Bertie Vs Enda

bget

The media seems to be pitting Bertie and Endas against oneanoter. What are peoples feelings on this issue.
I think Enda is preferable. Bertie despite his 'common man' front strikes me as very false and i do believe that at the back of it all he is a very sly and astute man. Some people are saying that Enda is not up to it but i think he should be given the benifit of the doubt and if he is he could end up suprising a lot of peope. Everyone takls about all the good bertie has done and how he should be brought back to finish the good work he has done in the health system. My opinion there is he has already had ten years to work on the health system and where has it got us.. to te point where nurses are so fed up with conditions that they are going on strike.. Not exactly a blazing success.. And hospital delays in a&e are getting worse and what does Bertie do?? closes or resuces servies in regional hospitals.. Am i the only one who fails to see the sense in that??
Really interested to see what people think....

Senator

My opinion for what it's worth is that today's speech by Bertie at Westminster only served to emphasise that BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

lunapark

you know, i think what everyone is forgetting, in fairness to FF, is that the last ten years have been a whirlwind of events, everything has happened so quickly, economy wise, jesus who would have thought that in ten years time there would have been more than .5 million immigrants in this country!!!!
SO sorry, but FF have'nt done too bad at all, considering the blast of events that have changed tha face of Ireland in the last two govt. terms...
and of course, easy for snivelly little Enda to take the throne and refine ten years of blood sweat and tears. I'm sorry he drives me mad- remember the amount of cheap shots he took at bertie AND his family( divorce etc.) regarding those 'payments' bertie received- what a great guy to lead an inspirational country on many grounds (esp. economy ) like Ireland.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

Saruman

Bertie gets my vote, better the Devil you know!
Enda is a muppet.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

Aesop

In any election the leader of FF and FG are pitted against one another. These direct comparisons however are usually down to personality contests. You don't become leader unless you are sly and astute so it is all about public perception. Ahern in the past has been bulletproof and to a large extent still is. I think the decline of FF in the polls is less to do with Ahern and more to do with the real issues economy, health, crime, education.

For this reason I think FG are staying away from a direct competition between the two for as long as possible. Ahern will win any one to one comparison with Enda, only question is can FF sink far enough in the polls that it won't matter.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

Money Shot

Senator wrote:

BOTH he and Blair have had their 10 years in office and it's time to move aside and make way for someone new on both sides of the Irish Sea.

We really do need a change at this stage. Fresh faces, fresh ideas - a new way of doing things. We need politicians that care in power. In my opinion Bertie doesn't care. He is primarily concerned with his Northern Ireland legacy in a historical context. I think most FF TD's have become used to their jobs and don't try as much as they should. They are in the comfort zone. It happens to everyone who stays in a job too long - you become stale.

smemon

sinn féin all the way, that would freshen things up a bit

Senator

Hello again, campers. We're back on air after that wee blip (above).

Looking ahead and taking into account all the changes over the past decade and those we might expect to come in the next decade or so, I'd say that in the medium future we'll do away with Fianna Fail and Fine Gael and they will re-align themselves into one party. There's little enough between them now anyway. The immigrants and other developments will help proper Left-Right politics emerge instead of the sham Civil War pantomime we have at present.

Sleepy

I don't get why people are so anti-Kenny and for the life of me I don't understand the liking for Ahern (besides the fact he's made great fodder for Today FM's Gift Grub).

The man has led the country for 10 years yet the only political belief I can ever remember him expressing was his rather ludicrous claim to be a socialist :rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Sleepy wrote:

I don't get why people are so anti-Kenny and for the life of me I don't understand the liking for Ahern (besides the fact he's made great fodder for Today FM's Gift Grub).

He sounds bitter & moany. This may be warranted but there's a reason car salesmen are always smiling.

DeepBlue

Saruman wrote:

Bertie gets my vote, better the Devil you know!
Enda is a muppet.

I wasn't aware Bertie and Enda were running in the same constituency .

bemmet

Think it was well summed up on questions and answers last night
"if Bertie and Enda were going for a job as CEO of a listed irish company ,Enda would not even get called for the interview" .

It is a sensible question you ask as i wonder about all this "its time for a change" drivel. Its pure nonsense, if its policy you dont like fine .But change for changes sake, makes me worry when we are dealing with running a nation .

Avns1s

bemmet wrote:

Think it was well summed up on questions and answers last night
"if Bertie and Enda were going for a job as CEO of a listed irish company ,Enda would not even get called for the interview" .

.

Neither would Bertie and if he was they'd likely be wondering if he was on a backhander from the suppliers!

Jonny Arson

I still am astonished people fall for this fake ''Bertie''TM image spun up by the FF marketing department. The Bertie that is seen on stage reading a script for a speech is a very different Bertie from the clueless moron spouting crap in an interview or making baseless arrogant attacks on everyone in the Dáil. Enda may never become a stand up comedian but at least the man comes across as sincere and genuine on all occasions and a man with standards and unlike Comrade Ahern, has some idea of what he is talking about. Neither of them are my ideal individual for Taoiseach but Give me Kenny over Ahern anyday.

lunapark wrote:

you know, i think what everyone is forgetting, in fairness to FF, is that the last ten years have been a whirlwind of events, everything has happened so quickly, economy wise, jesus who would have thought that in ten years time there would have been more than .5 million immigrants in this country!!!!
SO sorry, but FF have'nt done too bad at all, considering the blast of events that have changed tha face of Ireland in the last two govt. terms...
and of course, easy for snivelly little Enda to take the throne and refine ten years of blood sweat and tears. I'm sorry he drives me mad- remember the amount of cheap shots he took at bertie AND his family( divorce etc.) regarding those 'payments' bertie received- what a great guy to lead an inspirational country on many grounds (esp. economy ) like Ireland.

Don't tell me things are that slow in FF HQ Bertie!

funktastic

Change is always good. This is not the case when the alternative is so poor and lacking in experience/policies.

Jonny Arson

funktastic wrote:

Change is always good. This is not the case when the alternative is so poor and lacking in experience/policies.

I don't get the ''no experience/policies'' argument. I dunno if you mean you don't agree with thier policies or you're trying to say that have no policies and if it is that latter then that is just ignorant.

Regards experience, FG and Labour were part of a very successful rainbow coalition from 1994-1997 and Enda Kenny was a Minister so the whole ''experience'' argument doesn't hold much weight

funktastic

Yeah, minister for tourism and Trade. Great experience. Rabbitte would be a much better Taoiseach. He is able to talk on issues off hand. Kenny just keeps reverting back to his 'contract' that he has signed for a better Ireland.

Jonny Arson

funktastic wrote:

Yeah, minister for tourism and Trade. Great experience.

The man has played a major part in taking FG from the dark days of 2002 to having one step as the next government. You can't dispute the man is doing something right and has good abilities needed to be leader of this country.

If Ahern can supposedly do it I bloody can!

funktastic

Yeah, well he's got a struggling outfit back into shape a bit. Fair play to him, but the job is a bit bigger than that. It's like promoting someone who's only experience is managing Walsall to be manager of the Irish team. Oh wait...

brianthebard

funktastic wrote:

Yeah, minister for tourism and Trade. Great experience. Rabbitte would be a much better Taoiseach. He is able to talk on issues off hand. Kenny just keeps reverting back to his 'contract' that he has signed for a better Ireland.

Well considering how important tourism and trade is to our economy, especially at the time when Kenny was minister, I think it was good experience. As for Rabbitte being taoiseach, well yeah I'd like that myself but even in the tanaiste position he'll be able to make his voice heard. The whole point of government is that its not dependant on one person, hence the arguments about Kenny are fairly void once he has party support and gets the votes required at the polls.

funktastic

Ahern has plenty of experience, Cowen has way more valuable experience than anyone on the FG/Labour side as Minister for finance, previous health minister and Transport and I feel he would be a much better Taoiseach than Ahern.

Being a minister for tourism and Trade doesn't really equip you to deal with other world leaders/managing the business of a country.

Brendan Howlin, Ruairi Quinn from Labour and Richard Bruton, Enda Kenny and Sean Barrett from FG are the only people with ministerial experience.

Yes the government isn't about one person, but i think some sort of experience will be necessary. If FG/Lab/whoever get in, it more-than-likely won't be with a strong enough majority, and without strong leadership and pressure from Rabbitte etc there will be another general election in 18 months.

Sleepy

I have to say, I think you FF supporters are woefully underestimating Kenny.

Personally I'd love to see Quinn take back his Finance Ministry, the man didn't put a foot wrong back in the days when managing the budget wasn't simply a matter of how best to prop up the property bubble.

I'd agree with funktastic that Cowen would be a far better Taoiseach than Ahern, although I don't think he'd be able to control the bag of cats that is FF nearly as well as the 'great compromiser' (easy to compromise when you've no beliefs of your own). Cowen would be one of the few FF politicians I could describe as capable but unfortunately it seems you need more spin skills than economic ones to run this country (just ask Fitzgerald).

bget

Jonny Arson wrote:

I still am astonished people fall for this fake ''Bertie''TM image spun up by the FF marketing department...... Enda may never become a stand up comedian but at least the man comes across as sincere and genuine on all occasions and a man with standards and unlike Comrade Ahern, has some idea of what he is talking about....

Dead on I totally agree with you... Bertie has speech writers galour for public events(and yat still occasionally manages to **** up) but when he has to talk off his out bat he's a dodering fool. While Enda may not have the charm or the big 'car sales man smile' he's consistant.. That's what this country needs. Some one who knows what he's talking about...

bget

oops apologies about the *'s.. Got a bit carried away

JerkyBoy

I see two people.

1) A man of questionably trustworthiness, with very poor communication skills, and a record of not delivering on his promises, and no record of accountability (nor is he offering any).


2) A man with no suspicious baggage attached to him, with excellent communication skills, and what appears to be a genuine eagerness to deliver on his promises, with a promise to hold himself and others accountable.

It's an easy choice for me. Enda Kenny.
I never had much interest in the guy in the last few years but recently I've found him quite impressive.

But if Enda becomes Taoiseach and then doesn't deliver, while having the means to...I will be as critical of him as I am of Bertie right now.

Bertie could not deliver on his promises when the country had unlimited resources...I have no faith that he will deliver on them if the economy slows down.

Enda is unproven...but being unproven is more appealing to me than being proven bad, which Bertie has been.

Mitzy

Enda has the charisma of a staple - if I have to look at him for the next 5 years..........................

redspider

Bertie at times comes across as a nort side car sales man, and a wheeler dealer accountant who would "see you right" and et you out of a scrape.

Kenny does have a certain chutzpah (something) missing which many of us cant quite put the finger on. He seems similar in a way to John Bruton and we can envisage him being somehow a 'weakish' Taoiseach.

Having said all that, 10 years of one Taoiseach sort of puts that stamp in everyones minhd as the standard bearer. We as a population get used to Bertie as being what a Taoiseach should be. But that shouldnt be the case. We would be lazy to take that approach.

As for experience, we should instead look at capability. Was Bertie a wise choice as Minister for Finance, the anorak man under CJH? And the revealations of Bertiegate-1 and Bertiegate-2 havent exactly shown him to have a squeaky clean track record.

I would expect Kenny to do just as good/bad a job as Taoiseach as Ahern.

As for the debate, no doubt both will be claiming victory and it is likely to be a draw as the trade points across the floor which dont match and talk around each other.


A new point. By the way, does anyone think that our current system is flawed whereby the Taoiseach remains in office yet performs functions such as speaking to the UK's houses when it is officially election mode and the Dail has been dissolved? Another example, Ministers announcing financial packages, etc. Surely, the President can represent the state when the country is in election mode and prevent the Taoiseach from (ab)using his positon as an electioneering platform.

thoughts ???? (or yet another thread topic?)

Redspider

Rock Climber

One of Enda's great traits is that he's a real "peoples man",an ordinary man.
He has time for you,theres no whats in it for me when he talks to you (except maybe looking for a vote).
He really does need some presentation coaching though because on TV, he has this smarmy looking smirk that he puts on at the end of what he says which isn't a plus,he should lose that.
He also looked very "awed" or nervous or something when the camera trained on him in the guest seating at the front over in westminister which I suppose is understandable.He wouldnt have much experience of the big occasions (yet).

fobster

bget wrote:

The media seems to be pitting Bertie and Endas against oneanoter. What are peoples feelings on this issue.

Well there is an election coming up so the media will obviously be pitting the two leaders of the two main parties against each other

I think Enda is preferable. Bertie despite his 'common man' front strikes me as very false and i do believe that at the back of it all he is a very sly and astute man. Some people are saying that Enda is not up to it but i think he should be given the benifit of the doubt and if he is he could end up suprising a lot of peope.

Enda certainly comes across as a very determined individual at turning his party's fortunes around, but we'll only know if it's a real success after the election. On the other hand Bertie's ability to come across as "one of the people" appeals to the average Joe on the street who wants a taoiseach they could have a pint with and talk about Dublin in the GAA etc. Enda has the ability and the determination, Bertie has the charisma and appeal.

My opinion is he has already had ten years to work on the health system and where has it got us.. to te point where nurses are so fed up with conditions that they are going on strike.. Not exactly a blazing success..

Ah the nurses union, is the fact that there's an election coming up just a mere coincidence? Ask Liam Doran before he runs to the nearest microphone. Interesting that the opposition parties are keeping fairly stum on the issue. Don't want to be seen to be pandering to the nurses requests now would they, otherwise everybody will want a pay rise...

elurhs

There's a major flaw in all this "no experience" talk regarding Enda - the only way to get experience as Taoiseach/Minister is for your party to be in power. If your party has been in opposition for 10 years, the number of people with such experience will be reduced. If this argument was logical, we would never elect the Opposition because they have no experience in power!

Avns1s

elurhs wrote:

There's a major flaw in all this "no experience" talk regarding Enda - the only way to get experience as Taoiseach/Minister is for your party to be in power. If your party has been in opposition for 10 years, the number of people with such experience will be reduced. If this argument was logical, we would never elect the Opposition because they have no experience in power!

Completely agree. What he should have is fresh thinking, a new way of doing things all positives when you're filling any position.

Also Enda Kenny is a listener. He very much likes to take people opinions on board. Believe me, I expect he'll get plenty of advice and direction from the "permanent Government". I just hope he's strong enough to face them down and push his own agenda and decisions.

Also anyone who has ever met Enda Kenny couldn't help but like him. If that isn't charisma I don't know what is.

Finally, the gresatest thing Enda Kenny has on his CV is what he has done for the FG party. When he took over, the party was at its lowest ebb, On the way out many would say. Since then they had the success of the local and european elections, unprecedented for FG and now the party is at its highest level in the polls for many years. The real poll on the 24th will of course, be the ultimate test. He promised to "Electrify" the party. He has done this without doubt. The party is united behind him and on the verge of government. To my mind and to borrow McDowells phrase (even though I hate it) he's a "ronseal" politician. You get what you see.

He has delivered within FG and I suspect he'll do whatever he has promised in government if he become Taoiseach.

Bottle_of_Smoke

JerkyBoy wrote:

I see two people.

1) A man of questionably trustworthiness, with very poor communication skills, and a record of not delivering on his promises, and no record of accountability (nor is he offering any).

Agreed.

2) A man with no suspicious baggage attached to him, with excellent communication skills, and what appears to be a genuine eagerness to deliver on his promises, with a promise to hold himself and others accountable.

No suspicious baggage - Well we don't really know much about him. Excellent communication skills? No I just don't know what you mean, would agree if you said Richard Bruton but Enda Kenny comes across as the type of guy who'd cane a kid for claiming he was being bullied. That embittered smirk he can't complete a sentence without is just not an example of excellent communication skills.

Looking like your eager to deliver is easy to do with the current government tbh.

Valmont

goodness gracious me I can't make my mind up and the fence is starting to hurt my arse

bget

I was very impressed by enda preformance in the debate last night. I am even more sure now that his contract is not just pie-in-the-sky, telling people what they want to hear. I am not sure that he knows what needs to be done if he is to provide on his promises and i belief he has what it takes to do what needs to be done and make changes.

Lennoxschips

I thought Enda missed a trick when Bertie was going on about how colocation was the quickest why to get more beds. The point should have been raised as to why we've gotten ourselves into a situation where we are looking for a quick fix. Kenny did call it an "admission of failure" but he could have expanded on it a bit.

panda100

Sleepy wrote:

I don't get why people are so anti-Kenny

He comes across as very boring with no personality and a bit of personality is important in a leader.
I would actually vote fine gael but Kenny really turns me off them. I met him three times. The first two times he spoke for me for a minute thinking I was English as I have an Engllish accent.Yet he spoke at length to all my Irish friends.The third time I met him and told him I was from west Limerick he suddenly became very interested in me and spoke to me for 20 minutes. I just get this creepy feeling of him that he just wants votes and thats all he cares about.

The Rooster

panda100 wrote:

he just wants votes and thats all he cares about.

Thems are the ones that tend to get elected!

Raiser

Sleepy wrote:

I don't get why people are so anti-Kenny and for the life of me I don't understand the liking for Ahern (besides the fact he's made great fodder for Today FM's Gift Grub).

The man has led the country for 10 years yet the only political belief I can ever remember him expressing was his rather ludicrous claim to be a socialist :rolleyes:

I can really understand why people think that Kenny personifies Hopkins choice come May 24th.

No matter how crooked people perceive Bertie to be - I would be nervous of leaving Inda [the champion of "joynd-up thinkin'"] in charge of my post office savings book - not to mention at the helm of the Country.

The man has a small-time air about him, to watch and listen last night [as Miriam failed miserably at anything other than showcasing every Max Factor product all at once] he seemed like a man who would struggle at GAA fundraising level not to mind being our next Taoiseach.

His Political foe has been limping around for weeks now with a massive [self-inflicted] target tatooed across his chest - our Nurses are on the streets on strike, while our patients are on the streets on trolleys - Kenny in the meantime has been in the Political ring trading punches like a myopic, dizzy, paraplegic, one legged Hamster with vertigo.

He'll probably get in - but he will get in by default & he is not up to scratch, not by any stretch of the imagination.

golden

Did anyone notice Bertie at times could not look at Enda in the eye when he was talking?

scojones

That's the usual Bertie tbh, golden. I loved how Enda was more or less laughing every time Bertie was saying something. I thought Enda performed brilliantly, but he could have expanded on a few things. All in all a good show, and I'm more confident in Enda's abilities now.

ninty9er

bget wrote:

I was very impressed by enda preformance in the debate last night. I am even more sure now that his contract is not just pie-in-the-sky, telling people what they want to hear. I am not sure that he knows what needs to be done if he is to provide on his promises and i belief he has what it takes to do what needs to be done and make changes.

Here's my 2cents of bias:

FF backroom and grassroots are extremely happy with the debate as it gave the boost to morale that was needed for the final push.

All we learned about Kenny's contract is that his 2000 extra Gardaí is 700 short of Fianna Fáil's 2000 Gardaí promise, that his 2300 beds are really 1700 and that they are at the cost of critical cancer care services. Now anyone who knows someone who has died of cancer would rather they had local cancer treatment which would free up beds as overnights wouldn't be necessary in all cases and that the treatment be top class.

He pulled Bertie up on 300 soldiers at a cost of around €45million while having no qualms about leaving the cost of the Labour pledges out of his manifesto.(€2.3 BILLION)
Now there's "joyned yup twinkin" for ya

What I want to know is WHERE IS THIS JOINT MANIFESTO WE WERE PROMISED 2 years ago in Mullingar. Empty promises from an empty politician.

Roanmore

Everybody keeps talking about previous experience and lack of experience. Just remember that the civil servants that are running the depts will be there after the election as well. hey are the real people who run the country.

Marcus.Aurelius

Roanmore wrote:

Everybody keeps talking about previous experience and lack of experience. Just remember that the civil servants that are running the depts will be there after the election as well. hey are the real people who run the country.

Civil service are the permanent government. But Bertie's had 10 years to spend billions that no govt had before him on infrastructure. And just look at it, billions gone into backhanders and overtime projects, with a few euros into Bertie's arse pocket to boot.

I think Bertie is very capable, very good if he wanted to be, but he's so corrupt now, he probably couldn't do anything decent if he tried, his hands are tied by his business masters.

Enda is not as good a politician as Bertie, no doubt there, but Enda was honest in Thurs night's debate, he held his gaze and spoke clearly. Bertie's eyes darted everywhere, a sure sign of lying and he interrupted and ignored Enda and shouted over him like a schoolyard bully. Cornered, Bertie shows himself up as the lying weasel he is.

Villain

Well I met Bertie Ahern in person this morning in Carlow, he was in the Fairgreen shopping center going around shaking hands with people that MJ Nolan and other FF councillors were introducing him to.

I met him at the exit and door and shook his hand, I then said I hoped he was going to tackle MRSA if he got elected as it has got a lot worse in the last 10 years. I have to say I was very surprised that instead of just saying yes and walking off he actually engaged in conversation with me although thats where my good impression of him ended, he start saying that Hospital Hygiene was only a smart part of the problem and that the over use of antibiotics was the real issue, while this may in theory be true there is not much he can do about that, whats needs to done is to prevent the spread of the infection in our hospitals something the Government can tackle

So the conversation ended after I told him I would have voted for MJ if he had tackled the issue over the last 10 years at that point he said "Good Man" tapped me on the shoulder and walked off, well I suppose he couldn't really argue that they had tackled the issue.

Has anyone else met Bertie or Enda in the last 2 weeks?

burnedfaceman

i met enda getting off the train in dublin about a fortnight ago, he was shaking hands and place was very busy but he still took time to ask to vote for local candidate which i had already decided to do anyway. i found him polite and witty as he was quick with the tongue to crack a joke and having previously seen him speak at close quaters in a debate when i was in school i found him very honest and was very impressed with the manner in which he can conduct himself while public speaking, a far cry from de de de bertie

bget

i have never personally met either. Having said this my housemate and close friend has. Around two years ago she met enda kenny and there was no election coming up but he still stopped and took the time to chat to her. they chatted for around 20 mins and she found him to be very friendly and genuine. on the other hand she worked for a full 18months in berties local serving him regularly and he barely took the time to look at her, but after the election was announced the first time he saw her ha was all set to get into a conversation with her but she was having none of it.. That for me sums up the differnce between the two men; enda is a genuinely decent guy and bertie is jus out for what he can get!!!