Help with shoulders

g-punkteffekt

Hi all. Ok so I have started surfing about once a week, I now live a 20 min walk from a surf beach which is pretty consistent with waves. I train in the gym all the time and thought I was fit until I tried paddling out in the sea on a board. My shoulders absolutely KILL me after paddling for like a minute or two, they get so knackered that I just have to give up after a few minutes and can't paddle out far to the good waves. I do shoulder exercises - dumbell press, lateral raises, seated bent over lateral raises. But I usually lift like 28kg x 6, 4 sets, or so. Would I have to do light weights high reps to get my shoulders conditioned for paddling out in the sea? Unfortunately I don't have access to a swimming pool here. It's funny because there are guys in their 40s/50s etc. who paddle out no problem, with beer bellies etc., and here's me thinking I'm superfit because I can run 10k and lift weights.

Hanley

Specificy is the name of the game here.

If you want to get better at paddling, then paddle.

Those guys have probably beeen doing it all their lives, that's why it's no problem to them. But if you asked them to do what you do in the gym they'd be a fish outta water (hi-o!!) and would probably be as bad there as your are at paddling.

Make sense?

g-punkteffekt

yes but as I'm not in the sea that often, what I wanted to know is if there would be a way of conditioning my shoulders to be able for paddling, without being in the water.

Reyman

You don't use your shoulders paddling (at least in any significant way). Build up your Lats and Pectorals. They are the driving muscles in a paddling action

t-ha

If his shoulders absolutely KILL him after a minute or two of it I'd be willing to bet he's involving them somewhat!

OP, I presume swimming is not an option? One exercise you can do if you have access to a sidey floor surface (like polished hard-wood) is get in a press-up position with your feet on a hand-towel or the lid of a paint-can or something and then walk forwards and backwards with your hands while sliding your feet along behind you. Failing that, try it with a gym-ball - put your chest on the ball and walk out with your hands until your feet are on it, then walk yourself back in again. I also think that you might benefit from high rep pull-ups or lat-pull downs. If it's your shoulders that are the weakest link then focus on their involvement when doing the exercises.

Oh, and yes it sounds like high reps are the way to go here.

Vegeta

While we are on the shoulder issue can I throw in a few questions

When doing any press like exercise I always feel the middle of my back (which is quite weak compared to others, crap at pull ups etc) is trying to bend and generally upsets my form.

Even doing seated presses this occurs, what should i do? Work on core strength (if so please suggest exercises for this) and lower weight for shoulder exercises until I feel my back is up to it??

Reyman

t-ha wrote:

If his shoulders absolutely KILL him after a minute or two of it I'd be willing to bet he's involving them somewhat!

I accept your point, but the shoulders are only used in the recovery part of the stroke, not in the actual paddling.

So to ask the OP where is the weakness occuring. Is it on the stroke or on the recovery part of the action ?

g-punkteffekt

well maybe it's the recovery I don't know, either way, it's DEFINITELY my shoulders that get knackered. I build up lats/shoulders as effectively as you can, but I can only do about 10 pullups at a time, which is decent enough. My lats don't get tired at all. Anyway I'll just have to try and go swimming more often, it's the only way. Thanks for your replies.

MA

Agree with Hanley. Lifting weights is COMPLETLY different to paddling, weights is more focused on strength, your looking to increase muscle power/speed...muscle fibers. explosive exercises could help with this, plyometrics etc- but ideally you just want to keep paddling, it wont take long to get used to it. You could jump on the cables and try some exercises that work the entire arm, to paddle your not just using your sholders your using just about every muscle including your back!

Jak

As a surfer and a lifter I can assure you that shoulder complaints are extremely common with new surfers. Hanley is more or less on the money with his point about specification.

All arrogance aside I would have very strong shoulders/lats/arms/chest - general upper body. However, when I started surfing or in the first couple of sessions of any new year, they would suffer when paddling out through messy breaks.

Surf paddling is a bit more variable than gym training and can require considerable endurance. 2 hours in the water twice a day over a weekend is a fair bit of work - don't be surprised if you get tired. Anyhow, I have been working on this for a while now and my advice would be divided into two parts.

1. Surf Part

a) Board positioning. The resistance the board faces will directly transfer into your muscles. Ensure you are centered on the board and learn to keep it steady and FLAT as you paddle out. Do not lie to far back - sinking tail will add drag - and do not lie to far forward - nose under the water is not great for water dynamics...

b) Right board. If your board is the wrong size for your build you will not get your positioning right. Don't progress to short boards until you have really got to grips with the mini-mal/longboard types - it's a different ball game.

c) Pick your spots. If surfing a beach break look for patterns and sets to allow yourself paddle out in less chop. Know when to 'sprint' to get past the line. If surfing a reef - ask a local if there is a rip - if there is - use it.

d) Learn to roll, turtle, duck dive etc. - no point wasting energy.

e) Practice, practice.

2. Training Part

a) Be cautious about focusing too much on lower rep ranges and heavy weight. Introduce endurance sets every other week at lighter weights. Build up the muscle familiarity with slow long haul resistance work.

b) I have added endurance sets on bench, incline bench, LPD and it all helps keep the muscles informed of what is expected of them.

c) Swim if you can - if you can't Row with the resistance shifted to upper body.

d) If you are surfing regularly be conscious of when you are putting in other weights sessions which may leave your muscles in pieces prior. Surfing is very physical and easily comparable to a session.

JAK

Vegeta

Jak wrote:

Surfing is very physical and easily comparable to a session.

JAK

Definitely agree here, was in San Diego 2 summers ago and surfed 2 days in row (da dum dish) and was in bits after it. My legs hurt from falling off and standing up all the time and my upper body was sore from rowing and pushing off the board.

I cant surf to save my life but its class exercise. loved it

eggie

You hould ty to increase your low resistance endurance rather than focusing on strength. i.e. Lower the weight you are pushing in the gym and increase the repetitions, also decrease intervals between sets.

hunnymonster

noob question. A few people have advocated reducing the time between sets in order to build endurance strength. At the moment I'm doing 4 sets of 12 on my various exercises. I use a weight that the first 12 feels ok, the second and 3rd more difficult and by then end of the 4th I can feel my form disappearing. For most moves it takes me about 90 seconds to do the set and I wait 60 seconds between sets. Is this too long? If so should I move to lighter weights or less reps as I will not be able to do the same with less rest. Thanks.

Hanley

I know in SuperTraining, Mel Stiff said that when you go to failure (or near failure) their tends to be a drop off of approx 10% each time. So say you fail on the first set of 12, you might only get 10 next time around, if you fail at that too expect another drop off of 10%...

For me, since I'm concerned with max strength I take as long as I need between sets, up to 5 mins and more at times. Hasn't been bad for muscle buidlign to me thus far... Don't know if the same can be said for endurance tho.

eggie

hunnymonster wrote:

noob question. A few people have advocated reducing the time between sets in order to build endurance strength. At the moment I'm doing 4 sets of 12 on my various exercises. I use a weight that the first 12 feels ok, the second and 3rd more difficult and by then end of the 4th I can feel my form disappearing. For most moves it takes me about 90 seconds to do the set and I wait 60 seconds between sets. Is this too long? If so should I move to lighter weights or less reps as I will not be able to do the same with less rest. Thanks.

For me, I will take no more than 30 secs between sets (if i'm super setting i'll go str8 form one exercise to the next and take maybe 60 secs) and do no less than 14 reps, lowering the weight and builing the reps to 18-20 for 4 sets of each exercise. 6-8 exercise per body part.

Some people say this burns muscle by over repping, i personally dont think so. It will not create size/strength gains my any means but it will increase endurance and fatigue levels. It will also not lower your strength, simply a different approach for different results.

Hanley

eggie wrote:

For me, I will take no more than 30 secs between sets (if i'm super setting i'll go str8 form one exercise to the next and take maybe 60 secs) and do no less than 14 reps, lowering the weight and builing the reps to 18-20 for 4 sets of each exercise. 6-8 exercise per body part.

Some people say this burns muscle by over repping, i personally dont think so. It will not create size/strength gains my any means but it will increase endurance and fatigue levels. It will also not lower your strength, simply a different approach for different results.

Good post.