Which govt do you think is best suited to implement Transport 21?

Irish and Proud

Now that the election is over and the votes almost counted, which coalition do you think is best suited regarding the implementation of Transport 21?

GBX

The government of Sodor ... there transport system is fantastic!

Transport21 Fan

FF and Greens would be the best option - but FF and PDs and Inds would be a safe bet too I think.

Fine Gael do not understand public transport, and Labour have been ordered by their pimp in Liberty Hall to destroy the Luas and Metro and look after the "daycent auld skins" and **** the commuters and taxpayers at any cost as long as they serve the CIE unions. Labour TDs are simply disgusted they never got the chance to screw the Irish commuter and taxpayer to serve the vested interests in the semi-state unions - but maybe in 5 years...

So any FF combo without Labour would be fine. With Labour might still be OK for T21 safety, but would be much harder.

Basically as long as Labour and the Semi-State unions are out of Government then Commuters stand a better chance. Once FF hold the power T21 is fairly safe.

FG would destroy T21 - especially Olivia Mitchell

SeanW

FF just hand the country over to the property developers and the rest of their gob****e buddies in their tent at the Galway Races.

T21 was an election manifesto. Now that the electorate has proven that its standards are dismally low, they can just sit on their ar*es for the next 5 years let the country go to rot further, do maybe a little bit to justify any faith by the electorate, and "announce" anything they do 10 times before they do it, or forget about it.

The rainbow would have had the Greens in it. But they want to do things like ban corportate donations, invest in public transport and actually plan urban areas properly instead of having (FF buddy) developer-led sprawl. This is the diametric opposite of FF.

FF/Greens won't happen. And T21 is history.

dermo88

Between us, Transport21Fan, we've both said that Fine Gael would be a disaster. Fianna Fail are much better, but they still have a pile of rotten faults.

Lets ask ourselves (honestly) where these faults lie.

Planning
Construction
Institutional Delays
Project Management
Budgeting
Implementation

And a whole lot more that are beyond the control of a transport minister, no matter how determined they are.

A transport minister is out to look good. Buying new rolling stock is a relatively quick fix. Building new rail tracks is a slower fix, taking years to get a result. By the time the rail tracks are laid, and in use, the minister responsible is not there to take the credit they deserve. Therefore, they will hold the carrot of "Heres the project, heres the plans, vote for me", and then when it comes around....."repeat as required"

Thats the way it has been in our lifetime.

I'd prefer the rotten faults of some action, than the rotten faults of rotten sleepers. Its not great, but it could be worse.

So we'll take Fianna Fail and the Greens, and see what happens.

Fianna Fail should tone down the crazier anti-road element in the Green Party.

The Green Party have very little experience in Government. Remember, a lot of policy is not dictated by voters. A lot more is decided in Heuston, Connolly and by a bunch of salaried secure pensionable beareauprats.

Verdict. Wait and see. Like before, on another forum, we'll keep this post linked for future reference at the next election.

D'Peoples Voice

SeanW wrote:

The rainbow would have had the Greens in it. But they want to do things like ban corportate donations, invest in public transport ....... opposite of FF.. And T21 is history.

Remember that for every EUR 1 of tax paid to the government,
0.71 euro cent is paid out to Health, Education, Justice and Social Welfare. The remaining 11 departments including transport(0.055 euro cent) only get to share 0.29 euro cent!

If the rainbow government got in, judging by their manifesto, that rate tot eh big four would increase to 0.82 euro cent in my opinion, so there would be NO transport21!

bk

The problem with the greens, is that they would probably get the transport ministry and they don't like roads, so the interurbans in T21 and Atlantic corridor might not get completed.

I don't know how anyone could want the hodge podge of FG, Lab, Greens, PD, + Inds
I mean talk about smacking of desperation for change for changes sake, They would be incredibly unstable and would quickly collapse.

I mean the PD's would want to privatise the buses and everything else, Labour would want to publicise the buses and everything else, the greens would want to scrap the buses * and FG haven't a clue what they want to do with public transport and probably couldn't control the squabbling of the others.

* of course that isn't true, just sounds good in the sentence, however the Greens want to scrap road development in favour of rail, but of course buses use roads.

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

Between us, Transport21Fan, we've both said that Fine Gael would be a disaster. Fianna Fail are much better, but they still have a pile of rotten faults.

Lets ask ourselves (honestly) where these faults lie.

Planning
Construction
Institutional Delays
Project Management
Budgeting
Implementation

And a whole lot more that are beyond the control of a transport minister, no matter how determined they are.

A transport minister is out to look good. Buying new rolling stock is a relatively quick fix. Building new rail tracks is a slower fix, taking years to get a result. By the time the rail tracks are laid, and in use, the minister responsible is not there to take the credit they deserve. Therefore, they will hold the carrot of "Heres the project, heres the plans, vote for me", and then when it comes around....."repeat as required"

Thats the way it has been in our lifetime.

I'd prefer the rotten faults of some action, than the rotten faults of rotten sleepers. Its not great, but it could be worse.

So we'll take Fianna Fail and the Greens, and see what happens.

Fianna Fail should tone down the crazier anti-road element in the Green Party.

The Green Party have very little experience in Government. Remember, a lot of policy is not dictated by voters. A lot more is decided in Heuston, Connolly and by a bunch of salaried secure pensionable beareauprats.

Verdict. Wait and see. Like before, on another forum, we'll keep this post linked for future reference at the next election.

The ideal combination for me would be FF/PD/Green. I like what Mary Harney is doing with the health service and I think she is a conviction politician and that's what we need more of in politics, not the kind of focus group nonsense like the laughable "contract" that Enda Kenny was churning out.

The Greens are also conviction politicians but what they lack is pragmatism. Maybe being in government might force the greens to grow up a bit. They've always been considered a fringe element, slightly eccentric and earnest and sometimes plain crazy. Being in government could give them a chance to prove to sceptics like me that the greens are able to deliver on their agenda without taking Ireland backwards.

Their stances on the US planes at Shannon and the M3 are just two examples of where the Greens have been too dogmatic, unwilling to see the bigger picture. If, however, their role in the government could be restricted to junior ministries in transport and environment I can see how their presence could be positive. I like a lot of what Eamon Ryan has to say. Ryan would be a much better leader of that party than Trevor.

A transport combo of Martin Cullen (pragmatic) and Eamon Ryan (pro-public transport) would be good for Ireland. It's fashionable to bash Martin Cullen but if you look at the facts and figures I can't see any minister in the last few decades who is doing more for public transport than him. Under his watch we have seen Transport 21 emerge - the amount of investment and projects that it features are quite unprecedented and it's important we don't mess around with changing ministers because it takes a long time before a ministers gets to grips with their brief.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

it's important we don't mess around with changing ministers because it takes a long time before a ministers gets to grips with their brief.

[I say this more as humour than as a jibe] Are they slow learners?

Irish and Proud

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Remember that for every EUR 1 of tax paid to the government,
0.71 euro cent is paid out to Health, Education, Justice and Social Welfare. The remaining 11 departments including transport(0.055 euro cent) only get to share 0.29 euro cent!

If the rainbow government got in, judging by their manifesto, that rate tot eh big four would increase to 0.82 euro cent in my opinion, so there would be NO transport21!

Indeed, especially with Labour in tow! If transport gets only 5.5% of the budget currently, it would be a pretty easy target for left wing politicians in light of an economic slowdown.

Irish and Proud

bk wrote:

The problem with the greens, is that they would probably get the transport ministry and they don't like roads, so the interurbans in T21 and Atlantic corridor might not get completed.

I don't think the above is a real concern - FF have a couple of viable options for coalition in government: 1) FF, PD, + Inds; 2) FF, Greens. FF will simply play these two potential partner blocks off each other. FF are deeply committed to the inter-urbans, so they're not going to let go too easily. Even if the Greens did get transport, FF could move roads back under the Dept. of Environment. Thirdly, a programme for government would be worked out, so FF would be damned if the inter-urbans weren't included - any minister (FF or Green or whatever) would have to honour such a programme.

bk wrote:

I don't know how anyone could want the hodge podge of FG, Lab, Greens, PD, + Inds
I mean talk about smacking of desperation for change for changes sake, They would be incredibly unstable and would quickly collapse.

If FG attempted such a coalition, it would be the biggest sham in the history of Irish politics. The only people who would go for such an option would be the ABFFs. After the demise of such a house of cards, either an alternative government involving FF would be formed in the same Dail, or an election would have to be called. If the latter occurred, FF would certainly get over 80 seats while FG would go back to 30+ seats. I just put that option up to see if anyone would go for it, and indeed 4 people have so far! :eek:

bk wrote:

I mean the PD's would want to privatise the buses and everything else, Labour would want to publicise the buses and everything else, the greens would want to scrap the buses * and FG haven't a clue what they want to do with public transport and probably couldn't control the squabbling of the others.

Bull’s-eye mate!

bk wrote:

* of course that isn't true, just sounds good in the sentence, however the Greens want to scrap road development in favour of rail, but of course buses use roads.

Well, if the motorways were built, the current routes could be reprioritised in favour of public transport - ie. traffic metering and bus gating etc.

I'll leave it there.

SeanW

Bertie has just announced that his preference is for FF+PDs+Ind.

Much like I thought, alien concepts like proper urban planning (instead of developer-buddy led sprawl) are just too much for FF*** to bear.

DerekP11

Its a bull**** question. Meaningless and rediculous. All it does is encourage yet more pro FF nonsense. Im astounded by the amount of brain washing many of you have succumbed to. Transport 21 is nothing. Doesn't exist in legislitive terms. It a brand with no product.

dowlingm

don't count out FF/Lab until the deals are done. FF/Lab would be far more stable numerically especially once a byelection or two whittled down the Government as they often do.

I think Bertie is treating Rabbitte mean to keep him keen - and even if he decides to go elsewhere Labour will be hobbled by the fact that FF are "so evil we'd go into government with them".

Going into govt with FF may be the only thing that saves Rabbitte's job as Leader.

Irish and Proud

DerekP11 wrote:

Its a bull**** question. Meaningless and rediculous. All it does is encourage yet more pro FF nonsense. Im astounded by the amount of brain washing many of you have succumbed to. Transport 21 is nothing. Doesn't exist in legislitive terms. It a brand with no product.

...and the ABFF campaign isn't brainwashing! :rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

DerekP11 wrote:

Its a bull**** question. Meaningless and rediculous. All it does is encourage yet more pro FF nonsense. Im astounded by the amount of brain washing many of you have succumbed to. Transport 21 is nothing. Doesn't exist in legislitive terms. It a brand with no product.

T21 is just about everything P11 wanted, so I do not see the problem. This last FF/PD government deserves credit for the money they have invested in rail. It's not a utopia, but it's fairly good considering how bad things used to be.

T21 is not enshrined in law, but so what. It's well and truly out there and should be supported as all things considered it's a dream come true compared to where we have come from.

T21 is the best we are ever going to get and we would be counterproductive in the extreme it we all started finding faults with it.

SeanW

Of course we all support Transport 21. The question is will the returned government, smug from scoring a hat trick after 10 years of maladminsitration, keep any of its election promises, one of which T21 was?

Metrobest

T21 is just about everything P11 wanted, so I do not see the problem. This last FF/PD government deserves credit for the money they have invested in rail. It's not a utopia, but it's fairly good considering how bad things used to be.

T21 is not enshrined in law, but so what. It's well and truly out there and should be supported as all things considered it's a dream come true compared to where we have come from.

T21 is the best we are ever going to get and we would be counterproductive in the extreme it we all started finding faults with it.

Thinking back to before T21 was announced we were all on this forum speculating about what would and would not be included. There were many bitter and twisted metro Vs interconnector arguments. It was put to me many times that the country "could only afford" one or the other; I always argued that Ireland could afford both and it appears that's what we're getting.

The focus should shift to making the government and its agencies - particularly Irish Rail - deliver this package. As others have pointed out Irish Rail are not doing a good job promoting the interconnector - most commuters have not even heard of it, while journalists are constantly describing it as a "heuston to Connolly" rail tunnel. How can Irish Rail stand by and let this happen? Sydney has a similar project to untangle its multi-line rail system called "Rail Clearways". Inside every carriage of every train there are big posters promoting the project, directing commuters to the website where they can find out how it will affect them. That's the kind of clear communication that's missing from the inept planners at Irish Rail and that's what makes the interconnector the weakest link in T21 family.

I think most of T21 will be delivered but Irish Rail has done nothing so far to win my confidence that it is capable of delivering a multi billion euro project. I'd rather the interconnector was hived off to the RPA as that agency is supposed to be in charge of new railway infrastructure and its work on MetroNorth so far has been impressive and slick.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

I always argued that Ireland could afford both and it appears that's what we're getting.

If you believed all the promises the current government have given us about public transport, you'd be a very happy person. Excuse the cynicism but I'll believe T21 when it's been delivered.

How can Irish Rail stand by and let this happen? Sydney has a similar project to untangle its multi-line rail system called "Rail Clearways". Inside every carriage of every train there are big posters promoting the project, directing commuters to the website where they can find out how it will affect them. That's the kind of clear communication that's missing from the inept planners at Irish Rail and that's what makes the interconnector the weakest link in T21 family.

It's weak because, under the current plans, it won't be built for another eight years. What's the point in advertising a project that far into the future? Do you think commuters care about anything that far away?

I think most of T21 will be delivered but Irish Rail has done nothing so far to win my confidence that it is capable of delivering a multi billion euro project. I'd rather the interconnector was hived off to the RPA as that agency is supposed to be in charge of new railway infrastructure and its work on MetroNorth so far has been impressive and slick.

It might interest you to know that all of IR's recent projects (including the Dart if you want to go that far back) were on time and on budget. There's absolutely no question of their ability to deliver big projects. IIC the only big project they failed to deliver was light rail, because of political interference.

On the other hand, if you said you questioned their ability to operate any network in a customer friendly manner, then yes I'd agree with you.

Irish and Proud wrote:

...and the ABFF campaign isn't brainwashing! :rolleyes:

It's not brain-washing. You come on here, days before an election, singing FFs praises while demonstrating a complete lack of understanding about the issues underneath and you think somehow we're the crazy ones for pointing out the flaws in that.

Our motorways are excellent, the Luas is great, the maynooth and northern lines have improved - you're not wrong there. On the other hand, the M50 is a disaster (the NRA have already said the upgrade won't keep pace with demand), the Dart is bursting at the seams, the Dash 1 project was a failure (almost none of the operating trains take advantage of the extended platforms despite what you might believe), the Luas was at capacity almost from the moment it opened (and can't be easily upgraded), the new Dublin to Cork trains aren't any faster at all (it's the same power car driving the new carriages - you fell for the paint job trick) and the current plan to upgrade line speed is a ten year plan, DB will openly say the bus lanes aren't helping because they're not great, they had delays activating some lanes because the PDs blocked their purchase of new buses, there's no bus priority through the city centre at all and no bus terminii in the city centre.

None of that is brain-washing, it's all fact and they're all problems that could have been fixed by FF inside a ten year time-frame and especially during a time when there was so much money in the economy. An economy which FF repeated tell us is doing great.

Transport21 Fan

Irish and Proud wrote:

...and the ABFF campaign isn't brainwashing! :rolleyes:

You mean Boyd-Barrett and his Poshies-with-Platitudes aren't the voice of the common man!

Oh my whole world has just fallen apart.

Transport21 Fan

Metrobest wrote:

As others have pointed out Irish Rail are not doing a good job promoting the interconnector -

This still gets me too. When I was a kid I can recall massive promotion of the Dublin Rail Plan for the original DART. They had a touring road show which travelled around Dublin and suburbs. They visited schools, had a big impressive stall at the Young Scientist Exhibition and so on.

IE management come across at times as if they are trying to sweep the Interconnector under the carpet.

I have heard Martin Cullen talk more on, and promote the Interconnector than any IE manager. Has there ever been one single information point on it at the Dublin termini explaining to commuters what it will mean to them?

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote:

DB will openly say the bus lanes aren't helping because they're not great, they had delays activating some lanes because the PDs blocked their purchase of new buses

Don't wish to be condescending but are you not aware that Olivia Mitchell of FG was also screaming for Privatisation of our buses years ago, so regardless which power block (FG/LAB OR FF/PD) was in power, we would have had the same problem.
Fact is, CIE were against privatisation of the railways, yet ask anyone who gets a luas and a DART regularly, which company has the best customer service - is it the state run company?
As far as I know - and I admit I don't know all of the PD's plans, but they had asked for private companies to be allowed to run new routes, that is, routes not currently operated by Dublin Bus - yes this argument was even ongoing under Mary o'Rourke. Dublin Bus said they wanted to be the ones to dictate WHO got which route and what each route would be. The private companies wanted an independent regulator. Hence we have a standoff - Dublin Bus will not ALLOW any NEW (previously unoperated) routes to be introduced by the private sector!
I guess we will agree to differ on who is responsible for new buses not being introduced.

markpb

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Don't wish to be condescending but are you not aware that Olivia Mitchell of FG was also screaming for Privatisation of our buses years ago, so regardless which power block (FG/LAB OR FF/PD) was in power, we would have had the same problem.

I'm not pro or anti-privatisation. I didn't even say privatisation was the problem. The inability of FF and PD to agree on a privatisation policy and then communicate that to DB hurt only the customer.

Fact is, CIE were against privatisation of the railways, yet ask anyone who gets a luas and a DART regularly, which company has the best customer service - is it the state run company?

I already said that in my post. I will freely admit that the Luas 'experience' is much better than on Dart / Irish Rail.

Dublin Bus will not ALLOW any NEW (previously unoperated) routes to be introduced by the private sector!

The ability for a state agency to say no to the government and block it's plans is just daft. DB should definitely have had a say in the matter, it does affect them and there's some argument to be had that in the absence of a DTA, they should be the people to lease and control the private routes.

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote:

The ability for a state agency to say no to the government and block it's plans is just daft. DB should definitely have had a say in the matter, it does affect them and there's some argument to be had that in the absence of a DTA, they should be the people to lease and control the private routes.

Have to agree but it looks like we could have a similar problem with the ESB over the transfer of ESB networks to Eirgrid! But that's for a different thread, just thought I'd throw it in here to show it happens in other areas also.

bk

SeanW wrote:

Of course we all support Transport 21. The question is will the returned government, smug from scoring a hat trick after 10 years of maladminsitration, keep any of its election promises, one of which T21 was?

I was recently looking at the T21 plan and I noticed something interesting, many of the projects are scheduled to complete on or before 2012. All the major roads projects, interurbans, M50 upgrade, Metro North, most of the new Luas lines, etc.

2012 is an important date, because it will be around then that the next election should be. That got me thinking that T21 will be to the next election, what the SSIA's were to the current election.

If the projects are completed in 2012 just before the election, it will make people feel good about the government, just like the SSIA's did and help them get re-elected (I'm not saying it will, just what the theory is).

The up side of this is that FF will really want T21 to be a success, so they will likely go all out to make it happen.

It certainly seems that all the roads projects will be completed, so that just leaves it to be seen if the rail projects will come in on time and budget.

Transport21 Fan

bk wrote:

If the projects are completed in 2012 just before the election, it will make people feel good about the government, just like the SSIA's did and help them get re-elected (I'm not saying it will, just what the theory is).

The up side of this is that FF will really want T21 to be a success, so they will likely go all out to make it happen.

YES and this is the reason why I support Transport21.

I don't care about Bertie or FF, but this is just basic survival instincts. We keep this shower in power and they HAVE to deliver before the next election.

This is why I voted for them. If FG or the Natural Law Party were in the same position they would have got my first preference vote too. Who cares if T21 is developer led if it gets us all these new metro and luas lines. I don't care - whatever it takes is better than being all superficially moral about it and getting a few extra Dublin Bus routes and nothing else. Social justice gets you jack ****. Developers get you Luas and Metro lines.

Thanks bk for summing it all up nicely. Transport21 is bigger than Bertie and Co and THEY put it out there so THEY have to deliver by next election. The comparison with the SSIA is a good one. This is why we would be mad not to keep pushing T21 delivery dates into Bertie and Co's face.

Use the devlopers money to get you metro and luas lines.

John R

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

As far as I know - and I admit I don't know all of the PD's plans, but they had asked for private companies to be allowed to run new routes, that is, routes not currently operated by Dublin Bus - yes this argument was even ongoing under Mary o'Rourke. Dublin Bus said they wanted to be the ones to dictate WHO got which route and what each route would be. The private companies wanted an independent regulator. Hence we have a standoff - Dublin Bus will not ALLOW any NEW (previously unoperated) routes to be introduced by the private sector!

That is complete rubbish. Dublin Bus have NO SAY in what services are run by private companies.

The truth is that private companies have been allowed to run new routes pretty much wherever they want for many years now under direct "licencing" from the DoT.

That there are so few is mainly down to the complete lack of proper governing from the bickering idiots of the FF/PD government.

Most of the small operators who have tried to run services have ended up pulling out as they were unable to turn a profit. The big multi-nationals have been unwilling to invest in a poor market with very high overheads, terrible operating conditions and a regulatory framework that is up in the air.

Meanwhile the only operator providing services to 95% of the city has been constantly blocked by central government from running new routes and improving curent ones.

Several years ago DB had offered to tender out some of their own routes to the private sector to be operated as part of their network. That plan was turned down flat.

A seperate overseeing authority was mooted (something we had years before for a very short time before a previous FF government scrapped it) and the usual barrage of reports and committees were set in motion only for a good deal of the recommendations to then be ignored. Instead another half-baked toothless authority with no funding to do anything productive is well on it's way to siphon off even more public money doing bugger all.

And the incompetent, corrupt FF merry-go-round keeps on spinning all the while the public get fobbed-off with third rate service.

But that's all good as it gave the self-serving gobsh!tes like Tom Morrissey an excuse to blame the service providers for not providing services his own colleagues had prevented them from providing.

John R

bk wrote:

I was recently looking at the T21 plan and I noticed something interesting, many of the projects are scheduled to complete on or before 2012. All the major roads projects, interurbans, M50 upgrade, Metro North, most of the new Luas lines, etc.

2012 is an important date, because it will be around then that the next election should be. That got me thinking that T21 will be to the next election, what the SSIA's were to the current election.

If the projects are completed in 2012 just before the election, it will make people feel good about the government, just like the SSIA's did and help them get re-elected (I'm not saying it will, just what the theory is).

The up side of this is that FF will really want T21 to be a success, so they will likely go all out to make it happen.

It certainly seems that all the roads projects will be completed, so that just leaves it to be seen if the rail projects will come in on time and budget.

It's a nice thought but the current election proved that it really doesn't work that way.

SSIA=money in people's pocket
T21=public services=Meh

If the failures of the current Gov to deal with Health and Crime wasn't a big enough incentive to stop them voting them back in there is no way failures in relatively low interest areas such as transport will have much effect.

Metrobest

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This still gets me too. When I was a kid I can recall massive promotion of the Dublin Rail Plan for the original DART. They had a touring road show which travelled around Dublin and suburbs. They visited schools, had a big impressive stall at the Young Scientist Exhibition and so on.

IE management come across at times as if they are trying to sweep the Interconnector under the carpet.

I have heard Martin Cullen talk more on, and promote the Interconnector than any IE manager. Has there ever been one single information point on it at the Dublin termini explaining to commuters what it will mean to them?

Exactly. And that bodes ill for the Intercon. What hope have we got of actually seeing it built if Irish Rail can't even get the basics right. Commuters should be able to log onto a website like interconnector.org and find out exactly what' this plan will mean for them. It's bizarre and disgraceful that the only information open to them, which may or may not be accurate, comes from Platform11. But it just typifies CIE's "make it up as we go along" attitude to planning.

I dispute strongly the suggestion made upthread that Irish Rail have somehow become master planners. While they have shown some knowledge of property development, their most recent big project, Dart Upgrade, came in one year late due to inept planning. The promised doubling of capacity did not materialise. Carriages were sent off to be fixed and seemed to slip off the radar. New trains and timetables were held up for months due to an IR dispute. Anyone who says Irish Rail are to be trusted to deliver a big project is showing either naivety or is a Labour and trade union movement luvvie.

And here's another threat to T21 that's not from Fianna Fail: it's the heritage industry. I am convinced that both the metro and interconnector are going to endure some serious delays due to a "save Tara" style campaign. It won't come to light until the metro is just about ready to be built. In the interconnector's case, protest will centre on the section of the route near Viking Dublin with protestors lighting candles and eating museli in the half-built tunnels.

Most of us here have knowledge of metro North and an idea of the level of disruption it will cause. We're also aware the one quarter of Stephen's Green will be cordoned off and several nice trees will have to go. That's what happens in every city when metros are built.

The Irish heritage industry, however, likes to wait until projects are actually signed off and ready to go before it starts to protest and hug the trees, just like it did with Glen of the Downs, Carrickmindnumbers and now Tara.

They will claim they never knew about the Stephen's Green plans, that the government hid it from the public, etc etc. And, mark my words, they will be chained legs akimbo to trees in Stephen's Green, Vincent Salafia and Muireann Ni Bhroilachain writing inane letters to newspapers rambling on about how we are destoying our green spaces while taxpayers will have to fork out hundreds of millions extra for the inevitable delays and legal challenges.

Victor

bk wrote:

I was recently looking at the T21 plan and I noticed something interesting, many of the projects are scheduled to complete on or before 2012. All the major roads projects, interurbans, M50 upgrade, Metro North, most of the new Luas lines, etc.

In part this is because its just a microwaving of previous plans. I wonder though for projects with a delivery date after 2012.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This still gets me too. When I was a kid I can recall massive promotion of the Dublin Rail Plan for the original DART. They had a touring road show which travelled around Dublin and suburbs. They visited schools, had a big impressive stall at the Young Scientist Exhibition and so on.

Ah, the 1970s, all talk and no show.

bk

Victor wrote:

Ah, the 1970s, all talk and no show.

True, but what worries me is "out of sight, out of mind".

I have no doubt that Metro North and Luas connection in the city centre will happen as they are such high visibility projects.

But with so few people knowing about the interconnector or it's importance, my fear is that it could be dropped or delayed without much public protest or anger.

Irish and Proud

For the record, the poll tally (30/05/07) is as follows:

08 votes - 24.24% for FF, PD, + Inds
14 votes - 42.42% for FF, Greens
03 votes - 09.09% for FF, Lab
01 votes - 03.03% for FF, SF, + Inds
07 votes - 21.21% for FG, Lab, Greens, PD, + Inds

Total votes so far = 33

When it comes to transport, the above record shows a very strong lead for the 'FF, Greens' combination - indeed, this is what I voted for too. 'FF, PD, + Inds' (my second preference) comes in a distant second, but the biggest shock is that the last option involving FG comes in not far behind in third place - bear in mind, this is from a transport perspective - what??? :eek: I had already said somewhere previously that this option was put in as a joke - how the hell could such a combination work - would it last even a month? - Well I certainly would doubt their stability prospects beyond December. However, over 78% of the vote would support a government involving FF, also from a transport perspective - well what a relief - phew!

So what about the Greens in government then? Well OK, they don't have much experience and the few of their policies are a bit off the mark, but giving them a go in government with FF might expose them to a few realities. At the same time, a green tinge in government might do no harm either, especially from a planning point of view. I'm almost certain that with FF at the helm, the inter-urban motorways would go ahead regardless, while roads such as the N11 upgrade, and AWC would also come to reality - oh, and most certainly, the M50 upgrade.

However, there would have to be some compromises too - more investment in public transport such as the metro. More funds would be required for this, so there might be a gradual slowdown in road development after the inter-urbans are complete. My biggest worry would for be the Dublin Rail Inter-connector! Also, the Dublin Eastern By-pass would probably find the scrap heap, but anyway, I don't think it would be money well spent in the short to medium term - maybe the funds could then be diverted to the inter-connector project, but the metro could still over-run and put pay to it! Remember, the Greens would like to see the metro connect with the Luas Green Line somewhere at Ranelagh and continue along the Luas line on a shared basis.

Of course, the last two paragraphs are just pure speculation and we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'll leave it there for now.

SeanW

I'm one of those 8. FF is the party of developers, sprawl and backhanders. They're totally incompatible with the Greens.

FF/Greens isn't happening. End of.

Bertie has stated his preference to go back into government with its right-wing mudflaps, the PDs, and a smattering of independent gobs****s like Beverly Cooper-Flynn.

Expect more of the same, all pro-car everything, more ham-fisted handling of the buses in Dublin situation and more urban sprawl.

markpb

SeanW wrote:

I'm one of those 8. FF is the party of developers, sprawl and backhanders. They're totally incompatible with the Greens.

FF/Greens isn't happening. End of.

One of the Greens main sticking points was an end to corporate donations to political parties. FF's response (printed in last weekend's Sunday Times):

We don't need lectures on political ethics

That says it all really.

Navan Junction

SeanW wrote:

FF is the party of developers, sprawl and backhanders. They're totally incompatible with the Greens.

But if FF and Labour don't do a deal, and the Independents say no, what next?

Fine Gael can't form a government with all of the other parties without including Sinn Féin (doubtful that SF would want to form a Government with FG anyhow), so it boils down to FF + who?

I take your points as above, but what happens next? I'd be surpised if it is anything else other than FF & Greens - with deals on ethics, the environment (inlc Planning etc) and transport..

I'm not sure there is an alternative - read the IT today about Bertie's problem with working with Tony Gregory's shopping list and multiply it by five

Navan Junction

And nearly forgot, I reckon that any combination without the Greens will be a disaster for public transport - at least they are serious about it

OTK

Navan Junction wrote:

But if FF and Labour don't do a deal, and the Independents say no, what next?

Which independents would say no?
All of them are either pro FF or openly available to purchase.

Metrobest

SeanW wrote:

I'm one of those 8. FF is the party of developers, sprawl and backhanders. They're totally incompatible with the Greens..

Sean, I hope you're aware that Fine Gael won a by election in Meath not so long ago by using posters with its candidate in front of a motorway, the M3.

Most planning issues are local, and all parties share the blame for bad decisions.

Zoney

A govt. with Greens would really be good for transport. Their larger partner isn't going to change the roads programme, and they would have to allow the Greens to prioritise public transport.

Grudaire

Well I think the Greens would be best for actual cycle lanes- rather then our current dead end, two feet cycle lanes, and since they'd have a bit more power in a rainbow, pity about the PD's and FF returning back with more roads.

Irish and Proud

SeanW wrote:

I'm one of those 8. FF is the party of developers, sprawl and backhanders. They're totally incompatible with the Greens.

The Greens have 6 seats, FF have 78 - one can guess that FF should be able to maintain the majority of its policies!

SeanW wrote:

FF/Greens isn't happening. End of.

Did I hear that Trevor Sargent was thinking of approaching FF?

SeanW wrote:

Bertie has stated his preference to go back into government with its right-wing mudflaps, the PDs, and a smattering of independent gobs****s like Beverly Cooper-Flynn.

That could be part of Bertie's game plan - play the PDs + Inds off against the Greens, thereby getting the best deal possible - after all, FF has a strong mandate!

SeanW wrote:

Expect more of the same, all pro-car everything, more ham-fisted handling of the buses in Dublin situation and more urban sprawl.

...which is why the Luas was built, several purpose built QBCs (ie. Nangor Road) provided, and new buses/trains commissioned etc... :rolleyes:

The NDP provided funds to frontload our roads programme in order to sustain our economy in the short to medium term (2007) - roads were generally cheaper and easier to plan than railways. However, NDP also provided for a medium to long term reduction in road funding to make way for major public transport projects (post 2007), as soon as the planning was sorted. However, planning delays and the 2001 economic blip complicated the NDPs timing. Remember Foot and Mouth, plus the WTC terrorist attacks of that year - the exchequer remained fairly tight until around 2004.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Navan Junction wrote:

Fine Gael can't form a government with all of the other parties without including Sinn Féin (doubtful that SF would want to form a Government with FG anyhow), so it boils down to FF + who?

Theoretically, FG can form a government without FF or SF :eek: , but that would require Labour, Greens, PD, + Inds (all 5 of them that is!) to bring Enda Kenny to the necessary 84 seats, as opposed to 81 + Ceann Comhairle (CC) for Bertie Ahern. With 4 Independents, it would seem like enough on strict calculation since the CC can't vote, but FF can sacrifice the position of CC to release Rory O' Hanlon's vote, thereby blocking Enda Kenny's alternative. Anyway, I doubt that Mary Harney of the PDs would want to be part of a house of cards coalition. Also, I can't see Beverly Cooper Flynn supporting Enda Kenny.

In short, I do agree that the shape of our next government will boil down to FF + who? I'll leave it there.

Bards

Irish and Proud wrote:

I'll leave it there.

as you always finish your posts with this phrase, can I ask you what you are leaving and where can I find it?:D

markpb

Bards wrote:

as you always finish your posts with this phrase, can I ask you what you are leaving and where can I find it?:D

I think he likes the idea of a signature but is horrified at the thought of people being able to turn it off.

Navan Junction

Irish and Proud wrote:

Also, I can't see Beverly Cooper Flynn supporting Enda Kenny.

But she can't afford to be seen to kill off the possability of a Mayo Taoiseach

Victor

Irish and Proud wrote:

I had already said somewhere previously that this option was put in as a joke - how the hell could such a combination work - would it last even a month?

It is a statisticly valid option. Anything else whould have seen the poll binned.

Cliste wrote:

Well I think the Greens would be best for actual cycle lanes-

Its not about cycle lanes. Its about a philosophy change resulting in modal change away fromt he car and towards walking, cycling and public transport. Cyclists don't care about km of cycle lane, they care about the number of junctions made safe.

Navan Junction wrote:

Fine Gael can't form a government with all of the other parties without including Sinn Féin (doubtful that SF would want to form a Government with FG anyhow)

They can. 166 less FF & SF = 84 seats. You only need 82/83.

Irish and Proud

Bards wrote:

as you always finish your posts with this phrase, can I ask you what you are leaving and where can I find it?:D

Oh, that's my imaginary bottom dollar on who'll be taoiseach after June 14th!

However if you do manage to find it, you can only have it after the 30th Dail convenes, and of course, provided that Enda Kenny is Taoiseach!

So, I'll leave it there!

Irish and Proud

Navan Junction wrote:

But she can't afford to be seen to kill off the possability of a Mayo Taoiseach

...but given that FF got only 25% of first preference votes in Mayo (FF's worst poll in 2007), a lot of Berverly Cooper Flynn's supporters would probably have originally voted for FF, and that they wouldn't be too pleased to see her helping out Enda Kenny and his FG party. I don't think county or regional loyalty cuts any ice in politics. Also, given that FG got 3 seats there, I doubt that very many of their supporters would have rated Berverly too highly - after all, they got 55% of the vote in the constituency. So 55% would have acquired FG at least 2 seats anyway, and then the transfers from Labour and the PDs etc would probably have helped towards earning them their third seat - I must check the count details on aertel.

I'll leave it there.

popebenny16

so how far off topic will this thread go? Sure you all gave up talking about T21 ages ago........

Navan Junction

OTK wrote:

Which independents would say no?

Finian McGrath - eg. over Shannon as he was saying on RTÉ the other day

Navan Junction

popebenny16 wrote:

so how far off topic will this thread go? Sure you all gave up talking about T21 ages ago........

T21 was always about politics anyway