often by force, or else by some sort of holy war.

Michael G

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Cults and religions...both seem to involve charismatic leaders, with devoted acolytes who spread the leader's word, often by force, or else by some sort of holy war.

No, we Catholics gave all that up some time ago. That may have been a mistake, admittedly, but it's hard to go back. We have got used to a lazy lifestyle, watching television, going on websites, generally letting ourselves go. It's not easy to recapture the old crusading spirit and go out burning heretics and slaughtering infidels again, especially in bad weather.

delta_bravo

As a Christian I hold the opinion that im sure most non christians do of it. A mind altering, money hungry cult

Grudaire

What makes it ridicules is not only the membership of Tom Cruise, but more the statement by the founder, who actually said:

The best way to get rich is to set up your own religion....

Trustworthy.

philologos

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

How do you define a cult? I see very little difference between cults and religions...both seem to involve charismatic leaders, with devoted acolytes who spread the leader's word, often by force, or else by some sort of holy war.

Click here for definitions.

What would say it for me is that Scientology is intended to hurt and destroy, split families etc. Whereas other faiths would work for the benefit of human kind.

mossieh

Scientology appears to have been set up to make money.
It's the primary purpose. I think the other religions might have started out with better motives but found that making money was a nice side effect. Whether their motives are more or less noble though, the ultimate goal is the same, to control peoples attitudes and behaviour and make a few bucks while doing it.

Scientology is not particularly more abhorrent to me than any other cult/religion. Ultimately is the idea of xenu and his alien buddies any less credible than verbose burning bushes and moving statues?

Fallen Seraph

Jakkass wrote:

What would say it for me is that Scientology is intended to hurt and destroy, split families etc. Whereas other faiths would work for the benefit of human kind.

If you were to say that to a scientologist, they'd probably point out the fact that they do an awful lot of work with alcoholics and drug addicts. They'd also be liable to mention that scientology is, indeed, working for the benefit of human kind and, in their opinion, doing a better job than all the other religions. (Which, incidentally, were most likely created by an alien warlord to enslave the minds of humanity and divert them away from the true path that is scientology)


And also, to be fair, I doubt it's intended to hurt and split up families; just to make money, the hurting and destroying families is only incidental...

Asiaprod

Fallen Seraph wrote:

And also, to be fair, I doubt it's intended to hurt and split up families; just to make money, the hurting and destroying families is only incidental...

Good post, all of it.

Sangre

Cult = small religion.

philologos

When you have to pay a subscription to find out the secrets of life you know theres something messed up with that.

anto1208

You have got to love the hypocrisy here ,

they believe a far fetched story – so do Christian’s think about it if you heard this story for the first time , God made the earth in 7 days ( even though its 65 billion years old ) after a few years he sent his son down to earth , he could do miracles so the people killed him , he rose from the dead 2 days later and we eat a bit of his body and drink some of his blood each week. Any one that opposes these thinking s are killed ( spanish inc.) Any scientists that opposes us we ll call witches and burn them alive ( lovely ).

Scientology while nuts is no more weird than Christianity a lot less violent and aggressive and while they say the quickest way to get rich etc etc at least they admit it , no one spot the massive house the pope lives in in his own city surrounded by gold and billions of dollars and a swimming pool and bowling alley in the basement

Fallen Seraph

anto1208 wrote:

You have got to love the hypocrisy here ,

they believe a far fetched story – so do Christian’s think about it if you heard this story for the first time , God made the earth in 7 days ( even though its 65 billion years old ) after a few years he sent his son down to earth , he could do miracles so the people killed him , he rose from the dead 2 days later and we eat a bit of his body and drink some of his blood each week. Any one that opposes these thinking s are killed ( spanish inc.) Any scientists that opposes us we ll call witches and burn them alive ( lovely ).

Scientology while nuts is no more weird than Christianity a lot less violent and aggressive and while they say the quickest way to get rich etc etc at least they admit it , no one spot the massive house the pope lives in in his own city surrounded by gold and billions of dollars and a swimming pool and bowling alley in the basement

Hipocrisy? One person has said that it's a bizzare system of beliefs. And what, pray tell, is more bizzare about the story of Christ than say, the special and general theories of relativity? Or quantum mechanics?

It's also a fairly objective statement to say that, in these days, Christianity isn't nearly as agressive as Scientology is. It's not without its blemishes. But it's a bit much to suggest it's as bad as Scientology.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

When you have to pay a subscription to find out the secrets of life you know theres something messed up with that.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/faqs/bl_scientologyfaq.htm
Does Scientology charge outrageous amounts of money for initiations?

One of the most persistent criticisms of the Church is its fees- advancement through all of the 'levels' is quite costly. But the Church itself is a listed non-profit organization, and nobody appears to be getting rich (certain televangelists do much better for themselves). Additionally, there are breakaway groups, such as "FreeZone," which administer the "technology" for no fee.

robindch

Arguably, the physics of GR and QM do propose a universe which is every bit as bizarre as christianity does. However, GR and QM have evidence to support them, they make accurate predictions about the future and more importantly than anything else, I can't imagine anybody flying a Boeing into a building because he feels that the Higgs Boson is Real. Your comparison is invidious!

In terms of effects on human beings, I would imagine that scientology is currently causing less human harm than christianity which has a thousand times the population of believers and consequently, less dramatic ideas can produce more damage. Look, for example, at Africa, where AIDS is killing several million people every year and most christian congregations refuse to support programs of preventative education, and in some cases, actively misinform people.

anto1208

Fallen Seraph wrote:

Hipocrisy? One person has said that it's a bizzare system of beliefs. And what, pray tell, is more bizzare about the story of Christ than say, the special and general theories of relativity? Or quantum mechanics?

It's also a fairly objective statement to say that, in these days, Christianity isn't nearly as agressive as Scientology is. It's not without its blemishes. But it's a bit much to suggest it's as bad as Scientology.

Id never suggest that christianity is as bad as Scientology ......its worse .

Ill give you the phelps good christians that picket funeral of dead soldiers and gays .

the pro life guys that murdered doctors for performing abortions !!

The telvangelists that make millions preaching !!!

George Bush !!! all the red neck deep south , the KKK all good god fearing christian folk

show me one person in scientology as bad as that !!

Fallen Seraph

anto1208 wrote:

show me one person in scientology as bad as that !!

The people who forced a woman into an "introspection rundown" (which is post-mental breakdown treatment for them) where she was locked in a dark room for several days and emerged dead with cockroach bites all over her body.

Fallen Seraph

robindch wrote:

Arguably, the physics of GR and QM do propose a universe which is every bit as bizarre as christianity does. However, GR and QM have evidence to support them, they make accurate predictions about the future and more importantly than anything else, I can't imagine anybody flying a Boeing into a building because he feels that the Higgs Boson is Real. Your comparison is invidious!

Oh I doubt not the veracity of the physics; nor am I arguing that they are religious. I'm just saying that one cannot argue that the christian view of the world is any less bizzare than the current scientific one (if you're excluding evidence as criteria for bizzareness...)

humanji

anto1208 wrote:

Id never suggest that christianity is as bad as Scientology ......its worse .

Ill give you the phelps good christians that picket funeral of dead soldiers and gays .

the pro life guys that murdered doctors for performing abortions !!

The telvangelists that make millions preaching !!!

George Bush !!! all the red neck deep south , the KKK all good god fearing christian folk

show me one person in scientology as bad as that !!

Well if you take into account all the christians who ever lived, then the small amount you named are not even a fraction of the total. Comparing it with scientology isn't exactly fair now, is it?

There are evil people who believe themselves to be Christians, but the Scientology belief itself is evil. There's a very important different there.

robindch

FS wrote:

I'm just saying that one cannot argue that the christian view of the world is any less bizzare than the current scientific one

Well, yes, of course you can't argue that until you say what you mean by bizarre. But arguing about whether one idea is more 'bizarre' than another is a bit pointless -- it doesn't get us anywhere.

What's a more useful way to spend this pleasant Thursday afternoon is to try to establish which of the ideas on offer is the most accurate.

Wouldn't you agree?

Fallen Seraph

robindch wrote:

Well, yes, of course you can't argue that until you say what you mean by bizarre. But arguing about whether one idea is more 'bizarre' than another is a bit pointless -- it doesn't get us anywhere.

What's a more useful way to spend this pleasant Thursday afternoon is to try to establish which of the ideas on offer is the most accurate.

Wouldn't you agree?

Ah yes, very true indeed.

anto1208

humanji wrote:

Well if you take into account all the christians who ever lived, then the small amount you named are not even a fraction of the total. Comparing it with scientology isn't exactly fair now, is it?

There are evil people who believe themselves to be Christians, but the Scientology belief itself is evil. There's a very important different there.

Again im not comparing them, the christians are worse there is no contest , do you have a history book ?

There is nothing evil about scientology , they do nothing that christian churches dont do on a grander scale yet have the cheek to go around lieing about the scientologists .

philologos

anto1208 wrote:

Again im not comparing them, the christians are worse there is no contest , do you have a history book ?

There is nothing evil about scientology , they do nothing that christian churches dont do on a grander scale yet have the cheek to go around lieing about the scientologists .

Who is worse at the present time? Easily the Church of Scientology.
Are you a scientologist by the way?

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Easily the Church of Scientology.

Er, where are you getting that from?

If you cannot find a modern day Christian church that is worse that the Church of Scientology you aren't looking hard enough.

philologos

anto1208 wrote:

George Bush !!! all the red neck deep south , the KKK all good god fearing christian folk

show me one person in scientology as bad as that !!

What makes you think the KKK complies with the Bible, the book of faith of Christianity?
The Bible condemns racism of any kind. "Do not oppress foreigners, Remember you were foreigners before I brought you out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God." "Treat foreigners as your fellow Israelite" etc, etc, etc. There are a number of different references written throughout.

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

Er, where are you getting that from?

If you cannot find a modern day Christian church that is worse that the Church of Scientology you aren't looking hard enough.

No I can't find a Christian church that accurately follows the Bible as the source of morality, that is worse than the Church of Scientology.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

No I can't find a Christian church that accurately follows the Bible as the source of morality, that is worse than the Church of Scientology.

Groan :rolleyes:

Can you find a Church of Scientology that accurately follows Dianetics that you object to?

These types of discussions always come back to the default response of Well those aren't real Christians

The Scientologists say exactly the same thing.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

What makes you think the KKK complies with the Bible, the book of faith of Christianity?
The Bible condemns racism of any kind.

Clearly the KKK would disagree with your interpretation

philologos

Theres nothing to disagree about those quotes which clearly say foreigners should be welcomed in society and in the Christian / Jewish faiths.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Theres nothing to disagree about those quotes which clearly say foreigners should be welcomed in society and in the Christian / Jewish faiths.

Firstly in the passage "foreigners" means non-Jewish people. You are a foreigner, the Jews are supposed to be welcome in their lands (Israel). So are the KKK.

Secondly the KKK have no problem with foreigns (proper foreigners or non-Jewish people), they never did. In fact they didn't like Jews and the KKK was often made up of first or second generation immigrants from western Europe. The KKK had problem with black Americans, and Jews, and Catholics

By its very nature that passage seperates "foreigners" from God's chosen, which is exactly how the KKK viewed the world. The KKK had no problem with black people being black so long as they weren't being black in God's chosen land (America). This passage supports that view. We will be nice to a black man if he comes visit but he ain't living here.

So that passage is pretty irrelevant to any of this. You are simply taking an interpretation that you want out of it, and it is a bit of a stretch at that.

But then again the entire Bible will always appear to support the interpretation that you want it do. The KKK feel exactly the same, to them the entire Bible supports their position.

Sangre

Jakkass wrote:

No I can't find a Christian church that accurately follows the Bible as the source of morality, that is worse than the Church of Scientology.

The whole Africa AIDs and no condoms thing is pretty dubious.

philologos

Yes and thats a blanket statement, there are a lot of Christians, including myself who believe that contraception is acceptable and that it doesn't violate Biblical law.

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

Secondly the KKK have no problem with foreigns (proper foreigners or non-Jewish people),

Are you saying that blacks and Jews aren't proper foreigners. Please explain what you mean by proper foreigners. The Biblical statement means anyone, this stupid limitation of "proper foreigners" isn't mentioned anywhere.

Sangre

Jakkass wrote:

Yes and thats a blanket statement, there are a lot of Christians, including myself who believe that contraception is acceptable and that it doesn't violate Biblical law.

Very good, you asked me to name ONE Christian Church. Last time I checked the RC Church vocally advocated a position of no condoms in Africa. Are you going to tell me they don't use the Bible as a moral source.

philologos

Fair enough, I still wouldn't consider the RC Church to be worse than the Church of Scientology. Not that I am a member of the RC Church.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

These types of discussions always come back to the default response of Well those aren't real Christians .

Probably it comes back to this wicknight, because they aren't, real Christians. Any one can stand up and say that they are something, but a simple comparison of the claims and beliefs vs. the teachings would show very clearly that they are not Christians.
Just because you may not like to hear it, does not mean that it is not true.

Wicknight wrote:

The Scientologists say exactly the same thing.

My point exactly, they may say and claim all they want, yet they are not Christian.

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

Firstly in the passage "foreigners" means non-Jewish people. You are a foreigner, the Jews are supposed to be welcome in their lands (Israel). So are the KKK.

If we are really going to get into a pedantic argument over the use of the word foreigner. Most of the foreigners in the Torah that were discussed would have been Moabites, Midianites, Amalekites, Girga****es (excuse the swear filter), and Caananites. No matter how much we discuss it foreigners, are foreigners to the race in question.

humanji

anto1208 wrote:

Again im not comparing them, the christians are worse there is no contest , do you have a history book ?

There is nothing evil about scientology , they do nothing that christian churches dont do on a grander scale yet have the cheek to go around lieing about the scientologists .

I was going to write a full reply, but I think Jakkass hit the nail on the head. You're a Scentologist, aren't you (or will you sue me for saying that? )

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Probably it comes back to this wicknight, because they aren't, real Christians. Any one can stand up and say that they are something, but a simple comparison of the claims and beliefs vs. the teachings would show very clearly that they are not Christians.
Just because you may not like to hear it, does not mean that it is not true.

But my point is they are not Christians as defined by you

Since no objective or independent definition exists of a Christian actually is, it is not possible to say who is or is not a real Christian.

You can certainly say that they don't follow what you think are the important core beliefs of the religion, but again that is simply what you think the core beliefs of the religion are.

You can say that to be a Christian one must have accepted Jesus and therefore is someone had accepted Jesus they would not act as someone in the KKK acts, but again that is simply conjector on your part. The KKK member would no doubt claim that someone who truly accepts Jesus and the message of the Bible could not act any other way than the way he acts

BrianCalgary wrote:

My point exactly, they may say and claim all they want, yet they are not Christian.

Jakkass is saying that you cannot compare Christians to Scientologists because Scientology is a cult that is about making money and splitting up familys.

Of course the Scientologists will just answer exactly the same as how you and Jakkass answer -

A real Scientologists would not be interested in making money out of the religion nor are they interested in brainwashing people or splitting up families.

A real Scientologist is only ever interested in improving their mental state and help others do the same.


If you ever hear about a "Scientologist" doing something bad, such as brain washing someone or taking money, they are not real Scientolgoist.

You therefore cannot say that the religion of Scientology is in anyway bad because if anyone is doing something bad then they are not a real Scientologist and the religion cannot be blamed for how these fake scientologists act.

Of course this is utter nonsense, and I doubt Jakkass would accept that at all (nor should he).

Yet for some reason we are expect to accept this deeply flawed reasoning when discussing Christianity. Anyone who does something bad is by definition not a proper Christian and the religion cannot be considered in any way responsible for this.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

If we are really going to get into a pedantic argument over the use of the word foreigner.

Why not, you seem to have not problem getting pedantic over the words in the Bible when people are trying to show the bad in it ...

Jakkass wrote:

Most of the foreigners in the Torah that were discussed would have been Moabites, Midianites, Amalekites, Girga****es (excuse the swear filter), and Caananites.

Exactly, they were non-Jews. You are a "foreigner" according to the Old Testament. So are the KKK. Race doesn't come into it. If anything you can say that the KKK should have been nice to black tourists from outside the US.

Jakkass wrote:

No matter how much we discuss it foreigners, are foreigners to the race in question.

And ... ?

The KKK were not Jews, the black slaves were not foreigners. This passage doesn't apply at all to the issue of race relations in the deep south unless you want to try and make it fit, which the KKK most likely had no desire to. Therefore to them it would have been completely irrelevant. It only means something to you because you want it to mean something.

If you like I can quote you back all the passages of the Old Testament that deal with the treatment of slaves, which I'm sure the KKK were happy to draw upon.

As I've said before, the Bible will appear to fit what ever moral stance you want it to fit.

It is as easy for the Bible to appear to support slavery and racism as it is to make the Bible appear to be against it.

You have to first find slavery and racism bad before the Bible will appear to tell you this. If you think slavery and racism are fine then the Bible will appear to support this fully, as it did for the KKK.

philologos

Feel free Wicknight, but bear in mind you've hijacked the thread from it's original topic of what Christians think of Scientology.

As for your rediculous KKK argument, "Treat your neighbour as yourself". There's no arguing about that.

PDN

Jakkass wrote:

Fair enough, I still wouldn't consider the RC Church to be worse than the Church of Scientology. Not that I am a member of the RC Church.

Historically speaking, the Catholic Church has committed much more violence than Scientology - but then that's because the Catholic Church has been around for so long and has had many millions of adherents. Today, in general, the Catholic Church is a pretty non-violent and benign institution, and IMHO no sane informed person would try to equate them with Scientology.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Feel free Wicknight, but bear in mind you've hijacked the thread from it's original topic of what Christians think of Scientology.

I seem to remember you stating that Scientology was terrible and Christianity was great (or something long those lines).

When posters, including myself pointed out that Christianity has its fair share of terrible things you simply said that that wasn't real Christianity.

I am merely point out that that is a ridiculous argument that I imagine you wouldn't apply to Scientology so why are you applying it Christianity?

Scientologists claim exactly the same thing, that what you think is terrible about the religion is not real Scientology at all. I very much doubt you would accept that as a valid response to valid criticism leveled against the Church of Scientology.

You dismissed off hand anto1208 comment that there is nothing evil in Scientology, simply saying that he must be a Scientologist to think that (I imagine that is supposed to imply he has been brain washed into believing that). Would you also say that only a Christian could think there is nothing wrong with Christianity?

This point seems to have been completely lost on you.

Jakkass wrote:

As for your rediculous KKK argument, "Treat your neighbour as yourself". There's no arguing about that.

Of course there is, anything in the Bible can have multiple interpretations.

In the Bible (and Jesus' teaching in the New Testament) "neighbour" means fellow free Jewish person. Slaves are not referred to in the Old Testament as "neighbours" (even the Jewish slaves) so it is again a completely irrelevant point when discussing how the KKK viewed black slaves. Slaves are a completely different class in Biblical society, and have completely different set of rules of interaction, and large parts of the Old Testament are given over to explaining this. Things that would be considered totally unacceptable to do to your fellow Hebrews (your "neighbour") are considered fine to do to your slave.

To the KKK this would have made perfect sense and simply confirmed to them that slavery was the natural order of things and that is was wrong to allow black slaves to be treated as free equals ("neighbours").

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Today, in general, the Catholic Church is a pretty non-violent and benign institution, and IMHO no sane informed person would try to equate them with Scientology.

A sane informed person would simply have to look at how the Catholic church has (and still is) handling the sexual abuse scandals, or the AIDS epidemic in African to see that the Church still has a far greater negative influence on society that Scientology has or possibly ever will.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

In the Bible (and Jesus' teaching in the New Testament) "neighbour" means fellow free Jewish person.

Totally incorrect. In Luke 10:25-37 both Jesus and an unnamed Jewish expert in the law agreed that "neighbour" obviously referred to a Samaritan. Hence Jesus' command to 'love your neighbour as youself' is clearly set within the context of a neighbour as one who belonged to a group that was intensely disliked by the Jews.