McDowell gone, good or bad? (Vote).

Tim Robbins

Well a disappointing day for me. He ignited my interest in politics about 15 years ago when I saw him in a debate with Claire McKeon and some other TV presenter. I was impressed, how blunt and knowledgable he was.
Now the Dail has lost one of its finest performers. I agree he was arrogant, but for me saying what you believe is far more important.

As much as everyone gives out about some of his legislation, I can't see any other party repealing any of it. A point that should be observed.

Mods, I was trying to put a simple yes or no poll on this thread, can't seem to do this.

Money Shot

Short answer - a very good thing in my opinion.

Heinrich

Tim Robbins wrote:

Well a disappointing day for me. He ignited my interest in politics about 15 years ago when I saw him in a debate with Claire McKeon and some other TV presenter. I was impressed, how blunt and knowledgable he was.
Now the Dail has lost one of its finest performers. I agree he was arrogant, but for me saying what you believe is far more important.

As much as everyone gives out about some of his legislation, I can't see any other party repealing any of it. A point that should be observed.

Damn! The Boards voting register has not sent me a voting card! I wanted to avail of my democratic right.:D

JerkyBoy

I'm glad he's gone.

He was scraping the barrel as a politician, spreading lies about opposition policies, no positive or progressive message of his own, and also staging ridiculous stunts around Bertie's finances which destoyed all credibility, flip-flopping so many times it was making people dizzy.

He was entertaining at times...but really the man was a joke...and as such was probably responsible for the liquidation of his party.

In summary: A divicive, manipulative, political bottom feeder we are probably better off without.

My €0.02

jhegarty

Heinrich wrote:

Damn! The Boards voting register has not sent me a voting card! I wanted to avail of my democratic right.:D

Strange, I had two votes...

wyndham

He achieved a lot in Justice such as the referendum that stemmed the tide of asylum seekers (John O'Donoghue was a disgrace in Justice), taking on the POA, pushing forward the new prison plans (even though they the amount paid for the site was scandalous), garda reserve, fireworks legislation,etc

He stepped on a lot of toes in the process and made few friends. The latest criminal justice bill was a step too far IMO. Particularly the removal of the right to remain silent and not have this construed as an admission of guilt.
It was time for him to go really. He has left his mark on the department in a big way.

Cyrus

JerkyBoy wrote:

I'm glad he's gone.

He was scraping the barrel as a politician, spreading lies about opposition policies, no positive or progressive message of his own, and also staging ridiculous stunts around Bertie's finances which destoyed all credibility, flip-flopping so many times it was making people dizzy.

He was entertaining at times...but really the man was a joke...and as such was probably responsible for the liquidation of his party.

In summary: A divicive, manipulative, political bottom feeder we are probably better off without.

My €0.02

a joke? michael mcdowell was one of the most intelligent politicians we have had in years. i am very upset he has gone, irish politics will indeed be diminished.

the strength of his convictions, his speed in responding to inadequacies in our legislation will not be seen again for some time.

probably not suited to party leadership as he alienated too many with his strong capitalist views, but again you can only admire a man who never tried to sugar coat his beliefs for general consumption.

if every politician spoke his mind like him the country would be a better place.

Attractive Nun

wyndham wrote:

It was time for him to go really. He has left his mark on the department in a big way.

I think that could be said for the PDs themselves, in a way. In a relatively short amount of time, they achieved to a great extent what they set out to in Irish politics. Their economic policies are for the most part now the status quo in this country. The church's influence on Irish politics has waned. And, although admittedly Bertie's financial dealings certainly raise some questions, the corruption that plagued Irish politics when the party was founded has dissipated somewhat. Whether we can thank the PDs for all this is another question, of course, but I think it's probably true to say that the PDs aren't as necessary as they once were. I voted PD in this election, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised or even particularly disappointed if the party remerged with Fianna Fail in the coming years.

Bad.

Bit like Joe Higgins getting dumped out. The Dail will be a less colourful place for their absence.

endplate

The Mr X case. McDowell's response I didn't know he was let out. The man didn't know what was going on in his own department. He's no loss. Gangland killing on the increase too

Cyrus

his department let mr x out???

and its his fault irish gangs are shooting each other, is it mr harneys fault when someone gets cancer or contracts HIV?

Jonathan

Bad day for us. Great day for organised crime

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

yomchi

I won't personalise it, I'm sorry for him that he lost, but Ireland can do without his politics, so its good that he's gone - performer or not, its not a circus.

Good for my political view points bad for politics as a whole IMHO

jjbrien

In my opion its a good thing hes gone. But he could have been given a little space when he lost his seat. I got made redundant once and I know what its like to loose a job. But he lost it in a very dramatic style.

Gosh

jjbrien wrote:

In my opion its a good thing hes gone. But he could have been given a little space when he lost his seat. I got made redundant once and I know what its like to loose a job. But he lost it in a very dramatic style.

And he was the only one to lose his seat ??? No, but he was the only one to use the occasion to 'cry like a baby' and resign - his other candidates were fighting a losing battle and he just ducks out - he could have waited until after the election today to make his statement - would have appeared more honourable ...

AidoCQS

jjbrien wrote:

In my opion its a good thing hes gone. But he could have been given a little space when he lost his seat. I got made redundant once and I know what its like to loose a job. But he lost it in a very dramatic style.

Yeo, there is a bloodport edge to this process that needs lookin at

Smarmore

Gosh wrote:

And he was the only one to lose his seat ??? No, but he was the only one to use the occasion to 'cry like a baby' and resign - his other candidates were fighting a losing battle and he just ducks out - he could have waited until after the election today to make his statement - would have appeared more honourable ...

Well said!! As usual he played up to the cameras. Tom Parlon was very unhappy about it. He was very open and honest with the reporters gathered around him while McDowell was creating a pantomime. The PDs might have been better with Parlon as their leader. All that rubbish McDowell went on about how much he loves Ireland was sickening. And then he stood outside the car for a minute or 2 waving to everybody. He looked like he was departing the country after being over on a royal visit.

Pherekydes

JerkyBoy wrote:

I'm glad he's gone.

He was scraping the barrel as a politician, spreading lies about opposition policies, no positive or progressive message of his own, and also staging ridiculous stunts around Bertie's finances which destoyed all credibility, flip-flopping so many times it was making people dizzy.

He was entertaining at times...but really the man was a joke...and as such was probably responsible for the liquidation of his party.

In summary: A divicive, manipulative, political bottom feeder we are probably better off without.

My €0.02

Thanks jerkyboy, you saved me 2 cents!

Victor Meldrew

jmccrohan wrote:

Bad day for us. Great day for organised crime

I don't think he was much cop (excuse the pun) as minister of justice. What did he really do that was constructive? He talked the talk , but beyond SF & IRA bashing it was just noise.

I'd have liked someone who actually represents those affected by crime to have the justice portfolio, they'd get a harder time of it and might do more.

Tim Robbins

Victor Meldrew wrote:

I don't think he was much cop (excuse the pun) as minister of justice. What did he really do that was constructive? He talked the talk , but beyond SF & IRA bashing it was just noise.

I'd have liked someone who actually represents those affected by crime to have the justice portfolio, they'd get a harder time of it and might do more.

He brought in a load of legislation. Have a look at it.

Cyrus

as opposed to a barrister who understands the law?

Colonel Sanders

I'll miss McDowell. i alwyas listened when he spoke and like most PDs said what he thought rather tham coming out with bullsh!t like Bertie (I'm a socialist for example). A lot will disagree with me but he's a loss to Irish politics.

Victor Meldrew

Tim Robbins wrote:

He brought in a load of legislation. Have a look at it.

Fair point, i'm not saying that he's not a brilliant legal mind and a hard worker, but Legislation is usless without gardai to enforce it and prison places for offenders. Tallaght has one Garda station for 90,000 people, I'm 5 miles from the garda station there. They are always on the N81, but seldom around the estates and industrial parks to catch anti social behavior, Same all over the country...

gonk

Tim Robbins wrote:

He brought in a load of legislation. Have a look at it.

Wonderful legislation like the law which requires telecoms providers to retain your phone call and mobile location data for 3 years and provide it to the Gardai on demand, if they suspect any crime, no matter how minor, has been committed?

Zebra3

I'm absolutely delighted McDowell has gone.

Irish politics has one hypocrite less now.

He said they'd be FF's watchdog in 2002, but when the it came to crunch, he hadn't got the bottle to pull the plug on the government. Too much money to lose?

He also was happy to slate people leaking info when it was against his agenda, but as Misiter for Injustice & Inequality, he was happy to leak info to the media when it suited his agenda.

Cyrus

and do you not think this might be a helpful thing in catching criminals?

like most laws if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Zebra3

So if they propose to put CCTV in your house you won't be bothered as you've nothing to hide?

Read Nineteeneightyfour.

AidoCQS

See the big problem with Barristers or Solicitors in Politics, is this...

Solicitors are trained to protect one side of a dispute, take one view and stick with it, defend it at all (usually somebody else's) costs. They do not ever have to move off that view because they have the luxury of presenting that view to a Judge who will then find middle ground between opposing arguments.

In politics you simply do not have that luxury... you never have that luxury unless you choose dictatorship or totalitarianism or something.

Voipjunkie

Tim Robbins wrote:

He brought in a load of legislation. Have a look at it.

How much of it did we actually need and how much of it was making it appear that he was doing something.


Good that he is gone

silvine

McDowell was a highly intelligent law maker who certainly had the courage of his convictions. His beliefs might not have been for everyone but he was certainly passionate and vocal about them. He did not care if his decisions harmed his popularity, something rare in a politician today.

McDowell had some great moments and certainly made many positive contributions to the state his party eg "Single Party Government? No thanks" and political debate e.g. flooring Gerry Adams in the debate.

'Mad Mullah' was not a great politician though and his arrogance and self-righteousness did not play well with the people - not that he gave ****. He also had a love/hate relationship with the media and the two delighted in feeding off each other.

I heard him on the Ray D'Arcy show, before the election, griping that people have a funny image of him living in a bunker under government buildings plotting a right wing domination of the county. He had an amusing tale about being asked by a Star photographer to point at something. He opened the paper the next day to see a photograph of himself photoshopped into a Nazi uniform with his gesture made out as a 'zeich heil!'

Stereotypes and intellect aside, bailing out on the PDs, the way he did, was not the hallmark of a great leader. Surely he should have stuck with the party in their hour of need instead of throwing all of his toys out of the pram.

The Irish political landscape will be a duller place without him but many will be glad to see him gone as evidenced by the Shinners singing "Cheerio, Cheerio" at the site of his resignation.

gonk

Cyrus wrote:

like most laws if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Ask the McBreartys and Frank Short if they feel this way . . .

DublinWriter

T'is feckin' great, pass the peanuts. Jaysus, weird weather lately or wha?

A Dub in Glasgo

Definitely a good day

vallo

Cyrus wrote:

and do you not think this might be a helpful thing in catching criminals?

like most laws if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

:eek:

As a courtesy to those of us with high blood pressure, please use the smilies to denote sarcasm ... you had me going there for a minute!

aequinoctium

we should consider just how boring the dáil will be now with his absence...

irish_bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gosh
And he was the only one to lose his seat ??? No, but he was the only one to use the occasion to 'cry like a baby' and resign - his other candidates were fighting a losing battle and he just ducks out - he could have waited until after the election today to make his statement - would have appeared more honourable ...


Well said!! As usual he played up to the cameras. Tom Parlon was very unhappy about it. He was very open and honest with the reporters gathered around him while McDowell was creating a pantomime. The PDs might have been better with Parlon as their leader. All that rubbish McDowell went on about how much he loves Ireland was sickening. And then he stood outside the car for a minute or 2 waving to everybody. He looked like he was departing the country after being over on a royal visit.



stuff parlon , that guy only got elected on the back of having been the leader of the irish farmers association , he does not have what it takes to be leader of any party and i always knew he would loose his seat

i thought mc dowells farwell speech was very touching

he was a disaster as leader of the pd,s because the man was a pr nightmare
as terry prone said , thier is this brilliant brain he has no sense when it comes to the way he puts himself across , i loved him as a minister , i loved the way he wasnt afraid to call the ira on this criminality when everyone else seemed to think they were sacred cows just because of the peace process but he was awfull in how he handled bertie gate , he marched his army up the hill twice and backed down again , by doing that he vexed FF voters of which the pd,s were relying on for transfers and he also lost the respect of non FF voters who saw him as a toothless tiger and thus they voted for FG or whoever , while i believe micheal mc dowell is a decent man , he could not do the baby kissing politican thing and came across as cold and this is a disastrous traint in a politician , he not only went down but took his party with him and as the PD philosophy has been fostered by both FF and FG and to a lesser extent the other partys now added to the fact that even the tradtionally conservative partys are now like modern ireland much more socially liberal , i think perhaps the pd,s are finished as an entity

history i believe will treat them and him well

Mad Finn

Attractive Nun wrote:

I think that could be said for the PDs themselves, in a way. In a relatively short amount of time, they achieved to a great extent what they set out to in Irish politics. Their economic policies are for the most part now the status quo in this country. The church's influence on Irish politics has waned. And, although admittedly Bertie's financial dealings certainly raise some questions, the corruption that plagued Irish politics when the party was founded has dissipated somewhat. Whether we can thank the PDs for all this is another question, of course, but I think it's probably true to say that the PDs aren't as necessary as they once were. I voted PD in this election, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised or even particularly disappointed if the party remerged with Fianna Fail in the coming years.

Hold on now. That's not what the PDs were set up to do. They were basically the wing of Fianna Fail that couldn't stomach Haughey any more and left to set up their own party. The right-wing economic policy was only bye the bye.

Was Harney a rabid right-winger in her Fianna Fail days? Or Molloy or even O'Malley for that matter?

Nope.

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

Liam Byrne

Personally, I'm sick of the PD's "privatise everything" and "shop around" stance, so I'm glad the PDs are dying off.

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

THAT aspect of the PDs is far from redundant, given the current controversies and the ongoing tribunals - Haughey wasn't the only rotten apple. But yeah, McDowell bottled it in the run-up to the election; he was entitled to give the benefit of the doubt to Bertie last November (innocent until proven guilty) but when it transpired that Bertie hadn't used the opportunity to tell the full truth, he should have hung Bertie and FF out to dry. So basically, 3 weeks ago, the watchdog lost its teeth and is now rightly put down as it's no longer doing its job. That's not to say that some new watchdog isn't required (it obviously is) but the PDs weren't doing it anymore, for some reason.

As for other aspects of Mr McDowell - I didn't always agree with him, but at least I always knew where he stood so I could make that observation. Too many of the other politicians twist, turn and lie in order to garner support.

McDowell cut through the bull**** with the IRA, and stopped Ahern giving in a few times; he also took some unpopular but necessary stances on other issues. Definitely, there were other stances/decisions that were iffy, but there are many idiots back in the Dáil after making stupid and costly decisions who didn't end up being kicked out.

If those idiots were also gone, I'd say fair enough, but since those idiots are back in, I'd say that McDowell, solely for the fact that you know where you stand with him, is a huge loss - he had his faults, but even with them was far better than most.

DublinWriter

Mad Finn wrote:

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

No. The PDs were the bastard child of a major schism in FF that had been brewing since the Arms trial days of 1970.

But there is a real need for a centerist alternative party in this country.

Step back from all the recent general-election hoo-ha and examine the idological differences between FF and FG. I challange anyone to really come up with anything that differentiates the two parties.

As far as I can see the only thing that differentiates FF from FG is a mutual hatred that stems from the Civil War. This is compounded by the fact that most of us on this island still seem to vote for whom our parents voted for.

It still makes me laugh the way people praise McDowell for 'getting tough' on the IRA when the whole Sinn Fein/IRA mechanism had been internally gearing down to go completely into the relm of consitutional politics for the previous ten years.

All McDowell did was so much posturing. Politicians such as Albert Reyonds, John Hume, David Trimble and even Bill Clinton really went out on a limb to bring us the peace we so much enjoy today.

McDowell was a egoist. As much as they tried to hide it from the media, there was a serious split between Harney and McDowell within the PDs. Harney had seen it all before in FF and to my assessment wasn't prepared to go through the same thing again.

Unlike McDowell, Harney had been in politics since she was a teenager and was probably too jaded after her time in FF to go around the whole leadership struggle merry-go-round again.

Ultimately, McDowell will be remembered for 'bursting' the party and sulkily scuttling away from the scene of the accident.

Liam Byrne

DublinWriter wrote:

It still makes me laugh the way people praise McDowell for 'getting tough' on the IRA when the whole Sinn Fein/IRA mechanism had been internally gearing down to go completely into the relm of consitutional politics for the previous ten years.

:eek: News to me - there were still lots of criminal and dodgy activities over those 10 years.

And if McDowell didn't "do" anything, there'd be no reason for SF supporters to be singing "Cheerio".......he must have had some impact, even if it were only for showing up Adams on the debate last week and making people wonder what they might be voting for.....actually, scratch that, since they couldn't vote for Adams even if they were that way inclined.....but you know what I mean.....

Just a pity McD didn't put the same effort into making Bertie-ites wonder what they were voting in as well.......

Húrin

McDowell was relatively genuine, and has done some good for Ireland in his time. But I voted against him because

1) in this campaign he spread lies about my preferred party, the Greens
2) the PDs are among the the forces that are Americanising Ireland and it has to stop.

those are my main reasons

ednwireland

DublinWriter wrote:

But there is a real need for a centerist alternative party in this country.

what another one ?
you can call the pd's alot of things but centerist i would have always classed them as far right in terms of economic (privatise everything no social safety net that sort of stuff) if they're not fair play but thats how they came across to me.

and as for creating loads of legislation so what little of it was enforced so it useless and pointless, legislaing in the dail seems to be an excuse for not doing anythin to me.

very good day for me we can do without politicians like him

daveirl

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Victor Meldrew

daveirl wrote:

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I get your point, but it's not "getting tough". So the justice minister demands that criminals stop being criminals, that's not being tough , that's doing his job. The fact that Blair and Bertie were willing to concede on every point that defines civilisation is a deeper issue.

daveirl

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El Stuntman

H&#250 wrote: »

2) the PDs are among the the forces that are Americanising Ireland and it has to stop.

open your eyes Hurin, this has already happened

this 'Americanisation' has brought us unprecedented wealth, does this also have to stop?

sorry for getting OT

Liam Byrne

Victor Meldrew wrote:

I get your point, but it's not "getting tough". So the justice minister demands that criminals stop being criminals, that's not being tough , that's doing his job. The fact that Blair and Bertie were willing to concede on every point that defines civilisation is a deeper issue.

Very very true.....which therefore implies that more politicians should have been like McDowell, no ? At least in this regard ?

He may not have done anything outstanding, but at the risk of repeating myself, the very fact that he "did his job" makes him a lot better than most of the gobdaws that have been voted back in....

The question should, of course, be why those idiots that didn't do their job managed to get back in.....

And yeah, some of that is due to the PD's privatisation/Americanisation policies.....like Noel Dempsey absolutely failing in his job in reigning in eircom, but the fact is that the FF/PDs shouldn't have sold eircom's lines into houses in the first place......

So McD will be missed, but PD policies won't.....

transylman

I remember after the 2002 elections, when Fine Gael experienced a mauling, McDowell said something like extremeise or die. ie The party would need to adopt an extreme left or right position if it wanted to survive. This seemed to be a policy that influenced all his decisions in the PD party. His manipulation of immigration issues, tax policy favouring the rich, his extreme hostility to Sinn Fein and his supposed toughness on crime were all examples of this.

Fortunately for the country this did not wash with the electorate and he is now responsible for almost single-handedly destroying the PDs.

Tim Robbins

transylman wrote:

I remember after the 2002 elections, when Fine Gael experienced a mauling, McDowell said something like extremeise or die. ie The party would need to adopt an extreme left or right position if it wanted to survive. This seemed to be a policy that influenced all his decisions in the PD party. His manipulation of immigration issues, tax policy favouring the rich, his extreme hostility to Sinn Fein and his supposed toughness on crime were all examples of this.

Fortunately for the country this did not wash with the electorate and he is now responsible for almost single-handedly destroying the PDs.

No offense, your argument is poor.
Let's have a closer look:
1. "Manipulation of immigration issues",
what manipulation? also you are begging the question, is manipulation good or bad?
2. "Tax policy" - McCreevy drove Tax policy followed by Cowen not McDowell.
McDowell was justice, Harney health and before that enterprise.
3. "extreme hostility to Sinn Fein?" Again you are begging the question, is that a good or bad thing? In my and many other people's opinion that is a good thing.
4. "Toughness on crime" - well have you had a look at the legislation over the last five years. There has been a rake of it all tough on crime. It would be impossible to get more legislation in than McDowell got.

The problem with McDowell is, for most people, (including yourself judging by that last post) politics is about perception.
You argument is based on your perception not good evidence or logic.
McDowell's PR is poor because he is more concerned with real issues than kissing babies and going to GAA matches.