ICF Building

JosephQ

I was at a building show at the weekend in Scotland and I saw this system called LogixI was wondering if anyone had heard of them and used them before. Also if you have planning permission for a block build house and would want to change it to this system as i have never heard of one ever being built in Donegal (that where i intend to build) is it difficult to change they also said thta you could build a celler for very little more and you would not need futher planning permision as the footing fo the building would not change !!!! . Any info would be gratefuly appreicated:)

Thier web page is www.logix.com there are vedeos of how to build this system on it

Thanks again

craggel

You seem to have the wrong link there JosephQ

JosephQ

Sorry about that the site is [url]www.logixicf.com:rolleyes:[/url]

muffler

JosephQ wrote:

they also said thta you could build a celler for very little more and you would not need futher planning permision as the footing fo the building would not change !!!!

I think Doctor Who would refer to that as being the TARDIS

Do-more

Here's another ICF company with a rep in Donegal, Polarwall

JosephQ

thanks Do-More had a look at the site it not quite like this Logix. I phoned then yesterday and they sent me a dvd on there system and also a web site of a build that was done by them. must admit it seems a very profesional setup and I am honestly thinking about going with it. I have also been asking around and most people I spoke to said that it is very big in canada and the usa also that it is better than just block or better than timber frame. asked them for aprice based on my plans that will the telling part if I go for it or not The address fot the photos is http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/annldjones@btinternet.com/my_photos and click on the picture of the garden.

Mellor

I don't see what make this different from other ICF systems?

sas

I think the main difference between polarwall and alot of the other ICF systems is that polarwalls seems a little adhoc. I've been on site with them and they appear to buy their blocks of polysytrene from 1 crowd, a railing system from somewhere else etc. I'm not condemning their system, but it did look like something anyone could buy the components for on the web. I could be very wrong here but that was the impression I got.

Other ICF companies like euromac, nudura (and logix based on the photos) are an actual dedicated ICF product with pre assembled blocks etc. It tends to give the impression of being a more designed\formal system if you like.

Polarwall is BRE approved, nudura and euromac are BBA. Are logix anything? Does it really matter to the OP!

JosephQ

I had another look at the stuff they sent me and they are BRE appoved as well. yes i agree with you SAS re Polarwall it does not give me ( the customer) confidence in there system. What i also like about this Logix is that they say they will not let you build with it unless you or yoour builder do their training package and any money paid for training is deducted from your order. So they seem to be approaching this in a profesional manner

Do-more

JosephQ wrote:

I had another look at the stuff they sent me and they are BRE appoved as well. yes i agree with you SAS re Polarwall it does not give me ( the customer) confidence in there system. What i also like about this Logix is that they say they will not let you build with it unless you or yoour builder do their training package and any money paid for training is deducted from your order. So they seem to be approaching this in a profesional manner

From the bit of research I have done on ICF's one of the the keys to sucess is having a very experianced guy to adjust the bracing during the pour. As the concrete is pumped in the weight of it tends to distort the wall so you need to adjust the braces accordingly otherwise your walls will be in and out all over the place.

A few more ICF companies in Ireland are Ecoform 061 393568 and www.integraspec.com in Cavan 049 4374000 integraspecirl@eircom.net

Villain

Looking at ICF myself Joesph who did you contact at Logix?

Do they anyone in Ireland signed up wiyh them?

ardara1

irish1 wrote:

Looking at ICF myself Joesph who did you contact at Logix?

Do they anyone in Ireland signed up wiyh them?

Simle question - why ICF - what are the advantages?

Do-more

Do-more wrote:

From the bit of research I have done on ICF's one of the the keys to sucess is having a very experianced guy to adjust the bracing during the pour. As the concrete is pumped in the weight of it tends to distort the wall so you need to adjust the braces accordingly otherwise your walls will be in and out all over the place.

It's more important that the bracing is correct BEFORE the pour as once several tonnes of wet concrete start sloshing about, you've lost it!!

I had a couple of small drifts during the pour (a couple of cms here & there), I put this down to poor bracing don't cut corners here...

ardara1

ardara1 wrote:

Simle question - why ICF - what are the advantages?

Here are a few features (can be considered advantages) I can think of off the top of my head.

1. speed of assembly using unskilled labour (or yourself).
2. airtight walls, no draughts through the walls as can sometimes be the case with blockwork.
3. no cold bridging.
4. concrete has thermal mass to help stabalise temperature flucturations.
5. complex curved walls can be easily formed
6. instant insulation!

I used Eurozone and am satisfied with the system.

Mellor

Deleted User wrote:

Here are a few features (can be considered advantages) I can think of off the top of my head.

1. speed of assembly using unskilled labour (or yourself).
2. airtight walls, no draughts through the walls as can sometimes be the case with blockwork.
3. no cold bridging.
4. concrete has thermal mass to help stabalise temperature flucturations.
5. complex curved walls can be easily formed
6. instant insulation!

I used Eurozone and am satisfied with the system.

No arguments with the rest of the list, not in this day and age there shouldn't be a draught through a block wall. Not in a new build.
and instant insulation is really irrelevant. As insulation isn't an a benefit until house is lived it.

JosephQ

Hi irish1 I saw them at a show in scotland told the i was building in Ireland they said that they can deliver here. info I have re contacting them is UK 0845 6076958 the sent a dvd with there tech info on it and videos of how to put it up they also have a website in the uk where you can get there full postal address from www.logix.uk.com hope this is of help

JosephQ

hi ardara1 as Dolanbaker said ease of build,heatloss etc. i like the simplicty of the system when i looked at dolanbakers site i started to look in to it and if they can put them up in the north of canada with very little heat loss surly here in ireland the benifts must be greater.

JosephQ

hi dolanbaker looked at you site a while ago tried to contact youe eurozone but they never got back to me. quick question I have planning permission for block build do you think council (Donegal)will object to using ICF instead and did you have any problems getting PP

ardara1

Deleted User wrote:

Here are a few features (can be considered advantages) I can think of off the top of my head.

1. speed of assembly using unskilled labour (or yourself).
   I see no benefit in using unskilled labour.
2. airtight walls, no draughts through the walls as can sometimes be the case with blockwork.
   Air tight walls are easily achieved in any construction - it's the junctions where air leakage becomes a problem
3. no cold bridging.
   See above - you've still to connect floor,roof and openings - there are details for achieving improved detailig in most constructions - they just have to be followed (by skilled labour)
   
4. concrete has thermal mass to help stabalise temperature flucturations.
   So does normal block build - can also be achieved in Timber frame with heavier linings/floor surfaces
   
5. complex curved walls can be easily formed
   Great
6. instant insulation!

I used Eurozone and am satisfied with the system.

Yep

JosephQ

ardara1 you sound like a brickie/block builder. any way as i have said I looked into it after seeing Dolanbaker site and cost are cheaper as blocklayers are charing the earth to lay a block and some are terrible but some are very good. I think this is they to go for the house building trade and I know that some people out ther are against change of any kind. still i might go for block build as I have to finish my research but on balance I am leaning to ICF

Mellor

Is there anywhere on the internet where I could get a list or sample of ICF domestic details?
I have concerns about certain areas.

ardara1

Mellor wrote:

Is there anywhere on the internet where I could get a list or sample of ICF domestic details?
I have concerns about certain areas.

Hi Mellor - you can get accredited details (That we're suppose to follow in Ireland as min standards under Part L) for mthe PLANNING PORTAL web site set up by the UK gov www.planningportal.gov.uk

Listed are Partial fill cavity/timber frame/steel frame/internal & external insulation systems - so I imagine that a combination of the last 2 might be useful.

If you don't use these details (Or the details in th eHomebond Right in site no28) - you're supposed to actually measure the effectiveness of the detail under the BRE paper IP1/06 - every thing can be measured.

craggel

Hi Joseph
I too am looking at ICF for an upcoming build I made contact with this crowd last week with view to using them. http://www.m2ireland.com/
They are IAB certified (details on their website). I am hoping to go down to their factory in Portarlington in the next week to see it all up close and personal. The owner is trying to set me up to visit a house that is 3/4 built at the moment by a structural engineer around Athy.
The system itself looks pretty good in theory and the walls are actually bullet proof as well which may be of benefit to some people depending on where they are living!!!
http://www.m2ireland.com/images/Emmedue%20Presentation%20revision%206.ppt

JosephQ

Hi Mellor

wondering about you concerns. Do you know something before I decide to go down this route looked at the Logix site and found this.

http://www.logixicf.com/client/LogixICF/LogixMain.nsf/webpages/technicallibrary.html

JosephQ

Hi mellor found this web site by Nottinghan University might be of use

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/sbe/creative_energy_homes

Mellor

I've had a look at the three sites above. I, still trawlling through the planningportal.
There is a certain situation that arises with this kind of construction at first floor level. I was pretty sure in my self of this, but I wanted to check with manufactuers details to be 100%.
The insulation is interupted at first floor level. And result is that the wall doesn't preform as well as calculations suggest. I am aware that there is still the outer panel of insulation, but this is often thinner than the first one. If a precast first floor is used. Heat will be inclined to travel through the slab into the core.
I was just wondering any manufacturer had resolved this.

Mellor

Mellor wrote:

I've had a look at the three sites above. I, still trawlling through the planningportal.
There is a certain situation that arises with this kind of construction at first floor level. I was pretty sure in my self of this, but I wanted to check with manufactuers details to be 100%.
The insulation is interupted at first floor level. And result is that the wall doesn't preform as well as calculations suggest. I am aware that there is still the outer panel of insulation, but this is often thinner than the first one. If a precast first floor is used. Heat will be inclined to travel through the slab into the core.
I was just wondering any manufacturer had resolved this.

In my build,(a bungalow) I used ICF for the rising walls as well as the main walls. This means that there is no bridging at the ground floor level.

Mellor, in general the outer layer is thicker (or has better thermal resistance) than the inner one, I have 150 in the outer layer & 50 in the inner layer, in a cast in situ first floor this would reduce the heat loss when compared to an ICF wall with equal panels. I'm not aware of any way to isolate the floors from the walls without losing structural strength , I'm sure it is possible but is it worth it!.

JosephQ

JosephQ wrote:

hi dolanbaker looked at you site a while ago tried to contact youe eurozone but they never got back to me. quick question I have planning permission for block build do you think council (Donegal)will object to using ICF instead and did you have any problems getting PP

Hi JosephQ, I had no issues with the council at all (Roscommon CC), they didn't appear to care what material I used as long as the house had a "traditional" look!

Mellor

Mellor wrote:

No arguments with the rest of the list, not in this day and age there shouldn't be a draught through a block wall. Not in a new build.
and instant insulation is really irrelevant. As insulation isn't an a benefit until house is lived it.

Hi Mellor,
I agree that a well built block wall should be draught proof, it's just that not all builders take enough care during the construction.
Instant insulation, I was referring to the fact that the insulation is part of the structure rather than added in to the wall during construction, you could also say the same about SIP's & some TF panels.

Mellor

Deleted User wrote:

In my build,(a bungalow) I used ICF for the rising walls as well as the main walls. This means that there is no bridging at the ground floor level.

Mellor, in general the outer layer is thicker (or has better thermal resistance) than the inner one, I have 150 in the outer layer & 50 in the inner layer, in a cast in situ first floor this would reduce the heat loss when compared to an ICF wall with equal panels. I'm not aware of any way to isolate the floors from the walls without losing structural strength , I'm sure it is possible but is it worth it!.

Well, thats good that you can get it both ways. I have only seen equal and thicker innerleaf. But I've only seen them the shows and such.

You dont need to isolate the floors. Just sort out the insulation. In cavity or external insulation this isn't an issue as the insulation is outside the structural wall. In internal insulation this is a problem.
But the way that you have done it with a larger outer leaf would be almost as good. And I believe the extra insulation makes up for and surpasses the problem.

What are the available thicknesses of the concrete core?

Mellor

Mellor wrote:

What are the available thicknesses of the concrete core?

It can be made in almost any thickness from 100mm to about 300mm (basements), depending on manufacturer. I used a 150mm core (standard thickness for single storey building).

Mellor

Deleted User wrote:

Hi Mellor,
I agree that a well built block wall should be draught proof, it's just that not all builders take enough care during the construction.
Instant insulation, I was referring to the fact that the insulation is part of the structure rather than added in to the wall during construction, you could also say the same about SIP's & some TF panels.

I know what you meant about insulation being part of the structure. I just don't see how its an advantage. As long as insitu insulation is installed correctly.

I think one of its advantages is the increased insulation:structure ratio, so the same size construction results in a better thermal proformance. But this is less of a benefit as the wall gets thicker.

Do you know what you would need to a 2 story.
Can 100 be used? 150?

Mellor

Mellor wrote:

Do you know what you would need to a 2 story.
Can 100 be used? 150?

150 appears to be the standard from other builds I have seen (100 with extra reinforcements should be OK) up to two storeys.

I was a three storey that had 200 on the ground floor then 150 for the upper floors.

kadman

This is the typical arrangement of the PDME 150 double panel system M2 panel


kadman

Mellor

Deleted User wrote:

150 appears to be the standard from other builds I have seen (100 with extra reinforcements should be OK) up to two storeys.

I was a three storey that had 200 on the ground floor then 150 for the upper floors.

thanks dolan baker

and kadman too, that detail explains it quite well. The insulated form for the floor appears to reduce the area of contact between core and floor

JosephQ

Got quotes back from two ICF companies Belco £11000.00 +vat @17.5% and also delivery. Logix £5435 inc Vat plus delivery £1200 +Vat. Working out prices now to see if cheaper than blocks if so next step planning dept at COCO.

Do-more

Hi Dolanbaker - Happened to drive past your house last week (recognised it from the photos in your blog!) looking good! Just wondering when you are going to complete the external finish? And with what? Are the ICF's UV stable? Are you not concerned with degradation of the external insulation due to weathering?

Villain

I'm submitting planning this week so hopefully I'll be looking at an ICF build in about 3 months, I was talking to plasterer during the week who has worked on ICF houses and I asked him about the external finish and said you have to use an acrylic Plaster, does anyone have information on cost and quality of acrylic plaster on an ICF block?

Hi Do-More,
Yes, the polystyrene does degrade a bit because of UV, but only the "skin" if you brush off the discolouration &degraded material (approx 0.5mm) its fine underneath. It discoloured within four months of erection.
The walls have been up for almost three years now, I don't expect the manufacturers of ICF intend the product to be exposed for that length of time.

I've avoided removing the degraded material because each brushing removes about 0.5mm of ICF.

I intend to plaster the external walls soon.

sas

irish1 wrote:

I'm submitting planning this week so hopefully I'll be looking at an ICF build in about 3 months, I was talking to plasterer during the week who has worked on ICF houses and I asked him about the external finish and said you have to use an acrylic Plaster, does anyone have information on cost and quality of acrylic plaster on an ICF block?

While looking into ICF myself I saw work done by this company http://www.powerplas.com. It was on a Nudura house.

It was acrylic render, finish was really very good. I think they charge in the region of 45 - 46 euro per sq metre (+ VAT).

The package includes them covering all your windows, doors etc. and removing the covering once the job is complete. They also lightly scour the surface to a remove the surface covering that has degraged as per DolanBakers post.

Do-more

irish1 wrote:

I'm submitting planning this week so hopefully I'll be looking at an ICF build in about 3 months

I was in a new ICF house last week, built by a commercial builder and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that they had no HRV and were ventilating by trickle vents in the windows!

If your going to go ICF, go to the trouble of ensuring it's fully airtight and install an active HRV system.;)

Slates

What is the stated life span of ICF ?

ircoha

Slates wrote: »

What is the stated life span of ICF ?

The issues that drive the answer to this have less to do with ICF and more to do with how the insulation is protected from the elements.

By ICF here I mean the following sandwich.

Insulation
Reinforced Concrete
Insulation

and not this

External Render
Insulation
Reinforced Concrete
Insulation
Internal Render.

Slates

ircoha wrote: »

The issues that drive the answer to this have less to do with ICF and more to do with how the insulation is protected from the elements.

By ICF here I mean the following sandwich.

Insulation
Reinforced Concrete
Insulation

and not this

External Render
Insulation
Reinforced Concrete
Insulation
Internal Render.

So what is the stated life span....................

On our build, it was just over three years form the first material arrving on site to finishing the external plaster.

During that time I estimate that at worst I lost 1mm of material on one wall (this wall was cleaned more than once). Ploystyrene is NOT UV stable and the surface will turn to dust, this dust then protects the remaining material. I guess that if I'd cleaned it every few weeks, I could have worn the entire wall away.

tipperary

Slates

I am planning to go with the Reward system which has a BBA certificate, with a stated lifespan of in excess of 60 years.

Builderfromhell

I designed a house for a guy who then used ICF system to build it. He's happy with the finished product but learnt the following;
- Blocks were stored in field and blew all over the field one night - many damaged and took ages to xcollect them all
- Cost of plastering system was high - figures I don't have
- Pump to pour concrete was very expensive and was idle on site most of the day waiting for concrete trucks to come.
- Concrete pour took two days due to late start - this not good for joint.
- walls buckled in places and concrete poured through gaps. This was minor but needed repair next day while concrete soft.

My own view is that Polystyrene loses insulating qualities over years and outgasses harmful gasses into house during it's lifetime. I may be wrong about these two points. I had been told this by an Architect who specialises in natural (healthy) houses.

s2_ireland

Hi Builderfromhell, usually with an ICF build there will be a HRV system. Installing an Indoor Air Quality sensor in the HRV equipment will aleviate any concerns about offgassing.

S

caps locked

What sort of money would a hrv system cost

Villain

Depends on size of house etc, I have quotes of €6k to €8k for a 2,500 Sq Ft house

ircoha

Builderfromhell wrote: »

My own view is that Polystyrene loses insulating qualities over years and outgasses harmful gasses into house during it's lifetime. I may be wrong about these two points. I had been told this by an Architect who specialises in natural (healthy) houses.

Are these your views or just unsubstantiated hearsay from an architect who may have a vested interest?

Are you familiar with current processes for dealing with 'off gassing' in ESP production?