Deep Live 1/2 Hand

ianmc38

I have 610. Villain covers. He's just arrived to the table and I've never seen/played with him before so no reads.

I limp KK UTG.

A few more limpers and he makes it 7 OTB. SB calls and I make it 37. Button thinks for a while and flat calls. SB calls.

Flop (115ish)

9 T J rainbow

I lead for 85. Anyone prefer a check?

Button thinks and makes it 200 or so.

I?

Ste05

Yikes!! What a nasty looking flop. I'd probably have checked here TBH, this flop just hits sooo many hands. Without a read I probably fold TBH. Although his PF bet sizing would indicate that he was an idiot. Very difficult spot indeed.

phantom_lord

min raise for info.



ugly spot. a fold's seems best, QQ is probably the worst hand he could have.

so deep and with that board, a check seems goot.

BigCityBanker

His preflop raise to 7 is pretty poor, what player like this sits down with a tank of 600+?

His preflop raise makes me think he is bad enough to repop AJ and AQ here, The hand id most be worried about is KQ.

I dont think I could continue with the hand, against an unknown I fold.

88 - QQ, KQ, AJ, AQ - I would begrudgingly include AA in his range along with J10, I think this range has us whipped.

mdwexford

yeah i think a check here is better

as played i think its a fold

Captain Tom

i check this flop everytime.as played fold.

Scouser in Dub

Just a couple of questions here but are ranges for limp reraising live when it's pot limit different to limp reraising NL?

I always seem to find limp rr is AA or KK could your opponent here know this and be looking to take advantage of a horrible flop for AA KK?

opr

Scouser in Dub wrote:

Just a couple of questions here but are ranges for limp reraising live when it's pot limit different to limp reraising NL?

I always seem to find limp rr is AA or KK could your opponent here know this and be looking to take advantage of a horrible flop for AA KK?

First his raise indicates that he is not good enough to be thinking like this. Also if Ian has never played him with it works vice versa and you need to know your opponent well and that they are capable of laying down KK , AA to make this kind of move.

Opr

sikes

Whats wrong with bloating the pot when there are loads of limpers who probably bad when deep and on the button?

ianmc38

Captain Tom wrote:

i check this flop everytime.

Yah it was a retarded flop bet. My default is to check that flop to avoid a playing for stacks situation on a horrific board. after the hand, I was close to reenacting the scene from fight club where ed norton starts knocking the crap outta himself

ianmc38

sikes wrote:

Whats wrong with bloating the pot when there are loads of limpers who probably bad when deep and on the button?

Im oop.

sikes

ianmc38 wrote:

Im oop.

Sorry I wasnt very clear. Im talking about the people who said that the button raise to 7 indicated he was an idiot.

When we are this deep I really dont like this line with KK. You have pretty much signalled what you have and he can call the 30 with a wide range of hands.

Captain Tom

ianmc38 wrote:

after the hand, I was close to reenacting the scene from fight club where ed norton starts knocking the crap outta himself

lol.

actually thinking again now this is a much closer decision live than it would be online.an awful lot of live players will raise this flop with AJ/KJ/QJ/QT type hands.also the raise to 7 looks more like a pot sweetener than a legitimate hand.i imagine most players will just pot it p/f with 99/TT/JJ.

ianmc38

Captain Tom wrote:

the raise to 7 looks more like a pot sweetener than a legitimate hand.i imagine most players will just pot it p/f with 99/TT/JJ.

Thats what i was thinking as well. I couldnt work out the reason for making it 7.

LuckyLloyd

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El Stuntman

LL, we don't know if the villain is bad or not

given that he sat down with more than 600, I wouldn't be rushing to class him as a donk...

phantom_lord

I think getting 300bbs in here would be really really bad.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In a live PL game most bad players will conveniently forget the pre - flop action if they flop TPTK (i.e. the nuts). A raise to 7 UTG will generally be a waste of a good hand when you take a flop against seven players. Limp re - raising allows you to get some decent money in pre - flop and whittle the field down to 2 - 3 opponents.

If we can get a large amount of our stack over the line preflop then this line is fine. But we are 300BBs deep getting 18 of them in preflop, in the meantime announcing exactly what we have.

If I am the button I would often bloat the pot here if I knew that players were bad. I want to unlock the potential to get their stack, and a bloat to 7 is a nice size. No one is folding for that amount and the mistakes others make OOP are now greater. Depending on UTG I can call the raise with a wide range hoping to out flop him and get paid.

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

ianmc38 wrote:

Thats what i was thinking as well. I couldnt work out the reason for making it 7.

I found a lot of the time it was stuff like 78/910/j10 suited of course, I've a pretty hand lets build a pot type of thing.

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

sikes wrote:

If we can get a large amount of our stack over the line preflop then this line is fine. But we are 300BBs deep getting 18 of them in preflop, in the meantime announcing exactly what we have.

that's pretty much the reason why I never limp re/reaised aa/kk. announcing what I had, deep, oop never particularly appealed to me.

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Ever seen a decent player buy in for 600? Think hard about that one.

jesus, don't be asking me to think FFS...

what the hell is wrong with wanting to cover the table? Doyle recommends it for one...

ianmc38

phantom_lord wrote:

that's pretty much the reason why I never limp re/reaised aa/kk. announcing what I had, deep, oop never particularly appealed to me.

yeah thats the true horrificness of the hand. announcing ive QQ+ oop when really deep. FWIW he actually had around 1300 which he'd won at the other table.

ollyk1

I think this is a fairly clear fold Ian.

I'm not mad about the limp reraise with a good hand and your image preflop and post flop is spewy. His bet seems pretty stong to me and if you call you are playing for your stack. Take your medicine and fold.

My standard assumption about the opponent would be probably an inexperienced player who is having a great night by hitting card. Did you get the impression he was a player familiar with playing live? He's not bluffing as he's loving his profit from the night and this leads me to a fold more easily.

LuckyLloyd

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ianmc38

ollyk1 wrote:

I think this is a fairly clear fold Ian.

I'm not mad about the limp reraise with a good hand and your image preflop and post flop is spewy. His bet seems pretty stong to me and if you call you are playing for your stack. Take your medicine and fold.

My standard assumption about the opponent would be probably an inexperienced player who is having a great night by hitting card. Did you get the impression he was a player familiar with playing live? He's not bluffing as he's loving his profit from the night and this leads me to a fold more easily.

I think he's a friend of Conor Doyles, so I guess he knew what he was doing.

mdwexford

if this is a pot limit game though limp re-raising is much better than making it 7 utg and risking going to a flop 6-7 handed if nobody re-pops

ollyk1

ianmc38 wrote:

I think he's a friend of Conor Doyles, so I guess he knew what he was doing.

Did you know that at the time?:rolleyes:

He doesn't know you. You've anounced your hand and he's raised enough to almost pot commit you. Against most players this seems to me like a play by the villain to stack an overpair.

LuckyLloyd

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ollyk1

mdwexford wrote:

if this is a pot limit game though limp re-raising is much better than making it 7 utg and risking going to a flop 6-7 handed if nobody re-pops

For me this really depends

Do you ever do this with air? Has it been shown?
How deep are you playing?
How many players at the table know (and more importantly react) to how tight Ian plays oop?

ollyk1

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Has the standard of live cash in Dublin improved to such an extent that most unknowns can now be classed as thinking players that are playing more than just their own cards? Cause if that is the case - .

I dunno Lloyd, from my limited expereince it's more likely to be weak tight play or else monster bluffs by tilting players.

A small raise (i.e. much less then pot) tends to mean the overpair is beat (in my limited experience).

Look at the action.

limp reraise from Ian.

Pot bet from original raiser on a dangerous board and then he raises a little bit more then a min bet.

Looks like he's pretty happy with his hand to me.

The only hand I'm giving him that we currently beat is QQ. I think something like JQ will generally call from what I've seen.

sikes

mdwexford wrote:

if this is a pot limit game though limp re-raising is much better than making it 7 utg and risking going to a flop 6-7 handed if nobody re-pops

Why minimise the chance we have of winning a big pot by overraising and pushing everyone out. I would prefer to take the hand 6-7 way in a raised pot than picking up the blinds.

LuckyLloyd

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mdwexford

sikes wrote:

Why minimise the chance we have of winning a big pot by overraising and pushing everyone out. I would prefer to take the hand 6-7 way in a raised pot than picking up the blinds.

i dont see a chance to win a big pot by being oop against 6-7 players with a big pair

there are not many flops we are going to like and we wont have a clue where are in the hand

careca

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I would be shocked if he had flopped a straight or set and raised you on the flop. They don't raise lock hands. They slowplay them to oblivion.

Not sure you would call these lock hands in this spot Lloyd. I would certainly raise with a set on that board and with the smaller str8 (78) would probably do so also.

Hectorjelly

If he is any good he is probably semi bluffing. Also something noone has mentioned, but when behind we always have 4 outs sometimes 6. (except bar KQ)

sikes

mdwexford wrote:

i dont see a chance to win a big pot by being oop against 6-7 players with a big pair

there are not many flops we are going to like and we wont have a clue where are in the hand

A big pair plays fine in a 6 way pot OOP when we play it for set value, and is the most profitable way to play when the game is playing this way. Yeah we might be folding the best hand sometimes, but we take advantage of a game that plays this way when we are in position.

ianmc38

Pretty boring outcome. i folded almost immediately when it came back to me. i felt i was crushed or else he was semi bluffing with a pair/draw combo. i was semi-tilted for about an hour afterwards because i was so disgusted with how I played it. He told me he had a pair of 7s but I obviously didnt believe him.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

If he is any good he is probably semi bluffing. Also something noone has mentioned, but when behind we always have 4 outs sometimes 6. (except bar KQ)

i agree he may be semi bluffing(only if he is good) but that does not make our problem easier.
i think it would be an over all loosing play if we decided to continue with the hand.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

i agree he may be semi bluffing(only if he is good) but that does not make our problem easier.
i think it would be an over all loosing play if we decided to continue with the hand.

Yeah i think so too. Apparently he looked "shocked" when i showed the kings according to someone else at the table...

ianmc38

1 thing meant to ask in the OP is what we'd do if we checked and he made a PSB?

LuckyLloyd

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sikes

ianmc38 wrote:

1 thing meant to ask in the OP is what we'd do if we checked and he made a PSB?

Id fold.

ianmc38

sikes wrote:

Id fold.

yeah thats my thinking as well, but it just feels really weak tight...

sikes

ianmc38 wrote:

yeah thats my thinking as well, but it just feels really weak tight...

i am weak tight! Our hand is well repped at this stage, the board hits a load of hands that he would raise to 7 with, whether he is a good player or not, and theres still 580 or so to go into the middle.

If he is a bad player and only has a pair he could keep betting at you thinking your drawing and we cant call the turn and if he is a good player he knows you will hate that board with your hand and will be unable to continue with a big bet on the turn.

ollyk1

ianmc38 wrote:

Pretty boring outcome. i folded almost immediately when it came back to me. i felt i was crushed or else he was semi bluffing with a pair/draw combo. i was semi-tilted for about an hour afterwards because i was so disgusted with how I played it. He told me he had a pair of 7s but I obviously didnt believe him.

lol I like how this guy plays.

Of course this makes the semibluff seem more plausible. So you showed your hand and then let him speech play you for a bit more tilt effect....nice....he should have also said some good stuff like "I put you on AK" and "I'd never fold Kings there....."

ianmc38

ollyk1 wrote:

lol I like how this guy plays.

Of course this makes the semibluff seem more plausible. So you showed your hand and then let him speech play you for a bit more tilt effect....nice....he should have also said some good stuff like "I put you on AK" and "I'd never fold Kings there....."

Semi-tilt these days is 1 or 2 loose calls peflop for 7 on the button. Lol. No more wheels off stuff!

ollyk1

ianmc38 wrote:

Semi-tilt these days is 1 or 2 loose calls peflop for 7 on the button. Lol. No more wheels off stuff!

If only I'd been there....fully tilting you would be the sort of challenge I'd relish!!:D

"So do you only limp reraise with Aces and kings or do you sometimes do it with AK just to mix it up?"

"I'd say you must have loved that flop when it came down - why else would you bet €85?"

"Have you ever hear of MUTBS?"

ianmc38

ollyk1 wrote:

If only I'd been there....fully tilting you would be the sort of challenge I'd relish!!:D

"So do you only limp reraise with Aces and kings or do you sometimes do it with AK just to mix it up?"

"I'd say you must have loved that flop when it came down - why else would you bet €85?"

"Have you ever hear of MUTBS?"

haha you would as well! you're the dirty, caniving, predatory sort Monsieur Farrell usually has a wee rant about.

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

Id fold.

i wouldnt fold if he made the PSB.
this is where our outs come in .
you do have 4 clean and possibly 6 outs.say 5 outs and i think its good enough then to call .
obviously you are not only counting on your outs but also the possiblity that your ahead now.
if a blank comes on the turn i would then check fold the turn if he pots it .