Low Content:Speech play- Did I cross the line?

ollyk1

Opinions please

Last night in the SE playing the Wednesday €95 tournie

I'm having a great time and there is plenty of conversation at the table (including me singing :eek: , Harold talking about the war, peoples memories of when they were 7...etc etc)

An irregular female player in the SE (a nice girl who a lot of people would know to see) sits down on my left and tells me how she's being bluffing all night and that she is loving it. Normally she is a pretty tight player but one capable of making a big call and going with her reads, i've seen her make calls with a weak mid pair based on a tell and making laydowns with some pretty big hands. However, tonight she is letting off a bit of steam and having some fun.

I bluff her off a pot and then a little later she bluffs me off a pot and jams j2o in my eye. We're all laughing and the table is in good form (at one point she even accused me of being handsome to try and embarress me or something:eek: ).

The this hand comes up.

I've raised and taken down 2 of the last 4 pots preflop and now I get KdKh utg+1

I make a standard 3 BBs raise and she flat calls behind with ~13BBs behind. Everyone else folds

Flop comes 9 high with 2 clubs and I lead out for 2/3rds pot and she flat calls leaving approx half her starting stack before the hand behind.

Up to this point I haven't issued a word other than "raise" in the hand.

The turn comes an Ac and I dwell for a bit. It's a bit or a horrible card but not that I'm scared of it more likely it'll prove to be an action killer.

On the flop I really felt she had an overpair not an Ax type hand and with that turn card she doesn't look too happy. I decide to push all-in as she is the sort of player who will slow down now and I don't want some JcJx hand getting there on the river for free. Plus she might make a hero call if she thinks I'm pushing because I don't think I can win the hand any other way.

She starts to dwell up for about 40 seconds and is giving me a serious staredown.

I'm giving it the calm stare ahead job followed by a quick glower in her direction. Before I realise what I'm doing I say "That Ace saved you".

I normally wouldn't say anything but in this case I probably felt it was worth a shot as its obvious to me at this stage she has TT-QQ with no clubs. I wasn't being premeditated but I do occasionally talk in spots like this to confuse the opponent and give them something to justify a call with.

In mitigation I learned a lot of my live poker in the Fitz where speech play headsup is allowed as long as its not offensive. The SE have a ban on speech play but between regulars headsup it tends to be ignored (3 way it is most definitely not allowed something I 100% agree with). You couldn't call this person a regular though.

Just after I uttered the words I remeber that this lady once asked for someones hand to be ruled dead after someone tried on some speech play in a hand (I read about it a year ago on boards).

Anyway she gets quite upset about my comment and the dealer affirms that no speech play is allowed and I don't say another word while all this is going on.

She finally folds.

Was I

a) totally out of order?
b) a little bit out of order?
c) FFS if you didn't want to talk during the game go play in a monastery with some monks who have taken a vow of silence.

I'd appreciate some views (especially from SE regulars) as she got pretty upset for a while but then calmed down a bit and seemed to have let it pass until I got priced in to dog her shortstack all-in with AQ with QJ with a jack on the river!! I run goot on the doggings!!

BigCityBanker

ollyk1 wrote:

(at one point she even accused me of being handsome to try and embarress me or something:eek: ).

she bluffs too much :rolleyes:

ollyk1 wrote:

c) FFS if you didn't want to talk during the game go play in a monastery with some monks who have taken a vow of silence.

as above

5starpool

OK, as a non SE regular I have to go with option C. Reassess your mental conclusion of her, and ignore her in future if she is like that. Sounds petty to me, and petty people are my least favourite types to play against.

WH BONNEY

Its C for me every time.

This is just another example of why women should not be allowed in card rooms.

careca

I'm not a SE regular, but I find it strange that you can't use speechplay at all (I agree with 3 handed being banned). I would have thought this was 100% part and parcel of the game.

Saying that, if you knew it wasn't allowed you made a mistake because your hand could have been declared dead.

Terrible decision by management though to bring in this rule

Glowingmind

It's a weird one, as you said above, the SE tends to be pretty lax about this between regulars (and i think this is a good thing).

From what you said, she seemed to be pretty chatty at the table, and i think this pretty much opens things up for you to be allowed to say what you did.

If you said it to me i'd have no problem with it, but then part of the reason i like playing live is because of the banter involved.

If she'd been sitting there there whole time keeping to herself then i think it may have been more of an issue.

bubbleking

yeah def c

it would be a different story if you said only a women could call that etc etc

bops

i hate the ban on speechplay in the SE - it completely sucks - especially heads up - i can sorta see the reasons behind it in a multiway pot (only sorta mind you)

anyway speechplay is a massive tool in poker strategy imo - it's a great way to gather info as well as give it - probably the latter is mose dangerous.

this happens to be the main reason why i don't attend many tourneys in the SE - i only bother going up to the big ones - the 2nd last time i played there i got 3 warnings for opening my mouth - in fairness to them i was breaking their rules - but quite frankly their rules suck! - i like the SE, nice place, soft games, well run, etc etc - but this 1 rule is what deters me

complete overkill imo - it ruins a good game and takes away a basic element of poker warfare

eoghan104

I didnt realise that speech play wasnt allowed in the SE and I think thats bad. I dont know why clubs are changing all these rules about the game that have been around for decades. Its the same with not being able to show your opponent a card of yours when heads up........ its ridiculous I think.

Olly I think what you did was fine but if the rules say there is no speechplay allowed then you should be more carefull........

bops

BTW - your hand will never be declared dead in this situation - you'll get a ten minute penalty afaik

sickpuppy

I think this one firmly belongs in C.Your not a bad skin you were not beinga prick about it.Speech along the lines of e g player not involved two guys in apot one bets random drunk not in hand dats abluff, that speech play should be hammered upon.I have in my 3 years of play in dub never seen anyone punished for speech play.I dont know what sort of punishment it warrants.But when people not even in the hand talk that is wrong if atourny a time ban perhaps?Hu i think abit of waffling is fine showing cards saying what u have is not.

sendic

at one point she even accused me of being handsome

was she bluffing?

im not sure its good practice by the SE to have one rule for regulars and one for nonregulars.

But if the rule is no speechplay, then you were out of order. (technically)

Primewise

The SE have some good rules and generally stick to them which keeps things in good order, but I REALLY wish the SE would lift the ban on heads up speech play…

Heads up speech play is a normal part of poker!! Its all part of the fun of tells and deception.

Go online if you want to purely play the cards and betting.


Can we make polls on boards.ie ? I wish we could get SE to change the rule…

ollyk1

LOL. Stick a low content sticker on your thread and get 11 replies in as many minutes!

Those of you who said I should be more careful you are of course 100% right.

As soon as I said it I was cursing myself because against anyone else with whom I was having some banter, it wouldn't be a problem, and it's part of the fun of live play but against this lady (and probably female players in general with one or two notable exceptions) I'll be keeping my mouth shut whilst playing in future!

BigCityBanker

so Olly did you ask her out or not?

Daithio

bops wrote:

i hate the ban on speechplay in the SE - it completely sucks - especially heads up - i can sorta see the reasons behind it in a multiway pot (only sorta mind you)

anyway speechplay is a massive tool in poker strategy imo - it's a great way to gather info as well as give it - probably the latter is mose dangerous.

Agree totally with that. I don't use it because I suck at it but you can get loads of info from fools who think they are speechplaying but in fact are just telling you their holding.

All these rules which try to ban needling, like the 'show one show both' rule are a load of bull****. It's a poker game ffs.

Daniel Negreanu said something about it on his most recent blog entry and for once he made some sense.

Ste05

Yeah, I find the rule odd too TBH, I'm certainly not a regular in the SE, having played exactly 2 tournaments in there in my life, but I remember when I was playing in that Full Tilt satellite a few months back, I was in a hand heads up and some guy started talking to me while I was making a decision, and he was warned very harshly by the dealer that no speech play was allowed, I actually didn't mind it and would have preferred to let him rabbit on, but he immediately apologised and was genuinely sorry for doing it, I found it very odd indeed, but I suppose thems the rules.

But I'd certainly be in the (c) camp. But it's probably just from a selfish point of view as I'd prefer someone to talk away to me ... the more info he wants to give away the better in my books.

ollyk1

BigCityBanker wrote:

so Olly did you ask her out or not?

Don't be a hater Noel. Hate the game not the playa!!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RasTa

Isn't there a no speechplay rule in the Fitz?

phantom_lord

RasTa wrote:

Isn't there a no speechplay rule in the Fitz?

yup. at least there was when I played there.

Tar.Aldarion

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I hate the "no speechplay" rule in the SE.

I despise the "show one show both" rule in the Fitz.


I want people to throw around information. And I would like it to be encouraged. Makes it easier to beat them.

If you show one card, you have to show both there?
That would suck.

smurph

Few Things about this post that disturbs me immensly.

1. I never knew anything about the no speechplay rule in the S.E. I see alot of people doing it it's part of the game for god sake. Very silly rule, Speechplay is part of the game, and a useful weapon to get tells if used properly..

I hate people commenting on hands when they are not in the pot and that happens an awful lot in the S.E., Vera is a repeat offender of this. I lost a massive pot a couple of weeks ago against a guy, the next hand I went all in my remaining chips with As7s, and Vera (not in the hand) say "that's a bluff, colettes obviously steaming". Naturally I was called by aces which I cracked with a flush.

ollyk1 wrote:

As soon as I said it I was cursing myself because against anyone else with whom I was having some banter, it wouldn't be a problem, and it's part of the fun of live play but against this lady (and probably female players in general with one or two notable exceptions) I'll be keeping my mouth shut whilst playing in future!

This is a bit of a silly comment tbh Ollyk1. Why treat Female players differently just becaus one of them acted this way. I will take your chips whatever chance I get, and have no problem doing it, so why should you have a problem with the speechplay bit, just because im a female player. TBH I would never call a ruling on getting hand declared dead because of speechplay. The Lady in question needs to grow a thicker skin and not be so petty......

By way I go with C on this.

Anyway if you feel bad about it go hug or tree or something.

phantom_lord

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If you show one card, you have to show both there?
That would suck.

muck one. show the other. simp simp simple.

ollyk1

smurph wrote:

Few Things about this post that disturbs me immensly.

That's a stronger then expected reaction

smurph wrote:

1. I never knew anything about the no speechplay rule in the S.E. I see alot of people doing it it's part of the game for god sake. Very silly rule, Speechplay is part of the game, and a useful weapon to get tells if used properly..

I hate people commenting on hands when they are not in the pot and that happens an awful lot in the S.E., Vera is a repeat offender of this. I lost a massive pot a couple of weeks ago against a guy, the next hand I went all in my remaining chips with As7s, and Vera (not in the hand) say "that's a bluff, colettes obviously steaming". Naturally I was called by aces which I cracked with a flush.

She's been bang out of order on this sort of thing a number of times. I have said it to her on occasion. I 100% disagree with players not in the hand commentating on the hand/reacting/involving themselves. I disagree with 3 way speech play.

smurph wrote:

This is a bit of a silly comment tbh Ollyk1. Why treat Female players differently just becaus one of them acted this way. I will take your chips whatever chance I get, and have no problem doing it, so why should you have a problem with the speechplay bit, just because im a female player. TBH I would never call a ruling on getting hand declared dead because of speechplay. The Lady in question needs to grow a thicker skin and not be so petty......

Anyway if you feel bad about it go hug or tree or something.

You were foremost in my mind under the exceptions rule to be fair Smurph!!

I expressed myslef a bit sloppily here. I have had one similar overreaction (imho) and it was from a female player as well and in that case I was 100% within my rights to talk as it was headsup in the Fitz. The fact she lost the hand didn't help her remain calm either but you are right generalisations are bad but I guess its good to err on the side of caution is all I'm saying.

I felt this lady could handle a bit of banter at the table and had been good naturedly ribbing me up to this point. A little bit of a needle in a hand headsup is part of the game imho but she then went and flipped out. Having said that maybe it was due to other issues because she was playing live to blow off some steam so maybe some tilt resurfaced in this hand.

As for feeling bad, i handed out the dogging later on with the same enthusaism i always do so don't worry it wasn't keeping me awake!!

smurph

I wasn't necesarrily getting at you Olly, but I do feel that it was silly for her to get so annoyed with your comment. You were just saying what she should have been thinking especially if your read was right and she had Q's or J's etc.,

The Ace was a disaster card for her (and potentially you), and she made a good laydown.

What I was mainly refering to by say that I was immensly disturbed is at he Speechplay rule itself. Im sure that I have used speechplay more than once in a game, when heads up with someone. Is this applicable in the cash game aswell, because im definitely in the sin bin there.

Now, as bops pointed out in another Thread, ive to go now and clean something.:cool:

sickpuppy

With the non combatants prompting in hands olly and smurph what can be done in your opinions, have u ever seen aplayer get ten mins in the sin bin so to speak.It is much more frequent in the cash games so 10mins out of the cash game wouldnt hurt them ina tourney it would.But then you would have complaints its like baby school so what can be done about these mouthy uninvolved players?

smurph

sickpuppy wrote:

With the non combatants prompting in hands olly and smurph what can be done in your opinions, have u ever seen aplayer get ten mins in the sin bin so to speak.It is much more frequent in the cash games so 10mins out of the cash game wouldnt hurt them ina tourney it would.But then you would have complaints its like baby school so what can be done about these mouthy uninvolved players?

I actually don't know what kind of penalty could be imposed tbh. Now sometimes new players to the Casino might innocently comment on the hand while it is going on, but it' usually explained to them what they did wrong after the hand. Repeat offenders need to be stopped and I feel that maybe a warning by the Dealer, and after 2 warnings there should be a 10 minute penalty + a percentage of their stack maybe taken away. The only thing about the 2 warning rule is that the Dealer would have to make sure that they tell the new dealer coming to the table etc.,

It is a tough one, and would probably be a nightmare to enforce, because there would be a difference in Chips at the end of the night in relation to entrants to the Event, etc., God who'd be a tournament director.

5starpool

Yep, I have never seen any kind of penalty invoked in more than 3 years playing in Dublin. There are loads of players as well who comment on what they threw away during a hand, and without wanting to be accused of generalisation it is mostly older players, and a large % of the older women who play, that do this.

This may well be due to their past in 5 card draw where you don't know what anyone had until the end and then it might be discussed in a friendly manner (just a wild guess obviously), and they still feel they can do it now when they see the first cards available to them.

I rarely use speech play, but as said above, I like people to use it on me as more often than not, depending on the player and your experience with them, it helps define their hand better.

Marq

ollyk1 wrote:

I make a standard 3 BBs raise and she flat calls behind with ~13BBs behind.

lol donkaments.

Primewise

You can say what you like in the Fitz, as long as your heads up.... which is the way it should be.

The other SE rules are good though. The dealers are quick and move the game on quickly, which is good

BigCityBanker

charlesanto

smurph wrote:

I hate people commenting on hands when they are not in the pot and that happens an awful lot in the S.E.,

Maddens me too, :mad: very common occurrence at the cash tables by people who post here :mad: :mad: :mad:

Cuban Son

Hi guys,

Paul F here, I deal in the Fitz and a noob when it comes to posting.
Just to let you know who I am.;)
Please don't be too hard on me.:)

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I hate the "no speechplay" rule in the SE.

This is a strange rule as speech play has always been part of the game. But as you all know the rules vary from place to place and should be respected.
Olly is right though in saying that this woman takes it a bit too much to heart but she is definitly within here rights to object. Sounds like shes angle shooting, but I can't see how anyone can have their hand declared dead for a minor infringement.

It'd be different if say the ace hits on the turn and you lean into her, nose to nose, with a wild glazed expression, drooling from the side of the mouth and in your best Dirty Harry voice say "That ace saved you".
Then ask the whole table "Am I right, yeah you know i'm right"? While high fiving them all and chanting "Olly,Olly, Olly".
She might have a case then.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I despise the "show one show both" rule in the Fitz.

The rule here Lloyd is 'show one show all'. It is double edged, as in if you show one person your cards the rest of the table are entitled to see them and yes, if you turn one of your cards over someone can request to see the other
card.
Best way to avoid this is don't show any cards or if you think about it, just muck the card you don't want to show and flip the other one over and say "go fish".:p

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

fcuking noobs.

Cuban Son

You know yourself lloyd, you are going to do a certain amount of advertising in any session, but I know its annoying when you show an 'honest card' and are asked to show the other by the guy at the end of the table with the hoodie and baseball cap and sunglasses and ipod and, and, and- see where i'm going with this?
Really though its only one card. if they want to see it that badly, ask the dealer for a pen, autograph the damn thing and fling it Chris Ferguson style at the guy. Aim for the throat.;)

I agree with smurf though, when it comes to people commenting on hands in play-this annoys me.
Or when theres an all in and a call and Ak and QQ is flipped over and someone says 'I folded an Ace' and someone else goes 'i had KQ'.
Come on, give the guys a chance, they're tournament/dough is on the line and you're sitting there happily killing their outs. ffs

ianmc38

I like a bit of speechplay as much as the next guy and think it's ridiculous that its not allowed in the SE. I wouldnt say the rule is too stricly enforced either.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

jimmii

I thought that most European clubs no speech play ban only referred to the actual naming of your hole cards as oppossed to the the states where in some places it is accepted. Its part and parcel of the game. Imagine Tony G, Mike Matusow etc were playing the SE. They'd just laugh if they were told they couldn't say "the ace saved you".

Solksjaer

Is that Paul F with the glasses ...welcome to the battle of the boards....hopefully sorted out soon with subforums....

In my left corner are the wanna be pros clutching onto the aprons of the actual pros.. What y'a doing spike, what ya doooing... they will only talk HHS and theory. 3betting/4play is the same to them. They will try to make you feel guilty for not speaking in the common SLANGsky and use big words when a dimminuative one will suffice..(plag'd)

In my other left corner are the white noise brigade, they treat this forum as though it was a 'forum' of some kind, where likeminded people post threads on subjects that they have in common..(mostly poker,) One of them is particularly handsome...*ahem. these people never complain abut poker theory.


In my right corner are the sHi*e noise people, these guy just post to show off that they can use the internet and to abuse each other with transvestism taunts.


In my other right corner, (to your eh left) are the actual pros, when they post you READ and you LEARN. These guys have got egos though and sometimes turn into shi*e noise people. This can be fun.

Out there in the crowd are the lurkers!


Now which corner are you going into...!!!


Oh yeah....move up levels I believe.

Ste05

OK, welcome welcome, etc. noise, noise, etc. etc. now stay on topic from here on, in this thread, we don't need any more threads derailed. There's a discussion in the BB thread if there's things people want to say! Thank you.

Consider this a warning to everyone. I think we need an example to be made of someone if this keeps going on. And bans are just around the corner.

smurph

Ste05 wrote:

OK, welcome welcome, etc. noise, noise, etc. etc. now stay on topic from here on, in this thread, we don't need any more threads derailed. There's a discussion in the BB thread if there's things people want to say! Thank you.

Consider this a warning to everyone. I think we need an example to be made of someone if this keeps going on. And bans are just around the corner.

Welcome Cuban son (Paul) and I agree with your comments, and to Solksjear it appears that there will be alot of people in the sinbin and nobody in any corner.

Solksjaer

smurph wrote:

Welcome Cuban son (Paul) and I agree with your comments, and to Solksjear it appears that there will be alot of people in the sinbin and nobody in any corner.

Lock and load..click


Olli , terrbile thing to speechplay at that juncture, you handsome dog.

SE guys, seirously remove the headsup speachplay ban, it's not poker.

califano

I always got the feeling the SE's thinking on rules is 'all the better if our rule is different than the fitz rule in fact thats the idea'. I think they dislike to hear players saying "But in the fitz the rule is....". So to distinguish themselves in certain ways they like to have some variances in a rule like this and their rule where players are allowed to come in on the small blind etc. Nothing desperately wrong with either, i agree with their sb rule though.
I like a bit of speechplay but if there is one good thing from their no speechplay rule its that theres likely to be less bad feeling as a result of a goading/intimidating type speechplay that some might see as fine in their book as Cuban Son touched on earlier.

Ste05

Smurph and Solksjaer, consider this a formal warning, I don't make those posts for people to comment on them or to ignore them, they are directions that should be followed.

DO NOT REPLY HERE IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS OR YOU WILL BE BANNED, SEND ME A PM IF NEEDED. I CAN'T BE ANY FAIRER WITH WARNINGS.

Solksjaer

Ste05 wrote:

Smurph and Solksjaer, consider this a formal warning, I don't make those posts for people to comment on them or to ignore them, they are directions that should be followed.

DO NOT REPLY HERE IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS OR YOU WILL BE BANNED, SEND ME A PM IF NEEDED. I CAN'T BE ANY FAIRER WITH WARNINGS.

....you are having a LAF


My last post refered to the actual speachplay sooooo ban away me lad....I'm not too arsed tbh......:D

does this mean im out of the headsup also......

I love it when MODs turn hard.......


man this wine is good....:cool:

rgds
Willie

gl to all in the gjp, the bigslick and the macau....might not get a chance to say it..:)

Ste05

Solksjaer Banned for 3 days, you're fine to play in the Heads Up if you want, it's only 3 days, but I can't be any clearer in my warnings, I said to PM me if you had a problem. See you in 3.

Shortstack

Clubs are entitled to have whatever rules they like but they should stick to them. Personally I think heads up speech play is part of the game. Even the UK cardrooms relaxed their rules about it.

Show one show all is also a good rule, if you don't like it then just muck your other card.

Penalties for breaches of this type of rule are normally a warning followed by a time penalty for a repeat offence, followed by a longer time penalty for further offence and disqualification if they still don't learn!

tylerdurden94

I was sitting to your right olly for that game, was alot of banter at the table as you where saying. When that happened it got a bit frosty at the table for a few minutes.

I was tryin to figure out the hand as it was been played and i actually think that she would of called your bet. You know yourself that she definately had a piece of it and it would of been horrible if you had of got out drawn.

So definately a little word to find out where you stood was ok. And after the hand was over you did apologise more than once which was good.

Jools Poker

ollyk1 wrote:

Opinions please



Just after I uttered the words I remeber that this lady once asked for someones hand to be ruled dead after someone tried on some speech play in a hand (I read about it a year ago on boards).

Hey Ollie

how's it going? as I was reaing your post I realised that I'm pretty sure who were speaking about as I was at the table when the previous episode you mentioned with this person actually occurred ( if i remember rightly and have my boards names right you were actually playing in the same tourney but at a different table and then all three of us ended up at the same table and yes she did put me out (no it's not personal i swearlol) am i on the right track??) anyways that particular evening I have to say it was really quite a cringeworthy episode and imo the guy involved was badly done by...while she was pondering over her decision she actually asked him a question about the hand he was holding and he never actually said outright that he was holding a particular hand...but anyway after having initiated the speechplay with him she then began to make mumblings about speech play and tbh i don't think anyone including him thought she was seriously considering looking for a ruling...to everyone's amazement she did and the ruling was in her favour...to be fair to the guy involved he took it with amazing good grace (can't help thinking this was partly because she was a woman and pretty well liked and all the while she was complaining about him and imo effectively shafting the guy out of the pot she was smiling sweetly!)
however it left a bad taste...personally i don't think i would have invoked a ruling in that situation even it technically it was breaching house rules as I would have felt it not in the spirit of the game particularly when she had engaged him in the conversation and there wasn't any other player involved in the pot. I've no problem invoking a ruling in relation to the game itself but felt like this was more a case of hiding behind the rules when all else fails....
as regards your question i go for (c)
as regards the SE's rule on this i think it's always going ot creat issues particularly if a blind eye is turned if the chat is between regulars hu -leads to blurring of the lines and increasing the liklihood that someone will inadvertently break the rules and suffer a needless penalty....

but ollie you should know that sspeaking to us women at all is like navigating a minefield -so difficult to say the right thing -why should it be any different at the poker table???:D