opinions on worst arts and why.

cowzerp

I was just thinking about what arts annoy you and why they may do so, this is just opinions and nothing too serious-just another way of learning about other arts, kung fu type arts are the 1's that bother me most, the reason being, most are rip off merchants that grade people based on large payments-the excuse for this is that you cant learn special secret moves till you have whatever belt! the secret moves thing is the worst thing about these arts, any art thats not willing to adapt due to stubborness annoy me also-try keep opinions honest and inoffensive if possible..also defending your art is also welcome once it is honest and makes sense!

ninjaburr

I think maybe finger painting is the worst.Allthough that british dude that puts half of a cow into a glass box is on my list too.

Baggio...

Hey mate,

I know what you're saying. It's not so much the styles that annoy me per se. It's some of the OTT claims that certain schools promote as viable self-defense. I often wonder what are they basing their facts on, and how do they know it will work in a real situation (god forbid)?

For example, I remember one school I trained with many yeas ago (some form of Kung fu - can't remember now). They showed some highly dubious and unrealistic ways of dealing with a knife threat, and it was taught as the gospel truth. At the time I was quite young and suitably impressed. But knowing what I know now; these techs would be more likely to get someone seriously injured. So I wondered in my later years, did these guys ever face a live knife situation? and it was obvious that they never had. In fact, I'd make an educated guess that these guys were never in a violent situation beyond school. Otherwise they would not be so blasé about the subjects taught.

So it's certain concepts that really get under my skin especially material that has never been put under realistic "dynamics and pressure testing".

I understand that not everyone has been in a real knife situation (including myself), but if people are going to teach something without experience at least make the training as realistic as possible - by understanding how modern criminals operate, and how these attacks take place, etc. And not forgetting to simulate it under realistic pressure.

Just my two cents...

B.

SorGan

Baggio... wrote:

Hey mate,

I know what you're saying. It's not so much the styles that annoy me per se. It's some of the OTT claims that certain schools promote as viable self-defense. I often wonder what are they basing their facts on, and how do they know it will work in a real situation (god forbid)?

For example, I remember one school I trained with many yeas ago (some form of Kung fu - can't remember now). They showed some highly dubious and unrealistic ways of dealing with a knife threat, and it was taught as the gospel truth. At the time I was quite young and suitably impressed. But knowing what I know now; these techs would be more likely to get someone seriously injured. So I wondered in my later years, did these guys ever face a live knife situation? and it was obvious that they never had. In fact, I'd make an educated guess that these guys were never in a violent situation beyond school. Otherwise they would not be so blasé about the subjects taught.

So it's certain concepts that really get under my skin especially material that has never been put under realistic "dynamics and pressure testing".

I understand that not everyone has been in a real knife situation (including myself), but if people are going to teach something without experience at least make the training as realistic as possible - by understanding how modern criminals operate, and how these attacks take place, etc. And not forgetting to simulate it under realistic pressure.

Just my two cents...

B.

the only mas ive seen that have a degree of understanding when it comes to edged weapons attacks, are fmas,silat...cant speak for combatives, i havnt seen much of it.

SorGan

cowzerp wrote:

I was just thinking about what arts annoy you and why they may do so, this is just opinions and nothing too serious-just another way of learning about other arts, kung fu type arts are the 1's that bother me most, the reason being, most are rip off merchants that grade people based on large payments-the excuse for this is that you cant learn special secret moves till you have whatever belt! the secret moves thing is the worst thing about these arts, any art thats not willing to adapt due to stubborness annoy me also-try keep opinions honest and inoffensive if possible..also defending your art is also welcome once it is honest and makes sense!

kung fu "types":)
well that could be anything, in my exp. kung fu aint like that, it comes down to people running macdojos, and in ANY m.a.

Nothingcompares

I think the problem with this thread that it will be based on stereotypes. Cowzerp - are you sure you're thinking of a specific school or martial art when make that criticism? Have you seen advertising for a club that says these kind of things.


If you're going to come out and give out about a particular martial art at least have some kind of evidence to support it. What's stopping me from saying I really dislike BJJ because all the guys that do it think it' the best form of self-defense in the world and is fool-proof in a fight on the street. Nobody actually says this but it's easy for me to make this claim because I may feel it's a true based on casual conversations.

dlofnep

Here we go again..

paul moran

For example, I remember one school I trained with many yeas ago (some form of Kung fu - can't remember now).

Baggio
You can't have done too much training with them to have any idea of their concepts or of the school, if you can't remember much about them!

I find that people who have gained an impression of Martial arts schools when they were young and impressionable (as you said you were) really haven't much knowledge of the system or school to have a justifiable opinion.

Cozerp

kung fu type arts are the 1's that bother me most

You could be talking about any style here. Any school who claims to hold back secrets are simply selling the supposed mystical side of the arts the same way as the Reality based self defense systems prey on the vulnerable and paranoid in society.
It really shouldn't detract from their ability to teach effective martial arts although I would question their motives in marketing themselves in this way.

The only arts that annoy me are the ones that claim to be better than other arts without truly knowing the merits and goals of all the other styles out there.

Baggio...

paul moran wrote:

Baggio
You can't have done too much training with them to have any idea of their concepts or of the school, if you can't remember much about them!

Paul,

Can't remember that much as it was about 15 years or so ago.
I trained with them for a year, and left pretty pronto after that. I'm not having a go at Kung Fu per se, I'm just saying; that particular school did not have a very realistic approach imo.

SorGan

paul moran wrote:

Baggio
You can't have done too much training with them to have any idea of their concepts or of the school, if you can't remember much about them!

I find that people who have gained an impression of Martial arts schools when they were young and impressionable (as you said you were) really haven't much knowledge of the system or school to have a justifiable opinion.

Cozerp


You could be talking about any style here. Any school who claims to hold back secrets are simply selling the supposed mystical side of the arts the same way as the Reality based self defense systems prey on the vulnerable and paranoid in society.
It really shouldn't detract from their ability to teach effective martial arts although I would question their motives in marketing themselves in this way.

The only arts that annoy me are the ones that claim to be better than other arts without truly knowing the merits and goals of all the other styles out there.

some of them do..i contacted a certain dublin rbsd school for info on some training last week, and got the longest "big sell" reply ever.
talk about preying on the weak and vulnerable, it disgusted me.
we all know who this is so i wont go back into it.

cowzerp

A friend of mine does ming chuan i think it is, they believe there trainer can do hadukens and stuff like that-this is laughable, if he could he would be world famous-they pay serious money a year for training-i mean serious money.. then gradings is more big money aswell-this is a joke-im not knocking all kung fu, im just using this as my example, there is also a kickboxing club in town that get you up to black belt in 1 year charging lots of money for each grading, i know a person who graded there black belt but has not recieved it till thay pay 300 quid, and was also told they cant learn any new stuff till they have the belt-they pay 35 euro for a session and its not even 1 on 1-:eek:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Worse = Silat Bang

(Sorry Liam)

Cake Fiend

Every single martial art, style within that art, organization within that style, and club within that organization has its dickheads. Tarring every style, org, club, instructor and practitioner with one brush is lazy and ignorant.

Baggio...

cowzerp wrote:

i know a person who graded there black belt but has not recieved it till thay pay 300 quid, and was also told they cant learn any new stuff till they have the belt-they pay 35 euro for a session and its not even 1 on 1-:eek:

I think I know the club youre talking about...

bigwoodenspoon

"I was just thinking about what arts annoy you and why they may do so, this is just opinions and nothing too serious-just another way of learning about other arts, kung fu type arts are the 1's that bother me most, the reason being, most are rip off merchants that grade people based on large payments-the excuse for this is that you cant learn special secret moves till you have whatever belt! the secret moves thing is the worst thing about these arts, any art thats not willing to adapt due to stubborness annoy me also-try keep opinions honest and inoffensive if possible..also defending your art is also welcome once it is honest and makes sense!"

hey im new to hear been a boxer most of my life and have been doing Thai Boxing past two tears...i think apart from havin a gun in ur hand best martial arts are boxin or thai without a doubt...everything thing else just wont work (in my opinion)
as for arts that annoy me...

1) MMA apart from the very best guys like Couture etc it all just look like two guys outside a bar brawling, terrible to watch n just not my bag baby!

2) Silat...seriously WTF??? www.cimande.com / www.silat.com / www.silateurope.com GET YER GLOW STICKS haha !!!

3) S.T.A.B. im not a knife guy or a weapon guy but this would NEVER work, while hes tryin to hold my arm im just gonna punch the head off him with my other arm! For a guy who comes from an "alive" training background this is dead training if iv ever seen it...and yes iv seen Carls clips online!

4) Traditional martial arts (like cowzerp said) wher uv big fat over the hill guys tellin u they can blow fire out their ass n drop u with a jedi mind trick, when their just hidin behind their bellys and their black belts...i know 15yr old young lads that would hand them their lazy ass on a plate!

anyway thats just my two cents...like i said im a striker at heart n boxin has been around the longest and aint goin nowhere!

Jimkel

Cake Fiend wrote:

Every single martial art, style within that art, organization within that style, and club within that organization has its dickheads. Tarring every style, org, club, instructor and practitioner with one brush is lazy and ignorant.

Word!!

Therefore I will not say anything bad about a style rather some practitioners of a style who are friends of mine.

They Study TKD, and they wear armour and pads when they spar, even in tournement. WHAT is the point of that?? there is a TKD club on after my Karate class on wednesdays, we are fighting with no armour on a hard cold floor in our bare feet, head shots allowed. Then these guys come in with their mats, armour and do drills and then have the audacity to claim there club is tougher>>>>>Loose the armour and I'll consider that claim. How can you learn to fight if you've never had a good kick in the head, or punch in the nose etc.

I was outside a chipper one time with my sensie's and a friend of theres, A TKD 5th dan, He was being slagged by some scangers about his long hair, then one of them started pushing him and threw a punch. well The TKD dude Kicked the scanger in the face and....Nothing, he was so used to pulling his kicks he actually pulled his kick in a real life situation!!!! we then proceded to stop this TKD guy from getting battered by getting him the hell out of there.

So no insult to TKD because I've seen some really good TKD fighters , but these guys, their being ripped off for a class in which they learn how to make a fool out of them selves in a self defence situation. At least their expensive gi's look cool :rolleyes:

TKD SC

Jimkel wrote:

Word!!

Therefore I will not say anything bad about a style rather some practitioners of a style who are friends of mine.

They Study TKD, and they wear armour and pads when they spar, even in tournement. WHAT is the point of that?? there is a TKD club on after my Karate class on wednesdays, we are fighting with no armour on a hard cold floor in our bare feet, head shots allowed. Then these guys come in with their mats, armour and do drills and then have the audacity to claim there club is tougher>>>>>Loose the armour and I'll consider that claim. How can you learn to fight if you've never had a good kick in the head, or punch in the nose etc.

I was outside a chipper one time with my sensie's and a friend of theres, A TKD 5th dan, He was being slagged by some scangers about his long hair, then one of them started pushing him and threw a punch. well The TKD dude Kicked the scanger in the face and....Nothing, he was so used to pulling his kicks he actually pulled his kick in a real life situation!!!! we then proceded to stop this TKD guy from getting battered by getting him the hell out of there.

So no insult to TKD because I've seen some really good TKD fighters , but these guys, their being ripped off for a class in which they learn how to make a fool out of them selves in a self defence situation. At least their expensive gi's look cool :rolleyes:

Hey Jim,

I don't want to pass comment on other MA's, but the above sounds like WTF / olympic TKD you're describing, which is hugely different imo from ITF TKD. In ITF there's no body armour and we wear hand & foot pads when sparring. The sparring ranges from light to full contact depending on the club & grade etc.

Just wanted to clear it up, as imo olympic tkd is hugely different from ITF TKD (which is more similar to kickboxing on the sparring side).

Having said that about olympic / wtf, there's a guy I used to know through work who does wtf and said they went all out hitting eachother. Don't know where he did it, think in clonsilla. So maybe there's a difference between WTF & Olympic TKD, I actually don't really know...

thanks

Tim_Murphy

The sparring ranges from light to full contact depending on the club & grade etc.

What ITF club do you know of does Full contact sparring/competition? I've never heard of any in Ireland doing so.

Also it's worth remembering that WTF sparring is full contact, ITFers are easily as likely, if not more likely to pull their kicks as per example above.

Jimkel

TKD SC wrote:

Hey Jim,

I don't want to pass comment on other MA's, but the above sounds like WTF / olympic TKD you're describing, which is hugely different imo from ITF TKD. In ITF there's no body armour and we wear hand & foot pads when sparring. The sparring ranges from light to full contact depending on the club & grade etc.

Just wanted to clear it up, as imo olympic tkd is hugely different from ITF TKD (which is more similar to kickboxing on the sparring side).

Having said that about olympic / wtf, there's a guy I used to know through work who does wtf and said they went all out hitting eachother. Don't know where he did it, think in clonsilla. So maybe there's a difference between WTF & Olympic TKD, I actually don't really know...

thanks

It probably is man, As I said I've seen some great fighters from other TKD clubs at the open Karate tournements. It seems like two completly different martial arts the one your describing and the one I mentioned.I don't know about the orginisations in TKD. I train In shotokan and when I see a style so simular like TKD being trained in full armour at extortionate prices it just bugs me. But I am not saying anything about TKD across the board because I think TKD is like Shotokan in that respect, So many different clubs and orginisations of Shotokan they might aswell be different martial arts. Thats why I stick With JKA karate, its consistant, active, and evolving every day.

SBG Ireland

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

3) S.T.A.B. im not a knife guy or a weapon guy but this would NEVER work, while hes tryin to hold my arm im just gonna punch the head off him with my other arm! For a guy who comes from an "alive" training background this is dead training if iv ever seen it...and yes iv seen Carls clips online

lol yeah in all the years karl's doing this course all over the world he's never had someone try this haha :rolleyes:

yomchi

This thread is kind of pointless, JimKel your post about the WTF Taekwon-Do is a bit childish, as you argue who's club is tougher. WTF is a sport, its their way of doing things, why rubbish it? Infact they are great athletes and probably the best kickers of all martial sports.
They do what they do and they enjoy it. They don't in general advertise their sport as self defence.
Live and let live guys, why are we so botheredabout what other individuals do?

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

What ITF club do you know of does Full contact sparring/competition? I've never heard of any in Ireland doing so.

Also it's worth remembering that WTF sparring is full contact, ITFers are easily as likely, if not more likely to pull their kicks as per example above.

Ah come one Tim! There's no such thing as semi or light contact in this country

TKD SC

Tim_Murphy wrote:

What ITF club do you know of does Full contact sparring/competition? I've never heard of any in Ireland doing so.

Also it's worth remembering that WTF sparring is full contact, ITFers are easily as likely, if not more likely to pull their kicks as per example above.

Hi Tim,

As I said, I'm not sure on the contact in WTF. I did hear of my former work colleauge who did full contact WTF sparring, yet I also hear of the olympic non touch type TKD. Can anyone clear this up? I suppose I was just stating that ITF is certainly different to WTF. And I don't want to get into any ITF v WTF silly debate! Or any Ma vs another MA debate, as it's been done to death and is usually pointless!

I can only really speak for ITF, and say that we wear gloves and foot pads and there is certainly contact! Given that we do drills with kicks and kick eachother in sparring (I've never pulled a kick in sparring!, missed yes, pulled no!!), therefore I wouldnt think it likely or more likely to pull the kick as per example above unless they weren't trained properly or just couldnt kick!

Anyway, I wouldnt really recommend kicks in that circumstance, except for one good low one!

As PMA-Ireland said, there's always clubs that do full contact! I can only speak for INTA clubs, and certainly a lot don't do heavy sparring at all. There's a couple that will do heavy sparring, mainly depending on whose down that night, and usually its just BB's who'll decide go at it against eachother. Or in squad sessions, it would be heavy enough. On the competition side it varies a lot also. Some referees will jump in if there's one semi hard punch, while others will let you batter eachother! Depends on the country you're in too.

Hope that helped.

Simon

Jimkel

Jon wrote:

This thread is kind of pointless, JimKel your post about the WTF Taekwon-Do is a bit childish, as you argue who's club is tougher. WTF is a sport, its their way of doing things, why rubbish it? Infact they are great athletes and probably the best kickers of all martial sports.
They do what they do and they enjoy it. They don't in general advertise their sport as self defence.
Live and let live guys, why are we so botheredabout what other individuals do?

I didnt argue which club is tougher, I was stating that they say that to us, we've been challenged by this club, and they critisise our training methods, they say "Why dont you use mats, thats a stupid way to train" or "how can you practice your head kicks without armour" some of the more immature teenagers there also openly say to me that their club is tougher and the fact that they wear armour is proof that they're tougher as they hit so hard they require armour etc.

That kind of crap.

To that I simply say, "loose the armour and we'll see" (Which of course they refuse to do:rolleyes: ) I was posting to illustrate the ignorance of this club not to say "My clubs better then yours" that would be childish. maybe you should read a post with a little more care before you misinterpret and reply.

I also stated that I know nothing of the orginisations in the TKD world, I never referred to WTF as the subject.

In fact I believe I opened my post with saying I will not say anything bad about a style rather some practitioners of a style who are friends of mine(Who happen to train in TKD).

I assume you too practise TKD to just go on the automatic defensive whenever someone mentions TKD.

so in future
READ MY POST BEFORE GETTING ON THE DEFENSIVE

yomchi

"Loose the armour and we'll see" - very mature, how old are you?. I'd put my money on the WTF guy any day with or without armour. I don't practice WTF TKD btw.

This is TKD at the Olympics, practiced by WTF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGz35FyV0U

SorGan

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

hey im new to hear been a boxer most of my life and have been doing Thai Boxing past two tears...i think apart from havin a gun in ur hand best martial arts are boxin or thai without a doubt...everything thing else just wont work (in my opinion)
as for arts that annoy me...

boxing is a good sport alright

SorGan

Jimkel wrote:

I didnt argue which club is tougher, I was stating that they say that to us, we've been challenged by this club, and they critisise our training methods, they say "Why dont you use mats, thats a stupid way to train" or "how can you practice your head kicks without armour" some of the more immature teenagers there also openly say to me that their club is tougher and the fact that they wear armour is proof that they're tougher as they hit so hard they require armour etc.

That kind of crap.

To that I simply say, "loose the armour and we'll see" (Which of course they refuse to do:rolleyes: ) I was posting to illustrate the ignorance of this club not to say "My clubs better then yours" that would be childish. maybe you should read a post with a little more care before you misinterpret and reply.

I also stated that I know nothing of the orginisations in the TKD world, I never referred to WTF as the subject.

In fact I believe I opened my post with saying I will not say anything bad about a style rather some practitioners of a style who are friends of mine(Who happen to train in TKD).

I assume you too practise TKD to just go on the automatic defensive whenever someone mentions TKD.

so in future
READ MY POST BEFORE GETTING ON THE DEFENSIVE

:rolleyes:
i agree, that would be childish indeed

pma-ire

Jimkel wrote:

I also stated that I know nothing of the orginisations in the TKD world.

maybe you should research your subject matter before you post??

Jimkel

Guys for gods sake I dont know what post you are all reading but I said nothing bad about TKD WTF damnit i didnt even mention the WTF only to point out that I know nothing of it and My subject matter was a class of people who train in my hall who are constantly insulting my class despite the fact that we have been nothing but polite to them, Go back read my original post and think about it. Because of the sheer ignorance and gang up attitude of you guys I'm pulling from this thread, because there is no point talking to peaple who only hear what they wanna hear.

Jimkel

Jon wrote:

"Loose the armour and we'll see" - very mature, how old are you?. I'd put my money on the WTF guy any day with or without armour. I don't practice WTF TKD btw.

This is TKD at the Olympics, practiced by WTF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfGz35FyV0U

First of all I dont know if he wtf or not
secondly, I fought him, he's an freind of a friend, And I won as I have always won against Any TKD fighter I have ever fought in any tournement I have ever fought. Thats just true think what you want about it.

SorGan

Jimkel wrote:

Word!!

Therefore I will not say anything bad about a style rather some practitioners of a style who are friends of mine.

They Study TKD, and they wear armour and pads when they spar, even in tournement. WHAT is the point of that?? there is a TKD club on after my Karate class on wednesdays, we are fighting with no armour on a hard cold floor in our bare feet, head shots allowed. Then these guys come in with their mats, armour and do drills and then have the audacity to claim there club is tougher>>>>>Loose the armour and I'll consider that claim. How can you learn to fight if you've never had a good kick in the head, or punch in the nose etc.

I was outside a chipper one time with my sensie's and a friend of theres, A TKD 5th dan, He was being slagged by some scangers about his long hair, then one of them started pushing him and threw a punch. well The TKD dude Kicked the scanger in the face and....Nothing, he was so used to pulling his kicks he actually pulled his kick in a real life situation!!!! we then proceded to stop this TKD guy from getting battered by getting him the hell out of there.

So no insult to TKD because I've seen some really good TKD fighters , but these guys, their being ripped off for a class in which they learn how to make a fool out of them selves in a self defence situation. At least their expensive gi's look cool :rolleyes:

i think this sums it up..also , long hair is for sissys

SorGan

im not a tdk man in ANY respect, but one main reason for wearing armor in any combat training would be to increase contact to the point of simulating reality as close as possible.

bigwoodenspoon

well SBG Ireland with "all the years karl's doing this course all over the world" i should hope that someone would have tried it...but there's a difference between trying it and doing it...for instance im guessin by ur name ur a jitz/mma guy so prob a good striker, have you tried to functionally resist against the STAB techniques?? because in my opinion they do look flawed and kinda risky!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7410961341925544918&q=stab%2C+karl+tanswell

moving across the tip (sharp bit) of a blade seems kinda crazy, and what if he had another knife?? :rolleyes:

Sorgan ya i think boxing is a great sport but i think it also one of the most practical forms of self defence (along with thai) because ur just fightin all the time and ur gettin fit and strong! not like some of the other crazy madness that people are teaching/trying to flogg off as selfdefence!

JohnMc1

My experiences with it here are limited but in the US TKD is the worst. Its such a watered down joke its hard to find any benefits to it. $1,000 annual membership you should be able to know how to fight full contact [Even if your goal isn't to be a fighter you should be able to take hits in the untimely event you have to defend yourself on the street]

Alot of the TMAs have went that route. They are just overglorified daycare centers for the soccer moms.

Roper

JohnMc1 wrote:

Alot of the TMAs have went that route. They are just overglorified daycare centers for the soccer moms.

Soccer Moms eh?... and eh, how could one set up one of these centres... for... the eh... benifit of the children... out there. Just like my hero, Big Ern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIi2GGnNDNQ

SBG Ireland

bear in mind you're watching a 2 min highlight...fairly hard to judge from there. even so you can see near the end the guy with the boxing glove trying just what you are saying. will he land some shots, yes but when you get good at the 2 on 1 you can keep him off balance which hugely reduces their power and then you work your 3 attacks relentlessly.

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

have you tried to functionally resist against the STAB techniques??

yes and its far superior to anything i've tried

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

because in my opinion they do look flawed and kinda risky!

yes fighting someone with a knife is kinda risky lol

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

moving across the tip (sharp bit) of a blade seems kinda crazy, and what if he had another knife?? :rolleyes:

indeed what if he did, or if he had a gun or if his friend was behind you with a knife, gun and bat or if there was 10 of them on elephants with machine guns........

but i think it also one of the most practical forms of self defence (along with thai) because ur just fightin all the time and ur gettin fit and strong!

agree with you 100%

O'Leprosy

JohnMc1 wrote:

My experiences with it here are limited but in the US TKD is the worst. Its such a watered down joke its hard to find any benefits to it. $1,000 annual membership you should be able to know how to fight full contact [Even if your goal isn't to be a fighter you should be able to take hits in the untimely event you have to defend yourself on the street]

Alot of the TMAs have went that route. They are just overglorified daycare centers for the soccer moms.

Yeah, I beleive TKD in the US is APPALING. I'm not trying to make enemies of WTF people as the WTF is mcuh different over here, but 99% of US clubs are WTF. Knew a fella who went to work in Chicago, checked out web, magazines etc looking for ITF TKD in Chicago, could only find one club half an hours drive from the city. Surprising that ITF is not a bit more popular there given that someone with a media profile of Chuck Norris is a leading ITFer.

Nothingcompares wrote:

I really dislike BJJ because all the guys that do it think it' the best form of self-defense in the world and is fool-proof in a fight on the street. Nobody actually says this but it's easy for me to make this claim because I may feel it's a true based on casual conversations.

Well, I must plead guilty here :rolleyes: I know, me especially, BJJers go on about it's effectiveness etc and I can see why it can become a pain in the behind, but still, when you look at the early UFC's, strikers were just rolled over by BJJ. But it's not foolproof by any means. In a real situation, a good punch to the face or kick to the nuts, whatever, can take anyone out. Even a BJJer

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

hey im new to hear been a boxer most of my life and have been doing Thai Boxing past two tears...i think apart from havin a gun in ur hand best martial arts are boxin or thai without a doubt...everything thing else just wont work (in my opinion)
as for arts that annoy me...

1) MMA apart from the very best guys like Couture etc it all just look like two guys outside a bar brawling, terrible to watch n just not my bag baby!

4) Traditional martial arts (like cowzerp said) wher uv big fat over the hill guys tellin u they can blow fire out their ass n drop u with a jedi mind trick, when their just hidin behind their bellys and their black belts...i know 15yr old young lads that would hand them their lazy ass on a plate!

anyway thats just my two cents...like i said im a striker at heart n boxin has been around the longest and aint goin nowhere!

As you said your a striker at heart " boxin or thai without a doubt...everything thing else just wont work ". Reckon Brazilian Jui Jitsu / Judo / Wrestling doesn't work ? Boxed for a year or two myself in my teens, and the aliveness of the training and less is more princible of just concentrating on punching power and less 'fancy tricks' to do the damage applies. But 2 things about Boxing.

In my school you knew who were the boxers and who was particularily good at boxing. So if it was kicking off with one of them, a blow or two may have been exchanged but then it was grab him, get into a clinch, then quickly both ended on the floor with the result been decided by a schoolboy headlock or one fella sitting on his chest in the mount. Since fighting consists of 3 ranges, striking, clinch and ground, boxing can only be applied to one. And if you haven't got devasting punching power any halfwit will quickly see that your a trained boxer and quickly change tatics to wrestle with you and it ending on the ground.What good is boxing then ?

Also, a friend of mine who done boxing and Thai most of his life, done a bit of Karate and TKD also, told me once when he got into a street scrap (this guy was quite found of scrapping in his time ) he concentrated on fighting just like he would box in the ring. Said it wasn't any good, didn't go into details but that's all he said. Others may have a different experience, but that was his.

Everyman to his own, but I prefer MMA to boxing a hundred times over. MMA has been described as the Decatholon of fighting, an MMA fighter has to box, kick,wrestle, BJJ,shoot,takedowns,sweeps,knees,elbows etc, boxing just doesn't compare, but everyone to their own. Maybe if you tried some BJJ for a while it might give you an understanding of the chess game that grappling is. I felt the same about grappling as you do before I took up BJJ, it's like watching two pub brawlers floundering around aimlessly on the ground, but beleive me, when 2 guys know what their at, it's a chest game.

JohnMc1

Roper wrote:

Soccer Moms eh?... and eh, how could one set up one of these centres... for... the eh... benifit of the children... out there. Just like my hero, Big Ern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIi2GGnNDNQ

Martial Arts clubs are run alot differently than in Ireland. They are full time and run for profit [The club owner aka Sensei wants to make a living out it]and they aren't run out of the local community centers a couple nights a week like most clubs outside of Dublin and Cork are run.

The Soccer Moms usually just drop the kids off at the classes [ Classes are through out the day since the clubs are full-time] and pick them up when class is over. Hence my comment of they are day care centers [expensive ones at that since most club fee can range to an annual of $1,000+]

O'Leprosy wrote:

Yeah, I beleive TKD in the US is APPALING. I'm not trying to make enemies of WTF people as the WTF is mcuh different over here, but 99% of US clubs are WTF. Knew a fella who went to work in Chicago, checked out web, magazines etc looking for ITF TKD in Chicago, could only find one club half an hours drive from the city. Surprising that ITF is not a bit more popular there given that someone with a media profile of Chuck Norris is a leading ITFer.

It is. I tried it years ago and quit after a few months. They are all about the stuff you see in JCVD movies or in the latest version of Power Rangers. The politics in US TKD clubs is unbelieveably unbearable.

bigwoodenspoon

just wonderin wouldnt it be fair to say MMA just a modern form of JKD,was watching Bruce Lee ( on TV ) and he was boxing,kicking,"rolling" and then finished with an armbar sounds familiar. :rolleyes: Then to see that some of these MMA'ers /SBG come from a JKD back ground..........isnt this all just a repackagen of an ole Bruce Lee method? I mean he had a bit of Kali ( stick 'n' knife ) a bit of boxing and a bit of grappling with a fair bit of kicken put in too....

So its just a rebranding of JKD...and its good bizzness ( and thats what MMA is, one of the best sport bizzness's on the planet because it gives the general public what ever they want, its like a fast food restarant ) to have a bit of everything and along with that every gym/school has only got about 5% of it's student's who actualy fight, the other 95% are keep fitter's who get a high off of talking about what there "friend's" did in the ring/cage...thats just as bad,as the traditional guys,still talking about their teacher's (Master/Sifu/Guru) past glories............so to honest every one is just as bad as each other!!
I know guy's who could fight like hell, then joined a martial art and then couldnt fight! for example the ground game is too slow "unreal" for the street and as for the fat traditional guy's they too like the many of todays MMA & even many Boxin/Muay Thai live in a land of make believe. They believe they can fight because the coach/"Guru" has fought.........its all balls...every one believes there own hype. Every one just spends to much time in the land of make believe...........................but at end of the day each to their own and i suppose different horses for different courses! So what if you (or me) doesnt think it work's...:)

Roper

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

just wonderin wouldnt it be fair to say MMA just a modern form of JKD,was watching Bruce Lee ( on TV ) and he was boxing,kicking,"rolling" and then finished with an armbar sounds familiar. :rolleyes: Then to see that some of these MMA'ers /SBG come from a JKD back ground..........isnt this all just a repackagen of an ole Bruce Lee method? I mean he had a bit of Kali ( stick 'n' knife ) a bit of boxing and a bit of grappling with a fair bit of kicken put in too....

Thats a fair comment, except for the "repackagen" bit. My understanding of JKD is that it was meant to be a constantly evolving thing, so for me MMA isn't repackaged its a continuition of what JKD was.

Anyway:

its good bizzness ( and thats what MMA is, one of the best sport bizzness's on the planet because it gives the general public what ever they want, its like a fast food restarant )

If I wanted to run a school that made lots of cash and gave the public what they wanted I'd go back to teachin TKD. In my experience from coaching martial arts, the vast majority of people don't want what MMA offers. No, correction, they want what MMA offers but they don't want the hard work and athleticism that goes into getting it. But then, I suppose every martial art could say the same.

Still, for a guy who says each to their own I reckon you have a lot of very considered opinions on what people do. To be honest, I reckon you're a troll because you seem to be pushing all the right buttons to get a reaction out of certain people (person?).

bigwoodenspoon

Forgive me if im wrong but wasnt the thread on this "opinions on worst arts and why", and "what arts annoy you and why they may do so?"
how do u figure im a troll...i stated in my 1st post that im new to the forum, and im kinda lost as to whos buttons im pushing?? i dont know any1 here
i havnt singled out any particular style or arts infact i listed a few different arts that i dont really like and that in my humble opinion i dont think would work! n like i said their's heaps of boxers or thai guys too, all over the world with their heads in the clouds...who hitch a ride on whatever their teachers/trainers have done!
i was simply posting jus like other people who posted about TKD or points sparring martial arts. the reason i ended with each to thier own is that this is a forum and so should be about disscussion and debate...different people prefer different things, its the spice ay life. debates shouldnt get personal dats not wha their about...im certainly not gonna get personal and like i said i dnt know any1 so how could i??

as for what u said about people not wanting to work/train hard i agree with u 100% and thats why i was on about the GURU FAT BOYS of the world who claim to have fighting ability :rolleyes: but really couldnt order a Big Mac without stoppin for breath!

Pride Fighter

What really annoys me is jeet kune do. It is the biggest pseudo martial art around. It has deviated from what bruce lee wanted it to be originally. There is an art that milks their students for all their money. I am sure bruce is turning in his grave!!

cowzerp

i think this topic is going well-there is no right or wrong answers-just some good discussion and debate, this is how we all learn and understand other unfamiliar arts to ours..

pma-ire

Pride Fighter wrote:

What really annoys me is jeet kune do. It is the biggest pseudo martial art around. It has deviated from what bruce lee wanted it to be originally. There is an art that milks their students for all their money. I am sure bruce is turning in his grave!!

jkd has spread into many things since bruce lee developed it. you could even say that it was the base for mma and the sbg name comes from a concept of lee's about fighting "straight blast" strikes.

the concept of jkd is to adpot fighting aspects from styles that as useful to what you want to do with your martial arts, and concentrate on that.

dan inosanto is 70 now and holds a black belt in bjj!!

now they may charge a lot for seminars and classes. but so does everyone else!

Nothingcompares

Boxen and a bit of tai boxen iz da bezt.

crazy monkey

The worst martial art in the world is...the one that doesn't give the student/practictioner/competitor what s/he is looking for.
Martial art/s
Two words ok? We all agree on this so far?
Martial - to be lethal
Art - form of teaching/prescribed movements/cultural artefact...
define these two words anyway you want but they do encompass all that the ''martial artist'' could possibly be seeking

Martial - Krav maga/ reality based self defense/ mma/ boxing* some other ''arts'' in my opinion but I won't get too far into that...

Art - kung fu/kenpo/tae kwon do/judo/bjj/mma/savate/wrestling/sambo/boxing* and all other styles with a sporting outlet...

So far I would think that most people might agree with me [ah presumption the mother of all feck ups] so it is my considered opinion that the worst martial art is the martial art that does nopt reflect what the student wants from it.
Some of us like to compete, others to perform kata, others the physical fitness, mental focus, various reasons and if we can find a martial art that offers us exactly what we want we are laughing.
The is no such thing as a ''bad'' martial art...they offer something different from each other and it's up to the person to decide whether a particular martial art is what they want in their life...

Agree or disagree I don't really mind...

After all it's just my two cents

*side note I personally consider boxing a martial art just like greco roman wrestling, sambo and savate they were all created and evolved in ''western civilisations'' not the orient but that does not make them any less of a martial art

ciao

:cool:

SorGan

crazy monkey wrote:

The worst martial art in the world is...the one that doesn't give the student/practictioner/competitor what s/he is looking for.
Martial art/s
Two words ok? We all agree on this so far?
Martial - to be lethal
Art - form of teaching/prescribed movements/cultural artefact...
define these two words anyway you want but they do encompass all that the ''martial artist'' could possibly be seeking

Martial - Krav maga/ reality based self defense/ mma/ boxing* some other ''arts'' in my opinion but I won't get too far into that...

Art - kung fu/kenpo/tae kwon do/judo/bjj/mma/savate/wrestling/sambo/boxing* and all other styles with a sporting outlet...

So far I would think that most people might agree with me [ah presumption the mother of all feck ups] so it is my considered opinion that the worst martial art is the martial art that does nopt reflect what the student wants from it.
Some of us like to compete, others to perform kata, others the physical fitness, mental focus, various reasons and if we can find a martial art that offers us exactly what we want we are laughing.
The is no such thing as a ''bad'' martial art...they offer something different from each other and it's up to the person to decide whether a particular martial art is what they want in their life...

Agree or disagree I don't really mind...

After all it's just my two cents

*side note I personally consider boxing a martial art just like greco roman wrestling, sambo and savate they were all created and evolved in ''western civilisations'' not the orient but that does not make them any less of a martial art

ciao

:cool:

Martial \Mar"tial\ martialis of or belonging to
Mars, the god of war.
Of, pertaining to, or suited for, war, military.

ART. (in the context of martial) a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art.

martial doesn't mean lethal or even effective,
and art doesn't necessarily exclude by definition effective or lethal, in this context.

O'Leprosy

It's AMAZING how so many from a striking background dismiss grappling, but yet have never tried it.( Sorry if I sound sarcastic but Christ, how often does the obvious have to be pointed out).

Nothingcompares wrote:

Boxen and a bit of tai boxen iz da bezt.

Well that's been proving so many times when Thai boxers and boxers thrashed the Gracie's hasn't it. When the Gracies moved from Brazil to California in the late 80's and put up $50,000 or so if anyone from any style could come into their gym and beat them, boxers were breaking down the door to get in and get the $50,000. NOT.

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

just wonderin wouldnt it be fair to say MMA just a modern form of JKD,was watching Bruce Lee ( on TV ) and he was boxing,kicking,"rolling" and then finished with an armbar sounds familiar. :rolleyes: Then to see that some of these MMA'ers /SBG come from a JKD back ground..........isnt this all just a repackagen of an ole Bruce Lee method? I mean he had a bit of Kali ( stick 'n' knife ) a bit of boxing and a bit of grappling with a fair bit of kicken put in too....

Never met a JKDer yet in a MMA club. Maybe that's just me. Vale Tudo (Portuguese for anything goes) has been going in Brazil decades before Bruce was ever born. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

every gym/school has only got about 5% of it's student's who actualy fight, the other 95% are keep fitter's who get a high off of talking about what there "friend's" did in the ring/cage...thats just as bad,as the traditional guys,still talking about their teacher's (Master/Sifu/Guru) past glories............so to honest every one is just as bad as each other!! ....They believe they can fight because the coach/"Guru" has fought.........its all balls...every one believes there own hype. Every one just spends to much time in the land of make believe

Well, youv'e definetly got a point there !!!

bigwoodenspoon wrote:

for example the ground game is too slow "unreal" for the street ...:

Boxing often goes 12 rounds, that's because you have 2 trianed men of around the equal weight who KNOW WHAT THEIR AT. If it can go 12 rounds, and very often does, it could equally be said to be " too slow "unreal" for the street". As I said or any Judo/Wrestling/BJJ guy will tell you" when 2 guys know what their at, it's a chest game. " If you don't know how to grapple and your up against say, a BJJ blue belt, it's over in a flash. Just drop into John Kavanagh, Andy Ryan, or whoever, tell them it's a load of bollox and then - you might learn something. .

As regards trad MA's and their usefullness, well maybe UFC legend Bas Rutten and George St. Pierre had something to say about it

George St. Pierre "I started Kyokushin Karate when I was seven years old. I liked Karate, like any other martial art, you're alone. You decide your own destiny. I'm very happy I learned karate when I was young. A lot of people told me that it's useless in fighting, but they're wrong. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't done it, I wouldn't be at this level today. Karate made me a lot stronger, and it made me flexible and athletic like I am right now. When I'm fighting, I'm not doing kata, but I use a lot of kicks and techniques that I learned from Kyokushin."

Bas Rutten " "I started in traditional martial arts and hold ranking black belts in Mas Oyama's Japanese Kyokushin Karate and Korea's Tae Kwon Do. Traditional martial arts offer a great foundation for mixed martial arts and it upsets me when people put down the value of traditional training ... The combination of traditional techniques with takedowns and submission grappling is sure to give you an unbeatable fighting system. To be successful, keep an open mind to all the fighting arts and what they have to offer."

SorGan

well its been stated that mma is a fighting concept, does this concept differ from the concept of jdk?
if so, then how.

if memory serves doesn't/didn't sbg have associations with an instructor of jkd?

cowzerp

O'Leprosy wrote:

Well that's been proving so many times when Thai boxers and boxers thrashed the Gracie's hasn't it. When the Gracies moved from Brazil to California in the late 80's and put up $50,000 or so if anyone from any style could come into their gym and beat them, boxers were breaking down the door to get in and get the $50,000. NOT.

Stand up fighters train to win stand up fights-bjj train to pull stand up fighters to the ground where most stand up fighters are lost-that is why bjj was succesful. this changed when stand up fighters learned how to defend take downs and nearly always beat the bjj fighters when both are at the top level in ufc-bjj is cool but not as good as the gracies think now that people know what it is-imagine fighting without punches then someday a fella started punching-the opponent would not know what to do, but he would learn eventually. so it has proven nothing.

O'Leprosy

cowzerp wrote:

Stand up fighters train to win stand up fights-bjj train to pull stand up fighters to the ground where most stand up fighters are lost-that is why bjj was succesful. this changed when stand up fighters learned how to defend take downs and nearly always beat the bjj fighters when both are at the top level in ufc-bjj is cool but not as good as the gracies think now that people know what it is-imagine fighting without punches then someday a fella started punching-the opponent would not know what to do, but he would learn eventually. so it has proven nothing.

" bjj train to pull stand up fighters to the ground where most stand up fighters are lost-that is why bjj was succesful. this changed when stand up fighters learned how to defend take downs.... imagine fighting without punches then someday a fella started punching-the opponent would not know what to do, but he would learn eventually." Couldn't agree more with you, 100%, and that's what happened. As I said in my previous posting " (street) fighting consists of 3 ranges, striking, clinch and ground, ". To defend the takedown, strikers had to learn Wrestling (in particular Greco Roman style), to get in the underhooks and sprall etc. But even with that, there was still the chance of been taken to the ground, and so they also HAD to learn BJJ because it can often go there regardless of how good your takedown defence is ( wrestling also has ground techniques, but BJJ is better for the ground generally. There is some similarity in certain techniques between BJJ,Judo and wrestling, wouldn't claim to be an expert on it and maybe someone else could elaborate). And so the tables started to be turned and then BJJers, grapplers, had to start developing their standup striking.

cowzerp wrote:

(strikers) nearly always beat the bjj fighters when both are at the top level in ufc

. Not true, present UFC champions

Heavyweight - Randy Couture, orginal style - Wrestling,
Light Heavyweight - Chuck Liddell orginal style - done both Kenpo and Wrestling in his youth
Middleweight - Anderson Silva, Muay Thai (Blackbelt in BBJ also)
Welterweight Matt Serra - BJJ
Lightweight - Sean Sherk - Wrestling

Everyone has to have be competent in all the ranges in the UFC nowadays or their weak range will be exposed and exploited. I would say of all the styles, wrestling has had the most success in recent years, ( plain old boxing the least ? ). Their takedowns are obviously very strong against for a predominate striker even with decent wrestling skills to try and avoid been taken to the floor, they are very adaptable to BJJ and can be a fearsome opponent to a BJJer with their ground and pound. And to think, 13/14 years ago, wrestling would have been the system most people would have dismissed.

I'm not saying that everybody should stop there style of training and immediately join an MMA club, ( I only do BJJ myself these days, not because BJJ can handle all situations/dangers and all that crap, I'll leave that to the Krav Maga boys, [still up to me old devilment !!!] well, just let's say, I'm not as young as I used to be). But some people are living in fantasy land if they think that Joe Bloggs cannot get a hold of you, clinch/wrestle a bit and land on the ground with you. Striker in that position has only the same chance as Joe Bloggs, because striker knows as little Joe Bloggs of how to defend himself on the ground, especially if striker is the one who lands on his back. "Oh no, he'll say, should have listened to that guy o'scappyskin and learned a bit of ground defence ". Besides, BJJers can always pull beautiful woman, it's a scientically proving fact.