When did that mean something productive?

Kipperhell

I was listening to Joe Duffy today when a woman came on giving out about the people criticising the people complaining about the abducted kid's parents. She said
" These people should stop being so critical and do something productive like pray"

I get praying as a way of gaining peace of mind but it doesn't product anything and little use in a real sense.

Kernel

Some people believe that prayers produce results, some people don't. Here's a link to a study that seemed to prove the (physical) healing powers of prayers for example.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.php

Red Alert

I'm sure she was a good living woman who meant well. That kind of comment would have been common amongst people of my grandmother's generation, i'd say more due to the fact they were more religiously/institutionally observant than anything else.

Dave!

Kernel wrote:

Some people believe that prayers produce results, some people don't. Here's a link to a study that seemed to prove the (physical) healing powers of prayers for example.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.php

Why don't those religious bodies finance an experiment to see if praying has any positive physical effects on an amputee?

I'll convert to Christianity tomorrow if you can pray an arm into growing back.

No, didn't think so.

pbsuxok1znja4r

DaveMcG wrote:

Why don't those religious bodies finance an experiment to see if praying has any positive physical effects on an amputee?

I'll convert to Christianity tomorrow if you can pray an arm into growing back.

No, didn't think so.

Worst argument.

Winters

Its been proven may a time that the power of prayer does not make a single difference. Only problem is, when proven wrong, a strong cathloic can just say "Well, it was god's will" or something along those lines in an effort to show that they were not wrong.

Prayer does nothing but make someone feel better about themselves for doing something, even though it will do nothing whatsoever to help.

DaveMcG

DaveMcG wrote:

Why don't those religious bodies finance an experiment to see if praying has any positive physical effects on an amputee?

I'll convert to Christianity tomorrow if you can pray an arm into growing back.

No, didn't think so.

Can atheism make the arm grow back?h

FX Meister

What the hell is ateism? Does the amputee eat another arm in the hopes that his will grow back?

Call Me Jimmy

Deleted User wrote:

Can atheism make the arm grow back?h

It doesn't claim too, and because of that ye don't waste your time praying.

As has been said, praying, for people who believe in it can only make them feel better, it is psychological, just like being determined.

Dave!

scouser.tommy wrote:

Worst argument.

What's wrong with it exactly? If prayer has a physical healing effect on the heart, then surely it has a physical healing effect on the rest of the body. That is of course if you believe that it's divine power having a positive effect on the body, and not some sort of psychological effect.

Incidentally, other scientific research has shown completely contrary results to the results to those reached by the experiment posted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#Experimental_evaluation_of_prayer

Anyways, why doesn't Allah ever replace Palestinian children's arms when they're caught in the middle of an explosion?

Deleted User wrote:

Can atheism make the arm grow back?h

emm... no...

Guy:Incognito

If there was a god , with power to do somehtign about these things, why the hell (:) ) would he wait till someone asked him to intervene before doing something? Are we to belive that bad things only happen because some didnt pray quick enough?

DaveMcG wrote:

Anyways, why doesn't Allah ever replace Palestinian children's arms when they're caught in the middle of an explosion?

Duh, cos he's not the real god.

humbert

It's a silly notion but sometimes it does allow people comfort through delusion or denial when nothing constructive can be done. It may help people in cases where a positive attitude(hope) will help people but putting it forward as a constructive course of action is something that should probably be politely disregarded.

Dave!

Stekelly wrote:

If there was a god , with power to do somehtign about these things, why the hell (:) ) would he wait till someone asked him to intervene before doing something? Are we to belive that bad things only happen because some didnt pray quick enough?

Let's not generalise the thread into a discussion of bad things and good people; the religious folk are going to explain how prayer heals! I'd listen intently.

Stekelly wrote:

Duh, cos he's not the real god.

Doh! I've wasted my life!!!

Smellyirishman

Why won't he heal 'em?

Just for reference.

Catari Jaguar

That's like in the Sacred Heart magazine letters section. It's like "I wish to thank the Sacred Heart for helping my son to get a job/ my daughter have safe delivery/ my husband get over his disease... Thank you for answering my prayers"

The Sacred Heart and your prayers had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT!

People seriously think that if they ask for something it's magically gonna happen. Good stuff happens bad stuff happens. It just happens! If it's good then it was obviously the Good Lord or the Sacred Heart, and of course if it was bad well... hmmm Was that just God's way? If the Sacred Heart makes all this good happen then why does sh1t happen to people all the time?

Bloody Hocus Pocus superstition.

Catari Jaguar

Kernel wrote:

Some people believe that prayers produce results, some people don't. Here's a link to a study that seemed to prove the (physical) healing powers of prayers for example.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.php

Prayers may be a placebo for a healing effect, I dont see how it'l get that poor child back to her parents.

seamus

Lil Kitten wrote:

Prayers may be a placebo for a healing effect, I dont see how it'l get that poor child back to her parents.

Interestingly enough, proper scientific studies (perhaps the one that Dave linked to above) have had completely counter-placebo effects.
The people who were told that they were being prayed for, on the whole did worse than any other group.
Of course, for anything conclusive the experiment would have to be done a few times on different groups. It's a tough one to measure because there are so many possible things that could have an effect on one's recovery, that each permutation would need to be a different test group.

WindSock

I think the power of prayer can be likened to power of positive thought.

humbert

seamus wrote:

Interestingly enough, proper scientific studies (perhaps the one that Dave linked to above) have had completely counter-placebo effects.
The people who were told that they were being prayed for, on the whole did worse than any other group.
Of course, for anything conclusive the experiment would have to be done a few times on different groups. It's a tough one to measure because there are so many possible things that could have an effect on one's recovery, that each permutation would need to be a different test group.

A placebo will only affect the outcome if the cause is in some way psychological, and the person believes in it of course. Assuming both conditions are met there is no scientific reason why prayer wouldn't be as good a placebo as anything else.

McSandwich

boreds wrote:

I think the power of prayer can be likened to power of positive thought.

Good point, and no matter what your beliefs at least her intentions are good. If nothing else, many people find that prayers help them come to terms with tragedy (also part or the reason for having funerals). I'd prefer that to the rest of the time wasting self righteous moaning muppets who call Joe Duffy - what good are they doing?

The kid's parents may well have to live with this for the rest of their lives - I doubt they need to be reminded. The real wrong doers are the kidnappers, not the child's parents. They wouldn't be the first to do something like this - I see kids left in cars nearly every day.

As for sky news - earlier they were speculating that the child was dead because the police called a press conference. The also had their cameras right in the family's faces, and asking stupid questions, while they prayed in the church. ****ing **** (sky news that is).

Call Me Jimmy

McSandwich wrote:

As for sky news - earlier they were speculating that the child was dead because the police called a press conference. The also had their cameras right in the family's faces, and asking stupid questions, while they were prayed in the church. ****ing **** (sky news that is).

Yeah I saw that with the mother in the church, she could barely stand and had come to pray and they have cameras in the church. But because sky news are giving the story so much exosure they know she can't say no to anything.

DemonOfTheFall

http://www.unm.edu/~humanism/socvsjes.htm TBH.

I would have fallen off my chair laughing if I heard that moron ringing into the radio show.

DarkJager

Praying is a waste of time as is religion. Its an excuse for weak minded people to have something to believe in, even though they have no proof what they believe in ever existed. Praying doesn't stop wars, it doesn't stop natural disasters and its not going to benefit you in anyway.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Kipperhell wrote:

I was listening to Joe Duffy today when a woman came on giving out about the people criticising the people complaining about the abducted kid's parents. She said
" These people should stop being so critical and do something productive like pray"

I get praying as a way of gaining peace of mind but it doesn't product anything and little use in a real sense.

HAHAHA oh the inroning!

McSandwich

DarkJager wrote:

Praying is a waste of time as is religion. Its an excuse for weak minded people to have something to believe in, even though they have no proof what they believe in ever existed. Praying doesn't stop wars, it doesn't stop natural disasters and its not going to benefit you in anyway.

Is that any worse than believing in ideas such as capitalism, a political ideal or 'religously' following football teams, musicians, or worst of all celebrities?

Do any of these things have true meaning or any real value? If so, what gives them value and meaning?

McSandwich

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

http://www.unm.edu/~humanism/socvsjes.htm TBH.

it's a bit contrived don't you think?

Kernel

DarkJager wrote:

Praying is a waste of time as is religion. Its an excuse for weak minded people to have something to believe in, even though they have no proof what they believe in ever existed. Praying doesn't stop wars, it doesn't stop natural disasters and its not going to benefit you in anyway.

Weak minded fools eh? Isaac Newton was a weak minded fool? Ah here, read this link, and a few books on theology (specifically the implications of free will). Feckin' spiritual paupers nowadays.... :rolleyes:

Kernel

McSandwich wrote:

it's a bit contrived don't you think?

I agree. The wise man understands he knows little. A little knowledge can be dangerous. You cannot teach a man that which he thinks he already knows etc.

Human logic is a great tool, but these all knowing atheists (probably teenagers in many cases, or hedonists fixated on self-indulgence and self-importance) show more ignorance than someone with an open mind on the subject. Human logic once dictated that the world was flat, and that was generally accepted at the time.

Kipperhell

The funnest aspect of this is that according to christian belief God will never interven in the human world. We ere given free will over everything it is up to us to do good or bad. As Jim Morrison said "You cannot pertition God with prayer"
You have a better chance of reducing Paris Hilton's sentence than God magically pointing out where the child is.
Prayer is only helpful to the individual and unfiy a group. It makes the whole process of being a siant laughable. It makes as much sense to make anybody who gets a hole in one a siant.
The whole concept of spending your life in isolation in a closed order to me is an example of a wasted life that no matter who is God I can't seem him/her being happy with.
The child of a 13 year old who hung around a church is not my savior. To be told by an order that took money off people to reduce time in a netherworld what to think seems a litttle foolish. To refer to a may times compiled and translated book as the truth is insane.
Religion is a good way to create a working society so I see beifits but I also see the damge it can do to inividuals.

McSandwich

Kipperhell wrote:

The funnest aspect of this is that according to christian belief God will never interven in the human world. We ere given free will over everything it is up to us to do good or bad. As Jim Morrison said "You cannot pertition God with prayer"
You have a better chance of reducing Paris Hilton's sentence than God magically pointing out where the child is.
Prayer is only helpful to the individual and unfiy a group. It makes the whole process of being a siant laughable. It makes as much sense to make anybody who gets a hole in one a siant.
The whole concept of spending your life in isolation in a closed order to me is an example of a wasted life that no matter who is God I can't seem him/her being happy with.
The child of a 13 year old who hung around a church is not my savior. To be told by an order that took money off people to reduce time in a netherworld what to think seems a litttle foolish. To refer to a may times compiled and translated book as the truth is insane.
Religion is a good way to create a working society so I see beifits but I also see the damge it can do to inividuals.

Free Will is the philosophical doctrine that human beings have the power to choose from alternatives. Essentially that gives us the freedom to do what we like - good or evil, right or wrong. In my understanding, this does not predicate that "God will never interven in the human world." However, my free will could prevent God from intervening without a request to intervene. If I request help through prayer, then in answering, God would be helping in accordance with my will. Of course this help might go against the will of others but I'll leave that to the philosophers and theologians...

McSandwich

Kipperhell wrote:

The funnest aspect of this is that according to christian belief God will never interven in the human world.

Funny why? Because the religion is based on Jesus Christ who lived in 'the human world' for 33 years?

SimpleSam06

humbert wrote:

It's a silly notion but sometimes it does allow people comfort through delusion or denial when nothing constructive can be done.

When you think about it though, there are really very few situations where nothing constuctive can be done.

McSandwich wrote:

Of course this help might go against the will of others but I'll leave that to the philosophers and theologians...

Dance, mailman!

humbert

SimpleSam06 wrote:

When you think about it though, there are really very few situations where nothing constuctive can be done.

Well I was thinking along the lines of terminal illness and old age etc.

SimpleSam06

humbert wrote:

Well I was thinking along the lines of terminal illness and old age etc.

Well if one only cares about oneself, there isn't much you can do in the case of terminal illness. On the other hand, you could see it as the ultimate opportunity to do whatever you like; rob a bank, gamble away your life savings in vegas, go driving in a convertible on St Paddy's day wearing only a coat of green paint, sky's the limit really. I'd say there are lots of constructive things you can do in your old age too, especially with the advent of the internet...

Sangre

If you're truly terminal you are more than likely confined to a bed hooked up to dozens of tubes. Its not a movie of the week where you act out all your last wishes.

DemonOfTheFall

McSandwich wrote:

it's a bit contrived don't you think?

Contrived? Probably.

Relevant to my point that praying to some non-existant god will help this girl in anyway? Definitely.

McSandwich

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

Contrived? Probably.

Relevant to my point that praying to some non-existant god will help this girl in anyway? Definitely.

Based on this?

http://www.unm.edu/~humanism/socvsjes.htm

Please explain how/ why this is relevant?

Zillah

Kernel wrote:

Human logic is a great tool, but these all knowing atheists (probably teenagers in many cases, or hedonists fixated on self-indulgence and self-importance) show more ignorance than someone with an open mind on the subject.

Whoah, you went down hill fast. I'm 22. Is that ok? Or does it rule out the validity of my position based on age? I think you'll find the vast majority of Atheists are extremely open minded. Their position, by definition, amounts to "We lack sufficient evidence to conclude that God exists". New evidence may cause that position to change.

Human logic once dictated that the world was flat, and that was generally accepted at the time.

No, human presumption once dictated that the world was flat. The same kind of presumption that resuts in religious belief. Ships vanish over the horizon, the top of the mast being last, a little bit of observation and logic would show you that the world is probably round.

andy1249

Or does it rule out the validity of my position based on age?

Actually yes , it very much does , you are at that age when life has not yet thrown you the bodyblows it eventually will , you still think your indestructible and have no real tangible idea of your own vulnerabilites and mortality.
( Youth is wasted on the young ... no truer statement ever spoken ! )

That will come , and human nature being the way it is , you will take on board whatever delusions et all that give you peace of mind. ( a reason to live ...if you like ) .

Its all ahead of you really , it is very revealing to see on here the gleeful derision thrown at religions by the young , however the older generation keep this as a form of peace of mind , it allays a fear of Death , and no young person will ever appreciate this , Death is a very tangible daily thought for the older person , this daily fear has to be dealt with , and this more than anything else , is the basis of most religious beliefs. You will take on board whatever nonsense gives you peace of mind , something that has no value to you now , but will one day.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPiFhjCxXpk

Zillah

Andy, that has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen.

I guarantee you, short of me going completely insane, or there being a world shattering event like the bonefide return of Jesus, I will never, ever have religious belief. I'm well aware that I'll die, I've lost friends and family members, and no matter how cool I think it'd be to not actually die, I can't believe it without proof. And there is none.

Now, I don't know what sort of ignorant little man you were at 22 years of age, but I assure you, I have a well developed world view.

Of course, your whole argument ignores the fact that there have been plenty of atheists who lived to old age and never jumped on the belief-trolley.

andy1249

Now, I don't know what sort of ignorant little man you were at 22 years of age, but I assure you, I have a well developed world view.

That reactionary reply , as well as everything else in that post , is typical of what I would have said at 22 ....... !! Everyone else is stupid .... a classic 22 year old reply !!

And I said , " Whatever nonsense gives you peace of mind " , not necessarily religion , most people have delusions of some sort , whether you always think you have another 20 years no matter what age you are , or believing in Buddhism or forming some false truth in a nugget of quantum mechanics or just adopting a position of possibilites , like admitting you dont know everything !!

The nonsense will come .....everyone needs some kind of hope ....religious or otherwise ,

Believe me , you'll get there ....

Of course, your whole argument ignores the fact that there have been plenty of atheists who lived to old age and never jumped on the belief-trolley.

How could you possibly know what any atheist has thought from birth to death ? Is the nonsense starting already ?

humbert

Believing you are necessarily wiser because you are older is a delusion.

Ciaran500

andy1249 wrote:

How could you possibly know what any atheist has thought from birth to death ? Is the nonsense starting already ?

Are you trying to say that no one has ever gone through life an atheist?

Zillah

andy1249 wrote:

That reactionary reply , as well as everything else in that post , is typical of what I would have said at 22 ....... !! Everyone else is stupid .... a classic 22 year old reply !!

No I didn't say everyone else is stupid. You're building a strawman. I think what you are saying is fairly stupid, lets leave the rest of the human race out of this.

And I said , " Whatever nonsense gives you peace of mind " , not necessarily religion , most people have delusions of some sort , whether you always think you have another 20 years no matter what age you are , or believing in Buddhism or forming some false truth in a nugget of quantum mechanics or just adopting a position of possibilites

I have a rigorously sceptical out look on life, the chances of me indulging in delusion of any sort is highly unlikely. Obviously we can't see the future, but evidence so far would suggest that I will never indulge in unfounded beliefs.

like admitting you dont know everything !!

I'm painfully aware of how little I know (compared to what can be known, not neccessarily in relation to what the average person knows), and I will instantly admit that, I regularily do. Hence why I don't jump to conclusions without enough evidence.

The nonsense will come .....everyone needs some kind of hope ....religious or otherwise

Believe me , you'll get there ....

Somewhat tellingly, I'm not going to accept that position considering the only support for it is your unfounded opinion.

How could you possibly know what any atheist has thought from birth to death ? Is the nonsense starting already ?

Because they wrote books, made talks and had their final moments documented. There have been many people that were strong atheists right until the last moment.

humbert wrote:

Believing you are necessarily wiser because you are older is a delusion.

Exactly. Wisdom is a factor of how much you have learned and experienced. Older people will often have learned and experienced much, but assuming they have is a fallacy, as is assuming that someone who is young has not learned and experienced much.

Dave!

Ciaran500 wrote:

Are you trying to say that no one has ever gone through life an atheist?

Obviously not, cos everyone's as weak-minded as Andy!

Andy your posts make it sound like you're attempting to justify your own nonsense by saying "sure, everyone does it..... right?"

andy1249

Let me make some things clear ,

Im not religious , I dont have a religious bone in my body ,

Second , I wouldnt call myself an atheist either because I dont really know what that is , never being interested enough in religion or the lack of it to find out , I do believe that death is the end , the end of this particular conciousness , And I also believe that most people know this , religious or not.

I believe that when your young , death is something that happens to someone else , and is not tangibly tied to yourself , and that this only comes with age.
By this I dont mean that you dont understand , I mean that its so far away from you that it doesnt strike home like it does when your older , this comes with age.

This position of mine comes from experience , I travel a lot with work , have met a lot of people , young and old , and like to talk , so , I am pretty sure in this conviction of mine. ( not that I talk about death all the time , but you get a feel for people , how they live , their hopes and fears.)

While Im not religious , its easy to see its value to people , and this is a view that in my experience young people dont see , ( when your young its easy to jump on someones mistakes ) , its easy to deride until you see what these people actually gain from it , and that is always a way to deal with some kind of fear , something to turn to when things look black .

That is where Im coming from , people will find refuge from their fears , whatever that might be.

I'll give you an example , some years ago I was working with this woman , who's husband worked as a binman ,( back in poor Ireland that was a good job ! ) Aids was big news then and when the discussion came up she told me about the vaccine for aids that was given to her husband !!

I jumped on this and asked her how could she believe such nonsense , she rabidly defended it , I backed down , because she was clearly upset , it turns out that she needed to believe this because her husband was at risk , collecting bin bags in inner city dublin had a big aids risk back then !!
This is an extreme case but it illustrates my point , people will take refuge in nonsense to get them through the day ,

Everyone has their fears , and to me people with religion have an acute fear of death , it gets them through , it gives them hope , and rather than deride it , and take away that hope , I leave them be.

At an age like 22 we are in the enviable postion of not having developed the worries and fears that come with age , when these come , you need some refuge , however small or however large that refuge happens to be , these fears and anxieties will come , and in most cases they will probably be irrational ,like whatever solutions you take refuge in , but if they work for you they have value .

Thats my point ..... young people have a certain youthful and deliberate attitude , you like to think you'll be this way forever , but life erodes that and you will , like it or not , develop vulnerabilities and fears , whatever they may be , and you will deal with these , everyone does it differently , but in almost all cases they will be irrational fears and irrational solutions , thats not to say you'll get up on a box and shout your solutions to the world ,in most cases they will be private , and they will get you through , but they will not necessarily be true.

Deriding these , like deriding religion etc. , is to not realise their value. And they do have a value , a very real one to the individual involved.

By far the biggest fear anyone has to deal with is Death , ask any young person the last time they thought about death and they may not be able to put an exact date on it , Ask any older person and they will always say today!! Try it , ask , its a fact !
And how people deal with this is not to be derided , nonsense or not !!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

that was good, I liked it but it just wasn't condescending enough

once more with feeling, if you please

Zillah

Blah blah blah blah.

andy1249 wrote:

At an age like 22 we are in the enviable postion of not having developed the worries and fears that come with age , when these come , you need some refuge

No I don't, stop making baseless assertions.

Thats my point ..... young people have a certain youthful and deliberate attitude , you like to think you'll be this way forever , but life erodes that and you will , like it or not , develop vulnerabilities and fears , whatever they may be , and you will deal with these , everyone does it differently , but in almost all cases they will be irrational fears and irrational solutions

Ah, so now its "almost all" cases. So we've backed down on asserting that I personally will indulge in false beliefs. Great. Now wasn't that easy?

andy1249

Man you are as arrogant as any 22 year old Ive ever come across , .... its not all about you .... it never was ...... my points are all general ... and it only includes you as a young person in general .........

SimpleSam06

Zillah wrote:

I will never, ever have religious belief ... I can't believe it without proof. And there is none.

Theres a big difference between religious belief (dogmatic faith in the organised structures of religions, and that they hold the one true answer), and spiritual awareness. I think the divide between religious and atheist/agnostic is an artificial one, a false dichotomy. There are many shades of grey not just between the two extremes, but beyond either.

When we can adequately explain how puddles of inanimate mud hopped up and started to leave footprints on the moon (and seriously don't bother posting links to the current theories, they are more like theology than science), we will be far closer to a more complete understanding of our spiritual nature, or lack thereof. What I would call reason for optimism is the fact that life indubitably tends upwards.