protest vote: spoil or don't bother?

one-angry-dwarf

Having done some research on the candidates in my area, i can safely say that i feel absolutely none of them represent me and as such i don't think that voting for the 'least worst' candidate is a good idea. Aside from that i don't feel that ticking a box every few years and hoping for the best is in any way real democracy.

My options now are to either not bother voting at all, or to go along and spoil my vote. But are either of these options actually effective in registering as any kind of protest? Aren't most spoiled votes put down to mistakes? And isn't a low voter turnout put down to apathy? Is there any real way to register a protest vote? Do you think there should be a 'protest vote' box on the ballot slip?

Pherekydes

Who or what are you protesting against?

one-angry-dwarf

one-angry-dwarf wrote:

... i don't feel that ticking a box every few years and hoping for the best is in any way real democracy.

.

AidoCQS

Go ahead spoil your vote, then jump on a plane down to Zimbabwe's, President Mugabe LOVES people like you. You might even see people who have a right to be angry dwarf's

shay_562

'Cause nothing wins an argument like throwing out a Mugabe reference. Or comparing something to the Holocaust. :rolleyes:

I'd say spoil it. Add an extra box on the bottom and vote for Mr. Tayto or "None of the above" or some such. People not turning out at all is generally put down to apathy; spoils are partially put down to error, but at least your vote will have done something and will be counted in some way.

smashey

You don't want to vote? Then don't. Why waste the time going to the polling station if you are going to spoil your vote?

3greenrizla's

spoil it - vote for dustin the turkey
or just put in an empty slip.

jhegarty

Spoil it , proves your not just lazy..

AidoCQS

shay_562 wrote:

'Cause nothing wins an argument like throwing out a Mugabe reference. Or comparing something to the Holocaust. :rolleyes:

I'd say spoil it. Add an extra box on the bottom and vote for Mr. Tayto or "None of the above" or some such. People not turning out at all is generally put down to apathy; spoils are partially put down to error, but at least your vote will have done something and will be counted in some way.

It was not ment to be unspeak but a fact that votes have value. In some parts of this world that value extends to peoples lives. You dont have to go as far as Arfica either, just ask your grandparents.

Look its no wonder the same stooges get in all the time. I am looking out the window here, I live right next door to a polling station, its old timer, after old timer, after old timer. And you can bet your bottom dollar who they are voting for - conservative government. Dwarfy is looking for change, well he wont get it unless he at least voids one of those votes.

Dave!

Just stay at home. Spoiling your vote does not register a protest at all. It goes in the same pile as the old women who add an extra box for de Valera.

Don't bother.

BTW, do many countries have a 'none of the above' option on their ballot papers?

upmeath

If you have a message you want to be heard, write on your ballot paper telling off the parties you want to tell off. If it's just that you don't feel you're getting any value for your vote because no party/candidate appeals to you, run independent in the next GE.

Dave!

upmeath wrote:

If you have a message you want to be heard, write on your ballot paper telling off the parties you want to tell off.

Why? So that you register your disapproval with the vote counters? Nobody else will be seeing them!

upmeath

DaveMcG wrote:

Why? So that you register your disapproval with the vote counters? Nobody else will be seeing them!

According to other posters in this forum, the Returning Officer must validate all spoilt votes, and he/she will more than likely have tallymen looking over his/her shoulder as they do so, meaning somebody pretty high up in the party in question is going to see why that voter feels disaffected, perhaps over their stance on some important local issue. And who knows, maybe if they see a couple dozen spoilt votes with the same angry messages on them they'll cop on a bit.

Eg. "Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

AidoCQS

upmeath wrote:

According to other posters in this forum, the Returning Officer must validate all spoilt votes, and he/she will more than likely have tallymen looking over his/her shoulder as they do so, meaning somebody pretty high up in the party in question is going to see why that voter feels disaffected, perhaps over their stance on some important local issue. And who knows, maybe if they see a couple dozen spoilt votes with the same angry messages on them they'll cop on a bit.

Eg. "Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

No dont vote, scribble your little messages on the big people's stationary. Politicians dont want people like you voting, you are too unpredictable. Do you notice why there are no election posters in the poorer neighbourhood's, they dont want them to know there is an election on. Do you know why they use that language you dont like or understand, they dont want you to understand. Your message will be so funny when the clerk grade counter reads it (for the umpteenth time). Funnier still will be when you are paying the salaries, with your taxes, of the people the old timers (long since deseased) have put in power.

Look the fact your on this site shows you are thinking alot more than your statements suggest. Get out there and vote, if not just to p1ss off one of the old timers who came into town for the first time this year to vote.

Voting is not just about electing people, its about being heard, so that next time they speak, they will speak to you.

Gobán Saor

upmeath wrote:

According to other posters in this forum, the Returning Officer must validate all spoilt votes, and he/she will more than likely have tallymen looking over his/her shoulder as they do so, meaning somebody pretty high up in the party in question is going to see why that voter feels disaffected, perhaps over their stance on some important local issue. And who knows, maybe if they see a couple dozen spoilt votes with the same angry messages on them they'll cop on a bit.

Eg. "Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

That's true, but wouldn't you achieve an even better result by voting against him and then writing to him as follows:

"Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate which went to your rival, Ms FG/Lab/Green/SF, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

The big parties compile detailed tallies of votes from each ballot box so local trends will be spotted.

The_Minister

I always see spoilt votes as a sign of stupidity.

flogen

The_Minister wrote:

I always see spoilt votes as a sign of stupidity.

Such a generalisation in itself is equally stupid.

I've always felt we should have a "none of the above" on the ballot sheet because I'm sure many spoiled votes are in fact protest votes.

Frankly, it doesn't make a jot of difference if your picking between spoiling your vote or not voting at all. The former will be put down to error and any comment you make on it won't be seen by anyone other than the counter and the latter will be put down to apathy or laziness.

So it's your call, really, because no-one will hear your protest either way. That said, if you also believe that a Thursday polling day was a bad idea you should just not turn up - that way you'll contribute to any potential low turnout and maybe make a show of Bertie's idea of democracy.

upmeath

Gob&#225 wrote: »

That's true, but wouldn't you achieve an even better result by voting against him and then writing to him as follows:

"Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate which went to your rival, Ms FG/Lab/Green/SF, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

The big parties compile detailed tallies of votes from each ballot box so local trends will be spotted.

That's true, that would be the ultimate way of hammering the message through to your local Liar/FF/PD/Property Developer TD (or hopefully former TD)

Fremen

Do you notice why there are no election posters in the poorer neighbourhood's, they dont want them to know there is an election on

What?! That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

With regard to the OP, I think spoiling a vote is a pretty pathetic protest. If no-one appeals to you but you still feel strongly, you should run as an independant or picket the polling place.

As far as I know, Australia has compulsory voting with a "none of the above" box. It's a good idea if you ask me, but I think it could also lead to people who aren't interested in politics choosing candidates at random

lucernarian

flogen wrote:

Such a generalisation in itself is equally stupid.

I've always felt we should have a "none of the above" on the ballot sheet because I'm sure many spoiled votes are in fact protest votes.

Frankly, it doesn't make a jot of difference if your picking between spoiling your vote or not voting at all. The former will be put down to error and any comment you make on it won't be seen by anyone other than the counter and the latter will be put down to apathy or laziness.

So it's your call, really, because no-one will hear your protest either way. That said, if you also believe that a Thursday polling day was a bad idea you should just not turn up - that way you'll contribute to any potential low turnout and maybe make a show of Bertie's idea of democracy.

Agreed. Regarding your last point, mabye complaining about the Thursday vote on a spoilt ballot would be a better way of getting the message across.

AidoCQS

upmeath wrote:

That's true, that would be the ultimate way of hammering the message through to your local Liar/FF/PD/Property Developer TD (or hopefully former TD)

So the plan is put a little message on the ballot paper, the local Liar/FF/PD/Property Developer TD will get sad and quit, is that it?

The only way they become a

upmeath wrote:

former TD

is if you vote them out.

Now if you want to really upset them, Vote greens or sin feinn, and know that if they need either of those parties to make up numbers, they WILL be upset.

flogen

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Agreed. Regarding your last point, mabye complaining about the Thursday vote on a spoilt ballot would be a better way of getting the message across.

Well it would if anyone of importance read it - but you're also defeating your own point (in that you turned up so it couldn't have been that hard to vote on a Thursday).

By staying at home, and if it happens in larger than usual numbers, people will start to say "it's not just laziness, many people couldn't make it to their homes due to college, exams or the long commute".

Nichololas

If you're going to spoil your vote, dont just add another box - that's kinda lame. Instead, put Pi, square root 16, log10 and maybe throw in a quadratic equation or two. For science.

Elmo

I always see spoilt votes as a sign of stupidity.

I might make a joke once the count is over. (I hope I can make it )

IMO if you want to spoil your vote you can, it would be more stupid not to vote at all. It shows you have taken an interest and that you aren't to happy with the current crop of politicans. However that should lead you to go up for election.

VOTE TAYTO OR FOR SPAR IN THE ORDER OF YOUR CHOICE

Stabshauptmann

Fremen wrote:

What?! That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

With regard to the OP, I think spoiling a vote is a pretty pathetic protest. If no-one appeals to you but you still feel strongly, you should run as an independant or picket the polling place.

As far as I know, Australia has compulsory voting with a "none of the above" box. It's a good idea if you ask me, but I think it could also lead to people who aren't interested in politics choosing candidates at random

Australia is one of 33 countries with manditory voting, but there is no None of The Above option

Khannie

Elmo wrote:

It shows you have taken an interest and that you aren't to happy with the current crop of politicans.

exactly.

Elmo wrote:

However that should lead you to go up for election.

A few have said this. I disagree. It may spur others into becoming independent candidates. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to run yourself.

Quick. You have 8 minutes. RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

flogen

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Australia is one of 33 countries with manditory voting, but there is no None of The Above option

I'd be completely opposed to that - I'm open to the merits of the mandatory vote but if you're going to force someone to go they should at least have the option of clearly registering their apathy at the electoral system.

one-angry-dwarf

cheers for all the comments, a lot of good points raised. after a bit more research into the candidates i actually did find someone i felt might make a difference and gave my vote to them (didnt go for any 2,3,4 etc)
i still feel the current 'tick the box and hope' method is a long way from real democracy where politicians are more accountable and people have a more active role in decisions that affect thier lives. but in the context of this election alone, i'd rather have someone new in power than not vote at all and change nothing. i agree with previous comments about my disillusionment with the current voting system and irish politics in general being best expressed through correspondance with a local TD. spoiling/not voting was tempting to do on principal, but in reality wouldn't really acheive anything.
i do feel that a 'none of the above' option should be included, and i might have gone for that had it been an option.

seamus

AidoCQS wrote:

Do you notice why there are no election posters in the poorer neighbourhood's, they dont want them to know there is an election on.

Paranoid much? Can't say I've noticed any areas devoid of campaign posters, but if this is the situation I'd argue that it's much more likely they don't appear in poorer neighbourhoods because they've been vandalised/destroyed.

flogen wrote:

I've always felt we should have a "none of the above" on the ballot sheet because I'm sure many spoiled votes are in fact protest votes.

"None of the above" is a good idea when you can reject all of the options - think Presidential election or referendum. If more people select "None of the above" than any of the candidates, then nobody gets in, and the election starts again.

In a transferable system like this though, it can't work. The seats *must* be filled. Would you propose that anyone who gets less votes than the "None of the above" total gets instantly eliminated? If so, what happens if seats can't be filled?
In the current system, if you have four seats, 10 candidates, and only four people vote in a constituency (for example!), then four candidates will still get in. If we bring the NOTA option, what happens when the rest of the constituency votes NOTA, and nobody gets in? New election? Elect the most popular non-elected candidates from the other constituencies?

As for spoiling your vote, it's pointless. You're better off staying at home. The only person who'll know or care what you did with your vote is you. Nobody who gives two ****s will read anything you write, nobody will give a **** about the total number of spoiled votes, and anyone who does look at the total will consider it to be idiots who didn't know how to fill out a card.

If you want to protest against all of the candidates up for election, then you don't vote. If you want to protest against particular candidates, then fill in a preference for every other candidate on your ballot.

McSandwich

upmeath wrote:

According to other posters in this forum, the Returning Officer must validate all spoilt votes, and he/she will more than likely have tallymen looking over his/her shoulder as they do so, meaning somebody pretty high up in the party in question is going to see why that voter feels disaffected, perhaps over their stance on some important local issue. And who knows, maybe if they see a couple dozen spoilt votes with the same angry messages on them they'll cop on a bit.

Eg. "Dear Mr. FF/PD candidate, I would have voted for you only you didn't do X for BallyXYZ even though you said you would last time out when your party went into power, so this time you've lost X number of votes from the BallyXYZ electorate, I hope you're happy you corrupt fcuk!"

You could do that, but voting for someone else will hurt "Mr. FF/PD candidate" far more as unlike a spoilt vote it might just prevent him from getting re-elected..

Raiser

one-angry-dwarf wrote:

*edits*....after a bit more research into the candidates i actually did find someone i felt might make a difference and gave my vote to them (didnt go for any 2,3,4 etc)
i still feel the current 'tick the box and hope' method is a long way from real democracy....*edits

Nobody knows what you did in that booth.

But if you "didn't go for any 2,3,4 etc" and "tick[ed] the box" for the "them" you felt might make a difference then, you Sir would have spoilt your vote :eek:

But perhaps I'm reading this wrong and making too many presumptions and assumptions.

Crash

Sorry, all those saying spoiling your vote doesnt matter, the only person who will know is you - **** that.

The point of spoiling your vote is that you are casting a vote of dissatisfaction. this is shown by the difference between the full poll and the valid poll. its an important number, and is worth paying attention to.

and you know what, even if it isnt worth anything, I know I will respect any person I know more who votes and spoils rather than stays at home. because it shows that even though they felt disaffected by it, they didnt feel apathetic. and you know, thats a very important difference.

Dero

I presume he gave his number one to one candidate, but recored no further preferences, which is a perfectly valid vote.

EDIT: Re Raiser's post above ^^

Gobán Saor

Raiser wrote:

Nobody knows what you did in that booth.

But if you "didn't go for any 2,3,4 etc" and "tick[ed] the box" for the "them" you felt might make a difference then, you Sir would have spoilt your vote :eek:

But perhaps I'm reading this wrong and making too many presumptions and assumptions.

A tick against a single candidate is generally accepted by returning officers as an "expression of preference" by the voter and is valid.

one-angry-dwarf

Raiser wrote:

Nobody knows what you did in that booth.

But if you "didn't go for any 2,3,4 etc" and "tick[ed] the box" for the "them" you felt might make a difference then, you Sir would have spoilt your vote :eek:

But perhaps I'm reading this wrong and making too many presumptions and assumptions.

i might be wrong but are you assuming i 'ticked the box'? i didn't, i put a '1' in it! sorry if its worded wrong.

Dave!

&#231 wrote: »

Sorry, all those saying spoiling your vote doesnt matter, the only person who will know is you - **** that.

The point of spoiling your vote is that you are casting a vote of dissatisfaction. this is shown by the difference between the full poll and the valid poll. its an important number, and is worth paying attention to.

What do you mean by "the difference between the full poll and the valid poll"?

&#231 wrote: »

and you know what, even if it isnt worth anything, I know I will respect any person I know more who votes and spoils rather than stays at home. because it shows that even though they felt disaffected by it, they didnt feel apathetic. and you know, thats a very important difference.

Well just because somebody stayed at home doesn't mean they were apathetic. If you spoil your vote it doesn't make a difference to who gets elected; same with staying at home. If you don't feel drawn to any of the candidates, and don't want to vote for the lesser of the evils, then staying at home is just as valid as spoiling your vote.

Raiser

Good - to be honest, you were already angry when you were merely democratically disillusioned and self-disenfranchised, had you accidentally spoilt your vote I'd have logged off and hidden under my bed in terror regardless of your diminutive stature :eek:

Dave!

Raiser wrote:

Good - to be honest, you were already angry when you were merely democratically disillusioned and self-disenfranchised, had you accidentally spoilt your vote I'd have logged off and hidden under my bed in terror regardless of your diminutive stature :eek:

There is an extremely excessive magnitude of elongated and perplexing linguistic characters in your contribution! :eek:

Pherekydes

DaveMcG wrote:

What do you mean by "the difference between the full poll and the valid poll"?



Well just because somebody stayed at home doesn't mean they were apathetic. If you spoil your vote it doesn't make a difference to who gets elected; same with staying at home. If you don't feel drawn to any of the candidates, and don't want to vote for the lesser of the evils, then staying at home is just as valid as spoiling your vote.

The total poll = all votes cast

Total valid poll = all votes cast less the spoiled votes

Raiser

DaveMcG wrote:

There is an extremely excessive magnitude of elongated and perplexing linguistic characters in your contribution! :eek:

Don't fcuk with me ballix or I'll hide your w@nky passport and then you can stick your ticker up your ar$e sideways.

- See I can communicate in many ways

* Mods Am joking by the way...............!!!

seamus

DaveMcG wrote:

What do you mean by "the difference between the full poll and the valid poll"?

The full poll is the number of ballots posted. The valid poll is the full poll minus the spoiled votes.

I'd disagree on principle, crash. Nobody cares about the spoiled votes. They're not counted as votes of dissatisfaction, they're counted as votes that weren't filled out correctly.

Choosing to spoil or stay at home is a personal choice. If it makes you feel more personally contented to go and make the effort, then great. If it doesn't, no biggie. If someone admitted to me that they didn't vote because they didn't have a preference for any candidate (as opposed to "couldn't be arsed"), then I'd have just as much respect for them as someone who'd spoiled.

tba

I can see Godwins law rearing its head in this thread very soon.

Raiser

Is a spoiled vote actually registered as a gesture of disatisfaction in any meaningful sense?

Even if it was, does anyone even give a flying fcuk?

- I reckon as a gesture of disatisfaction, a spoilt vote is comparable to slamming the kitchen door and sulking in your bedroom - just 'cause its "SO unfair".

Pherekydes

tba wrote:

I can see Godwins law rearing its head in this thread very soon.

If you don't vote, or if you spoil your vote, the Nazis get in.








Howzat?

tba

Slow coach wrote:

If you don't vote, or if you spoil your vote, the PD's get in.

I agree

The_Minister

tba wrote:

I agree

Please explain how the PDs=Nazis?

Crash

See, people seem to be misjudging what a spoiled vote is. its a democratic sign of dissatisfaction with all candidates. if its not being counted as that, then thats a serious problem.

However all these suggestions that the poster finds someone they dislike most and vote for the opposition are ridiculuous, from his post he seemed to be at a general point of dissatisfaction with all. in which case the proper way to register this is a spoiled vote.

If its ignored, then thats a problem with the system - doesnt make the register of your unhappiness any less important.

There really should be a RON option in voting.

tba

The_Minister wrote:

Please explain how the PDs=Nazis?

Step back a bit from this just for a second and look for the joke instead of the argument.

Dave!

&#231 wrote: »

See, people seem to be misjudging what a spoiled vote is. its a democratic sign of dissatisfaction with all candidates. if its not being counted as that, then thats a serious problem.

However all these suggestions that the poster finds someone they dislike most and vote for the opposition are ridiculuous, from his post he seemed to be at a general point of dissatisfaction with all. in which case the proper way to register this is a spoiled vote.

If its ignored, then thats a problem with the system - doesnt make the register of your unhappiness any less important.

There really should be a RON option in voting.

A spoiled vote is one that is invalid because it doesn't comply with the rules regarding filling out the ballot paper! It's not a sign of dissatisfaction, it's a sign that there was something wrong with your vote, and it could not be counted. What exactly is wrong with it, nobody outside the polling centre knows -- that's the fact of the matter at the moment!

If there were a "none of the above" option, then THAT would be a sign of dissatisfaction.

Unfortunately there is never going to be a candidate that has the EXACT same views as myself, so obviously if I want to affect the outcome of the election, I have to find one that matches my views close enough and vote for them. Democracy isn't perfect!

Crash

Part of democracy is the idea of a "ReOpen nominations" or "none of the above" vote or the ability to register dissatisfaction - closest thing we have is a spoiled vote, and it should be used as such if thats the case.

lostexpectation

jhegarty wrote:

Spoil it , proves your not just lazy..

its not apathy its antipathy