Is the alternative coalition suitable for our long term national transport strategy?

Zoney

Irish and Proud wrote:

It's still designed for 120kph, so the point is ...

The point is that any road designed for 120km/h should have that as the speed limit, and for reasons of safety and sanity should have motorway restrictions (no pedestrians, learner drivers, etc.)

Also the important headline statistic for anyone weighing up Ireland's road infrastructure is km of motorway. Not km of "things like motorway, no really, you'd hardly notice the difference".

"High Quality Dual Carriageways" are a bad joke. An Irish solution to an Irish problem, and I don't even know what crazy problem the outgoing govt. had. Too many learner drivers? Opposition from farmers or eco-warriors? (ah sure don't be worried, it's just a big road, not one of those wild outrageous motorway things).

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote:

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Don't be ridiculous!

Victor wrote:

No, thats exactly how they did it. Look at the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. How else do you think they went from 6 billion to 14 billion+.

If the above is true, this looks like a typical screw-up by senior civil servants, something which seems to have been a major problem for many past governments. For example, I heard that when the N3 Blanchardstown By-pass was being built (1989 - 1991), the flyovers for the rotary over the then proposed M50 Northern Cross Route were initially built but then had to be demolished because they were unstable - the ribbed arched bridges that we see today happen to be their replacement apparently. Now that would be some screw-up and I think senior staff of the then Dublin County Council were fired in the aftermath, so what you quoted might not be at all surprising.

The above would probably have been a contributory factor towards the case for fixed price design and build contracts, and as someone else quoted, early contractor involvement as is the case with the N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown scheme currently underway. The planning for this particular scheme seemed very quick - a bit like the N8 Cashel By-pass.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Zoney wrote:

The point is that any road designed for 120km/h should have that as the speed limit, and for reasons of safety and sanity should have motorway restrictions (no pedestrians, learner drivers, etc.)

Also the important headline statistic for anyone weighing up Ireland's road infrastructure is km of motorway. Not km of "things like motorway, no really, you'd hardly notice the difference".

"High Quality Dual Carriageways" are a bad joke. An Irish solution to an Irish problem, and I don't even know what crazy problem the outgoing govt. had. Too many learner drivers? Opposition from farmers or eco-warriors? (ah sure don't be worried, it's just a big road, not one of those wild outrageous motorway things).

OK, you've got some good points there, but it's not an Irish solution to an Irish problem, but an English solution to an Irish problem. You have heard that many new motorway type roads in England have been simply called dual carriageways, because the word 'motorway' is virtually taboo over there!

However, I do agree that it's ridiculous having 120kph HQDCs not designated as motorways, especially with the narrow median cross section. The broken line for hard shoulders (just 2.5m against 3.5m lanes) implies that it's perfectly OK to stop off and have a snack, even though the traffic would be passing at an ear whistling 120kph - this is crazy, even for emergencies, I must admit. This is one reason why I don't agree with the tighter configuration. Another reason is that a hard shoulder on a motorway type road is supposed to allow vehicles to safely build their speed before rejoining the main carriageway. At 2.5m, I don't know about that! The same applies to actual motorways both in Ireland and on the continent.

I'll leave it there!

Andrew Duffy

stipey wrote:

(Wasn't there some statistic going around when the luas was finally rolled out that the whole project - all €700 million of it - was more than the American's spent getting to the moon)

The Apollo project cost about $25 billion in the 1960s and early 1970s. By any reasonable conversion, that's equivalent to over $100 billion today. Since launching a medium-sized commercial satellite costs about $200 million, it's hard to believe that anybody would think €700m euros would have got men to the moon, even in 1969.

murphaph

Andrew Duffy wrote:

The Apollo project cost about $25 billion in the 1960s and early 1970s. By any reasonable conversion, that's equivalent to over $100 billion today. Since launching a medium-sized commercial satellite costs about $200 million, it's hard to believe that anybody would think €700m euros would have got men to the moon, even in 1969.

....but it would probably build a fairly convincing set.:D

Metrobest

Irish and Proud wrote:

our population stands at just 4.23m (2006 census). With this in mind, we have just completed one of Europe's largest civil engineering projects: The Dublin Port Tunnel (DPT), which is also the only scheme ever to exceed the scale of Ardnacrusha in the state. Also, bear in mind that no tunnel in Britain is as long as the DPT. And then there's what you were saying above ...

So yes, we can be Irish and Proud! Let's get real!

I agree. When the motorway network is completed it will be very impressive for a country of Ireland's size and relatively low population density. (Interestingly, I read somewhere that Ireland used to be the most densely populated country in Europe before the famine broke out).

The road network the one example of Irish transport planning that anticipates demand rather than reacts to it; for that the PD government does deserve your first preference vote. I don't think an opposition government with a tint of dark Green would be capable of completing this network competently.

Before coming to work in Australia I casually supposed that its two biggest cities, Sydney and Melbourne (combined population is 8 million), would be linked by motorway. They are not. They are linked by a two lane road, which a newspaper described as a "goat track" stretching monotonously for hundreds of kilometres. To think that Dublin will have a motorway running all the way to a medium-sized town on the Altantic coast, Galway, is quite impressive don't you think?

I've looked on at the election campaign with Fine Gael and Labour constantly telling us that we've never had it so bad and I know they are wrong, and will be proven wrong by the result of the election.

Bertie Ahern is right to say that aside from a few peripheral issues Ireland is doing pretty damn well for a country that was an econimic basket case just over a decade ago.

We have a better road system than Australia, lower taxation, a fairer industrial relations system, better education, an equally good health service, better foreign policy, better television, better pubs. Now if only the government could do something about the climate.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

We have a better road system than Australia, lower taxation, a fairer industrial relations system, better education, an equally good health service, better foreign policy, better television, better pubs.

Makes one wonder why you haven't lived in Ireland for so long.

Why should we compare ourselves to a country on the other side of the world anyway? We have better examples of all those things you cited in Europe.

markpb

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

Hi government, I dunno if you noticed but your road between Sydney and Melbourne isn't very impressive and doesn't do it for me and another closet motorway fanboy who writes for a local paper. Can you drop a few million tonnes of tarmac please? kthxbai, Metrobest.

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.

Metrobest wrote:

Now if only the government could do something about the climate.

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

Irish and Proud

markpb wrote:

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

As far as I know, people in Australia mostly fly between cities, but one would think that if only a 2 lane road is required between two of their major destinations, it would still be of high quality, like our S2 standard - if the road is being described as a goat track, that doesn't say much for Australia - look at the many large highways in the USA, even where the population is sparse.

markpb wrote:

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.;)

Commuting and property prices are a world wide problem and I admit, it's a total disgrace. :mad: However, in this country we are all culpable for the above situation - we all want to make a quick buck (particularly in property), so many of us want to work in cities like Dublin, and many in the civil service are unwilling to stick their necks out and go with the current decentralisation programme. If we want change, we have to take responsibility and make hard decisions for the long term good. There is no magic wand out there!

markpb wrote:

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

The way you reduce carbon emmisions is the encourage people to seek work closer to home, encourage some high skilled industries to spread out from cities like Dublin into towns like Navan and Drogheda, tax SUVs and 4x4s off the road (unless they can be justified - farming etc), encourage more hybrid cars and finally, encourage more tele-working! There's no reason why this country shouldn't have a decent motorway system - even though our European counterparts have comprehensive public transport, they also have motorway systems similar to what we're building.

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

I've looked on at the election campaign with Fine Gael and Labour constantly telling us that we've never had it so bad and I know they are wrong, and will be proven wrong by the result of the election.

I'd say the election will be pretty tight, but I hope the current government will shade it, even if the support of independents were required (similar to the 1997-2002 Dail). If FG and Lab insist in saying that we've never had it so bad, they'd do well to look at their performance in the 1980's - when I see the large 'Vote Labour' on Liberty Hall, what comes to mind regarding public transport are strikes, non courteous staff, unreliability, non cleanliness etc.

That's not to say the things are perfect today, but our trains and buses (not Bus Eireann though) are a massive improvement on what we had. I have been using the northern commuter rail service into Dublin quite a bit and I have to say it's pretty good - I know it becomes overcrowded during rush hour, but I've already covered that issue of long distance commuting. That said, if Labour got into government, would the work ethic in our public transport system continue in the right direction - I have my doubts! However, I think management was also to blame for poor public transport!

BTW, the LUAS Green Line is excellent - have used it several times!!!

I hope you're right about the election result, but we'll have to wait and see!

markpb

Irish and Proud wrote:

As far as I know, people in Australia mostly fly between cities, but one would think that if only a 2 lane road is required between two of their major destinations, it would still be of high quality, like our S2 standard - if the road is being described as a goat track, that doesn't say much for Australia

Why? If most people fly or take the train (which are more apt for super long distances) why would you spend money upgrading the road? What difference does it make? We're back at the motorway fan club again.

so many of us want to work in cities like Dublin, and many in the civil service are unwilling to stick their necks out and go with the current decentralisation programme. If we want change, we have to take responsibility and make hard decisions for the long term good. There is no magic wand out there!

Decentralisation, in it's current form, is a joke that has been debated to death here. It was badly conceived, ill thought out and used for political gain. If it had been done properly and in a manner that was likely to work (not brute forcing civil servants out of the city), it might have made some small difference to Dublin.

I work in software development and apart from the fact that there are precious few development jobs outside of Dublin, I want to live in a city. I want the freedom of having public transport instead of the costs of buying, taxing, insuring and parking a car. There are no other cities in Ireland (apart from Belfast) that offer me that and I'm sure plenty of others are in the same boat. If I don't want to move, why should any software company set up outside Dublin? It's an endless cycle. This government did nothing to encourage people to move and nothing to balance development across several cities. All the motorways in the world won't help that.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

FYI, Sydney and Melbourne were supposed to have a motorway linking them; the Australian federal government and the state governments have delayed and dithered and done nothing, meanwhile everyone else suffers. Sound familiar? Yes, they have incompentent policians in other counties, too.

The point I'm making is that Ireland's doing very well and Mark I can't understand why you're not prepared to acknowledge that. You accuse me of wearing rose tinted glasses but you're the one with the blinkers on.

What I do in relation to life in Ireland is to constantly point out that we were an econonic basket case in the late 80s and early 90s when Fine Gael and Labour had their chance to fix things and didn't. Back then, the roads were a joke. Most people's idea of a holiday was a caravan trip to Wales on the ferry. The health service was worse than it is today. Low and middle-income earners lost more than half their pay packets in income tax. University education meant fees many could not afford. Emigration was rampant - a brain drain to places like Australia where life was better. And the roads were a joke. There was no luas. There was no Ryanair to escape the misery cheaply.

It's fair to say that life in Ireland has got better, not worse, in the last five years.

Bertie Ahern's motorways improve the quality of life for vast majority of Irish citizens who would prefer to recline on a sun bed in Uranus for seven years than sit in traffic in Moate for forty minutes.

And there's nothing wrong with building infrastructure that impresses, for that matter. Singapore's Chiangi airport, when built, was considered a grandiose, grotesque investment at a time when that country was still finding its feet. It turned out to be an economic success. Look also at Sydney Harbour Bridge, Singapore's East Coast Parkway and France's Milau Viaduct, infrastructure built to impress but with a function.

You seem to advocating a return to the "tax and spend" policies that have failed Ireland in the past, pumping more money into bloated state monopolies, and an inefficient public service. Does hiring more teachers actually make education better, or should we get better teachers?

Philip, you're right when you say we don't have to compare ourselves to Australia - what we should be able to do, however, is to recognise what we are doing right and be proud of what we have achieved as a nation, rather than have a "grass is always greener" approach, as Mark exhibits. Australians think of themselves as the the best country in the world, so do the French and the Dutch and many others. I've lived in different countries and seen the grass in different shades. Lots of things about Ireland still frustrate me (eg. The Irish Times editorials which Charlie Haughey said were written "like an oul wan sitting in the bath with the water lapping around her fanny") and I don't desire to live there at this point in time. (In Ireland, not the bath...:p )

I'll leave it there!

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

Yes, they have incompentent policians in other counties, too.

Yes indeed - just look at the Big Dig freeway project in Boston!

Metrobest wrote:

The point I'm making is that Ireland's doing very well and Mark I can't understand why you're not prepared to acknowledge that. You accuse me of wearing rose tinted glasses but you're the one with the blinkers on.

Let me add to that - I am sick and tired of people running down this country. :mad: Such an attitude was handed down to us by the old British mentality which lasted right into the 1990's - remember when one edition of the Oxford Dictionary had a single description of the word 'Irish' as 'ludicrous and illogical' or something along those lines - Also, does 'Ireland is a land peopled by pixies, peasants and priests' come to mind? - both these inane descriptions of our nation were made in the 1990's. Most British people seem to have moved on now, and it's about time we did too!!! :cool: Ireland is a great nation considering where we were when the state was born in 1921!

Metrobest wrote:

What I do in relation to life in Ireland is to constantly point out that we were an econonic basket case in the late 80s and early 90s when Fine Gael and Labour had their chance to fix things and didn't. Back then, the roads were a joke. Most people's idea of a holiday was a caravan trip to Wales on the ferry. The health service was worse than it is today. Low and middle-income earners lost more than half their pay packets in income tax. University education meant fees many could not afford. Emigration was rampant - a brain drain to places like Australia where life was better. And the roads were a joke. There was no luas. There was no Ryanair to escape the misery cheaply.

Now, some people say that we didn't have the money in the 1980's, but something has just come to mind - in the lifetime of the FG/Lab government then, the national debt was doubled to over IR£20bn, but that would only be an extra IR£10bn to play around with then! :rolleyes: Oh, and I'm sure that when the Euro conversion and national inflation rates are taken into account, it still wouldn't amount to much by today's prices!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

markpb wrote:

This government did nothing to encourage people to move and nothing to balance development across several cities. All the motorways in the world won't help that.

Motorways will help towards industry dispersal, but what's also needed is more broadband, and other services like natural gas based in the provincial towns - this process is currently underway around the country (new gas lines and broadband projects), but hey, the government are still doing nothing about balanced regional development! :rolleyes:

However, what's also needed is a major promotion drive to highlight the advantages of setting up high skilled industries in provincial towns. Further to that, high density development along with imp style buses would make such towns more viable.

I'll leave it there.

Victor

Broadband and gas rollout is abysmal.

In Northern Ireland, if you had electricity you could get broadband 4-5 years ago. Here, in Europe's e-hub, we aren't anywhere near that yet.

http://www.bordgais.ie/networks/index.jsp?1nID=102&pID=104&nID=141 - Bord Gais prioitising getting gas to Derry over gas to, erm Belmullet, where the gas will come from.

Irish and Proud wrote:

OK, you've got some good points there, but it's not an Irish solution to an Irish problem, but an English solution to an Irish problem. You have heard that many new motorway type roads in England have been simply called dual carriageways, because the word 'motorway' is virtually taboo over there!

Actually, in England, a similar road to these would be termed and 'expressway' in a corruption of the American term, built without hard shoulders and some other features.

Irish and Proud

I was at the polling booths this morning and I voted like I said: FF and PD
Nothing convinces me that either FG/Lab or FG/Lab/Greens would be a good alternative to the outgoing government, especially in relation to transport!

Labour - Too pro-union - not good for transport commuters!
Greens - Too anti-motorway - not good for the inter-urbans!
Fine Gael - Has a history of allowing the tail to wag the dog!

Need I say more???

Stark

Irish and Proud wrote:

Labour - Too pro-union - not good for public transport commuters!

How much has public transport improved in 10 years of FF/PDs government?

Irish and Proud

Stark wrote:

How much has public transport improved in 10 years of FF/PDs government?

Having used the Northern Commuter Line into Dublin many times, it's not a hard question. We've acquired a completely new set of railcars which are clean and quite efficient. We've seen most stations upgraded - longer platforms, new bridges, stairs, ramps and lifts. More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar? :rolleyes:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Oh please don't go on about 'no extra buses for Dublin', because it doesn't really stand up. With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

I'll leave it there.

Stark

Isn't Dublin great?

I can still wait 90 mins for a bus that's scheduled every 15 mins in Cork, which will then get stuck in traffic because the lovely "quality" bus corridors are used for car parking 24/7. You'll hear similar from people in Limerick and Galway. The Midleton rail line still hasn't begun afaik, despite being promised for years. Suburbs like Ballincollig are still only covered by the hourly rural services despite being only a few km from the city centre.

Irish and Proud wrote:

More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar?

Ah yes, the days when people didn't need to commute from Drogedha.

Irish and Proud wrote:

With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

Is that what they told you in Ógra Fianna Fáil? Why then is Dublin Bus constantly saying that congestion is on the increase and buses are spending more and more time stuck in traffic? Why is Dublin Bus crying out for buses over and over if things are so great?

What about cyclists? Why has nothing been done to make Ireland's cities more cyclist friendly? The so called cycle lanes in Dublin are an absolute joke.

Irish and Proid wrote:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Where's the much needed and promised Navan rail line?

In fact, why is it, in the capital city of one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that public transport is still the "poor man's choice"?

Irish and Proud

Stark wrote:

Isn't Dublin great?

Didn't Dublin do well in a fairly recent study regarding the quality of life in European cities (BTW, Dublin is one of just four cities in Europe with a blue flag beach!).

Stark wrote:

I can still wait 90 mins for a bus that's scheduled every 15 mins in Cork, which will then get stuck in traffic because the lovely "quality" bus corridors are used for car parking 24/7. You'll hear similar from people in Limerick and Galway. The Midleton rail line still hasn't begun afaik, despite being promised for years. Suburbs like Ballincollig are still only covered by the hourly rural services despite being only a few km from the city centre.

Dublin is my city, so I'm in no position to comment.

Stark wrote:

Ah yes, the days when people didn't need to commute from Drogedha.

Nonsense! - I've been commuting on the Northern Suburban Line in 1993 when people were travelling from as far as Dundalk into Dublin. BTW, do people commute at midday on the trains that I mentioned - well, we learn something new every day! :rolleyes:

Stark wrote:

Is that what they told you in Ógra Fianna Fáil? Why then is Dublin Bus constantly saying that congestion is on the increase and buses are spending more and more time stuck in traffic? Why is Dublin Bus crying out for buses over and over if things are so great?

I didn't say I'm FF, I said I was voting for FF and PD in this election because I've no confidence in the alternative - not the same thing you know! Regarding Dublin Bus, every state company needs continuing investment, so of course that's what they'd say in order to avoid being squeezed out in December.

Stark wrote:

What about cyclists? Why has nothing been done to make Ireland's cities more cyclist friendly? The so called cycle lanes in Dublin are an absolute joke.

Do you cycle? I had a work colleague around 2000 who travelled from the southside to Clontarf, and he thought the cycle tracks were quite good! That said, I don't know myself - I just know that the cycle lanes/tracks in the city are quite extensive.

Stark wrote:

Where's the much needed and promised Navan rail line?

Have you any idea of what's involved in planning a rail line - the alignment (both horizontally and vertically) for such would be far less flexible than that for a motorway, so the planning process would be much more difficult. Also, railways per km were about four times the cost of motorways. In addition, much of the alignment for the former Navan rail has been erased by farmers etc, and in any case, the railway would have to serve more towns than it's predecessor in order to make it viable, so basically it's a job from square one!
But it's a nice easy project though! :rolleyes:

Stark wrote:

In fact, why is it, in the capital city of one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that public transport is still the "poor man's choice"?

Well, we didn't have much to start with in 1921 and with decades of under-investment since, it's not an easy fix for any government today. Most metro systems in cities like London and Paris have taken over a century to develop. And don't mention Madrid and its wonders - that city has a population (metropolitan area: 5.5m) bigger than Ireland's 4.25m - so how would it compare per capita?

I'll leave it there.

Stark

Irish_And_Proud wrote:

Didn't Dublin do well in a fairly recent study regarding the quality of life in European cities (BTW, Dublin is one of just four cities in Europe with a blue flag beach!).

I was being facetious when I said that. Dublin may have seen some improvements in the public transport area, but other cities sure haven't.

Irish And Proud wrote:

BTW, do people commute at midday on the trains that I mentioned - well, we learn something new every day!

Flexitime, shift working, part-time working, job sharing, the demise of the traditional 9-5 working day. Some of the trends in modern Ireland. Rush hour traffic has actually decreased over time despite the explosive increase in the number of people commuting by car. I'm sure they don't run empty trains just for the show of it.

Irish And Proud wrote:

Do you cycle?

I used to in Dublin when I lived near Clontarf. I don't anymore though, no decent routes where I live. Not a hope of cycling in Cork.

Irish And Proud wrote:

I just know that the cycle lanes/tracks in the city are quite extensive.

Correction. The figures are quite extensive. You can stick a sign on a footpath saying cyclists are allowed use the footpath and it counts towards the number of kilometres that the council quote. Doesn't mean it's suitable for use as cycle track though. In Cork, they relaid a load of footpaths and quoted it as "green route", green route meant to imply bus lanes and cycle lanes.

Irish And Proud wrote:

I didn't say I'm FF, I said I was voting for FF and PD in this election because I've no confidence in the alternative - not the same thing you know

I've no confidence in Fine Gael either, but that doesn't mean the sun shines out the ass of anything that's not FG.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Well, we didn't have much to start with in 1921 and with decades of under-investment since, it's not an easy fix for any government today. Most metro systems in cities like London and Paris have taken over a century to develop. And don't mention Madrid and its wonders - that city has a population (metropolitan area: 5.5m) bigger than Ireland's 4.25m - so how would it compare per capita?

Who says anything about Metro. Why can't the bus service be sorted out? There are places in Europe (Edinburgh and pretty much anywhere in Germany being two examples) where you could set your watch by the buses. They might be the exception rather than the rule, but I can easily stand at a stop in Dublin that sits on 3 bus routes, and not have a bus after waiting 20 mins. That means the service is less than 33% reliable. And I consider Dublin Bus to be premium service compared to the bus services in cities other than Dublin.

Funnily enough, the European cities with the worst bus services are those where the bus service was privatised. What do the PDs want to do? Privatise the bus service!

dowlingm

I think joint alignments of motorways and railways should be at least explored to keep down the costs of land CPOs and also if doubledecking is feasible in bridges/viaducts etc. Motorways are easier to put through than rail lines, granted, but that's something you can deal with by running the line either beneath or above the road to reduce grade change and let's face it we have a line that meanders beside a canal so following an M-way/HQDC can't be that hard.

Niall1234

Public transport and rail will never be the total solution for Irish transport that some people here think it is.

Interurban rail is fine. There is the population for it. But that is where it end. Ireland has the highest ratio of rural population to urban population in all of Europe. THis means that the population is more spread out and there are less centres of high population.

In other countries, rail is suitable, as a higher percentage of people are within 5 miles of a train station.

A decent road network will always be needed in Ireland is needed as rail will never be feasible on a scale as in other European countries.

Urban rail on the other hand is a different story.

DerekP11

Irish and Proud wrote:

Having used the Northern Commuter Line into Dublin many times, it's not a hard question. We've acquired a completely new set of railcars which are clean and quite efficient. We've seen most stations upgraded - longer platforms, new bridges, stairs, ramps and lifts. More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar? :rolleyes:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Oh please don't go on about 'no extra buses for Dublin', because it doesn't really stand up. With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

I'll leave it there.

Your understanding of rail transport in this country is on a par with Martin Cullen and FF. You are some spin Doctor. The Northern Commuter line is bursting at the seams. People are regularly fainting on dangerously overcrowded trains and many more are frequently left behind on the lovely long platforms you talk of.

FF and Luas? Try some facts that won't come across nearly as positive. In Government they are responsible for the fact that neither line is linked up and the project was delayed by years because of them.

New trains on the Cork line? What planet are you on when you speak of 125mph shortly? Firstly, we don't have any train capable of doing that speed. (not even the new ones you mention) The current loco hauling them can only do 100mph and the sections in which it can do that are very short. In fact Dublin Cork trains rarely hit the 100mph mark at any point. While the new trains were "designed" to travel at that speed, what we actually got was a bunch of carraiges that are hauled or pushed by a 13 year old loco. (in 1984 we bought carraiges capable of the same speed, but they never got there either) Furthermore these new carraiges will have to be "modified" before they can do 125 mph. The track has to be upgraded too. None of this has received or even been promised funding. Its an idea in the heads of IE management.

Don't spin your brains about rail, like some demented FF voter that has swallowed every piece of bull**** fed to you. For the record Im not affiliated to any political party and my vote was cast on the basis of getting some kind of reality applied to developing rail transport in this country. With FF or the PDs, I'd be wasting my time. Our rail network is still a shambles in terms of customer service, operation, reliability, speed and comfort. No amount of crap from Cullen and his bumchums can change that fact. When rail is discussed on radio, switchboards light up with horror stories. What your sweethearts in FF have delivered couild only have worked 20 years ago.

"A lot done, more to do".

"We're not there yet, but we're getting there".

Two slogans used by different entities around the time of the last election.

Get the picture? Or do I need to draw it for you?

dowlingm

Niall1234 - I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks it's the sole solution - but rail is way too little of the solution as it stands. Your reference to urban/rural ratios seems to me to be reminiscent of a census in the 1980s rather than the 2006 census, especially since Ireland is no longer urban or rural - suburban is a huge, new part of Irish demography.

bk

dowlingm wrote:

Niall1234 - I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks it's the sole solution - but rail is way too little of the solution as it stands. Your reference to urban/rural ratios seems to me to be reminiscent of a census in the 1980s rather than the 2006 census, especially since Ireland is no longer urban or rural - suburban is a huge, new part of Irish demography.

The problem is that the suburban is far too widely dispersed and low density to make rail suitable for many suburban areas.

Of course if their is an existing rail alignment, then you should do everything possible to make the best use of it, more frequent service, longer trains, park and ride facilities, etc.

However there are many areas where rail just won't make sense and those areas should have a good road infrastructure.

Metrobest

I'd say the election will be pretty tight, but I hope the current government will shade it, even if the support of independents were required (similar to the 1997-2002 Dail). If FG and Lab insist in saying that we've never had it so bad, they'd do well to look at their performance in the 1980's - when I see the large 'Vote Labour' on Liberty Hall, what comes to mind regarding public transport are strikes, non courteous staff, unreliability, non cleanliness etc.

I think Fine Gael and Labour have been given a loud and clear message. The public did not want a left-wing government and voted accordingly. Unfortunately, the public, faced with the prospect of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, voted in huge numbers for Fianna Fail as the face of the government, leaving the PDs in big trouble.

I'm disappointed to see the PDs share of the vote so reduced. Michael McDowell is the brighest politician of his generation and I know it's popular to dislike him but I am a big admirer of his courage and intellect. Having a strong PD presence in government has been central to bringing about Ireland's economic success and advancement, and I just hope that that can be sustained if the government takes on a very Green-Left hue.

I suppose the good news is FF/PDs may be able to cobble together a government with the independents, but the thought of a few parochial independents having a veto on things like the Dublin metro is not something that pleases me, but no doubt will thrill WRC supporters.

Metrobest

Stark wrote:

Funnily enough, the European cities with the worst bus services are those where the bus service was privatised!

Any stark statistics to prove that, or just another slice of empty rhetoric from you?

Irish and Proud

DerekP11 wrote:

Your understanding of rail transport in this country is on a par with Martin Cullen and FF. You are some spin Doctor. The Northern Commuter line is bursting at the seams. People are regularly fainting on dangerously overcrowded trains and many more are frequently left behind on the lovely long platforms you talk of.

FF and Luas? Try some facts that won't come across nearly as positive. In Government they are responsible for the fact that neither line is linked up and the project was delayed by years because of them.

New trains on the Cork line? What planet are you on when you speak of 125mph shortly? Firstly, we don't have any train capable of doing that speed. (not even the new ones you mention) The current loco hauling them can only do 100mph and the sections in which it can do that are very short. In fact Dublin Cork trains rarely hit the 100mph mark at any point. While the new trains were "designed" to travel at that speed, what we actually got was a bunch of carraiges that are hauled or pushed by a 13 year old loco. (in 1984 we bought carraiges capable of the same speed, but they never got there either) Furthermore these new carraiges will have to be "modified" before they can do 125 mph. The track has to be upgraded too. None of this has received or even been promised funding. Its an idea in the heads of IE management.

Don't spin your brains about rail, like some demented FF voter that has swallowed every piece of bull**** fed to you. For the record Im not affiliated to any political party and my vote was cast on the basis of getting some kind of reality applied to developing rail transport in this country. With FF or the PDs, I'd be wasting my time. Our rail network is still a shambles in terms of customer service, operation, reliability, speed and comfort. No amount of crap from Cullen and his bumchums can change that fact. When rail is discussed on radio, switchboards light up with horror stories. What your sweethearts in FF have delivered couild only have worked 20 years ago.

"A lot done, more to do".

"We're not there yet, but we're getting there".

Two slogans used by different entities around the time of the last election.

Get the picture? Or do I need to draw it for you?

Going by the above, you may not be politically affiliated to any party, but you certainly don’t come across to me as being exactly impartial in your viewpoints - Would I be right in guessing that you're ABFF? :eek: :rolleyes:

I maybe wrong about trains reaching 125mph, but I can assure you that the Northern Commuter Line which I regularly travel has improved vastly in the lifetime of the outgoing government - my sister travels on it everyday from Balbriggan (at rush hour) and says it's very busy, but OK. She also says that it’s rarely more than two minutes late - so there you go mate! I have travelled the LUAS several times and it's excellent - pity they didn't join up the two lines though, but what you conveniently omit is the fact that they joined the Red Line up to the DART at Connolly (not in the original plans), and will join the Green Line to both the Red Line and Maynooth Line. I hear that the Maynooth Line itself is way over capacity, but the Docklands station was built to allow more train schedules - these are being introduced in phases!

Finally, the tone of your reaction to me could only be described as extreme arrogance. If you have to rubbish and ridicule people with viewpoints contrary to yours, then that in itself signals a major flaw in your own argument! People who are confident in themselves see no need to put others down - not that I’d be a big enough fool to let you get to me!!!

That is all!

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

I think Fine Gael and Labour have been given a loud and clear message. The public did not want a left-wing government and voted accordingly. Unfortunately, the public, faced with the prospect of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, voted in huge numbers for Fianna Fail as the face of the government, leaving the PDs in big trouble.

I'm disappointed to see the PDs share of the vote so reduced. Michael McDowell is the brighest politician of his generation and I know it's popular to dislike him but I am a big admirer of his courage and intellect. Having a strong PD presence in government has been central to bringing about Ireland's economic success and advancement, and I just hope that that can be sustained if the government takes on a very Green-Left hue.

I suppose the good news is FF/PDs may be able to cobble together a government with the independents, but the thought of a few parochial independents having a veto on things like the Dublin metro is not something that pleases me, but no doubt will thrill WRC supporters.

Yes, indeed the outcome is very bad news for the PDs - they're not my first preference, but the party has helped in giving this country a more competitive edge. I would also have to admire Mary Harney, even if she's controversial, for standing by what she believes is right - ie. the nurses strike. Michael Mc Dowell, although temperamental at times, has handled the so-called Bertie scandal very well. He was also very gracious in his defeat - I don't like him that much, but fair play to him just the same! The current PDs in general have behaved a lot better in an FF coalition than Labour - when rifts appeared with FF, the PDs would take responsibility rather than pull out for political gain. Also, they did get a fair bit of influence, but didn't try to wag the dog - in my estimation, they were pretty fair in their dealings!

Now, there seem to be two clear options for FF: FF, PDs and 4 Ind; or FF and Greens. Both coalitions should accumulate 84 seats. The greens, as long the roads programme continues, might give an interesting dimension to Irish politics. FF have rarely allowed the tail to wag the dog in coalitions, so hopefully, our inter-urbans are safe, even if the Greens get in! What the independents will demand is anyone's guess.

I'll leave it there.