"Heeeeeeelp!!" from France

Hyla arborea

My ****ing gormless fellow countrymen have just elected a mixture of Bush, Berlusconi and Thatcher -in worse- accomodating with sects and advocating dangerous ideas about genetics (these are mere examples).
One of his main chacteristics = an impressive propensity to lie. He has lied dozens and dozens of times, claiming things, then maintaining the opposite later...

The most dismaying is that he would probably have been defeated if the media (mostly friends of his. Long live democracy, isn't it?) hadn't been campaigning for him for five years...

Please, send troops in France to arrest him, drop a bomb on the Elysée palace, propose a European amendment to keep hysterical dwarves from being president,... do something!!

Anyway, I'd like to apologize in advance for all the possible crap he's going to do or say as regards foreign policy (sorry, 46% of us did not want that)...

Well, let's see what happens for the parliamentary elections...

A disgusted and worried French girl (about to spend 3 months in Ireland, by the way)


P.S.: how are things presented in Ireland?

brianthebard

Royale didn't win then? Sorry haven't been following the elections lately.

Zambia

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0506/france.html

there you go , no report of him being that bad

El Stuntman

I would have voted for him if I was French...

your reaction seems a bit hysterical tbh

wes

I find peoples opinions on Sarkozy seem to vary between adoration and hatred. Not sure what to make of him.

Tea drinker

Tut tut!
Yeah she would have been a great image for france, yer man looks like a slimeball.

Sure we only elect women as president in Ireland.
Well have to give ye some lessons.
What's the french for democracy?

brianthebard

Its a bit early to know how it will turn out, but this suggests that France has taken a stronger right wing turn.

layke

Aye the GF is from France and she is not happy about it either. This guy is very black and white from what i've been told, there is no in between. She seems to agree in thinking he will be a bad egg.

Hyla arborea

I would have voted for him if I was French...

your reaction seems a bit hysterical tbh

Okay, forget about the lamentation, bomb dropping and all that (second-degree); I'm only trying not to take things too gloomily.
Yet, what I said about him is true and I don't think it is overstated. A majority of people have voted for him because, like you, they are deluding themself about him.
If I had been of age in 2002, I would have voted for Chirac against Le Pen without hesitating even if I disapprove of the former. But in case of a second ballot Sarkozy vs Le Pen last Sunday, I couldn't have said "let's vote for the "less worse"" as they did in 2002, because it is hard to tell which one of both is. You see what I mean?

I find peoples opinions on Sarkozy seem to vary between adoration and hatred. Not sure what to make of him.

Indeed. But you know, I am not used to adorating or hating politicians; the point is: this man's methods and opinion are worrying.

Hyla arborea

To Zambia 232 and brianthebard : all right, thanks for the links.

Sure we only elect women as president in Ireland.
Well have to give ye some lessons.
What's the french for democracy?

Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

wes

Hyla arborea wrote:

Indeed. But you know, I am not used to adorating or hating politicians; the point is: this man's methods and opinion are worrying.

Well from what I have read he has said some worrying things, but then I have that option as I don't live in France. Probably a good thing since I have an Arab first name.

brianthebard

Hyla arborea wrote:

To Zambia 232 and brianthebard : all right, thanks for the links.


Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

S'cool, yo can always stay with me if France turns bad:D

Sand

"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

Id agree, France seems to be under mob rule. Electoral mandates appear to be meaningless when put to the test against organised street protests. I wouldnt worry too much about Sarkozy given that he actually has yet to face the 46% and their mob on the streets. His 54% vote wont mean much then.

luckylucky

Don't know much about Sarkozy, I tend to dislike politicians with too extreme views on anything, so I proably wouldn't like him by the sound of things. Still the Americans voted for Bush twice, Putin is largely regarded as a hero in Russia by the common man anyway, Berlusconi in Italy.... and going back to history Hitler in Germany(also elected). Seems like there is a large proportion of complete morons in every society that ends up electing these types of individuals, so well at least the 54% in France are not unique in that regard.

extragon

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

mike65

Sarko is what that deluded country needs - a kick up the arse. 35 hour week (as standard maximum ) is for the for birds.

BTW if you don't like Nasty Nics ideas what the hell are you doing here - we are capialist pig- dogs to a man!

Mike.

lostexpectation

extragon wrote:

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

sarko wants to keep allow short term cheap workers but give no right so health care for it, he the one that wants globalisation.

Chakar

lostexpectation wrote:

sarko wants to keep allow short term cheap workers but give no right so health care for it, he the one that wants globalisation.

In my opinion that is good. France desperately needs Sarkozy to follow through with his reforms and from what I've heard and read about him so far I'm confident he will do so. Hopefully Newsweek or the Economist will have a story about the 23rd President of France.

SeanW

Hyla arborea wrote:

Cool (give us lessons before 2012...).

In Ireland, the presidents powers are mostly symbolic, like a glorified ambassador. The vast bulk of real power lies with the legislature (Dáil Eireann) and the courts.

However, the President does have some constitutional authority, which the government found out to its dismay a year or two ago, when Minister for Health Mary Harney introduced legislation retroactively legalising nursing home charges, Ms. McAleese quickly sent said legislation to the Supreme Court because she felt it was repugnant to the Constituion. The Supreme Court agreed.

As for France, although I don't know too much about it, I was rooting for Francis Bayrou. It would have been best, I thought, if a centrist could start a process of reform without pissing off so many people.

Sand wrote:

I wouldnt worry too much about Sarkozy given that he actually has yet to face the 46% and their mob on the streets.

You need to stop watching Fox News.

Hyla arborea

I like Sarko. I don't think he's a racist; he just spoke his mind about thugs coming to town to have riots and break everything up. And his policies have a far better chance of bringing jobs to the banlieues than any of the socialist plans.
Sego's plans: spend spend spend, run out of money, heeeeeeelp!

As for Europe, he has been painted, wishfully, as a "Eurosceptic" by some of the UK media, but this is all wrong. He has interesting ideas about furthering European integration, for example - realizing that this is only possible by strengthening the EU's external borders. ( He spoke on election night against the EU being a Trojan horse for uncontrolled globalization ). Also, last year he floated the idea of a new constitutional convention, for after the the mini-treaty, and he's mentioned the idea of having elected EU commissioners.
Oh....and it was he who abolished the permis de sejour for EU citizen resident in France, a few years ago.

I don't think either, he only develops racists ideas out of opportunism (which doesn't prevent him from being close to the far-right in some respects).
Ha ha, some people still believe that ultra-liberalism creates decent jobs? Come on...
Sure, I wouldn't trust S. Royal as regards such matters as economy, but she would have worked with Dominique Strauss-Khan, considered -even by many of his opponents- as one of the best economists in the current political scene.
To go back to Sarkozy: as I said, he is a thorough opportunist. If something he said hasn't pleased a strategic part of his electorate, he will manage to say the opposite. After raking through the far-right voters, he showed up declaring himself Jean Jaurès's and Léon Blum's heir, can you believe it? He was also supposed to represent the Gaullistes, although De Gaulle would have hated his policy (I even wonder if he wouldn't have voted for Royal)...

Sarko is what that deluded country needs - a kick up the arse. 35 hour week (as standard maximum ) is for the for birds.

BTW if you don't like Nasty Nics ideas what the hell are you doing here - we are capialist pig- dogs to a man!

Mike.

You cannot model a country on another with a totally different profile.
... anyway, be careful with foreign delicate points... you wouldn't like a Froggy to lecture you about the respective roles of Church and State, abortion and that kind of things, would you?
("dogs to a man"?)

Hyla arborea

In my opinion that is good. France desperately needs Sarkozy to follow through with his reforms and from what I've heard and read about him so far I'm confident he will do so.

So you must have heard and read the same stuff as the people who voted for him...

In Ireland, the presidents powers are mostly symbolic, like a glorified ambassador. The vast bulk of real power lies with the legislature (Dáil Eireann) and the courts.

However, the President does have some constitutional authority, which the government found out to its dismay a year or two ago, when Minister for Health Mary Harney introduced legislation retroactively legalising nursing home charges, Ms. McAleese quickly sent said legislation to the Supreme Court because she felt it was repugnant to the Constituion. The Supreme Court agreed.

As for France, although I don't know too much about it, I was rooting for Francis Bayrou. It would have been best, I thought, if a centrist could start a process of reform without pissing off so many people.

Okay, thanks for the info; it's interesting.
About François Bayrou: actually, he's right-winged. His "I reunite everyone" thing is a big strategic stunt (still, I wish he had been elected...).

Manic Moran

"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).

Colour me confused here, but if the other guy got more votes than your guy, and is declared winnier, isn't that democracy?

NTM

mike65

Hyla arborea wrote:

You cannot model a country on another with a totally different profile.
... anyway, be careful with foreign delicate points... you wouldn't like a Froggy to lecture you about the respective roles of Church and State, abortion and that kind of things, would you?
("dogs to a man"?)

"Capitalist Pig-Dogs" my jokey use of an abusive term as favoured by Commies! "to a man" that is to say we are all capitalists in this country these days.

As for Church and State, France has it exactly right, this country is in a muddle, state education which is built on Catholic resources and ideology ditto the health system to some degree. Completely wrong.

Read this and weep

Mike.

brianthebard

Speak for yourself Mike, we're not all capitalists :rolleyes:

Judt

I would think a country that has had the socialists introducing such measures as the 35 hour week in an attempt to get more people jobs (math that adds up on the back of an expensive napkin, I'm sure) and which has given you 22% unemployment among the 20somethings leaving college would see the need for a Thatcherite kick up the economic arse.

Face it, if you want to turn your economy around and make France a country that can hit at the level it should be hitting at, you can't have more social welfare and less taxes and working hours. Doesn't work that way. You gotta earn it before you can spend it. The French tendency to strike and then riot at the first sign of a hard days work (crass over simplification) has got you to where you are.

Smell the coffee. The Germans recognized the need for these hard measures, got Merkel and she's one of the most popular - and successful - German leaders since reunification.

The hard pills may not win you many friends in the short run, but if everyone has a good chance of getting a job in five years time I can see Sarko getting his second term. Of course he has big battles to win - or even decide to fight. France either takes this opportunity, or else it gets even poorer.

brianthebard

Does the German example work? There's still about 5million unemployed there. When the socialists introduced the 35 hour week unemployment dropped steadily for several years but I agree its time to rethink that system, its not working for them any more.

Hyla arborea

Quote:
"Démocratie" is no longer existing in France (I have to put a smiley, or people will call me a hysterical again...).


Colour me confused here, but if the other guy got more votes than your guy, and is declared winnier, isn't that democracy?

NTM

Obviously, a smiley is not enough...

(What is "NTM" for? In French it means "f*** your mother" (sorry))

I would think a country that has had the socialists introducing such measures as the 35 hour week in an attempt to get more people jobs (math that adds up on the back of an expensive napkin, I'm sure) and which has given you 22% unemployment among the 20somethings leaving college would see the need for a Thatcherite kick up the economic arse.

Face it, if you want to turn your economy around and make France a country that can hit at the level it should be hitting at, you can't have more social welfare and less taxes and working hours. Doesn't work that way. You gotta earn it before you can spend it. The French tendency to strike and then riot at the first sign of a hard days work (crass over simplification) has got you to where you are.

Smell the coffee. The Germans recognized the need for these hard measures, got Merkel and she's one of the most popular - and successful - German leaders since reunification.

The hard pills may not win you many friends in the short run, but if everyone has a good chance of getting a job in five years time I can see Sarko getting his second term. Of course he has big battles to win - or even decide to fight. France either takes this opportunity, or else it gets even poorer.

It is not that simple, you have to master a country's history, thinking and context before asserting such theories.

As respects the 35h, they've been much criticized but the UMP never withdrew it. Sarkozy and his friend Breton were in position to do so.
Besides, do you know when unemployment reached its lowest rate during the last few decades? Under Jospin's guv (precisely the guy who established the 35h). That said, as Brian pointed out, the 35h have to be remodel (though not in a "Thatcherite" way): you cannot work the same number of hour sitting at an office or doing a health-wrecking work.

? I didn't know that France was supposed to hit at a special level. Who cares if we don't have have the biggest economic growth?

As for Germany: thanks, Brian; moreover I'm not sure Merkel is that popular.

Ah... something important: under the UMP, unemployment figures have been decreasing. Yet, unemployment itself hasn't : the way of calculating unemployment rate has been altered so as to lower it. For example, several people I know have been sacked from the ANPE (where you registrer to be counted as unemployed) under various pretexts, while they're really willing to find a job (implied : they were not parasites registered merely to get the RMI (insertion minimum income)).

Hyla arborea

"Capitalist Pig-Dogs" my jokey use of an abusive term as favoured by Commies! "to a man" that is to say we are all capitalists in this country these days.

As for Church and State, France has it exactly right, this country is in a muddle, state education which is built on Catholic resources and ideology ditto the health system to some degree. Completely wrong.

Read this and weep

Mike.

Ah... okay thanks (I hadn't noticed that one)

Judt

It is not that simple, you have to master a country's history, thinking and context before asserting such theories.

Yes, it is that simple. You have to earn €10 before you can buy a €9.99 item, and you have to go into debt if you earn €10 and spend €15, and there's only so much debt you can accrue before you start spending all of your €10 on the interest of that loan, etc etc. Economic theory is quite simple at the end of the day: You have to earn it before you can spend it.

? I didn't know that France was supposed to hit at a special level. Who cares if we don't have have the biggest economic growth?

Not what I meant. I meant that 22% unemployment among the young and 9% overall is woeful for a western economy.

France has had it too cushy for too long. It's a mind boggling system to even the rest of Europe. You have to put in hard work and you have to earn your money and put up with the fact that the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need if you only earn 80% of the wage you need to live the lifestyle you want.

Government interference in business, pushed by people who want iron tight job security and so on, doesn't work. Ultimately there's less jobs for people to be secure in, as you know, because nobody wants to do business in France.

In Ireland an employer can drop you like a light compared to France, yet we have practically full employment. Odd, no?

ambro25

Hé bien je suis bien content que Sarko ait gagné, même si je ne peux pas le sentir. Cependant, au contraire de ton post précédent, pour moi Sarko c'était le moins pire des deux, un vote entièrement par défaut plutôt que par conviction: à choisir entre un homme avec de la volonté à défaut de charisme, et une femme sans convictions ni programme, y avait pas photo.

Judt a raison sur toute la ligne, au fait. Ca fait au moins 10 ans que je prêche à l'identique.

Signé ambro25, heureux expatrié économique depuis 1994, et c'est pas demain la veille que je rentre

TRNSL for my fellow Boardsies on The Island

Well, I'm happy he won, even if I can't stand the guy. However, unlike your earlier post, for me was the best of a bad bunch, and my vote was entirely by default rather than by conviction: choosing between a man with a will but no charisma and a woman with no convictions nor program, it wasn't a photo finish.

Judt is entirely correct about it all, btw. I've only been saying it for the last 10 years at least myself.

Signed ambro25, happy economic expatriate since 1994, and I ain't going back anytime soon.

EDIT...and as a now-fully anglo-irishized baby-eating capitalist, of course I was going to vote for the guy who's promised to abolish inheritance tax

Hyla arborea

You have to earn €10 before you can buy a €9.99 item, and you have to go into debt if you earn €10 and spend €15, and there's only so much debt you can accrue before you start spending all of your €10 on the interest of that loan, etc etc. Economic theory is quite simple at the end of the day: You have to earn it before you can spend it.

Thank you for that breathtaking explaination, I wouldn't have guessed it... It's all about the means, not the end.

As for the rest, clarifications: 1-Who says everyone has to earn 20% more? Today's logic wants people to earn more in order to buy the latest flat-screened DVD player, a 4x4, or whatever. Lots of families live like dogs and never leave their lousy towns while each one of their children has his own computer. The whole consumption and liberalism logic has to be called into question.

2- Still, some people in really precarious situation do need to earn more, and indeed, "the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need". But did I say it was? What are employers for? There is money in France; its division only wants a stricter supervision.

3-Thereupon, don't tell me that fewer jobs are created if you impose constraints on employers : PMEs (small and medium businesses) cope fairly well with that. What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that nothing is done to prevent big profit-making companies to fire 100 000 people overnight. Government interference would be welcome there.

4-"nobody wants to do business in France" ?? I mustn't live in the country you're talking about, because it's not what I witness.

5- France is starting to change the way you consider suitable, and it's not a success : the CNE (=enabling bosses to hire and fire more easily) involves that people cannot find flats, subscribe to loans,... because landlords, banks,... don't regard them as having a reliable enough source of income. Full employment cannot be lauded if it amounts to the same problem as a high unemployment : depriving people of a decent life.

6- The "work more to earn more" advocated by Sarkozy is phoney : if you tell a factory or supermarket employee -with a health-poisoning job, or working definitely more than 35h a week- to work more to earn more, they'll make a strange face. On the other hand, if you show up in front of your boss, like "hello, I'd like to work more to earn more", you'll be laughed in your face. Not to mention the numerous part-time workers who'd like to earn more but are refused a full-time job.

(pfff... sorry for the possible far-fetched sentences, it's hard to put it in English...)

Hyla arborea

Well, I'm happy he won, even if I can't stand the guy. However, unlike your earlier post, for me was the best of a bad bunch, and my vote was entirely by default rather than by conviction: choosing between a man with a will but no charisma and a woman with no convictions nor program, it wasn't a photo finish.

I still prefer the 0,5 levelled program to the -25 one.
(by the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen had a program too, if you go this way)

Hyla arborea

Well, I'm happy he won, even if I can't stand the guy. However, unlike your earlier post, for me was the best of a bad bunch, and my vote was entirely by default rather than by conviction: choosing between a man with a will but no charisma and a woman with no convictions nor program, it wasn't a photo finish.

I still prefer the 0,5 levelled program to the -25 one.
(by the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen had a program too, if you go this way)

Hyla arborea

Oups...

Manic Moran

(What is "NTM" for? In French it means "f*** your mother" (sorry))

It does? Excellent! I must start using it more often on French boards...

Actually, they're my initials. I just have a habit of signing off on posts and emails. My unique (Well, not so unique, others do it too) brand of Netiquette.

NTM

brianthebard

Judt wrote:

Not what I meant. I meant that 22% unemployment among the young and 9% overall is woeful for a western economy.

http://www.destatis.de/indicators/e/arb210ae.htm

German unemployment is at the same level.

In Ireland an employer can drop you like a light compared to France, yet we have practically full employment. Odd, no?

Irish employment levels cannot be put down solely to the ability to fire someone. I'm not sure if you really understand what you are talking about.

Hyla arborea

It does? Excellent! I must start using it more often on French boards...

Actually, they're my initials. I just have a habit of signing off on posts and emails. My unique (Well, not so unique, others do it too) brand of Netiquette.

NTM

Actually, if you just write someone "ntm" in a sentence, you're not sure to be understood. Still, in France you can see graffiti "NTM" everywhere and then everyone knows what it means...
It's the name of a rap band, originally (in general rap is not my kind of music, but I liked what they did). Maybe you've heard of Joey Starr.



I love you, Brian .

ambro25

Hyla arborea wrote:

I still prefer the 0,5 levelled program to the -25 one.
(by the way, Jean-Marie Le Pen had a program too, if you go this way)

I don't get your maths - explain please.

JM LePen stands for a particular type of (populist) ideology and had a program, the same he had the time before that, with which I do not agree

(Put it this way: my passport may say I'm French, but my family name sure as hell doesn't )

Sego didn't have any program nor ideas of her own, only enough soundbites, truisms and panderings to all sides of the electing spectrum, to try and get herself elected. Thankfully, the majority of electors apparently saw through the spin doctors (7 years of Blairism for France? I don't think so!).

Sarko doesn't really have a program either, but he has demonstrated the resolve to do the 'right' thing and that is quite a program of itself - because there's a sh1tload that needs sorting out.

Don't get me wrong: as I posted earlier, I'm not sold on the guy and as a matter of fact, I'm rather looking forward to see just how he intends to tackle Unions and the Civil Service (about time them f*ckers were put to work!).

As someone posted somewhere on the Web recently, after the TV debate on the 2nd, "one demonstrated she wanted to be elected, the other demonstrated he wanted to govern a country"

Now, about that earlier post...

Hyla arborea wrote:

1-Who says everyone has to earn 20% more? Today's logic wants people to earn more in order to buy the latest flat-screened DVD player, a 4x4, or whatever. Lots of families live like dogs and never leave their lousy towns while each one of their children has his own computer. The whole consumption and liberalism logic has to be called into question.

Nothing wrong with consumption and liberalism anywhere else in the world, so why should France have a problem? More like a chip on the shoulder the size of an aircraft carrier

I'll tell you who 'says everyone has to earn 20% more' : anybody who realises that you can't have your cake an eating it, or who understands the basic principle of the communicating vases (which extends to finance just the same as it applies to liquids ).

Hyla arborea wrote:

2- Still, some people in really precarious situation do need to earn more, and indeed, "the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need". But did I say it was? What are employers for? There is money in France; its division only wants a stricter supervision.

France has one the highest minimum wage (SMIC - know all about it, Darlin') in the world, in addition to probably the highest and longest unemployment benefit in the world (ASSEDIC - know all about it, Darlin') .

How much f*cking more do you want? :mad:

Take a cow, start milking it: have you ever seen one with an infinite supply of milk? You got to let it eat some grass every now and then for the milk to top up.

Why-oh-why do you think the problem of the deserting 'Rich' and 'Brains' is so exacerbated in France? Because there is always a limit at which people who create wealth decide "enough is enough, they've had their tons of flesh, at the rate the're going I'll not even have the bones left!"

So they f*ck off, grow fat where they're allowed to (UK, IE, US, AU etc. - where opportunities exist for people not afraid of doing a hard day's graft) and I for one applaud them.

Hyla arborea wrote:

3-Thereupon, don't tell me that fewer jobs are created if you impose constraints on employers : PMEs (small and medium businesses) cope fairly well with that. What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that nothing is done to prevent big profit-making companies to fire 100 000 people overnight. Government interference would be welcome there.

Jaysus! Have you any idea what the rate of startup failure is in France, compared to Ireland or the UK?

What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that draconian pro-employee employment laws make any decision to 'employ' (as in a 'CDI' - that's a bog-standard work contract to you & me guys) a lifelong commitment for the employer, even if the employee never works an honest day in his or her life after getting the CDI.

What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that for any €1k you pay an employee (gross pay, employees in France pay income tax themselves after getting paid), you've got to pay another €1k to the government in contributions. So that employee had better be generating €2k and a fair bit even if, as a business, you just want to break even: then the employee come crying that you'not paying him his true worth to the business (so he can afford a 4x4 and a Bravia LCD). How do you f*cking win? You can't - period.

Hyla arborea wrote:

4-"nobody wants to do business in France" ?? I mustn't live in the country you're talking about, because it's not what I witness.

Get your head out of the sand, Hyla, you'll be swallowing pebbles next. I've lost track of all the headlines over the last 5 years about all of the foreign companies getting out of France or just plain cancelling planed investments - when it wasn't French companies themselves relocating production or more.

Hyla arborea wrote:

5- France is starting to change the way you consider suitable, and it's not a success : the CNE (=enabling bosses to hire and fire more easily) involves that people cannot find flats, subscribe to loans,... because landlords, banks,... don't regard them as having a reliable enough source of income. Full employment cannot be lauded if it amounts to the same problem as a high unemployment : depriving people of a decent life.

Banks will change. Hell, just about only civil servants meet French banks' criteria of stability these days - they'll adapt, or they'll get bought out by foreign banks. See me cry over it, LOL!

Hyla arborea wrote:

6- The "work more to earn more" advocated by Sarkozy is phoney : if you tell a factory or supermarket employee -with a health-poisoning job, or working definitely more than 35h a week- to work more to earn more, they'll make a strange face. On the other hand, if you show up in front of your boss, like "hello, I'd like to work more to earn more", you'll be laughed in your face. Not to mention the numerous part-time workers who'd like to earn more but are refused a full-time job.

Your work experience must be extensive to be that assertive. My dad runs an engineering-based PME in France. In fact, over the past 30 years or so, he's always been running an enginerring-based PME or another - there's always been one constant: the guy who works more, gets more. There's always been another constant: there's not a whole lot of people who are ready to work more to get more, but there's a vast majority who's after working less and getting just as much or more for it.

But I will tell you what will happen, what has not been addressed by anyone in this campaign, what I wanted to see addressed in this campaign : the brewing war between civil service and private sector in France. Because in terms of employment and quality of life, as things stand currently, talk about the have's and have not's (respectively)!

mike65

ambro25, frankly I'm shocked. You seem to sensible to be French!

Mike.

ambro25

Why, thanks Mike

See, I'm not a whole 100% French DNA-wise, so this may be that and whatnot - I put it down to the portion of 'Italian peasantry' genes and how I was raised, by my Dad (a €1 is worth a €1 and it takes that much work to earn it) and by Jesuits (rule 1 - do the work, rule 2 - do the f*cking work).

Judt

As for the rest, clarifications: 1-Who says everyone has to earn 20% more? Today's logic wants people to earn more in order to buy the latest flat-screened DVD player, a 4x4, or whatever. Lots of families live like dogs and never leave their lousy towns while each one of their children has his own computer. The whole consumption and liberalism logic has to be called into question.

Fine, you do that. In the meantime, you've got a lot of people without jobs who can't afford to feed themselves without the state... AKA the tax money of those with jobs.

2- Still, some people in really precarious situation do need to earn more, and indeed, "the government is not there to fill in the 20% of your income you need". But did I say it was? What are employers for? There is money in France; its division only wants a stricter supervision.

You see, that's called communism. Few countries tried it. They sent us a postcard, mentioned something about it not working.

3-Thereupon, don't tell me that fewer jobs are created if you impose constraints on employers : PMEs (small and medium businesses) cope fairly well with that. What entails the most unemployment is precisely the fact that nothing is done to prevent big profit-making companies to fire 100 000 people overnight. Government interference would be welcome there.

Really? Because I see 9% unemployment in France. When was the last time a business in Ireland went and fired an entire workforce, and these people then couldn't find another job within 6 months to a year? Not as many cases as in France, I daresay... You have to be able to lose staff as and when required for a business to survive - particularly poor performing staff, or if your business just needs to change. By not allowing business flexibility to work, then the businesses simply won't create any jobs in your country. The proof is in the 22% of the pudding for young, untried workers. If you're just out of college, untried and I couldn't fire you after hiring you, I just wouldn't hire you.

4-"nobody wants to do business in France" ?? I mustn't live in the country you're talking about, because it's not what I witness.

Hey, you're the guys in the economic dog house. I'm saying that if I had my choice of any European country to set up a business in, France would be far, far down my list.

5- France is starting to change the way you consider suitable, and it's not a success : the CNE (=enabling bosses to hire and fire more easily) involves that people cannot find flats, subscribe to loans,... because landlords, banks,... don't regard them as having a reliable enough source of income. Full employment cannot be lauded if it amounts to the same problem as a high unemployment : depriving people of a decent life.

Funny, people in the UK and Ireland can find jobs, and buy houses. Again, look at our more liberalised economies. Just because it's easier to get fired, for example, doesn't mean that you will. Or can find a new job.

6- The "work more to earn more" advocated by Sarkozy is phoney : if you tell a factory or supermarket employee -with a health-poisoning job, or working definitely more than 35h a week- to work more to earn more, they'll make a strange face. On the other hand, if you show up in front of your boss, like "hello, I'd like to work more to earn more", you'll be laughed in your face. Not to mention the numerous part-time workers who'd like to earn more but are refused a full-time job.

Again, you need a healthier economy for these jobs to exist. I know plenty of people, mothers and so on, on 35 hour, 20 hour, 15 hour weeks in professional jobs. But those jobs have to exist in the country first, and France is not an economy geared towards creating a business, which creates wealth, which creates jobs, which creates more wealth and more jobs and more social security all round.

If you have a lot of businesses, these businesses pay tax. They also create jobs, which allows people to pay tax and also for their own lives. Then you create more tax from consumer spending. And because people have more money in their own pockets, new businesses are set up. Rinse, repeat. It's a system that works well whilst still allowing you to keep the social welfare state, as in Ireland.

German unemployment is at the same level.

Germany has many of the same problems. But unemployment is down and they're making the changes. It doesn't happen overnight.

Irish employment levels cannot be put down solely to the ability to fire someone. I'm not sure if you really understand what you are talking about.

No, but this is one of the key issues in France, one of many. I'm a successful businessperson. I know what it takes to run a successful business. I also work with French businesses, and German ones, and American ones, so I have a good grasp of the entire spectrum.

dragonkin

Well we don't them to change too soon or else we'll stop getting the pick of the crop coming over here!

I studied in France for a year they used to give me a grant towards my accommodation (€150 pm) no means test or anything, crazy.
Not that I was complaining though

brianthebard

German problems aren't fixed overnight, but France's should be? When the 35 hour week was introduced it cut unemployment massively. Now its not working, so the government should rethink it. But it reject it outright is awfully narrowminded. And as for finding jobs in Ireland, well I'm finding it quite difficult, as are some friends. In case you hadn't noticed our market was growing for several years and was able to provide jobs, but when it starts to slow down we're going to be faced with a prospect not unlike France. Or hadn't you realised?

The fact is its not just a case of business in equals jobs out. One of Germany's main problems is a lack of people qualified for the jobs that are available. Also, regards businesses not wanting to set up in France, I'd like to know where you got that idea. this article goes some way to show that this is not the case. Close to 300,000 businesses were set up in France in the last year.

Perhaps you are an experienced businessman, I don't know and I don't care, but you need to have a rethink about what exactly contributes to unemployment levels, like those experienced in the majority of the Euro zone, the average being around 7%.

ambro25

brianthebard wrote:

German problems aren't fixed overnight, but France's should be?

I don't think that is what was meant, and I don't believe for a second that France's problems will be fixed overnight either - if anything, it's probably going to take much longer than that. I understand a goodly portion of Germany's problems stem from the Reunification and the herculean effort of reintegrating 20% or 30% more population which had precious little skills suited to a western economy, not to say anything of the infrastructure. France's 'East Germany' is constituted by it's encyclopaedy-sized tax and employment laws, not to say anything of the cost burden that the civil service (as a whole, incl. healthcare) represents, relative to to the country's take-home pay. The problem, is that most of this encyclopaedy-sized tax and employment laws is now less the result of decades of social barter (a good thing) and much more the result of decades of corporatist lobbying (a bad thing - and corporatist here is not limited to private companies, but on the contrary means every single branch of nationalised industries).

Case in point, the SNCF (National Railway Company), wherein train drivers are still paid a 'coal allowance' (granted in early 30s on the back of the hardship of filling loco stoves) in additional time off and €s. Why wasn't this killed when all coal-fired locos were taken out of service? Because you'd have no end of strikes, and it was an acquired advantage, so you can't take it away. A train driver on a professional's salary (and then some when you factor in early retirement and package to go with it)? In France, you betcha!
France is absolutely riddled with these little costs here there and everywhere, in every walk of (government-salarie'd) way.

brianthebard wrote:

When the 35 hour week was introduced it cut unemployment massively.

I wouldn't quite call it 'massively'. It had a short-term effect, principally caused by employers scrambling to maintain productivity in the face of the reduced production time (=produce same in less time). So many were brought in on temporary contracts, whilst companies were figuring out how to increase productivity of the permanent employees. Once they figured it out, the contracts weren't renewed. It ain't rocket science, and was entirely predictable. But I guess it made good headlines and soundbites at the time.

brianthebard wrote:

The fact is its not just a case of business in equals jobs out.(etc.)

Yes, it is. It's simple math. Less businesses = less jobs, More businesses = more jobs. Really. I hear your argument about finding suitable candidates for job specifications, but ponder this: how come France has the exact same problem in reverse? Too many overqualified applicants for any job going?

Don't get me wrong, France's education system really is the bee's knees (I should know ), but it's elitist in the extreme, has been for decades now, and does not value any non-University -type education (e.g. 'physical' workforce). So now you have 4 applicants out of 5 for a job operating a 5-axes CNC lathe who have an Engineering Degree, and a couple of them probably have a Masters to boot (this one based on a true story, repeated ad nauseam for the last 5 years). And short of a PhD, good luck landing that postman/postwoman job.

Opinion poll at 5pm when students stream out of Uni - Typical question: what is your choice of career? Typical Reply: I want to be a civil servant.

What does that tell you about the situation there?

Eventually, someone notices there's a problem, nay hundreds: the working population is ageing, the country is haemorraging just about all of the super-efficient output of that sterling education system, all of that governement-paid workforce wants pay rises and less working hours, there's more and more of a gap between "fresh tax money" injected into the system (that tax money of private employees, which originally came from 'real' wealth generated by private companies) and "recycled tax money" in circulation in the system (that tax of civil servants, who get paid by the GVT then pay back a portion as income tax, and round and round we go), etc, etc.

[cynical rant]Where to get any additional tax, I ask ye?

Oh, I know... Let's tax any assets in France belonging to all those expatriates differently! Tell you what, income tax, wealth tax, this and that and the other tax, if they are applicable, and whilst there are thresholds for people domiciled in France, let's abolish thresholds for expatriates and make them pay full wack on the first cent!

Oh, yeah - it won't be popular, so let's make sure we vote it on a 31st December when noone's looking, with effect from 1st January of course.[/cynical rant]

How do you like them apples? I for one promptly put a few students out on the street and sold the lot, then had the immense satisfaction to tell (in person) my Assembly Representative and French tax inspector to go f*ck themselves sideways with a pointy stick, until it would tickle their tonsils.

Hyla arborea

I don't get your maths - explain please.
Sego didn't have any program nor ideas of her own, only enough soundbites, truisms and panderings to all sides of the electing spectrum, to try and get herself elected. Thankfully, the majority of electors apparently saw through the spin doctors (7 years of Blairism for France? I don't think so!).

Hem... it's the maths of someone who (unlike you) has never lived in an English-speaking country, which implies it sometimes gets a little tiring when you're trying to express what you think - hence the use of the first image coming up in mind.
Actually it's hard to know accurately what Royal's presidency would have been like - not great, probably ; she wouldn't have left a tremendous mark - whereas Sarkozy is in keeping with the UMP's trends : he is what the country already knows, in worse - that's what the French haven't understood. He 's succeeded in giving a feeling of novelty while he'll simply go further with his predecessors' policy, deepening the problems it posed instead of solving them.
Indeed, Blairism would have sucked, but I don't think 5 (and not 7...) years of Thatcherism are better.
Is Royal trying to rake in the whole electing spectrum? That's one of Sarkozy's most blatant particularities.

Nothing wrong with consumption and liberalism anywhere else in the world

Really? We mustn't be living in the same world... Do you know how i-pods are made? (just as an example)

France has one the highest minimum wage (SMIC - know all about it, Darlin') in the world, in addition to probably the highest and longest unemployment benefit in the world (ASSEDIC - know all about it, Darlin') .

How much f*cking more do you want?

It's not about asking for a higher unemployment benefit - which wouldn't help the economic situation : people have to keep their jobs, and you won't have endless amounts of jobs as long as profit-making companies keep firing thousands of people when it suits them.

Why-oh-why do you think the problem of the deserting 'Rich' and 'Brains' is so exacerbated in France? Because there is always a limit at which people who create wealth decide "enough is enough, they've had their tons of flesh, at the rate the're going I'll not even have the bones left!"

?? The disertings of Rich and Brains are two opposite problems: the latter have been faced with an unfavourable UMP policy whereas the former consider this policy hasn't been pushed far enough.

a lifelong commitment for the employer, even if the employee never works an honest day in his or her life after getting the CDI.

You're obviously talking through the employers' point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?

then the employee come crying that you'not paying him his true worth to the business (so he can afford a 4x4 and a Bravia LCD). How do you f*cking win? You can't - period

Sure, employees are a great threat for their bosses... Come on, they do not decide anything - they do what they're told and shut up.

I've lost track of all the headlines over the last 5 years about all of the foreign companies getting out of France or just plain cancelling planed investments - when it wasn't French companies themselves relocating production or more.

By hearing you, it sounds as if they were forced to live. They just just do in order to make more profit. Capitalism works on the same exponential pattern as some mental illnesses such as anorexia or bulimia.

Your work experience must be extensive to be that assertive. My dad runs an engineering-based PME in France. In fact, over the past 30 years or so, he's always been running an enginerring-based PME or another - there's always been one constant: the guy who works more, gets more. There's always been another constant: there's not a whole lot of people who are ready to work more to get more, but there's a vast majority who's after working less and getting just as much or more for it.

But I will tell you what will happen, what has not been addressed by anyone in this campaign, what I wanted to see addressed in this campaign : the brewing war between civil service and private sector in France. Because in terms of employment and quality of life, as things stand currently, talk about the have's and have not's (respectively)!

My work experience isn't that extensive, I simply look at people around me and not only at my dad's business (from the beginning you've been reminding me of a girl I used to argue with. She kept mentionning her dad's business as an argument). That comes back to what I said: you're talking through the employers' point of view.

This description of the battle civil service vs private sector sounds a little Disneyish. The situation of private employees can be very different from one business to another; besides, you're contradicting yourself : those who are "have not" are so precisely because they are deprived of all means of being respected (then the gouvernment has to intervene).
This kind of hate against civil servants have always been a part of the UMP's strategy in order to conceal the real problem. It's typical among people with a crappy job, kicked in the ass by their bosses, to complain about (for instance) the railwaymen who have always fought for their rights (when you point it out, they're like "these guys have to adapt,... that's what the world is like, now,...". How easy... (they mustn't have read Rhinoceros) You just have to let those it arranges tell you what things have to be like.)


(okay, the rest for later...)

ambro25

Hyla arborea wrote:

Do you know how i-pods are made? (just as an example)

I do. Do you know why they're not made in France, were not invented in France or why Apple couldn't ever have been a French company ? I do as well.

Hyla arborea wrote:

It's not about asking for a higher unemployment benefit - which wouldn't help the economic situation : people have to keep their jobs, and you won't have endless amounts of jobs as long as profit-making companies keep firing thousands of people when it suits them.

Noone said anything about raising the SMIC or the ASSEDIC: my point is that they're about as high as (im)possible, unsustainably so given the prevalent economic and tax policies in France.

Hyla arborea wrote:

?? The disertings of Rich and Brains are two opposite problems: the latter have been faced with an unfavourable UMP policy whereas the former consider this policy hasn't been pushed far enough.

Erm... I'd class myself, rightly or wrongly, along the 'deserting brains' (French educated, mostly, and went to seek my fortune elsewhere). For the record, I left in 1994 (and it was already nothing new back then), so a hell of a long time before any UMP policies were even discussed, never mind implemented or even given a run to gauge their efficiency.

Again, you misunderstand or misrepresent my point: the Exodus of rich and/or smart French people is not political (only politicians and begrudgers make it a political issue), it's as much symptomatic as it is practical. Because when the grass has most definitely turned yellow in your field, you don't bother checking what shade of green exactly it is is in the neighbour's - so long as it's green.

Hyla arborea wrote:

You're obviously talking through the employers' point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?
<snip>
Sure, employees are a great threat for their bosses... Come on, they do not decide anything - they do what they're told and shut up.

Oh, really? Hyla arborea, you're obviously talking through the employee's point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?

Let's be clear here - I have mostly been an employee, I have at times been an employer, and we're now discussing what should be done for France to be able to punch at least at its weight, if not above. It's a political discussion, which has to incorporate economics, and which has to be be objective in respect of both sides of the divide: and in economical terms, that means there must be as much incentive for the employer to offer jobs, as there must be for the employee to take said jobs.

Employees decide whether they're going to give 100% of their work effort to their company, or pull a sicky, or skive, or... In 'liberal' economies, if you don't put in the effort you get laid off - In France's very special economy, if you've got a CDI, the Prudhommes are always with you (I know this from 1st hand experience as an employer) and the employer's basically f*cked if he/she is trying to lay you off when you don't pull your weight. What's the alternative? The work has got to be done, so it can get billed and then paid by customers, which eventually pay the employee's wage.

Hyla arborea wrote:

By hearing you, it sounds as if they were forced to live. They just just do in order to make more profit. Capitalism works on the same exponential pattern as some mental illnesses such as anorexia or bulimia.

You still don't understand communicating vases, do you? If you take more tax at the snap of governemental fingers, the company which cannot increase its market at the snap of competitive fingers in proportion to the tax cut must cut costs. Oh... and I thought it was Communism which worked on the same pattern as some mental illnesses (e.g. particularly virulent schizophrenia )?

Hyla arborea wrote:

My work experience isn't that extensive,

Well, colour me dumbfounded :eek: You don't say! And you said you were coming to Ireland for what, again? Work? Boy are you in for a cultural shock!

Hyla arborea wrote:

I simply look at people around me and not only at my dad's business (from the beginning you've been reminding me of a girl I used to argue with. She kept mentionning her dad's business as an argument). That comes back to what I said: you're talking through the employers' point of view.

You know, I should also mention that my Dad has been doing quite a bit of pressurising of late, to get me to come back to France and join him to eventually take the reins.

Which I have no intention of doing, incidentally, even though I am presently an employee.

I'm not mentioning my Dad's business as an argument, just as some first-hand experience of both sides of the divide, and I don't believe that I have argued or otherwise written from a point of view demonstrating that I have been "looking only at my Dad's business".

I believe I've already pointed out that I've had my own business (in France, then in Luxembourg - I also have a small business now, actually, based at home).

My point of view is liberal, period. It is entirely based on meritocratic principles: if I want a 4x4 (say), I have to earn the €s to buy the 4x4, so off I go and work until I get the €s.

If I want more €s, I need to change job/career, I need to acquire more skills, I need to make myself worth more to an employer and usually a combination of all that: I am the product, the employer is the consumer, the employer gets the product, he pays for the privilege - period. It's totally down to me, though, not the State: I want the extra stuff, the State has no duty to provide me with it.

The sooner the average French punter realises that, i.e. that he or she is in competition with his fellow worker, not with the boss, and that whatever lifestyle improvement he or she is after only come as a result of grafting and not whinging or striking, the sooner things will start to improve.
Of course, that French punter first has to lose the automatic reflex to ask the State for all 3 characteristics (money, job, more skills)

Your point of view smacks of socialist rethoric, bordering on communist. You don't sound very old at all, so I'd venture you're not actually expressing your own points of view just yet (as in - reflecting your experience of life, not the soundbites of unionised socialists).

That's particularly exacerbated in your last paragraphs commenting about my point re. "civil service vs private sector", which is frankly laughable - but perfectly understandable coming from a young French person, unfortunately.

Manic Moran

Again, you misunderstand or misrepresent my point: the Exodus of rich and/or smart French people is not political (only politicians and begrudgers make it a political issue), it's as much symptomatic as it is practical. Because when the grass has most definitely turned yellow in your field, you don't bother checking what shade of green exactly it is is in the neighbour's - so long as it's green.

Do you think there's a similarity between this French Exodus, and the Brain Drain that Ireland suffered in the '80s/90s?

The Irish brain drain has, if I recall, recently started to reverse, could similar policies be implemented in France?

NTM

ambro25

Absolutely. What little I have learned about Ireland in the nearly 3 years I've been here, is that indeed in the 80s/90s, Ireland was in pretty much the same shape France is about to be if nothing gets done - if not already there. Same contributing economical and political factors, same dead-end for newly super-qualified classes of age wanting more (Sir... please ) for themselves.

The paradox is that if 'youth' wasn't so well educated in the first place, they wouldn't have had known better than to stick around with their acquired skillsets!

sovtek

Hyla I think its so funny when i hear Irish people talking about how much better Ireland is than (place continental European country here). I usually think "you must have never been there" and then when they say they have I wonder "are you mad!!!".
You sound very politically savvy. We could use more of ye over here (and in America too) .

sovtek

ambro25 wrote:

I do. Do you know why they're not made in France, were not invented in France or why Apple couldn't ever have been a French company ? I do as well.

They aren't made in France like they aren't made in Ireland or probably anywhere else in the developed world...there are too many poor Indians/Chinese/Tiawanese...etc.etc out there to exploit. Should Apple have existed in France it would have probably had to show something from the massive government subsidies it got to start out...so maybe you're right it would never existed in France

Noone said anything about raising the SMIC or the ASSEDIC: my point is that they're about as high as (im)possible, unsustainably so given the prevalent economic and tax policies in France.

Are subsidies and other tax funded benefits that "defence" contractors get in France also unsustainable?

Again, you misunderstand or misrepresent my point: the Exodus of rich and/or smart French people is not political (only politicians and begrudgers make it a political issue), it's as much symptomatic as it is practical. Because when the grass has most definitely turned yellow in your field, you don't bother checking what shade of green exactly it is is in the neighbour's - so long as it's green.

I wonder how you explain the brain drain now currently taking place in America...ie people aren't going to college because there aren't any jobs for them.

Oh, really? Hyla arborea, you're obviously talking through the employee's point of view. What you say is not objective, how could it be trusted?

Let's be clear here - I have mostly been an employee, I have at times been an employer,

And if your dad was a successful businessman would that also mean that you come from the priviledged side of things rather than coming from "both" perspectives. People fighting for a decent standard of living from companies that make massive profits and people fighting to make themselves ever and ever richer in my opinion is two completely different scenarios.

Employees decide whether they're going to give 100% of their work effort to their company, or pull a sicky, or skive, or... In 'liberal' economies, if you don't put in the effort you get laid off - In France's very special economy, if you've got a CDI, the Prudhommes are always with you (I know this from 1st hand experience as an employer) and the employer's basically f*cked if he/she is trying to lay you off when you don't pull your weight. What's the alternative? The work has got to be done, so it can get billed and then paid by customers, which eventually pay the employee's wage.

You don't seem to understand the difference between being laid off and fired. Do you know about Bank of Ireland's fairly recent attempt to make a massive layoff when they were billions in the black. Work harder make more my ass.
Kinda undermines some of your points about graft later in you post.

Oh... and I thought it was Communism which worked on the same pattern as some mental illnesses (e.g. particularly virulent schizophrenia )?

Works a trick when it isnt' consciously subverted by a superpower. Scandanavia?

Well, colour me dumbfounded :eek: You don't say! And you said you were coming to Ireland for what, again? Work? Boy are you in for a cultural shock!

Boy is she ever. I have never meet such incompetant, greedy and narrow minded management in my life.

mike65

I understand London was the third largest population cluster in the French elections! The 300,000 might well return if the signals are right.

Mike.