Film Of The Week #20 - Pan's Labyrinth

Karl Hungus

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457430/

Absolutely astonishing film. I've been a fan of Guillermo del Toro's work now for some time, probably first taking notice of him after seeing The Devil's Backbone, and being thoroughly impressed.

But with Pan's Labyrinth, I think del Toro has finally got the critical acclaim he so rightly deserves. I'm not so sure if I think it's his best work, but it's definetly something that people have seemed to have latched onto, and it really is a fantastic film that had me utterly gripped and taken into it's world.

Discuss.

Gunther_Gloop

DOH -was wondering why the review thread for Pan's Labyrinth was closed, but there was an invitation to re-start it at the bottom with a new thread, so I did.

Anyway, not sure if it's ok to post it all in full again, but here's my take...

I have to say how great I think Pan's Labyrinth is -and why. I see the other PL thread is now locked, so...
It's kind of amazing how a film like this was made at all, I thought. I can imagine the execs & financiers being told one tale, but Del Toro twisting it ever-darker in reality ...a kind of mirror to the plot itself in fact.

One thing interested me that I didn't see discussed...
Why did the mother marry and have a baby with this man? Why did she 'make up' the story about how they first met?
Then it became obvious with a little thought (no doubt it was immediately obvious to many of you)... He had raped her. Maybe later she told him she was pregnant, or perhaps it was his intention all along just to make her pregnant so he could have a son.

To my mind the 'fantasy world' was just that -a fantasy, although it's fair enough to argue & to see it otherwise.
It's interesting to think that perhaps she later justified the 'real-life' events by explaining them with these fantasy-explanations in hindsight (eg. possibly she was looking back on these events in her own mind as she was 'dying', then explaining them to herself in light of this fantasy world she is half-dreaming).
That's a quite dark thought, but there is another, slightly different possibility... one that is even more grim I'm afraid (so if you're happy with PL being a nice fairy fantasy look away now)... that is that Ofelia was actually quite messed-up in the head all along.

Possibly, as these things were happening, she was actually believing them -she burrowed into the tree (with all its Alice in Wonderland, etc. symbolism) in her own little dream-world, while in reality perhaps she was scrabbling in the dirt -not necessarily deliberately messing up the dress so as to avoid the 'party'.

I don't think that everything in the fantasy world in this film necessarily has to have a corollary in the 'real' world (ie. figuring out what this or that represents), but there are clear paralells at times.

The interpretation of the story also (to my mind) has a parellel with religion... Do you believe the world can be so cruel? Is there more to it than this? If it is so inescapably harsh here, perhaps in 'another world' things really are better? Or maybe we should work-in and think-of this world alone, in order to make it a better place (if we can)?
Is religion nothing more than the desperate imaginings of people who cannot accept 'reality'?

The viewer must make up his/her own mind in this -and be happy with his/her own beliefs. Others can have vastly different opinions and we should allow them that too.


I have no doubt there's a lot more in there. Small things like the use of keys and the pocket watch (like the March Hare?) and the hands with eyes probably warrant more effort and further viewings.


...Oh and I just remembered to mention (leaving on a high-note... that again is very low)...
I have a transducer (bass shaker thingy) installed on a platform that the sofa is on here. When Ofelia climbed through the floor and slammed the 'door' shut underneath, the whole floor here BOUNCED and BANGED as that monster tried to get through. It was excellent. Best use of bass/transducer in a movie ever.



These are some of the reasons why I felt Pan's Labyrinth is an amazingly good film. I'm interested in reading other peoples' views on it (and welcome alternative views -with a movie like this, the great thing about it is 'there are no wrongs').
Please add some more to it than "I loved it" or "I thought it was a piling piece of crap"... tell us why.

RAIN

The Doctors demise was a scene so amazing it could have been in Laurence of Arabia.I was way too over hyped to watch this movie and it still rocked my world. I also loved the realisation of what was happening when the pages of the book exploded in red.What an imagination del toro has.wow 10/10

johnny_ultimate

Y'know as good as this film is, I can't help but feel it has been just a little over-rated. Don't get me wrong, some parts of the film are utterly marvellous - the Pale Man sequence was second only to 'that forest scene' in Children of Men last year. But for me I remember walking out of the cinema a little underwhelmed. I don't quite know why - perhaps I was disapointed the wonderful imagination scenes felt like an afterthought as the film progressed. Last week, I watched the superior Devil's Backbone, which I felt handled the Civil War story better as well.
That said, it remains superior to most. It's a thouroughly impressive, highly enjoyable adult fairy tale (all the more impressive when you compare it to the farce that was Terry Gilliam's attempt - Tideland) just for me, it just didn't reach the heights some critics said it did - perhaps for me, Pan's Labyrinth was a victim of hype over reality. Which is a shame.

Karl Hungus

johnny_ultimate wrote:

Y'know as good as this film is, I can't help but feel it has been just a little over-rated. Don't get me wrong, some parts of the film are utterly marvellous - the Pale Man sequence was second only to 'that forest scene' in Children of Men last year. But for me I remember walking out of the cinema a little underwhelmed. I don't quite know why - perhaps I was disapointed the wonderful imagination scenes felt like an afterthought as the film progressed. Last week, I watched the superior Devil's Backbone, which I felt handled the Civil War story better as well.
That said, it remains superior to most. It's a thouroughly impressive, highly enjoyable adult fairy tale (all the more impressive when you compare it to the farce that was Terry Gilliam's attempt - Tideland) just for me, it just didn't reach the heights some critics said it did - perhaps for me, Pan's Labyrinth was a victim of hype over reality. Which is a shame.

I don't know, I think it was really everything I could've hoped for. Some people do get that reaction from hype though, and I do understand, because it's happened to me a lot before, but I guess I've just learned to put my expectations aside when watching a film.

I'd be hard pressed to say that The Devil's Backbone is better though. On par maybe, I don't think either film is superior.

johnny_ultimate

Karl Hungus wrote:

I don't know, I think it was really everything I could've hoped for. Some people do get that reaction from hype though, and I do understand, because it's happened to me a lot before, but I guess I've just learned to put my expectations aside when watching a film.

I'd be hard pressed to say that The Devil's Backbone is better though. On par maybe, I don't think either film is superior.

I think in terms of structure at least TDB is a better film. My major problem with Pan's was that the fantasy story seemed to be left to the side in order to deal with the civil war story. TDB I felt better tied in the ghost story with the war fable that was going down, and effected the character's actions and the overall storyline to a much greater degree.

But you are totally right about putting expectations to the side. However, sometimes it is difficult not to get caught up in the hype / critic bandwagon - the Station Agent being another example of a film that IMO didn't live up to the critical love, but something like This is England really living up to it. Depends from film to film really.

Thats why I should really stay away from film boards

CrazyTalk

I had absolutely no idea what kind of film I was walking into when I went to see this, which is probably why I ended up loving it so much.
Although at times I felt that the villian was a bit OTT, i guess dark times called for dark measures from particular people.
But yeah, the imagination and visual style was excellent imo.

Karl Hungus

CrazyTalk wrote:

Although at times I felt that the villian was a bit OTT, i guess dark times called for dark measures from particular people.

Captain Vidal was one of the best villains I've seen in a very, very long time.

I think Hollywood goes too far trying to make the actions of bad guys understandable, give them a reason or justification for being on the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak. We very rarely see truly malevolant characters being portrayed in a lot of movies. Hollywood likes the conflicted baddie, the guy who's made a mistake.

Take for example, Frank Booth in Blue Velvet. I find he's probably the most realistic baddie I've ever seen, because of his actions in the film are never justified for the audience, he's just the kind of bastard who punches someone for looking at him. In real life, it's the proverbial Frank Booths who are the drug dealers, and the rapists, or the kind of guys who like to throw animals in bon fires for the pleasure of it, the guy who's amused by destruction and revels in violence. It's people who would hurt a stranger for no real reason who are the real monsters in the world.

And this is what makes Captain Vidal work so well, he's not conflicted, he's not had something happen to him to make him this way, he's just a bastard. An absolute bastard with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. This reflected in the scene where he kills the guys who were hunting rabbits, and the fact that he didn't even check their satchel to see if they were telling the truth is what makes it such an important scene; he didn't want their story to be true, he just wanted to kill them.

CrazyTalk

Fair enough :cool:

johnny_ultimate

I agree with Karl on the villain. One of my friends' major criticisms of the film was that the badguy was just to unlikable and one-dimensional. But this is the point. A fact that you cannot forget about this film is that it is a fairytale of sorts, just for adults. Criticising the badguy for a lack of dimension is like criticising the Queen in Snow White for having only the loosest of motivation, or saying that the old lady in the ginger bread house is just an unbelivable evil b***h.

Dont be at yourself

A real one-of-a-kind.

Adult fairytale is a very apt description of it. Watching the scene with the pale man for the first time is an experience that no other film came close to.

It's hard to put my finger on just why this film left such an impression on me. Almost everything about it was faultless - the performances by Ofelia and Vidal were captivating in their own different ways, the art direction, costume & set design were fantastic for both the real and fantastical settings, and it was superbly directed. Even the fact that it was in Spanish added an exotic, otherworldly flavour to the proceedings.

For my money, it was probably the best film of last year.

I later watched The Devil's Backbone, and while they obviously share common themes, tones and so on, Pan's Labyrinth is definitely the superior film in my mind.

Necronomicon

Deserved film of the week, anyone who hasn't seen The Devil's Backbone and liked this, make sure you get around to seeing it!

The only film of del Toro's I haven't seen now is Cronos, anyone know what it's like? I saw it in a box set with Pan's Labyrinth and Devil's Backbone but I have them so didn't want to shell out 30 odd euro for something I hadn't seen.

Karl Hungus

I wasn't all that impressed with Cronos. It's a decent film, and definetly worth seeing, as it's quite a unique film, and it shows the beginning of del Toro's style, but I do feel that he didn't really become a major creative force untill The Devil's Backbone. I mean, the imagination is there, but the film just really seemed to hint at something more.

Necronomicon

Hmmm thanks for the heads up, if I see it somewhere on the cheap I'll pick it up.

Going a bit OT, but while we're on Del Toro, looks like he's going down the road of the ghost-story again:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813981/

Sounds like The Devil's Backbone really. Maybe he felt the story would get a bigger audience after the success of Pan's Labyrinth.

Karl Hungus

Necromomicon wrote:

Hmmm thanks for the heads up, if I see it somewhere on the cheap I'll pick it up.

Going a bit OT, but while we're on Del Toro, looks like he's going down the road of the ghost-story again:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813981/

Sounds like The Devil's Backbone really. Maybe he felt the story would get a bigger audience after the success of Pan's Labyrinth.

I wouldn't say it sounds like The Devil's Backbone specifically, but more tied into the other films as a trilogy, thematically speaking, like Chan-wook Park's vengeance trilogy, except del Toro's being linked by the civil war theme.

missingtime

johnny_ultimate wrote:

... the old lady in the ginger bread house is just an unbelivable evil b***h.

LOL

nervous_twitch

This, and Eternal Sunshine, are my two favourite films of all time; I have watched PL countless amounts of times, and I'm noticing new things all the time. I too believe it is all fantasy, a sort of justification to Ofelias sad reality - but I like the idea that it is open to interpretation, and small things (like escaping from her guarded bedroom) are hard to explain without considering that the fantasy is perhaps real..

However, I disagree with you about the rape; this is post civil-war Spain, I think Ofelias mother just sought some sense of stabiltiy, perhaps a father figure for her daughter, and lets not forget that this is 1944, where women simply didnt have as much freedom of choice and being the submissive counterpart of a relationship was all too common. I didnt get the impression that the story about their meeting was fabricated?? (correct me if I'm wrong)

I thought the Pale Man was visually the scariest thing I'd seen in cinema for a long time, and yup, I would recommend that everyone give this one a go

Gunther_Gloop

nervous_twitch wrote:

However, I disagree with you about the rape; this is post civil-war Spain, I think Ofelias mother just sought some sense of stabiltiy, perhaps a father figure for her daughter, and lets not forget that this is 1944, where women simply didnt have as much freedom of choice and being the submissive counterpart of a relationship was all too common. I didnt get the impression that the story about their meeting was fabricated?? (correct me if I'm wrong)

I'll have to watch it again, but I got the distinct impression that they both paused, wondering what they should say. Then she began making up some 'silly romantic tale' type of thing that he dismisses outright, changing the subject.

Even if he was just showing his embarrassment (which I doubt he could), I can't see this guy ever wooing a woman in any way close to affection/intimacy.


But again, since it's not spelt out in the film, it's all conjecture, so open to interpretation. I'd like to hear other (more valid/believeable/provable?) views on that scene. ?

rahim

Gunther_Gloop wrote:

I'll have to watch it again, but I got the distinct impression that they both paused, wondering what they should say. Then she began making up some 'silly romantic tale' type of thing that he dismisses outright, changing the subject.

Even if he was just showing his embarrassment (which I doubt he could), I can't see this guy ever wooing a woman in any way close to affection/intimacy.


But again, since it's not spelt out in the film, it's all conjecture, so open to interpretation. I'd like to hear other (more valid/believeable/provable?) views on that scene. ?

The impression I got from this particular scene was that he was attempting to hide the fact that he could possibly have a 'softer side' or be in any way romantic. Given his position, and the company that he was in at the time, he would have had to appear completely 'masculine' for want of a better word, showing no signs of compassion. Again, this is just the impression I got, and a lot of the film is open to interpretation, which is one reason it's so good.

Also, what a film.

Boston

I saw this film without any hype solely based on the fact it was a film of the week. This film is so unbelievably solid, tragic and griping. Its absolutely heart breaking. Hollywood would have never made this film and its all the better for it. The criticisms of the films are extremely weak. It wasn't a spanish civil war film dedicated to showing that "war is hell". It was a film about a child perception of the horrible things that are happening around her, and how she escaped for it, into her own mind. I don't really know how anyone could suggest the fantasy theme in the film was and after thought or second runner to the civil war line, the two stories run in parallel and finally come together in the final scenes. This film is utterly amazing.

Basq

Fantastic film...

I haven't watched it since i first saw it, and was utterfly immersed in it. Only this and 'Children Of Men' really caught me in this way in the cinemas last year.

Ivana Bacquero is wonderful, as is Doug Jones.. a solid cast, wonderful direction and just fine storytelling make this an inevitable FoTW.

What about 'Children Of Men' next?!

PS - for anyone who hasn't seen it, 'Pan's Labyrinth' is available for E7.99 at Play.com, so you've no excuse at that price!

Karl Hungus

Boston wrote:

I saw this film without any hype solely based on the fact it was a film of the week.

Excellent. I'm glad you liked the film, and that the Film Of The Week is making a good impact.

l3rian

dont watch this if you dont like kids fairy tale movies

The Denouncer

Originally posted by l3rian
dont watch this if you dont like kids fairy tale movies

But its not a kids movie by any means. Not by a long shot. But I know what you mean.
It is a classic of modern cinema though.

Boston

l3rian wrote:

dont watch this if you dont like kids fairy tale movies

Thats completely disingenuous. I've never liked fantasy films with princesses and fairies and all the rest, but again, as with the civil war sub-plot, thats really not the point of the film. There's huge depth to this film and the fantasy world is just a device used within it. This is nothing like any kids fairy tale movie, and one wonders if you've seen it. The brutality of this film is shockingly disturbing. There is a scene where a man's face is smashed in with the butt of a bottle, come on. Fairly tales are just one theme of this film and to just throw it in with the likes of say never ending story or labyrinth is simply wrong. This is an extremely adult film.

Deliverance

Amazing and brilliant film, the ending was ambiguos and was really sad. The effects were astounding and the story changed and turned in so many wrong ways, like a childs imgination? Brilliant, sad and a good representaion of reality mixed with fantasy. This movie deserves classic status.

stereoroid

After buying the DVD a few months ago, I finally watched this for the first time last night. I'm still a bit shaken. I see what people mean when they talk about the ambiguity of the happy ending:

On the one hand, it was no surprise that Ofelia died, since it was foreshadowed at the very start, but the way she died was brutal: shot in the guts by her new stepfather. This was the person who was now primarily responsible for her, after her mother died, but she was obviously a burden he did not want. He didn't want her mother either - he clearly says, at one point, is that he was only interested in a son, and he killed the doctor just when he could have saved the mother's life. (He got the son he wanted, but not for long.) Ofelia was unwanted, and would have suffered tremendously had she lived - so, her death was a release from all that.

I thought the "Pale Man" set piece was OK, but not actually that important compared to everything else going on. It's now strange to see people here praising that scene and dismissing the rest of the film.

The extra emotional "kick" I got from this firm was its context in history. It's not a spoiler to report that the anti-fascist rebels were never a serious threat to Franco, and he ruled Spain until 1975. The wave of liberation from Fascism did not reach Spain until 30 years after the end of World War II.

I'll have to watch it again, just not yet. That business with the Mandrake root was just weird... was it real, or not?

Karl Hungus

stereoroid wrote: »

I thought the "Pale Man" set piece was OK, but not actually that important compared to everything else going on. It's now strange to see people here praising that scene and dismissing the rest of the film.

Ah come on now! That entire scene was steeped in symbolism, and can be quite pivotal depending on how you read it.

superconor

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

My major problem with Pan's was that the fantasy story seemed to be left to the side in order to deal with the civil war story.

I don't have time to elabrate on this now, as I am trying to research for a paper on this film, but I though the opposite - the Civil War was a backgroud to the fairytale.

pwd

I was disappointed by it myself. Found it a bit dour and a bit boring, and it was not as imaginative as I thought it would be. I did like the eye-hand guy though. I might have enjoyed it more if I didn't have preconceptions about it -- I had expected it to be superb from what I had heard about it and I didn't expect it to be dark. I can see why people liked it anyway.

i liked it but many people don't.. its only filmlovers, like you see in a films forum that see whats brilliant about it. readin this thread makes me wana watch it later..

CrazyTalk

Has anyone seen the two disc DVD edition around? I've only ever seen the 1 disc in the Blanch centre near me.

james1234

pwd wrote: »

I was disappointed by it myself. Found it a bit dour and a bit boring, and it was not as imaginative as I thought it would be. I did like the eye-hand guy though. I might have enjoyed it more if I didn't have preconceptions about it -- I had expected it to be superb from what I had heard about it and I didn't expect it to be dark. I can see why people liked it anyway.

"didn't expext it to be dark" it was based around the Spanish Civil War, a very dark moment in history for anyone involved!

I thought it was great, seen it a few times already and would see it again, a great xmas movie, got a bit of everything in it, fantasy, terror, history, drama...

cgf

On FilmFour @ the moment - started at 9

Otis Driftwood

CrazyTalk wrote: »

Has anyone seen the two disc DVD edition around? I've only ever seen the 1 disc in the Blanch centre near me.

Think I saw it in HMV Grafton Street last week.Shouldnt be too hard to find.
Below is the best release of it(IMO)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PANS-LABYRINTH-VERY-RARE-LTD-SPECIAL-EDITION-in-UK_W0QQitemZ290277794908QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CDsDVDs_DVDs_DVDs_GL?hash=item290277794908&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1297%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

The photos dont do it justice.It is gorgeous.Only down side is that there are no english subs on the extras disc but the packaging and sketchbook are so beautiful they make up for it.

Basq

Bought it on Blu-Ray last week.. haven't watched it yet!

Definitely looking forward to it over the Christmas though.

Dirk_Diggler

The Fall >>>>>>>>>> Pan's Labyrinth

Basq

Dirk_Diggler wrote: »

The Fall >>>>>>>>>> Pan's Labyrinth

Really?

I thought The Fall was all style.. with not a whole lot of substance. But each to their own I suppose.

johnny_ultimate

Dirk_Diggler wrote: »

The Fall >>>>>>>>>> Pan's Labyrinth

In visual terms, yes. But otherwise it came across as pretentious (lol at the part where the soundtrack matches the dialogue - cringeworthy). A treat for your eyes, but Pan's Labyrinth is a far more rounded film.

Dirk_Diggler

How is it prententious? That word is thrown about a lot these days for no reason usually.

bnt

These days "pretentious" is a compliment, it sometimes seems to me. If someone has artistic pretensions, and aspires to make works that engage an audience's imagination, they're "pretentious". Well, they can just wait for the next Mike Leigh or Ken Loach "socialist realism" pic. :rolleyes:

johnny_ultimate

Dirk_Diggler wrote: »

How is it prententious? That word is thrown about a lot these days for no reason usually.

I usually try not to use the word pretentious, but the Fall is one film that took itself far too seriously. The aforementioned dialogue / soundtrack scene, ridiculous but straight-played scenes like the

death of the moneky

spring to mind as awful attempts to be artistic. Again, I can't fault the art direction in bits like the chandelier rising, or the jump cut from the face to the desert - those moments were really breathtaking. And I have to applaud the director for trying something different. But other than that I just found it to be a little grating. Maybe pretentious is the wrong word, but I really think it came across as a little self important at times. Worth a watch, but the characters and narrative were too cold for my liking.

bnt wrote:

These days "pretentious" is a compliment, it sometimes seems to me. If someone has artistic pretensions, and aspires to make works that engage an audience's imagination, they're "pretentious". Well, they can just wait for the next Mike Leigh or Ken Loach "socialist realism" pic.

Ah yes, the old roll eyes smilie. Yes, the Fall is a very imaginative work,which I applaud. But it is equally open to criticism as anything else. Just because it is artistic does not mean it should immediately be a masterpiece. Pan's Labyrinth is equally flawed I found, but found its story to be better realised and more engrossing, even if it lacked the constant visual assault of The Fall. They are both good and different films, but if I had to choose one to watch Pan's Labyrinth is more watchable and engrossing despite some minor problems. No need to be sarcastic - I love inventive and imaginative films too. The Fall though, is flawed as it is notable, and don't think it should be forgiven for some of the weaker moments.

abouttobebanned

i was in xtravision today and a woman came up to ask for this film. They said they didn't have it. She told me she had walked up and down the town to try and find this for her daughter for xmas and had no luck. I watched it, liked it, but won't be watching it again so i'm giving it to her. pay it forward lol