Harney back in charge of Health?

JerkyBoy

If Bertie puts Mary Harney back in charge of health he will be dealing a slap in the face to the electorate who clearly rejected PD policies, evident by their liquidation as a party.

Harney herself barely scrapped through on the election.

To put her back in charge of Health, when it was the biggest grievance among voters, and when 98% of the electorate DO NOT support the PDs or their policies, would be an insult to us all.

I can understand why Bertie would do this though, since FF don't actually have a plan to fix the Health system, and would also rather not be holding that particular policital time-bomb when it goes off.

But to fob it off to a party with a miniscule mandate, who the people do not support, when it is the most important issue among voters is just political cowardace and shows weak leadership, not to mention a complete lack of concern for the welfare of the people, including FF's own voters.

is_that_so

Health is a poisoned chalice and it may well happen. Of the recent Ministers of Health she has been one of the most effective and has set about facing down one or two of the vested interests in there and deserves respect for that at least. She may also want to go back there. He could also use it to make his own ministers perform better - "Do it right or you're off to Health."

miles teg

JerkyBoy wrote:

...
To put her back in charge of Health, when it was the biggest grievance among voters, and when 98% of the electorate DO NOT support the PDs or their policies, would be an insult to us all.

I can understand why Bertie would do this...

I believe she did and will continue to do a good job... this coming from someone who works in the health sector. The health sector is full of red tape and bureaucracy. She's getting rid of a lot of that but it takes time to see results from that

JerkyBoy

Well I guess one thing to point out is that she is at least attempting to make some changes...whether they work for the better or not, time will tell.

And in fairness to her she is taking all the slack, 70% of which is not due to her.

Michael Martin, and Brian Cowan were in charge of health before her and left her with a complete mess.

They've gotten off scott free on this!
Pity the opposition didn't take them to task on FF's failure in Health.
Mary's troubles are their legacy.

The White Rose

Insted of saying that Harney was nearly eliminated because of the health portfolio, turn it around and say she survived because of the health portfolio.

Most people want her to continue as Health minister because they know she has the guts to carry thru unpalatable reforms

remember, this is the woman who abolished smoky fuel in Dublin in the face of unbelievable oppositon and lobbying. If you think this was a minor achievement, believe me it wasn't

JerkyBoy

The White Rose wrote:

Insted of saying that Harney was nearly eliminated because of the health portfolio, turn it around and say she survived because of the health portfolio.

Well that really is turning it around...

Look at the figures:
87.5% of people in her constituency did not give her their 1st preference vote.
98% of people nationally did not give her party their 1st preference vote.

That is not an endorsement of her as Health Minister and is an overwhelming rejection of her party's policies.

You can spin it anyway you want but the figures are not in her favour.

And I'm saying that's unfortunate, since the Health crisis was mismanaged by Cowan and Martin of FF, long before Mary attempted to fix it.
They got away scott-free and Mary took the hit. Even though she did try to do some good...

Stark

JerkyBoy wrote:

Look at the figures:
87.5% of people in her constituency did not give her their 1st preference vote.

12.5% did, which was the second highest % of the 1st preference vote for her constituency. Also, just because 87.5% of people didn't vote her No. 1, does not mean that 87.5% of people didn't support her. That figure doesn't include transfers.

JerkyBoy wrote:

98% of people nationally did not give her party their 1st preference vote.

A vote against her party, not against her. The fact that she was re-elected despite being a member of a hugely unpopular party in a country that tends to vote according to party politics, says a lot about what people feel about her personally.

JerkyBoy wrote:

You can spin it anyway you want but the figures are not in her favour.

:rolleyes: You're the one putting the spin on the figures I'm afraid. I notice the FG candidate in that constituency wasn't elected at all. Whatever about your skewed and biased view of things, the actual figures have selected Harney as a public representative chosen by the people.

Nuttzz

Spin these figures!! http://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2007&cons=85

look at the first preferences for brady

BoozyBabe

Some good my fcuking hole!!!!

Making it over an hours drive for a substantial amt of the population to get to A&E is NOT progress!!! Especially as we've had a very good service right on our doorstep for years!

She's a fcuking muppet, who as usual only cares about large numbers in Dublin, & the rest of us in rural areas are just forgotten.

Numerous people have died, it was proved they would've survived if the local A&E were allowed to admit them.
They weren't & the people didn't make it, dying on route on the hr long journey to the nearest hospital.

It's a bloody joke & if Bertie does keep her as minister after the population suggesting we want someone different, then it is a BIG insult!!!

Attractive Nun

Well, in fairness, that's simply the nature of our system. Any small party that forms part of a coalition is going to gain a disproportionate influence on the government. It could just as easily be the Green Party being given the environment minstry or education or something, even though you could say that their party platform has a similarly insignificant mandate. That's the drawback of a PR system. But, the fact is, that whatever combination of parties ends up in government, they will together have a democratic, majority mandate.

Admittedly, giving health to a party with only two seats is quite an extreme example of this, but don't paint it to be the scandal it isn't.

Keyzer

She'll be health minister no doubt, sure who else would want to deal with that pile of crap? No of bertie's boys will touch it with a barge pole...

miles teg

I'm seeing the word insulted a fair bit..
I'd rather insult people and have a good minister than a crap one just to make people happy
Bear in mind most people don't have knowledge of the inner workings of the health system.

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

I'm seeing the word insulted a fair bit..
I'd rather insult people and have a good minister than a crap one just to make people happy
Bear in mind most people don't have knowledge of the inner workings of the health system.

Judging by the mess it's in I would add Harney to that statement!

This smacks of the old antichrist who finally kicks the bucket and all the one's who hated his guts have to say is "He wasn't really a bad chap" just because he is dead.

JerkyBoy

Keyzer wrote:

No of bertie's boys will touch it with a barge pole...

That's true...they have no plan for it so maybe Mary is the right person.
I would have prefered to see FG\LAB take a stab at it but I guess Mary could be best of a bad bunch.

She inherited the disaster that was left to her by the previous FF Health ministers, Brian Cowan and Michael Martin.

Unfortunately the electorate rewarded them and punished Mary, when she was trying to fix what FF had broken.

She has FG\LAB to blame for that, as they never pointed out FF failures in Health and focused on PDs.
Not really fair when u think of it.

meanmachine3

What the hell did that thing do for the health services. In my opinion and i'd say most of the country's the service has actually got worse. ALL that cow wants is privatise this, privatise that. she doesn't give one damn about any of the electorate out there. unfortunately any visits she does make to big wigs kiss her big fat ass whenever she appears. she must be really thick to see that her party got a right kicking

miles teg

Heinrich wrote:

Judging by the mess it's in I would add Harney to that statement!

This smacks of the old antichrist who finally kicks the bucket and all the one's who hated his guts have to say is "He wasn't really a bad chap" just because he is dead.

Not sure if I understand you but ar eyou saying harney doesn't have a knowledge of the health system? If so, I'd ask what you know about it. I also believe myself to be more objective on the issue given i come from the health sector

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

Not sure if I understand you but ar eyou saying harney doesn't have a knowledge of the health system? If so, I'd ask what you know about it. I also believe myself to be more objective on the issue given i come from the health sector

Before we enter into any discourse, what do you do in the Health Sector?

Caryatnid

I really hope she stays in charge of health. She's the only minister with a pair of balls in that place.
And just to remind people - the health system was far from ideal before she became minister, not since. I don't believe there is any politician who could make it all perfect in a few years - overcoming the unions alone takes a huge amount of time, and that's before you try to even implement more 'radical' things.

miles teg

Heinrich wrote:

Before we enter into any discourse, what do you do in the Health Sector?

You'de make a good politician... answering a question with the same one reworded

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

You'de make a good politician... answering a question with the same one reworded

I'm flattered. Would I be Fianna Fail Fodder?

Now to get back on topic; we have a poster saying he/she is in the health sector. Now that could be a brain surgeon, nurse, recptionist in the dentist's, pharmacien, cleaner in a hospital, who knows. This does not necessarily mean that the person is knowledable on the issue.

miles teg

The topic is why Bertie would put Mary Harney back in health
I think whatever one's job might be in the health sector, they would as a result have a knowledge of that sector... I won't be giving out specific personal details about myself though

The White Rose

What the hell did that thing do for the health services. In my opinion and i'd say most of the country's the service has actually got worse. ALL that cow wants is privatise this, privatise that. she doesn't give one damn about any of the electorate out there. unfortunately any visits she does make to big wigs kiss her big fat ass whenever she appears. she must be really thick to see that her party got a right kicking

Once you resort to words like 'thing' and 'cow' to describe a female you've lost the argument

meanmachine3

meanmachine3 wrote:

ALL that cow wants is privatise this, privatise that. she doesn't give one damn about any of the electorate out there. unfortunately any visits she does make to big wigs kiss her big fat ass whenever she appears. she must be really thick to see that her party got a right kicking

Hmmmmmmm. It seems to me that you would be happier with an attractive minister than a good one. Or could you criticise her on her record rather than her demeanour?

As I would rather a FF/Green Coalition, I hope she rejoins FF and gets her portfolio.

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

The topic is why Bertie would put Mary Harney back in health
I think whatever one's job might be in the health sector, they would as a result have a knowledge of that sector... I won't be giving out specific personal details about myself though

Then don't qualify what you want to say with "I'm in the Health Sector".

Now back to Mary:

Bupa was a mess
A&E is a mess
The Mater project will be a mess
Cancer screening is a mess
Cystic Fibrosis is not even on the radar
Nursing Homes anyone?
Any progress on Leas Cross?

Harney's standard answer to queries is a referral to the HSE and theHSE's answer is the standard NOT COMMENTING ON INDIVIDUAL CASES. Buck passing.

endplate

It's funny how two of the toughest ministeries were run by PD TD's ie Health and justice. FF set them up as scapegoats to hide their own incompetence. I hope Harney goes back to Health she has the balls to take on the consultants

Gosh

endplate wrote:

It's funny how two of the toughest ministeries were run by PD TD's ie Health and justice. FF set them up as scapegoats to hide their own incompetence. I hope Harney goes back to Health she has the balls to take on the consultants

And let's not forget poor old Tom Parlon with the decentralisation nightmare ...

miles teg

Heinrich wrote:

Then don't qualify what you want to say with "I'm in the Health Sector".

Now back to Mary:

Bupa was a mess
A&E is a mess
The Mater project will be a mess
Cancer screening is a mess
Cystic Fibrosis is not even on the radar
Nursing Homes anyone?
Any progress on Leas Cross?

Harney's standard answer to queries is a referral to the HSE and theHSE's answer is the standard NOT COMMENTING ON INDIVIDUAL CASES. Buck passing.

I'm not trying to get into a grudge match with you but my statement said whatever one's role in the health sector is, they would have knowledge of that sector and on that basis I'm qualified to post an objective opinion.

From your listing of cancer screening as a bad thing, it's apparant you're talking through your ... sorry, not trying to make it personnal.
Breastcheck is the world's most advanced screening program in terms of the technology used in scanning. It's success rate could only be described as groundbreaking:
www.sectra.se/global/news/press_releases/medical/2007-2008/2007-05-07.html

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmmmm. It seems to me that you would be happier with an attractive minister than a good one. Or could you criticise her on her record rather than her demeanour?

As I would rather a FF/Green Coalition, I hope she rejoins FF and gets her portfolio.

Conor being an insider, what are the chances she will rejoin FF?
Would local cumman accept the PDs or are there too many local rivalries or too much bad blood?

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

Conor being an insider

You overestimate my importance!

Membership of the party is open to anyone. Would have thought Harney would be welcomed back with open arms. On the other hand, if someone like Parlon were to join and it was perceived that he was doing so solely to revive his career, think local cumainn and in particular those individuals with their own ambitions would fight it tooth and nail.

aequinoctium

as was said on The Week in Politics last night; she now knows the problems that need attention and what difficulties can arise. it would take another 2 years for any new minister to reach the level she is currently at. it's a good decision for her to stay on.

BoozyBabe

miles teg wrote:

Breastcheck is the world's most advanced screening program in terms of the technology used in scanning. It's success rate could only be described as groundbreaking:
www.sectra.se/global/news/press_releases/medical/2007-2008/2007-05-07.html

Yes, & depending on your postcode, you either get it, or you don't!!
Yes, a very fair system, as usual. :rolleyes:


& she's closing hospitals all around the country, making them little more than a GP's surgery, yet people are lying for days on hospital trollies in corridors, waiting years for critical operations, & then when their day arrives the op is cancelled due to no beds. Yet, there are lots of free beds & very competent staff in all the hospitals she's closed.

It's a bloody joke!!!
Unless you've money to go private in this country you won't stand a chance!!!

What about the piece of equipment (can't remem exactly what it was) that was privately donated to the Sligo regional hospital.
She took it & put it into a private Dublin hospital.
So again, her policies are:- if you're a culchie you can fcuk off!

Heinrich

BoozyBabe wrote:

Yes, & depending on your postcode, you either get it, or you don't!!
Yes, a very fair system, as usual. :rolleyes:

Where is this machine actually in operation?

What about cervical cancer screening?

miles teg

BoozyBabe wrote:

Yes, & depending on your postcode, you either get it, or you don't!!
Yes, a very fair system, as usual. :rolleyes:

I think any resonable person would accept the fact that a process of that magnitude takes time to implement properly. Anything worth doing takes time and effort. It's been 2 years since the national expansion of breastcheck started and it's virtually complete:
http://www.breastcheck.ie/about/history.html
2 years seems like a short period of time to me

Don't worry, your breasts will be safe from next year on

miles teg

Heinrich wrote:

Where is this machine actually in operation?

What about cervical cancer screening?

The "machine" is a number of mobile units and services locations in rotation.
I think in general, people should do some research before they make claims about various health services

BoozyBabe

miles teg wrote:

Don't worry, your breasts will be safe from next year on

That's not even remotely funny!!! :mad:

It's a big fcuking joke isn't it that 1/2 the bloody country haven't a clue if they're dying of breast cancer just because of their address. Yea, realy funny.

As it turns out, the area I'm in has breast screening. That doesn't make me any less annoyed for those who don't.

Plus, what's the actual age of when you're eligible for screening?

It's no where near young enough anyway.
I've had a few scares & I can tell you, I'm a long way away of being eligible for such screening.

I had to practically fight & then wait forever to be checked.

ednwireland

miles teg wrote:

I think any resonable person would accept the fact that a process of that magnitude takes time to implement properly. Anything worth doing takes time and effort. It's been 2 years since the national expansion of breastcheck started and it's virtually complete:
http://www.breastcheck.ie/about/history.html
2 years seems like a short period of time to me

Don't worry, your breasts will be safe from next year on

see the northwest doesn't get a mention as usual - sorry it does but with no specific timescale

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

The "machine" is a number of mobile units and services locations in rotation.
I think in general, people should do some research before they make claims about various health services

The "research" shows that the screening is available within certain areas and for a certain age group. Lots more to do, lots and lots. Now what is readily available for other forms of cancer screening? Prostate, cervical...

miles teg

BoozyBabe wrote:

That's not even remotely funny!!! :mad:

It's a big fcuking joke isn't it that 1/2 the bloody country haven't a clue if they're dying of breast cancer just because of their address. Yea, realy funny.

As it turns out, the area I'm in has breast screening. That doesn't make me any less annoyed for those who don't.

Plus, what's the actual age of when you're eligible for screening?

It's no where near young enough anyway.
I've had a few scares & I can tell you, I'm a long way away of being eligible for such screening.

I had to practically fight & then wait forever to be checked.

I'm sorry if i offended you... was trying to keep some lightheartedness in the discussion. Breastscreening is now national... everyone gets it.
Age eligibilty was determined based on research undertaken into breastcancer... there's no point in just making up some age to startt screening because it sounds good to the public... it's based on statistical likelyhood of developing it.

Bear in mind that screening is different than diagnosing. If you had a few scares, there's no point in you being screened

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

You overestimate my importance!

Membership of the party is open to anyone. Would have thought Harney would be welcomed back with open arms. On the other hand, if someone like Parlon were to join and it was perceived that he was doing so solely to revive his career, think local cumainn and in particular those individuals with their own ambitions would fight it tooth and nail.

I would have said it would depend on the local cumainn.
Maybe bad blood over who left and who stayed?
Was Parlon ever a member?
All I remember of him is IFA. I remember him in front of me at Jurys reception desk in Ballsbridge one evening. I should have kicked in the ars* then.
I know FF (or anyone in right mind) would have wanted McDowell. Very devisive individual I always thought.

meanmachine3

I couldn't care less if the wicked witch of the east or whoever she is got the health job as long as it's not someone from the politically dead party. this is just my own personal opinion but i cannot stand the site of any one from the P.D.'s.To me it's always been harney that ran the country for the last few years not bertie.
For those that would like to see harney back. Can you please tell me.
(1) What she has done for the health services? and
(2) How she has improved it?
i'm facinated to hear what you have to say

miles teg

Heinrich wrote:

The "research" shows that the screening is available within certain areas and for a certain age group. Lots more to do, lots and lots. Now what is readily available for other forms of cancer screening? Prostate, cervical...

Of course its for a certain age group... that's what screening involves. You wouldn't have a 2 month old girl screened for breastcancer.
Mobile units are rolled out over the country. What you're referring to is static units i.e. buildings such as the ones in Eccles street or in Merrion.

As I said in previous post, some research would be helpful before making claims.
I think this thread is also getting bogged down in specifics. I won't go into any other specific areas of health.
The main topic was if it's insulting to the irish public for Mary Harney to continue as health minister. I believe overall she is doing a good job... more successes than failures.
I would be happy to have her continue as health minister

Heinrich

miles teg wrote:

Of course its for a certain age group... that's what screening involves. You wouldn't have a 2 month old girl screened for breastcancer.
Mobile units are rolled out over the country. What you're referring to is static units i.e. buildings such as the ones in Eccles street or in Merrion.

As I said in previous post, some research would be helpful before making claims.
I think this thread is also getting bogged down in specifics. I won't go into any other specific areas of health.
The main topic was if it's insulting to the irish public for Mary Harney to continue as health minister. I believe overall she is doing a good job... more successes than failures.
I would be happy to have her continue as health minister

Whatever.

silvine

meanmachine3 wrote:

. Can you please tell me.
(1) What she has done for the health services? and
(2) How she has improved it?
i'm facinated to hear what you have to say

(1) Took on the consultants

(2) Implemented the National Treatment Purchase Fund, reducing waiting times for operations

(3) Dealt with the nursing home charges issues

(4) Reduced the Health Service's notorious red tape and bureacracy

(5) Volunteered for a job FF's Michael Martin described as political "Angola", when more attractive ministerial opportunities were on offer

(6) Introduced risk equalisation into the Irish healthcare market, saving the VHI ( a move upheld by the High Court)

(7) Pressed ahead with Children's hospital plans despite strong opposition from vested interests

Gosh

(1) Took on the consultants - hasn't resolved anything yet

(2) Implemented the National Treatment Purchase Fund, reducing waiting times for operations - sent people abroad for treatment as our own system can't handle it

(3) Dealt with the nursing home charges issues - I suspect most people still waiting for their compensation wouldn't see it as 'dealt' with

(4) Reduced the Health Service's notorious red tape and bureacracy - where's the evidence of this ?

(6) Introduced risk equalisation into the Irish healthcare market, saving the VHI ( a move upheld by the High Court) - forced a competitor out of the market

(7) Pressed ahead with Children's hospital plans despite strong opposition from vested interests - ???

The Insider

Heinrich wrote:

Whatever.

Great response.

I for one want Harney back in, through my own personal experiences I have seen an improvement in the health services. Had no private health care and injured my knee, before the National Treatment Purchase Fund the waiting times though public health care for the operation I needed was anything between 18 - 24 months.

Was on the waiting list for 3 months which entitled me to go through the purchase fund, was seen by the top orthopedic surgeon in the country, had my operation in the Mater private all under my public health care and within 4 months of contacting the purchase fund. Its a fantastic scheme and is a major improvement.

I have also been in A&E(in both Beaumount and the Mater public) in relation to some health problems my family and I have had on numerous occasions in the past 2 years. There has been a continuous improvement in the waiting times, indeed the last time I was in there I was seen to (including a number of tests, x-ray etc) within 2 hours.

She has stood up to the nurses and consultants and her plan to build private hospitals beside public ones will free up all the private beds that are currently in public hospitals.

Change in the Health sector will take years as its being in a bad state for decades, IMO if Harney gets another 5 years she will continue to improve it by leaps and bounds and I suspect history will look back favorably on Harney as the person who finally sorted out the health service mess.

silvine

Gosh wrote:

(1) Took on the consultants - hasn't resolved anything yet

A quick fix health solution? If there is one thing all the parties are agreed on it is that change in the health service is notoriously slow.

(2) Implemented the National Treatment Purchase Fund, reducing waiting times for operations - sent people abroad for treatment as our own system can't handle it

At least she did something positive, and it has reduced waiting times.Our own system might not be able to handle it at the moment but this relieves some of the pressure.

(3) Dealt with the nursing home charges issues - I suspect most people still waiting for their compensation wouldn't see it as 'dealt' with

The issue is now out in the open and being dealt with which is more than can be said for previous Health Ministers who ignored the elephant in the corner.

(4) Reduced the Health Service's notorious red tape and bureacracy - where's the evidence of this ?

Widely acknowledged.

(6) Introduced risk equalisation into the Irish healthcare market, saving the VHI ( a move upheld by the High Court) - forced a competitor out of the market

who were quickly replaced by the Quinn group.

(7) Pressed ahead with Children's hospital plans despite strong opposition from vested interests - ???
The building National Children's Hospital on the Mater site - a more controversial decision but she is certainly not courting popularity or avoiding the issue.

It is easy to attack any Minister of Health. I am not convinced they're is anyone who can do a better job. Are you name another more suitable alternative?

The White Rose

It is easy to attack any Minister of Health. I am not convinced they're is anyone who can do a better job. Are you name another more suitable alternative?

Jackie Healy-Rae?

Zaph

silvine wrote:

(4) Reduced the Health Service's notorious red tape and bureacracy

It may have been reduced, but not eliminated, and this is what's wrong with the health system, not who the current minister is. Money has been spent unwisely and the whole system is top heavy with administrative staff and it's the HSE, not the government, who are responsible for this. Sure, the government funds the HSE, but they can hardly just cut off the money until the HSE sorts itself out, can they? Harney inherited an antiquated and badly run health system and to be fair she's done probably as much as anyone could in the length of time she's been there. I'd love to see any other politician volunteering for a job that is political suicide. And no, I'm not a PD fan, I was as happy as everyone else to see them obliterated.

Gosh

silvine wrote:

It is easy to attack any Minister of Health. I am not convinced they're is anyone who can do a better job. Are you name another more suitable alternative?

Wasn't attacking her - was seeking clarification on your points. Don't think I've said she wasn't suitable and I can't think of an alternative so she probably is the best person to carry on - putting somebody else there will only slow progress down even further.

John_C

Heinrich wrote:

The "research" shows that the screening is available within certain areas and for a certain age group. Lots more to do, lots and lots. Now what is readily available for other forms of cancer screening? Prostate, cervical...

There's someone on these boards whose signature is a quote from George Orwell; "Half a loaf is the same as no bread.".

I think this is a pretty good example of the argument.

Stark

John_C wrote:

There's someone on these boards whose signature is a quote from George Orwell; "Half a loaf is the same as no bread.".

And up to now, I thought Orwell was an intelligent guy.