Why are the Shinners good enough for DUP but not us?

tHE vAGGABOND

This is a genuine question. I'm not a SF supporter, and have never given them any kind of vote [Im in Dublin South, and they have never had any kind of candidate with anything to say run here tbh]

I really dont understand the rush for the main parties to distance themselves from the Shinners?

I think its fair to say that the DUP hate the shinners more than anyone, and yesterday they went into government together. They are talking up real issues, like health and education [and sacking water workers!]...

What makes me laugh is FF taking SF down at every chance. Yet Fianna Fail have 'the republican party' on their posters but then slag off SF for being a republican party :-)

While some of the shinners policies are a bid mad, I could [and have..] argued that most of the parties have mad policies here or there

But I just dont understand why every single party here, in the south, cant wait to get on the anti-SF bandwagon..

While you may not love them, and you may disagree with some/most of their platforms you dont see people rushing out and saying they won’t talk to Joe Higgins and the socialists?

flogen

FF claim it's now a policy problem, and that the two parties are too incompatible at the moment.

If that's true for FF, it's even more the case for FG, but I don't think FG even pretend that's their reason. Like the PDs their supporters aren't keen on SF at all, so they can say it's because they (used to be?) criminals

county

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

This is a genuine question. Im not a SF supporter, and have never given them any kind of vote [Im in Dublin South, and they have never had any kind of canditate with anything to say run here tbh]

I really dont undersand the rush for the main parties to distance themselves from the Shinners?

I think its fair to say that the DUP hate the shinners more than anyone, and yesterday they went into government together. They are talking up real polcies, like health and education [and sacking water workers!]...

What makes me laugh is FF taking SF down at every chance. Yet Fianna Fail have 'the republican party' on their posters but then slag off SF for being a republican party :-)

While some of the shinners policies are a bid mad, I could [and have..] argued that most of the parties have mad policies here or there

But I just dont understand why every single party here, in the south, cant wait to get on the anti-SF bandwaggon..

While you may not love them, and you may disagree with some/most of their platforms you dont see people rushing out and saying they wont talk to Joe Higgins and the socialists?

you must have been away during the 30 year conflict in northern ireland or maybe living under a rock.SF=IRA in a lot of peoples minds and most people(policital parties) dont want to be associated with shall we say reformed terrorists

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

brianthebard

Up there its like home rule was going to be, but with even less power. Down here SF will actually need policies and will need to be able to answer questions on tax. Even if all of SF's past went away you are still left with a party who are between the SWP and the Greens, that's not a good place to be if you want to get into government.

PH01

Along the same lines as daveirl.

Ireland, unlike Northern Ireland, is a sovereign country and the Irish Government is responsible for law and order, foreign and taxation policies to name a few. The Northern Ireland Assembly is more or less a glorified county council with many extra regional powers.
In many people's eyes it's a totally different thing to have Sinn Fein members as part of the Government of Ireland. I can only imagine how the Department of Justice and Foreign Affairs would react if they had a Sinn Fein minister in charge. It would be 'interesting' to say the least.

baztard

FF FG et al, see them as a threat. SF are now a totally credible party and are capable of getting a substantial vote in the election. So some other parties are trying to blacken SF name. The dáil is already crowded with parties, and the dont want another big player in their midst, further reducing their vote.

Senator

In the North the issue is about representing the 2 separate and distinct communities in a sort of cooperative super county council with very circumscribed powers, not a sovereign government. The UUP and SDLP used to do it, fill that role, now it's the DUP and SF. It doesn't really matter about the label on the majority party in each community, it just matters that they're in there together cooperating in apparently running the wee show.

The Republic is a sovereign state, however, with real powers over a wide range of areas. The electorate have a real choice of a range of policies and parties to reflect differing interests and concerns, not simply tribal ones. As a previous poster said, you'd want to reflect very seriously indeed before letting SF get their mitts on Defence or Justice, for instance, given that the PIRA has until quite recently been engaged in a war to pull down the Republic itself (when it had done with the North).

brianthebard

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

tHE vAGGABOND

I understand the points about the different role of the governments..

County - I understand your point. But if they are good enough for the Unionists to into government with, if the unionists believe they have left voilence behind and abide by the rule of law I dont understand why they are not good enough for the rest of us

Baztard - I think you may have hit a nail on the head. While the shinners may only win a couple of more seats this election, their total of 7 or 8 seats will be seats which were FF or FG seats 5 or 10 years ago I assume [and could make them the 4th largest party in the Dail - which would be mad]

Slutmonkey57b

The difference? Northern Ireland deserves whatever they get. Both parties running the assembly up there are rabid hatemongers, which fits in nicely with Norn Irish politics.

baztard

brianthebard wrote:

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

Sure, but mathmatically they could make up a two party coalition, thus reducing other more moderate parties ability to do so.

yomchi

county wrote:

you must have been away during the 30 year conflict in northern ireland or maybe living under a rock.SF=IRA in a lot of peoples minds and most people(policital parties) dont want to be associated with shall we say reformed terrorists

What a load of BS. Is Pat Rabbitte in your head a 'reformed terrorist'? What about Pronsios DeRossa or Tómas MacGiolla?
You are being very selective in your choice of parties there.

With anything up to 10 SF TD's on the cards to be returned to Leinster house it seems that 'SF=IRA' is not on alot of people's minds, or..maybe it is.

Voipjunkie

brianthebard wrote:

They are hardly a big player, not in this election. They have 12 candidates up for election and if they win the 10 seats they want it will be a great success for them, but its not like they'll be calling the shots any time soon.

AFAIK SF have 41 candidates Limerick West and Cork NW are the only places they don't have a candidate
Or did you mean they are only in the running in 12 seats

yomchi

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

The difference? Northern Ireland deserves whatever they get. Both parties running the assembly up there are rabid hatemongers, which fits in nicely with Norn Irish politics.

Completely wide of the mark. Typical of someone who hasn't a breeze what they are talking about. Nice try though.

brianthebard

Voipjunkie wrote:

AFAIK SF have 41 candidates Limerick West and Cork NW are the only places they don't have a candidate
Or did you mean they are only in the running in 12 seats

No I thought they only had 12 candidates, apologies.

yomchi

By the way, policing and justice powers will be devolved to the northern assembly. It was part of the St Andrews talks. So a glorified county council it ain't.

Voipjunkie

Jon wrote:

What a load of BS. Is Pat Rabbitte in your head a 'reformed terrorist'? What about Pronsios DeRossa or Tómas MacGiolla?
You are being very selective in your choice of parties there.

With anything up to 10 SF TD's on the cards to be returned to Leinster house it seems that 'SF=IRA' is not on alot of people's minds, or..maybe it is.

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

yomchi

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

Took the words out of my mouth! If only people knew their facts first..

is_that_so

The northern institutions could not work or run without either SF or the DUP. In the south they are just another party.

Meanwhile we are still waiting for any coherent policies from them. To date they have not produced a manifesto. There is also the hangover, rightly or wrongly of their past, most notably highlighted by their continued pursuit of the release of the McCabe killers. That is an issue where SF and its supporters continue to fail to register the depth of feeling on that and other loosely similar issues.

In the south SF are not the only show in town, there are many other options. There is also the question of how competent their TDS are. I can't say I'd trust or be keen to put any of the current TDs in charge of anything.

Also the North has traditionally split along sectarian lines, Irish politics does not work that way. What's more, the verbal gymnastics they employed in the North particularly in relation to policing,was largely put aside, in order to pursue peace. In the Republic, we won't stand for that- see Bertie for reference.

And finally while the Assembly is a democratic institution , it really is only the start of normal democracy. Remember they don't need to come up with economic policies or many other major policies, as most of that is dictated through London.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

Theres no need to go back 50 years.Thats not a valid comparison as society is different now,a lot different.

To answer the OP's question,lets make no mistake about it-The only reason the DUP went into government with SF is because they had to.

That said you can be sure that if Paisley has bedded down with them,they are clean now.

I'd agree that they could and should go into government in the south on an agreed platform with other parties and that will happen.
Why will it happen? Because Sinn Féin will continue to transform its ideas into something more and more mainstream if they want more growth in their numbers.

is_that_so

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not to mention Clann Na Phoblactha Sean McBride had only a decade earlier been Chief of Staff of the IRA when he went in to Government with FG and Labour and he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and the IRA had not even decommissioned

This is also part of the problem, the propensity to dip back into ancient history. I wonder how many people could even guess what decade of our history you are talking about. If SF is about moving forward why the need to throw in archaic and imo completely irrelevant references?

Dyr

Twould be funny though, imagine dessie ellis or someone as minister for justice when a sizeable segment of the gardai have a job description of giving his party as much grief as they can.

yomchi

Bambi wrote:

Twould be funny though, imagine dessie ellis or someone as minister for justice when a sizeable segment of the gardai have a job description of giving his party as much grief as they can.

tbh the harrassment from Special detective unit has more or less ceased.
As for Dessie for justice minister, I don't think so!

FTA69

Sinn Féin are perfect coalition partners for Fianna Fáil, both have put the national issue to bed as far as they're concerned, and both have vague aspirations toward Irish unity. The economic policies are very slightly different considering SF have stated they won't raise taxes at all, abandoned the 12 to 17.5 percentage for Corp Tax and scrapped the 50% tax band. In short the two could coalesce quite easily if they so wish, this is the aim of the SF leadership, and FF would jump into bed with anyone if it meant retaining power.

FTA69

Jon wrote:

tbh the harrassment from Special detective unit has more or less ceased.

For Sinn Féin it has anyway.

yomchi

To answer the OP's question,lets make no mistake about it-The only reason the DUP went into government with SF is because they had to.

To put meat on the bones. The DUP had to go into govt. with them because SF's mandate was not something that couldbe ignored for much longer. Also the initiatives by the IRA set out the landscape so that DUP had no longer any valid argument to keep saying no.

yomchi

FTA69 wrote:

For Sinn Féin it has anyway.

good point. Other Republicans still endure the constant harrasment of these units

yomchi

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin are perfect coalition partners for Fianna Fáil, both have put the national issue to bed as far as they're concerned, and both have vague aspirations toward Irish unity. The economic policies are very slightly different considering SF have stated they won't raise taxes at all, abandoned the 12 to 17.5 percentage for Corp Tax and scrapped the 50% tax band. In short the two could coalesce quite easily if they so wish, this is the aim of the SF leadership, and FF would jump into bed with anyone if it meant retaining power.

A recent bug bear of mine

Victor Meldrew

To respond to the OP, the DUP are in government with SF/IRA because they have no choice. The UK government want rid of the North as it's a waste of money and resources and in doing so have conceded to all terroist groups, not just SF/IRA. With respect to SF/IRA down here, apart from the Tiochfaidh ar lá brigade, their votes come from disadvantaged areas where the Gardai cant stop thugs and the governments dont care about., so all democratic political parties in Ireland deserve to see SF/IRA emerge with what could be the balance of power after May 24th. :eek: I've no time for McDowell, (and cant wait to see him loose the merc.) but he's right about the provos.

yomchi

With respect to SF/IRA down here, apart from the Tiochfaidh ar lá brigade, their votes come from disadvantaged areas where the Gardai cant stop thugs and the governments dont care about.,

firstly what is SF/IRA? There is no such party.

Secondly what is the Tiocfaidh ar la brigade?

At the last EU election Mary Lou Macdonald polled over 60,000 votes. Hell of a lot of disadvantaged people in Dublin hey? :rolleyes:

There are many differences between SF North and South of the border and many reasons why something acceptable up there might not be so down here.

A terrorist who shoots a policeman north of the border walks out of jail for his politically motivated act.

A terrorist who shoots a policeman south of the border faces life imprisonment for murder.

Context is everything.

Zaphod

Far from any high-minded principles, the reason the main parties say they won't go into coalition with SF is that they're afraid of giving their opponents a stick to beat them with and ultimately of losing votes. It also serves to give the impression that a vote for SF is a 'wasted vote' as they won't be in government.

However, once election day is over, all bets are off. It's not as if there isn't any precedent. It wasn't that long ago that single-party government was a "core value" (remember those?) of FF. And then they turned around and went into bed with their bestest friend ever, Dessie O'Malley.

FG are no different. Back in 1992 they baulked at the idea of going into power with Democratic Left. But when the FF/Lab coalition fell apart, they lost no time in cozying up to the ex-Stickies.

Meanwhile SF are performing pirouettes and quickly shedding any policies that could possibly be an obstacle to coalition.

Just remember the old adage when you hear politicians speaking : Why are these lying b@stards lying to me

The Rooster

Why are the Shinners good enough for DUP but not us?

Because of their Marxist economic beliefs

tHE vAGGABOND

Meanwhile SF are performing pirouettes and quickly shedding any policies that could possibly be an obstacle to coalition.

Yea, Mary Lou WhatsHerBin was on Prime Time last night and I thought she did quite well. The interviewer was beating her up about some of the 'wacky' policies SF have/had and she dodged a few bulliets and did pretty well..

It is a sign of a mature party, if they are 'grown up' enough to realise if policy x or y just does not wash and hence they change them.

Now the question is how the shinners on the ground will feel about those changes - but not knowing any shinners in real life [that I know of] and not trusting media coverage of the subject I will have to wait and see I suppose

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor Meldrew

Jon wrote:

firstly what is SF/IRA? There is no such party.

Secondly what is the Tiocfaidh ar la brigade?

At the last EU election Mary Lou Macdonald polled over 60,000 votes. Hell of a lot of disadvantaged people in Dublin hey? :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein = IRA. Tiochfaidh ar lá = our day will come, the die hard republicans


And, as for mary Lou, 60,000 votes out of all of dublin (pop~ 1million - not sure what the total vote is) is not a huge number. take it as a sign that there are a lot of people who feel that the mainstream (democratic) parties do not represent them.

marco murphy

The Rooster wrote:

Because of their Marxist economic beliefs

And you base this on what?


SF are in government in the North because they were democratically elected as such. I firmly believe the IRA is totally over now. The corp tax increased has been scrapped thankfully.

FTA69

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Yep. Pretty much.

Because of their Marxist economic beliefs

Please explain how Sinn Féin favouring low income and Corp tax has any corralation with Marxism.

yomchi

Sinn Fein = IRA. Tiochfaidh ar lá = our day will come, the die hard republicans

O i see! very intelligent that. Are you saying I'm a member of the IRA then?

Idiot

Victor Meldrew

Jon wrote:

O i see! very intelligent that. Are you saying I'm a member of the IRA then?

Idiot

:eek: Not at all, It's just, historically there has been a bit of a, ahem, overlap in membership especially amongst some of the deputies in the dail and candidates standing in the election, so it's a bit relevent to the current discussion. I'll play nice and just call them SF I'm sure you diddn't really tmean the idiot comment....

yomchi

Victor Meldrew wrote:

:eek: Not at all, It's just, historically there has been a bit of a, ahem, overlap in membership especially amongst some of the deputies in the dail and candidates standing in the election, so it's a bit relevent to the current discussion. I'll play nice and just call them SF I'm sure you diddn't really tmean the idiot comment....

I just think its pathetic to generalise, especially in this day and age. Things have moved on substantially in the last ten years. You are using language of the past tbh and it doesn't help the friendly debate

brianthebard

Poblachtach wrote:

And you base this on what?

Why do SF and their supporters have such a hard time defining what they stand for? its been said countless times that they are a socialist party, yet when I start a thread in politics no one can tell me why they are socialist, they apparently just are. When someone says SF are marxist (pretty synonymous with socialism, even if its not *quite* their specific brand) there are two users who jump on this suggestion aggressively. SF are either socialist or their not, last time I heard they thought they were and if that's the case then their economic policies don't make sense in government with FG and they would have a hard time with FF. If they aren't marxist, then what are they, trotskyist? In the end the distinction makes little difference to the majority of Irish voters.

Dyr

brianthebard wrote:

When someone says SF are marxist (pretty synonymous with socialism, even if its not *quite* their specific brand)

So the current Taoiseach is a marxist now? :rolleyes:

yomchi

brianthebard wrote:

Why do SF and their supporters have such a hard time defining what they stand for? its been said countless times that they are a socialist party, yet when I start a thread in politics no one can tell me why they are socialist, they apparently just are. When someone says SF are marxist (pretty synonymous with socialism, even if its not *quite* their specific brand) there are two users who jump on this suggestion aggressively. SF are either socialist or their not, last time I heard they thought they were and if that's the case then their economic policies don't make sense in government with FG and they would have a hard time with FF. If they aren't marxist, then what are they, trotskyist? In the end the distinction makes little difference to the majority of Irish voters.

TBH even within the party there has been debate as to what exactly the position on Socialism is. Over the past few years we have seen the demise of the word soclialism from the mouths of parties leaders, including that of statements and speeches. However whether you are socialist or not is defined by your fiscal policies and not your speeches!
My own opinion is that the party will lean towards the centre when it comes to fiscal policy so as not to alienate itself and come under criticism for having such policies. A large clump of activists have recently left the party due to the watering down of the parties former socialist policies. SF first and foremost priority is the re-unification of the island. Once that is complete I think there would be more emphasis on socialism, but for now I know Adams wants SF to be a party that everyone can join and support in the push for re-unification, therefore discouraging people from joining due to socialism/marxism is a bad thing.

my opinion!

brianthebard

Jon wrote:

TBH even within the party there has been debate as to what exactly the position on Socialism is. Over the past few years we have seen the demise of the word soclialism from the mouths of parties leaders, including that of statements and speeches. However whether you are socialist or not is defined by your fiscal policies and not your speeches!
My own opinion is that the party will lean towards the centre when it comes to fiscal policy so as not to alienate itself and come under criticism for having such policies. A large clump of activists have recently left the party due to the watering down of the parties former socialist policies. SF first and foremost priority is the re-unification of the island. Once that is complete I think there would be more emphasis on socialism, but for now I know Adams wants SF to be a party that everyone can join and support in the push for re-unification, therefore discouraging people from joining due to socialism/marxism is a bad thing.

my opinion!

Thank you for a straight answer! Sometimes conversation on SF just go round in circles. Does the mean that SF want to move closer to where Labour are now, staying a little more left of centre of them? The one thing that would worry me is that SF might start to look (even more) like a single issue party-that's how I've usually thought of them. Assuming they got the seats to make up a government what would their role be apart from the primary aim of re-unification?

yomchi

brianthebard wrote:

Thank you for a straight answer! Sometimes conversation on SF just go round in circles. Does the mean that SF want to move closer to where Labour are now, staying a little more left of centre of them? The one thing that would worry me is that SF might start to look (even more) like a single issue party-that's how I've usually thought of them. Assuming they got the seats to make up a government what would their role be apart from the primary aim of re-unification?

There are trains of thought within the party that would rather a very radical approach and stay well left of centre. There are others who see the underlying problems with this, especially in the rural areas. For example the rural areas around south Derry and East Tyrone would be traditionally not in favour of socialist or marxist policies due the ownership of land etc and then you have a strong catholic base in these areas also. Areas like this have been the back bone of the struggle for decades so the leadership obviousy doesn't fancy pushing communism down their throats! :eek:

In 1999 SF made a concerted effort to become a non 'one issue' party. After the initial break through on the 99 locals the term 'building political strength' became to mantra, and SF reps set about providing local services through the council. I think since then SF have shed the one issue party status, having said that everything they do plays into their national strategic objectives of acheiving their main goals.

Zambia

Personally I would say the rise of the shinners is that they tend to actively seek out areas that the main Irish parties ignore.

They talk to people the main parties lost interest in a long time ago.

brianthebard

Jon wrote:

There are trains of thought within the party that would rather a very radical approach and stay well left of centre. There are others who see the underlying problems with this, especially in the rural areas. For example the rural areas around south Derry and East Tyrone would be traditionally not in favour of socialist or marxist policies due the ownership of land etc and then you have a strong catholic base in these areas also. Areas like this have been the back bone of the struggle for decades so the leadership obviousy doesn't fancy pushing communism down their throats! :eek:

Yeah those two aspects of the party always seemed at odds to me, which is why I've questioned the socialist aspect of the party before. I guess they have some balancing act ahead of them if they are to continue to grow without losing older members.

In 1999 SF made a concerted effort to become a non 'one issue' party. After the initial break through on the 99 locals the term 'building political strength' became to mantra, and SF reps set about providing local services through the council. I think since then SF have shed the one issue party status, having said that everything they do plays into their national strategic objectives of achieving their main goals.

Just curious now, but do you think they are suited to government here, and what is it they bring to the table that the other parties don't have?

Victor Meldrew

Zambia232 wrote:

Personally I would say the rise of the shinners is that they tend to actively seek out areas that the main Irish parties ignore.

They talk to people the main parties lost interest in a long time ago.

Exactly,

and the poorer the area the more active the party members, I've seen SF leaflet all cars in pubs where there were other parties meetings taking place, no other party (even FF) can do that. as i've said before, SF went out and got what was ignored and convinced non-voters to vote SF. So the blame for the rise in SF's base is down to the mainstream parties.

That said I see it topping out at ~ 10 - 15% max as one should never underestimate the reluctance and opposition to a united ireland in the south (tax bill to rebuild the north, not to mention annoying loyalist nutters). NI will need to have unemployment and tax returns equal to the south before it will happen. ( this is an observation, not a rant, so no need to flame me for saying it...)

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Theres no need to go back 50 years.Thats not a valid comparison as society is different now,a lot different.

.

You could ignore any precedent on the basis of society is different now

The truth is that a Hardline Republican party whose leader had been the Chief of Staff of the IRA and the IRA hadn't gone away went into coalition with FG who just a decade earlier were in bitter conflict with republicans as Dev used the IRA to smash the blueshirts. The divisions between republicans and FG were just as bitter if not more so then yet FG went into Coalition and even chose a Taoiseach other than the party leader because Mulcahy was unacceptable to CnP.

The difference is possibly that FF had been in power for 16 years and the opposition was more desperate for a change than they currently are but fear of republicans amongst FG was if anything stronger given the cold war fear of communism that was prevalent at the time.