Have FF missed a great opportunity?

As more and more pundits conclude that the likeliest Government will be FF/Labour, I'm wondering have FF missed a golden chance to take a back seat for a while?

A move to the opposition benches would have seen a change of leader, a chance to take a back seat while the economy looks like it may cool down for some indefinite period, and they have always done very well in Opposition. This is the party that have always bounced back from Opposition superbly, have never lost two elections in a row. I think that taking a time out now (and with the alternative now looking like it will be a Rainbow of more and more diverse opinions, and a strong possibility of being short lived) might have been no bad thing. Though at least FF/Labour will mean Finance is not handed to Rabbitte. But would a return to Government only postpone a lashing at the polls?

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

As more and more pundits conclude that the likeliest Government will be FF/Labour, I'm wondering have FF missed a golden chance to take a back seat for a while?

A move to the opposition benches would have seen a change of leader, a chance to take a back seat while the economy looks like it may cool down for some indefinite period, and they have always done very well in Opposition. This is the party that have always bounced back from Opposition superbly, have never lost two elections in a row. I think that taking a time out now (and with the alternative now looking like it will be a Rainbow of more and more diverse opinions, and a strong possibility of being short lived) might have been no bad thing. Though at least FF/Labour will mean Finance is not handed to Rabbitte. But would a return to Government only postpone a lashing at the polls?

The other possibility is that even the three wise monkeys with the screwdrivers could do a better job than the incumbents. This is not a herculean feat when we see the shambles of everything elase but the purse strings.

Peripheral issues like the Failed Health System, overcrowded schools, pathetic Public Transport, M50 parking lot etc. are easily overshadowed with the Economy. The economy is having money in the coffers because it is not being spent where it should.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

The other possibility is that even the three wise monkeys with the screwdrivers could do a better job than the incumbents. This is not a herculean feat when we see the shambles of everything elase but the purse strings.

Peripheral issues like the Failed Health System, overcrowded schools, pathetic Public Transport, M50 parking lot etc. are easily overshadowed with the Economy. The economy is having money in the coffers because it is not being spent where it should.

Is this in the wrong thread?

I was referring to how FF bounce back from Opposition and whether it was a good time to be in Opposition. I'm sure I have seen health and education referred to in other threads.

Colonel Sanders

From a FF point of view a stint in the opposition benches might not be the worst thing to ever happen to the party. As you rightly say they have always bounced back and never lost 2 elections in a row. Even if predictions of a recssion are over exaggerated there will surely be a slow down of some sorts.

From a personal point of view I will vote for the opposition but if FF are returned will not be massively disappointed as we will see how they react and how the electorate react to an economic slowdown. It would also possibly result in an opposition consisting of a FG/PD alliance at best (in an ideal world my choice of government) and even worst case scenario a voting pact come the next election after this one.

Sleepy

For once, Conor74, I agree with you. With the economy taking a downturn and the mess the Fianna Fail / PD government have made of our public services, it would be a most opportune time for them to be on the other side of the house. Whoever wins this election will be tasked with cleaning up the incumbant's mess and failure to manage this herculean task will lead to the next government catching the flack for the incompetence we've seen over the last decade.

Heinrich

Sleepy wrote:

For once, Conor74, I agree with you. With the economy taking a downturn and the mess the Fianna Fail / PD government have made of our public services, it would be a most opportune time for them to be on the other side of the house. Whoever wins this election will be tasked with cleaning up the incumbant's mess and failure to manage this herculean task will lead to the next government catching the flack for the incompetence we've seen over the last decade.

Maybe not! If the incoming government lay bare the finances and progress that they inherit and have the balls to stick to their promises of more Gardai, hospital beds etc. we may see how they actually progress and if the progress is significant then they may even get a further mandate down the line.

Judging from your statement, you seem to hold that FF/PD have left a mess and failure. Would you then accept that the real culprits of this mess should not be able to shift responsibility to the newcomers?

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

Would you then accept that the real culprits of this mess should not be able to shift responsibility to the newcomers?

Ummmm, the possible newcomers think the finances are perfectly sound enough to guarantee 2300 beds, 2000 new Gardai, new transport initiatives etc. etc. Either that or they are lying and winging it.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

As more and more pundits conclude that the likeliest Government will be FF/Labour, I'm wondering have FF missed a golden chance to take a back seat for a while?

A move to the opposition benches would have seen a change of leader, a chance to take a back seat while the economy looks like it may cool down for some indefinite period, and they have always done very well in Opposition. This is the party that have always bounced back from Opposition superbly, have never lost two elections in a row. I think that taking a time out now (and with the alternative now looking like it will be a Rainbow of more and more diverse opinions, and a strong possibility of being short lived) might have been no bad thing. Though at least FF/Labour will mean Finance is not handed to Rabbitte. But would a return to Government only postpone a lashing at the polls?

Nice that you see the possibility of an economic downturn providing an advantage to your wonderful FF. Party of the people eh? Your attitude here is typical of your arrogant party who (having done so in the past) will never get my vote again. t would be ironic if the Alliance for Change got in and there was a downturn and FF did profit (probably literally) from it in the next election, given that FF profited from the economic upswing that the rainbow left it in 1997!

I was lied to by Bertie Ahern in the run up to the last GE and I voted FF. Never again. A far frm complete NDP 2000-2006 says all one needs to know about FF.

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

Nice that you see the possibility of an economic downturn providing an advantage to your wonderful FF.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I believe Fine Gael, Labour and others are seeking to gain a political advantage from problems in the health service, and anecdotes about individual cases of hardship.

I presume you have a thread somewhere expressing your outrage at those tactics. A link please?

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I believe Fine Gael, Labour and others are seeking to gain a political advantage from problems in the health service, and anecdotes about individual cases of hardship.

I presume you have a thread somewhere expressing your outrage at those tactics. A link please?

They haven't had their hands on the levers for 10 years. The people have worked hard and delivered the taxes to Bertie. He has squandered vast amounts of it on electronic voting, PPARS etc. etc. NDP 2000-2006 incomplete. Nuff said.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

As more and more pundits conclude that the likeliest Government will be FF/Labour, I'm wondering have FF missed a golden chance to take a back seat for a while?

A move to the opposition benches would have seen a change of leader, a chance to take a back seat while the economy looks like it may cool down for some indefinite period, and they have always done very well in Opposition. This is the party that have always bounced back from Opposition superbly, have never lost two elections in a row. I think that taking a time out now (and with the alternative now looking like it will be a Rainbow of more and more diverse opinions, and a strong possibility of being short lived) might have been no bad thing. Though at least FF/Labour will mean Finance is not handed to Rabbitte. But would a return to Government only postpone a lashing at the polls?

Ahh Conor letting the mask slip a little.
So are we admitting that economy is shakey, but I thought FF had done a wonderful job and it was all down to them.
Nothing at all to do with cheap credit over last 5 years ehhh?
I thought no one can be trusted with the economy but FF/PDs ?

Surely FF would want to be in power to steer the country through it's difficult times rather than sit on the sidelines and complain when others have to make the difficult decisions?

The only reason I would like to see the incumbents regain power, is purely to see Ahern, Cowen and Muppet No1 explain to the electorate, how the value of their houses have dropped and the magnificent economy has fallen apart when the construction industry boom grinds to a halt.
Reap what you sow and all that.

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

Ummmm, the possible newcomers think the finances are perfectly sound enough to guarantee 2300 beds, 2000 new Gardai, new transport initiatives etc. etc. Either that or they are lying and winging it.

They have been told that the money is there so how they spend that money will be the issue.

Now if the money is not there then they will have been lied to. Either way something will get done!

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

So are we admitting that economy is shakey, but I thought FF had done a wonderful job and it was all down to them.

Its not black and white, it's not 'good economy or bad economy'. Though there have been periods of 'world's worst economy' in the past under FG and Labour...

Countries can experience economic slowdown while remaining strong. In any event, FG have promised 2300 new beds, 2000 extra gardai etc. etc. so they believe the current incumbents have made enough of the economy to promise high spending.

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

Its not black and white, it's not 'good economy or bad economy'. Though there have been periods of 'world's worst economy' in the past under FG and Labour...

Countries can experience economic slowdown while remaining strong. In any event, FG have promised 2300 new beds, 2000 extra gardai etc. etc. so they believe the current incumbents have made enough of the economy to promise high spending.

No sir, the incumbents have squirrelled the money by not spending it on what it was taxed from the electorate for. Now in my book I would prefer to have proper healthcare etc. than a load of money in the coffers.

Seriously ill people do not give a damn about the economy. (Just another comment for you to twist around)

road_high

Isn't this thread slightly premature??! The election hasn't taken place but yet the FF heads are on about a missed opp of opposition!!
FF want power at all costs in my opinion. They sicken me with their arrogance. I say give the other crowd a chance.The smugness of Cowen et al borders on that of a Dictatorship regime.

As regards the main function of a govt in my opinion is to spend our taxes as well as possible. In this regard FF have failed dismally. Get them out I say!

PH01

It's like what happened in '94 after the FF Labour collapse, Bertie used the time in opposition to rebuild and reposition the party.
It might be time to do that again.

However, events have conspired against FF in this election. Try as they might to lose this election with a lack luster campaign, the alternative seem to have failed to convince the electorate that a FF lead government is a bad idea.

mfitzy

mfitzy wrote:

FF want power at all costs in my opinion.

I presume this is an injection of humour.

'Power at all costs'. Lets me see now, I can think of one block running around trying to convince people who vote Fine Gael, Labour, the Greens and probably Independants too that they really do all share a common ideology! NOw THAT'S a hunger for 'power at all costs'.

Heinrich wrote:

(Just another comment for you to twist around)

Can someone please explain how this is relevant to the thread?

Macy

Deleted User wrote:

As more and more pundits conclude that the likeliest Government will be FF/Labour, I'm wondering have FF missed a golden chance to take a back seat for a while?

If it's not to be the alternative, hopefully it'll FF/PD and independents. Let them reap what they've sown. Then I'd hope for a similar fate for FF as happened to the Tories after they pulled 1992 out of the fire.

As for the individual spending plans, firstly there's not much difference, and secondly are they not all costed based on figures supplied by the Government controlled Dept of Finance and other agencies? Have the Government misrepresented the state they've left the economy in?

OTK

FF are very strong in opposition. They fight every government proposal tooth and nail whether they believe it is good for the country or not. They promise the world to every disaffected special interest group. They seem to capture the headlines far more frequently than FG or Labour could manage. They fight hard, they fight dirty and people lap it up and re-elect them.

I doubt a coalition would last long in the face of this onslaught. The economic cycle timing is perfect for FF in opposition.

It is some consolation if FF win that they won't be able to blame a crash in the construction sector on somebody else.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

Its not black and white, it's not 'good economy or bad economy'. Though there have been periods of 'world's worst economy' in the past under FG and Labour...

Countries can experience economic slowdown while remaining strong. In any event, FG have promised 2300 new beds, 2000 extra gardai etc. etc. so they believe the current incumbents have made enough of the economy to promise high spending.

Conor stopped shifting back to when times were bad under FG/Lab.
Times were bad also under a hell of a lot of FF regimes.
If you want we can all go back to the bad ould days of the 1930s or 1950s when for most of the time FF were in power.

If FG/Lab are promising things, what are FF promising ?
Old age pensions upto €300, how much was it on a SSIA style pension scheme?

So if FF know that the money won't be there and the fact that there may be a major bust around the corner why are they not saying it?
Why are they telling us how wonderful they have been and how wonderful they are going to be?

Granted apart from Greens, it appears no party is giving any warning about future economy.

From reading your other posts concerning housing boom, I would say we both agree that the economy is on shaky ground, since it is so tied up in residential construction and the property boom.
And I think all major parties know this, they are all trying to ignore it and hope some miracle comes along.

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote:

Ummmm, the possible newcomers think the finances are perfectly sound enough to guarantee 2300 beds, 2000 new Gardai, new transport initiatives etc. etc. Either that or they are lying and winging it.

do you always deliberately miss the point? We all know the money is there, and we all know its being squandered.

brianthebard

brianthebard wrote:

We all know the money is there, and we all know its being squandered.

I know there is a ball of money there. I know it was made during the present Government's watch. I know some of it was squandered. I know that happens in every other democracy in the world but life goes on and people don't flog themselves and whinge 24/7 over it. It's just the way things go.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

I know some of it was squandered. I know that happens in every other democracy in the world but life goes on and people don't flog themselves and whinge 24/7 over it. It's just the way things go.

ROFL are you for real Conor? I see the arrogance of FF seems to extend to its fan-boi base as well .....

it matters a great deal that money is being squandered. It matters because in order to stop such waste we have to ask why and where it's being squandered. More to the point, we wont have such prosperity forever, so money needs to be well spent *NOW*

So yes, it very much f*cking matters as a matter of fact .....

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

ROFL are you for real Conor? I see the arrogance of FF seems to extend to its fan-boi base as well .....
...
So yes, it very much f*cking matters as a matter of fact .....

Between the personal comments and the swearing I may have missed a point.

What were you trying to say again?

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

Between the personal comments and the swearing I may have missed a point.

What were you trying to say again?

According to his post containing the horrific swearing he said:

it matters a great deal that money is being squandered. It matters because in order to stop such waste we have to ask why and where it's being squandered. More to the point, we wont have such prosperity forever, so money needs to be well spent *NOW*

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Between the personal comments and the swearing I may have missed a point.

What were you trying to say again?

Ah ... the auld selective quotation comes out again ... post the full quote Conor and perhaps you might not miss the bit you miraculously managed to meticulously delete and not read.

Or alternatively read Heinrich's reply above ^^ (which gave me a chuckle)

rollie

This thread has jumped the gun by a fair bit....never listen to polls. Also labour are only going into power in the event of the sinn fein swingvote....which depends on alot of factors.

I'm just one of these niave voters that tries to vote for the benifit of the country...regradless of party (damn me and everyone like me).

So by that matter anyone in FF should be fighting tooth and nail to be given the oppertunity to fix the existing problems, not be thinking about hiding away from the real problems in opposition, and i think to a large extent they are doing this (although they are smug about it).

Well if you like the personal comments and the swearing, I knew you'd love the posting in capitalised red lettering to make a not so subtle point.

In any event let's try and get back on topic and maybe observe some 'netiquette' in doing so?

Either way, I didn't say that squandering didn't matter.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Well if you like the personal comments and the swearing, I knew you'd love the posting in capitalised red lettering to make a not so subtle point.

In any event let's try and get back on topic and maybe observe some 'netiquette' in doing so?

You can keep your 'netiquette' to yourself Conor. I couldn't care less what you think or whether or not I've offended some sensibility of yours. I hold you (and always have done) with utter contempt due to your unabashed and blind support for a political party. You're not the first, and sadly you wont be the last.

I chose to use a swear-word to emphasis the point I was making given the absolute dismissive stance you feigned, just like Beeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrtie did last week. Funny that ... I guess it goes back to this whole notion of "blind support".

Either way, I didn't say that squandering didn't matter.

Really? Well lets take a look again shall we?

Deleted User wrote:

I know some of it was squandered. I know that happens in every other democracy in the world but life goes on and people don't flog themselves and whinge 24/7 over it. It's just the way things go.

I've highlighted the relevant bit. In short, you did not say directly that squandering didn't matter, but you very much inferred it with innuendo and imagary of people "moaning about nothing".

Incidentally, that money squandered HAS cost lives. It HAS made some people's lives a misery, and to then dismiss concerns as "whinging" is disgusting. But again, I guess that's a "blind support" thing combined with the seemingly _vile_ arrogance being displayed by FF these days.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

I hold you (and always have done) with utter contempt

murphaph

Just out of curiosity Conor, should FF get back in and the economy take this downturn, will YOU accept FF as being responsible?

stepbar

Deleted User wrote:

I know some of it was squandered. I know that happens in every other democracy in the world but life goes on and people don't flog themselves and whinge 24/7 over it. It's just the way things go.

Mind you, Noel Dempsey said the same thing of the e-voting debacle. :rolleyes:

thebman

murphaph wrote:

Just out of curiosity Conor, should FF get back in and the economy take this downturn, will YOU accept FF as being responsible?

Nah just like Bertie with electronic voting, it'll be the oppositions fault for questioning them! If they hadn't held us up, we would easily have been able to rig the election, I mean introduce electronic voting.

BTW anyone who works in IT or has any idea about computers knows that FF are either so unbelievably dumb when it comes to technology that they didn't know the machines were useless because of security holes or where trying to organise a way to rig elections.

In either case their inability to admit their mistake is sickening and should be punished by kicking them out of government IMO. As I work in IT, I want a government that understands it and this government has a 10 year track record, proving it hasn't a clue.

AidoCQS

This whole thread is emblematic of how FF put their careers and electioneering ahead of real issues that real people have to deal with

brim4brim

brim4brim wrote:

FF are either so unbelievably dumb when it comes to technology

Yeah, I think it's Bertie himself who makes all the calls on computers, not some civil servants...:D

Man, the vitriol here gets stronger and stronger!

Agent J

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, I think it's Bertie himself who makes all the calls on computers, not some civil servants...:D

Man, the vitriol here gets stronger and stronger!

Cullen should be publically flogged with a stripped CAT5 cable for his role in it.

Bertie is guilty of shifting the blame and misrepresenting the french elections with reguard to the pencils remark

Agent J

Agent J wrote:

misrepresenting the french elections with reguard to the pencils remark

Is that a hanging offence? Oh for the good old days when people who misrepresented French elections and made pencil remarks were burned at the stake...

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, I think it's Bertie himself who makes all the calls on computers, not some civil servants...:D

Man, the vitriol here gets stronger and stronger!

The reason a lot of people, particularly those not employed by public sector, are pis*ed off is because they see in their daily working lives people taking responsiblility.
A concept alien to both the government and the public sector.

Bertie may quote JFK but there is no damm way he will ever quote Harry Truman "The buck stops here".

You may make a joke about the e-voting, rather typical of FF.
FF/PDs pushed it even though there were lots of experts and non-experts stating it was flawed.
So yes, the Taoiseach and government were at fault for wasting taxpayers money on a system, and also continuing to waste the money by having to pay for the storage of same useless devices.

But to add insult to injury, Bertie then berates anybody that questions his e-voting debacle and accuses them of being ludities.

Regarding PPARS some managers in HSE should be fired for toalt incompetence or else fraud.
The project should have been pulled years ago. Bu yet again Bertie has stated that it was a success because it did work to a fashion. Yes eventually after being hugely over budget and delayed by 5 odd years.

Agent J

I said he was guilty of it. I never said what should be done with him. If you want to suggest hanging... by all means.

Ahern is guilty of not sticking his hands up and admitting that they got it wrong.

Which they did. Extremely so.

He also went on to say that the french has e voting and they has results in hours. They didnt. It took days and was only a small amount of the electorate voting that way. We also have the recent scottish examples of when things screw up and need i even mention the US.

If you wish defend the Evoting system then by all means go ahead......

stepbar

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, I think it's Bertie himself who makes all the calls on computers, not some civil servants...:D

Man, the vitriol here gets stronger and stronger!

Martin Cullen??? Whose boss is Bertie??? Why didnt Bertie sack Cullen? Ah no, give him another job.... in transport. Well done Bertie :rolleyes:

jmayo

jmayo wrote:

A concept alien to both the government and the public sector.

I work in the private sector.

Hasn't it been a great 10 years all round?

It wasn't so long ago when the Irish private sector meant a building site in Cricklewood.

Agent J

Deleted User wrote:

I work in the private sector.

Hasn't it been a great 10 years all round?

It wasn't so long ago when the Irish private sector meant a building site in Cricklewood.

Can FF ever admit they got something wrong?

Agent J

Agent J wrote:

Can FF ever admit they got something wrong?

You haven't read my posts.

I've often said FF got things wrong, many things. I said Bertie should have gone last year. But I could say it 100 times, and I'll still get someone who doesn't know the first thing about FF (except that they hate them) saying 'you lot blindly follow Bertie and you lot never admit mistakes'...

Agent J

I have read some of your posts and to be fair you arent exactly on par with some of other blindly led FF on this board.

However what i really mean is FF leadership.

There are a few glaring cock-ups in the last ten years that someone should have been fired for and not just moved minstery.

I dont hate FF. I like some of the stuff they have brought in and done. However its when something goes wrong and this ingrained attitude that no one need resign.. we'll just move them around. It drives me mad. In the private sector it wouldnt be allowed happen. I'm still very pissed of with the actions right after the last election.

To be honest im still trying to figure out the difference between FF & FG......

Agent J

Agent J wrote:

There are a few glaring cock-ups in the last ten years that someone should have been fired for and not just moved minstery.

I completely agree. FF should have clamped down on those incompetents that bring the party down. In fairness to FG, when Phil Hogan made the budget speech mistake a few years back, he went straight away.

Agent J wrote:

In the private sector it wouldnt be allowed happen.

Again, I agree.

But then again, would the likes of Cullen and Roche get a job in the private sector in the first place?

Agent J wrote:

To be honest im still trying to figure out the difference between FF & FG......

We did better on the North! But apart from that, even if they can't get into bed with each other, it's high time the two parties started fumbling around with each other anyway.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote:

It wasn't so long ago when the Irish private sector meant a building site in Cricklewood.

At least of you fell off the scaffolding you'd not be waiting on a trolley in A&E.

Anyway, can you answer my question. Here it is again:

If the economy goes south following a FF election victory, will you accept that as being FF's fault?

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

I work in the private sector.

Hasn't it been a great 10 years all round?

It wasn't so long ago when the Irish private sector meant a building site in Cricklewood.

If I recall from a thread quite some time ago, where I had the misfortune to come across your posts for the first time, you mentioned something about being involved with the construction industry.

I could be mistaken .. but I do seem to recall you bleating on about all the new 4x4s sitting in FF driveways or something equally banal during the course of it all.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, I think it's Bertie himself who makes all the calls on computers, not some civil servants...:D

The minister placed the order for the full batch of e-voting machines against the advice of his senior civil servants. No passing the buck please.

marie_85

Agent J wrote:

To be honest im still trying to figure out the difference between FF & FG......

One of them has a contract... you may have missed it though, it was a very understated idea. Their leader really should have mentioned it more :rolleyes:

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

ROFL are you for real Conor? I see the arrogance of FF seems to extend to its fan-boi base as well

Lemming wrote:

it very much f*cking matters

Lemming wrote:

You can keep your 'netiquette' to yourself Conor. I couldn't care less what you think or whether or not I've offended some sensibility of yours.

Lemming wrote:

I hold you (and always have done) with utter contempt

Lemming wrote:

I had the misfortune to come across your posts for the first time

Wow.

Wowoweewee.

PM me your hate stuff. Let's keep this forum for politics.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

Wow.

Wowoweewee.

PM me your hate stuff. Let's keep this forum for politics.

And in typical Conor74 style, avoiding the question by attempting to sling mud combined with the usual selective quotation. It's nice to see you can cut and paste deary, but it wears after a while.

*clap*

*clap*

*clap*

So Conor74 ... would you care to answer the question on whether or not you are connected to the construction industry?