VRT will now be 100% Linked to Emissions

Meister

Was in todays Motors section of the Times. Well I supose its the fairest way, but wait for the penal rates, and "its for the environment" line. .........What do you think this will mean?

SGKM

In theory its a good idea, as in if a 530d is made cheaper than a 530i because it less damaging to the environment. But not if the 530i is made more expensive due to the introduction of a higher rate of VRT. I hope that this isnt an excuse to slyly make higher rates of VRT!

smash

when will this kick in?

C_Breeze

any link to an article or more info pls?? when does it say this will come inot effect?

bazz26

Seems strange imo for the government to announce this on the eve of a general election or is it just media speculation?

ondafly

Meister wrote:

Was in todays Motors section of the Times. Well I supose its the fairest way, but wait for the penal rates, and "its for the environment" line. .........What do you think this will mean?

:eek: Fairest way ?? That would be putting all this stupid motoring taxes onto the price of petrol. I drive a 3 litre car, but I've only done 8K miles in 2 years. Yet I've paid 3K in VRT, and 2K in motoring Tax.....

It would also put an end to all the moaners and groaners giving out about foreign reg cars getting away without roadtax

I.S.T.

This was being talked about last December...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/1206/budget4.html

DukeDredd

Article in the Times:

Rethink on VRT and emissions reforms

Daniel Attwood

The Department of Finance is rethinking its reforms to the current Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) system so that they will take full account of a vehicle's emissions, and no longer base charges on engine size.

A Department of Finance spokesperson confirmed the change of mind: "We have met with a number of stakeholders and a range of possible options are now being considered, including a full CO2 emissions-related scheme."

Should such a scheme be adopted, it would bring Ireland in line with European Commission recommendations to end vehicle registration taxes and instead tax motorists according to the amount of pollutants their vehicles emit. Such a move would be a major step away from the reforms the Minister indicated he would favour following his announcement of the tax reforms.

The Department of Finance published four options following his announcement in his December Budget speech that VRT was to be significantly modified.

Submissions were then invited suggesting which of the four options were preferable.

However, a number of the 61 submissions, which were made by organisations such as the AA and the motor industry representative body, SIMI, as well as from vehicle importers and members of the public, suggested that none of the four published options went far enough.

While the Department published the four options that clearly indicated how it intended to reform VRT, it is understood that these meetings prompted a change of thinking.

The high number of submissions that suggested a tax, based solely on a vehicle's emissions taken together with the Minister for Finance's promise to take into account the views of interested parties before making a decision, indicate that he may go further than was first thought.

Mr Cowen also stated in his Budget speech that the changes would take effect from January 1st, 2008. But several of the submissions from the motor industry have warned that an implementation date as early as January 1st would have a damaging effect on new vehicle sales.

Meanwhile, Green Machines, the Irish supplier of the zero-emission Vectrix Scooter, has been told that its scooter is not eligible for a VRT reduction. Managing director Robert Nolan explained: "Unlike hybrids, which still produce substantial greenhouse gasses, our Vectrix scooter, a 100 per cent emissions-free vehicle, has been refused any VRT reduction.

"It is comical that when we were in contact with the Department of Finance they informed us that VRT reductions are only available for cars, as they are specifically mentioned in the Finance Bill. Under this logic a carbon producing hybrid vehicle will get a 50 per cent VRT refund, while a carbon-free scooter will not." Green Machines is now calling on the Government and opposition parties to immediately remove VRT and reduce VAT on zero-emission vehicles.

smash

This drives me up the wall... I'm going to be driving a 3 ltr car aprox 5k miles a year and I'll be paying €2,700 VRT and €1,343 a year in road tax... then there's sales people driving 1.4ltr golfs 25k - 35k miles a year and paying €313 a year in tax... surely they're doing more damage to the environment than I am.. put all the tax's on petrol!

sesswhat

steve06 wrote:

This drives me up the wall... I'm going to be driving a 3 ltr car aprox 5k miles a year and I'll be paying €2,700 VRT and €1,343 a year in road tax... then there's sales people driving 1.4ltr golfs 25k - 35k miles a year and paying €313 a year in tax... surely they're doing more damage to the environment than I am.. put all the tax's on petrol!

Although i can see the logic in putting it all on fuel, nobody is being forced to drive a 3 ltr car. At 5k miles a year you'd probably be cheaper to get a taxi.

ondafly

sesswhat wrote:

nobody is being forced to drive a 3 ltr car.

correct - but they're forcing us to drive smaller engine cars , which can hardly pull the weight of the car as it stands. take 1.6 passats, Avensis, 3-series etc !

Dades

sesswhat wrote:

Although i can see the logic in putting it all on fuel, nobody is being forced to drive a 3 ltr car.

No, but if they pay for the emissions it makes at the same rates as everyone else, then they should be allowed drive what they like.

Besides the whole engine size thing is not an accurate gauge of emissions.

sesswhat

The Atheist wrote:

No, but if they pay for the emissions it makes at the same rates as everyone else, then they should be allowed drive what they like.

Besides the whole engine size thing is not an accurate gauge of emissions.

I agree. As I said I can see the logic of putting it all on fuel.

People are allowed to drive what they like.

The whole engine size thing is not an accurate gauge of emissions.

I'm sure steve06 has his reasons for choosing a 3 ltr to do 5k a year but he introduces his post as if it was something about to be foisted upon upon him outside his control.

I'm going to be driving a 3 ltr car aprox 5k miles a year and I'll be paying €2,700 VRT and €1,343 a year in road tax.

egan007

BULL

It's a ploy to keep VRT.
They need to abolish it altogether.

The TAX should be applied at the pump therefore you would be taxed on usage.

DonJose

I'm also for scrapping VRT and increasing the tax on fuel. This would reduce the price of cars by 25-30% which would see an increase in the number of cars sold each year due to affordability, which would see the Government actually receive more taxes in the form of VAT.

ciarsd

sesswhat wrote:

Although i can see the logic in putting it all on fuel,nobody is being forced to drive a 3 ltr car. At 5k miles a year you'd probably be cheaper to get a taxi.

How defeatist, would it be fair to say that your not a car enthusiast, and only see a car as a means of transport?

Why on earth should an Irish motorist/enthusiast be further constrained and penalised for what they choose to drive? It's this very reason I'm in a new, somewhat practical T/Diesel car and not a used E46 M3 :mad:

I think you've missed the point or don't get the point if your suggesting Stevo should use a taxi instead

Mc-BigE

DonJose wrote:

I'm also for scrapping VRT and increasing the tax on fuel. This would reduce the price of cars by 25-30% which would see an increase in the number of cars sold each year due to affordability, which would see the Government actually receive more taxes in the form of VAT.

Spare a thought for the person (like a lot of SSIA holders now) who have to pay VRT now on a 2007 new car and then Higher Petrol cost next year! double wammy!

ondafly

Mc-BigE wrote:

Spare a thought for the person (like a lot of SSIA holders now) who have to pay VRT now on a 2007 new car and then Higher Petrol cost next year! double wammy!

the same could be said about Stamp Duty. There will always be people who lose out on Tax changes, but its important for the greater good, and the long term benefits we would all have,

DonJose

Mc-BigE wrote:

Spare a thought for the person (like a lot of SSIA holders now) who have to pay VRT now on a 2007 new car and then Higher Petrol cost next year! double wammy!

This could be phased in over 5 years with an annual VRT reduction of 5%. If the tax on fuel was to rise by 5% then fuel costs could also be phased in with a 1% annual increase for 5 years.

Tony Danza

Seems like a joke. There's a guy down the road from me he has a Ford F250, probably a 5 litre engine or something ridiculous, but I've seen the truck move about twice ever, why should he pay €1300 a year on tax (although in typing I just realised that he probably gets commercial tax), along with whatever he paid on VRT for somebody else to drive on the road?? Put the tax on the fuel, that's the fairest way.

astraboy

Ya being a pickup he prob has commercial tax. And VRT on commercials is 50 euro!:) However I think that just shows how unequal and silly the whole VRT thing is. Will the new VRT emissions be extended to vans/commercials as well?

smash

sesswhat wrote:

I'm sure steve06 has his reasons for choosing a 3 ltr to do 5k a year but he introduces his post as if it was something about to be foisted upon upon him outside his control.

I'd be doing about 5k a year because I live in Bray and work in Sandyford, it takes 10mins to get in there because it's close... I chose my car because it's one that I've always wanted and it is unfair to charge me higher than someone doing 6-7 times the mileage I do! It should be put on the pump in my opinion!

MercMad

I used to be in favour of abolishing VRT, then I just made my mind up never to buy and brand new car again. the Country is awash with fantastic cars, all of which will be used cars eventually.

I'll just pick a nice used one, get value for money and I dont care about the VRT thing !

I dont want to see it put on petrolm as this will reduce driving pleasure, and it will innevitably be a percentage of the cost of fuel, which will only rise anyway therefore they will get more VRT from a gallon of fuel as time goes on !

Basically if the Government are in favour........................then I am against it. I smell a rat when this happens !

DonJose

MercMad wrote:

I used to be in favour of abolishing VRT, then I just made my mind up never to buy and brand new car again. the Country is awash with fantastic cars, all of which will be used cars eventually.

I'll just pick a nice used one, get value for money and I dont care about the VRT thing !

If VRT was abolished, the price of second hand cars would be cheaper also. Roughly the same as what you would pay in the UK. At present, the VRT the car owner paid would still be factored into the selling price.

smash

MercMad wrote:

I used to be in favour of abolishing VRT, then I just made my mind up never to buy and brand new car again. the Country is awash with fantastic cars, all of which will be used cars eventually.

I'll just pick a nice used one, get value for money and I dont care about the VRT thing !

I dont want to see it put on petrolm as this will reduce driving pleasure, and it will innevitably be a percentage of the cost of fuel, which will only rise anyway therefore they will get more VRT from a gallon of fuel as time goes on !

Basically if the Government are in favour........................then I am against it. I smell a rat when this happens !

VRT is on used cars too.... if it wasn't there, you're used car would cost you a lot less!

prospect

Cool,

Buy a 5L VW Tourag the week before the new scheme kicks in, the following week it will have increased in value!!

Tipsy Mac

What the article says is " range of possible options are now being considered, including a full CO2 emissions-related scheme." nothing there says 100% emissions based. The tools running Revenue wont back down on VRT, this emissions based plan will not be coming into place ever, they will still use the gombeen cc way to calculate it.

colm_mcm

Isn't this just another option available to them. not the actual plan.

E92

I thin that while this idea is not the best, I would prefer to see VRT gone and replaced with a fuel levy entirely,but thats not going to happen, and so a system based entirely on CO2 is the next best thing.

colm_mcm

I don't think it's as transparent or simple as the fuel levy though. It's also difficult to back-date carbon emissions for all old cars. seems like an awful amount of hard work

How many different tax bands are they proposing anyway? will it be as many as trhe existing system, or just 3 or 4?

cantdecide

the whole premise of vrt makes me so mad. they've had their way with the irish motorist forever.

as a result of vrt ireland as a nation has a fleet of tacky little boxes. it's just bully tactics. we might have the odd gas guzzler but we don't have a gas guzzler problem. emmisions based road tax for my dad's 3l in the uk was £76 for 6 mths. over here it's like €700 for 6 mths. how much does the government actually need for this pious crusade to save the world (not)?

our penance has been done people. how long will it be before they come with the next tax scam. and sh*t- look at the roads. it would be something if we were getting something to help our tax enema go down.

old boy

as sure as god made little green apples theres gonna be a green tax on cars in the next budget regardless of who is in power, handy way of raising dosh tho

unkel

Tipsy Mac wrote:

What the article says is " range of possible options are now being considered, including a full CO2 emissions-related scheme." nothing there says 100% emissions based

Exactly. The article just seems a re-hash based on some ideas from the last year's budget. Oh and yeah, some organisations have made submissions since then. Poor journalism imho :rolleyes:

pburns

To be honest I'll be surprised if a fully emissions-based VRT system is introduced in January...

I'm all for it though. A quick trawl through Top Gear mag illustrates that a 320d / Civic 1.8 VTEC etc have comparable CO2 emissions to the much maligned VW 1.4... By thinking between the lines it should be possible to have a much wider choice of desirable cars.

I just don't agree with removing VRT from the new car price and putting it on fuel. From an environmental point of view the amount of energy required in the manufacturing process is as significent (if not more so) than the fuel it would use during it's life-time. If we really want to make some effort to be 'green' (and probably not many petrol-heads here really care!) we should be incentivising the use of older cars instead of encouraging people to have the latest 07 plate. And I can't see the government doing that!

OK a CO2-based isn't perfect, especially for enthusiasts who want to hear the purr of a 3.0L straight-six petrol, but it's better than what we have!

JHMEG

DonJose wrote:

If VRT was abolished, the price of second hand cars would be cheaper also.

This is the major problem with trying to get rid of VRT. It would be akin to a crash in the housing market. EVERYONE who owns a car would affected by it. Your average nearly new 1.6 family car would probably lose about 6,000 euro in value in an instant.

I just bought a car for €8,500. Going on the revenue's VRT calculator I would be looking at an instant loss of between 2,000 and 2,500 euro in value if VRT was abolished.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

This is the major problem with trying to get rid of VRT. It would be akin to a crash in the housing market

It's hardly on the same scale. Cars are and have always been rapidly depreciating assets. Houses have been (in this country) steeply appreciating assets. Nothing would happen to the economy of this country if the average second hand price of cars would drop by 30% overnight. If the average second hand price of a house would drop by 30% overnight there would be trouble. Big trouble!

JHMEG

unkel wrote:

It's hardly on the same scale. Cars are and have always been rapidly depreciating assets. Houses have been (in this country) steeply appreciating assets. Nothing would happen to the economy of this country if the average second hand price of cars would drop by 30% overnight. If the average second hand price of a house would drop by 30% overnight there would be trouble. Big trouble!

What about the average farmer who bought a brand new Avensis last year for around 29k. Expecting it to lose around 3-4k after a year, it loses 10k instead.

And the big cheese in the city (or average public servant) who bought an E200 last year for 57k. Instead of losing 7k or so in a year, it loses a whopping 32k.

And with decrease in re-sale value, dealers' margins fall. And SIMI is a powerful lobby group.

And don't forget the potential of new car sales dropping to zero as a result of the "don't buy now, wait till next year when VRT is abolished" attitude. A bit like now with houses and stamp duty.

These are the kind of things in this country that can cause a government to fall.

MercMad

I know VRT is already factored in to the costs of used cars, and that all values will fall, but the cost to change up 2/3/4 years will remain the same.

Think of the used cars sitting on forecourts with money against them, say a Mondeo that has ana sking price of €25k, and stands the garage €23k. The VRT situation changes and now the car is only worth €22k used ?

Also all these lease deals that are out there are based upon depreciation over the lease period, which again will change and screw things up.

Its a complex issue, and plenty of people stand to loose. this is obviously what is meant when they state that they have spoken with "stakeholders" meaning SIMI members and financial institutions, but why should they have more say than the rest of us who also own cars and are essentially a larger majority of "stakeholders".

This could only be done on a phased basis, and if it is fuel linked then the cost of everything, and I mean everything will rise, as transport compnaies will have to charge more just to bring products to the marketplace.

I dont have the answers but innevitably it will be ill concieved and cost us, the Irish Motorist, a lot more in the end and a lot more than they will indicate at the start.

I am also wondering why a commercial X5 should recieve such a huge VRT reduction in the first place. If you need something for business buy a Van ! Now I dont want to dictate to anyone what they should buy but fair is fair, and currently a lot of things are not !

Also dont forget that the Irish Motorist contributes hugely to the "coffers" yets IMO the people using public transport contribute nothing. They are being subsidised by us. It is unreasonable to expect people to get away with paying €2.00 to get from Malahide to the City centre for example.............its too cheap !

I say double the price of public transport and halve motor tax !

Either way the Irish Motorist should join forces, start a proper organisation, collect funds and start making demands before we get walked on again. We are a strong group of passionate people !

JHMEG

MercMad wrote:

We are a strong group of passionate people !

All we need is a good leader!;)

Marcus.Aurelius

VRT should not be levied on safety equipment. IF you're thick enough to buy a new car, then you're just being raped a bit harder. You're still being raped, what's the problem?

smash

maoleary wrote:

IF you're thick enough to buy a new car

what kind of statement is that... if you want a new car, you get one... it doesn't make you thick!

MercMad

we should be incentivising the use of older cars instead of encouraging people to have the latest 07 plate. And I can't see the government doing that!

.......precisely !

No the Government wont do that because it will upset the "stakeholders" or should I say, it will upset who the Government want to believe are the stakeholders, i.e not Joe Public !

Mc-BigE

maoleary wrote:

VRT should not be levied on safety equipment. IF you're thick enough to buy a new car, then you're just being raped a bit harder. You're still being raped, what's the problem?

Without New cars there'll be no 2nd hand bargins for you to have:D

also using your logic, a person could be considered thick for buying a 2nd hand car, because it will be worth less in 5 years from the time you bought it.

sesswhat

Mc-BigE wrote:

Without New cars there'll be no 2nd hand bargins for you to have:D

Is there a danger we're going to run out of thick people??

layke

I'd like to point out we live in Ireland. Car dealers will just jack up the price of the cars knowing people will pay it if the vrt comes off.

unkel

JHMEG wrote:

What about the average farmer who bought a brand new Avensis last year for around 29k

Every single average farmer in Ireland is a multi-millionaire if he / she sold out. A few grand here or there isn't really material for said farmer, is it?

Raiser

steve06 wrote:

what kind of statement is that... if you want a new car, you get one... it doesn't make you thick!

Due to the ridiculous demon that is VRT - If you buy a new car then you Sir are actually paying 3% of the annual housing fee for a malfunctioning, redundant electronic voting machine straight out of you own pocket.

FACT!*





* Note: All facts may not in actual fact be factual facts.

ninty9er

Raiser wrote:

Due to the ridiculous demon that is VRT - If you buy a new car then you Sir are actually paying 3% of the annual housing fee for a malfunctioning, redundant electronic voting machine straight out of you own pocket.

FACT!*





* Note: All facts may not in actual fact be factual facts.

Really....3% of my €0 tax goes to maintaing voting machines...cop on!!

Anyway the farmer who pays €30k for the Avensis and loses 10k overnight would only be paying 23-24k for his new Avensis next year so it balances out!!

Raiser

ninty9er wrote:

Really....3% of my €0 tax goes to maintaing voting machines...cop on!!

Anyway the farmer who pays €30k for the Avensis and loses 10k overnight would only be paying 23-24k for his new Avensis next year so it balances out!!

? If they won't read the small print then I labour in vain

- Hope ye'all have a poor day tomorrow 99'r - nothin' personal you understand

colm_mcm

layke wrote:

I'd like to point out we live in Ireland. Car dealers will just jack up the price of the cars knowing people will pay it if the vrt comes off.

unlikely, if it was significantly cheaper to import new cars from Northern Ireland, then people would do that.

galwaytt

maoleary wrote:

IF you're thick enough to buy a new car,

...then you'd better hope all us new-car buyers don't take offence, or, worse, start buying second hand ones......

Why? Easy -for a car to become secondhand, someone has to buy it new, first. So you, sir, are both suffering from 'funnel vision' as well as being rude.

If it wasn't for the likes of (me, kinda..), Unkel would never be able to pick up the yokes he does, for the price he does.....(although we do have to listen to him afterwards..;) ), and nor would anyone else..........

Likewise, Ned & ColmMcm are all feeding your habit..........there isn't a factory I know of punting out used cars.........