Should the Taoiseach resign?

Our man in Havana

What would happen? Would it cause a crisis of state?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ArthurDent

And let MacDowell become Taoiseach - I can't stand bertie, but Noooooooo!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Jonny Arson

ArthurDent wrote:

And let MacDowell become Taoiseach - I can't stand bertie, but Noooooooo!:eek: :eek: :eek:

lol, just thinking the same thing myself!

and yes, Ahern should absolutely resign

but he wont.... ever.

Chakar

No ****ing way.

cast_iron

And why would he resign now? Because of rumours? Without even giving him a chance to explain himself?

How about innocent until proven guilty?

RuggieBear

cast_iron wrote:

Without even giving him a chance to explain himself?

lol

how many chances does he need....?

Lennoxschips

I don't think it matters if he's guilty or innocent, politicians are supposed to set a good example. When you are Minister of Finance you do not keep 50k stashed in a safe at the office and take a few more thousand in special "loans", from influential businessmen, that don't need to be repaid unless you get found it. Oh and take a briefcase full of 30k sterling from the owner of your house.

The rest of us in the real world have to live with mortgages, loans and bank accounts. When the Minister of Finance couldn't be bothered, it makes a mockery out of the whole political system.

Has he broken a law? I don't know. Should he resign? No. He should be sacked.

Santa Claus

cast_iron wrote:

And why would he resign now? Because of rumours? Without even giving him a chance to explain himself?

How about innocent until proven guilty?

Rumours...How about testimony he gave to the Mahon tribunal...unless he was only telling them rumours !!
Either he lied to the people last week about who received the 30k or he lied to the Mahon tribunal....either way he lied !

Only way FF can save their vote is if Bertie is ousted as leader. Technically Cowen could take over as leader of FF while Bertie remained as Taoiseach couldn't he ?

wow sierra

Ye can decide if ye want him on 24th of May. The notion of him resigning before that is daft. I assume if Fianna Fáil are the senior partner in the new Government his party or their coalition partners will decide if he is taoiseach. I doubt he would resign then either - I think Fianna Fáil giving in to Labour/The greens about this would be seen as weak and would be a bad way to start a coalition. They might decide the price was too high. If they are not in Government then he won't be Taoiseach. Simple.

Removing him as leader now would have a negative effect on the Fianna Fáil vote, never mind the drastic effect a leadership battle would have half way through an election campaign. It aint going ot happen.

cast_iron

Well, I for one, will wait to see what he says before calling for resignations.

Santa Claus

wow sierra wrote:

Removing him as leader now would have a negative effect on the Fianna Fáil vote, never mind the drastic effect a leadership battle would have half way through an election campaign. It aint going ot happen.

You really think so ?
Only the die hard FF voters will vote for them with Bertie at the helm...The negative publicity/scandal about his financial dealings will put off any wavering FF voters.
I'd imagine some of the FF candidates will be out with ladders tonight taking down the "Bertie's team" posters to avoid being tarred with the same brush !

cast_iron wrote:

Well, I for one, will wait to see what he says before calling for resignations.

Well, it could be a long wait.
According to the RTE 9 o'c news he'll make a declaration before the election.....the longer he leaves it the worse it will be !

ArthurDent

wow sierra wrote:

Ye can decide if ye want him on 24th of May. The notion of him resigning before that is daft. I assume if Fianna Fáil are the senior partner in the new Government his party or their coalition partners will decide if he is taoiseach. I doubt he would resign then either - I think Fianna Fáil giving in to Labour/The greens about this would be seen as weak and would be a bad way to start a coalition. They might decide the price was too high. If they are not in Government then he won't be Taoiseach. Simple.

Removing him as leader now would have a negative effect on the Fianna Fáil vote, never mind the drastic effect a leadership battle would have half way through an election campaign. It aint going ot happen.

Why is the notion of him resiging daft - surely the party is bigger than Bertie. If I was a FF supporter - I'd be mighty pi$$ed off at the moment - Bertie must have known that all this crap (true or otherwise) was going to follow him from last oct on, he has already flagged the fact that he doesn't plan on being around forever - didn't he always plan to retire at 60 - so why didn't he stand down in Dec/jan let biffo or hanafin or whoever take over and fight the election on policies and cash in on the feel good factor of good(ish) economy and SSIA dosh.

wow sierra

I don't think it is having as negative an effect as the Media is suggesting. I think a lot of people see it as a side issue. Maybe I am wrong. The next poll should be interesting.

Victor

Hasn't he resigned already when he called the election?

ArthurDent

Victor wrote:

Hasn't he resigned already when he called the election?

not as leader of the party - all the posters around my area are
"vote for candidate X - Bertie's team"

cost a fortune to replace now to say "Biffo's Team":p

Seth Brundle

Chakar wrote:

No ****ing way.

If you don't mind me asking, is this because you truly believe that he shouldn't (and if so why do you believe this?) or out of party loyalites?
As you are heavily involved with FF, is there a lot of unease with the allegations levied against him or do you all believe that this is a plot to victimies him?
Do you believe that there is not something strange about a Minister for Finance not having a bank account and having money handed in suspicious circumstances?

Chakar

kbannon wrote:

If you don't mind me asking, is this because you truly believe that he shouldn't (and if so why do you believe this?) or out of party loyalites?
As you are heavily involved with FF, is there a lot of unease with the allegations levied against him or do you all believe that this is a plot to victimies him?
Do you believe that there is not something strange about a Minister for Finance not having a bank account and having money handed in suspicious circumstances?

Not at all. Bertie Ahern has led this country for over ten years now and we've had two administrations under him. For him to go now, would be a disservice to the people of Ireland in the middle of a general election campaign. Bertie Ahern as leader of the Fianna Fáil party has put forward our platform entitled 'Now, The Next Steps' in the main policy areas concerned. So we will see what is the overall state of the parties after the election. The poll increase for Fianna Fáil proves my case in point.

There is no coincidence that the facts were leaked just as a general election was called. These facts were circulated by the tribunal among the parties on Thursday in preparation for the Quarryvale module. One or more of the parties involved are evidently leaking this information to the papers. The fact is that the public do not have the total story on these incessant leaks. It's all very selective, focusing on one such event ignoring the context and other facts, which may be associated with such an event.

I don't think it matters, that he didn't have an bank account. He can deal with his money any way he chooses and rightly so as it's his own.

Anyway Bertie has said that he'll issue a comprehensive statement after he has met with his legal team after Thursday. I hope it lay the whole matter at rest.

InFront

Chakar wrote:

Not at all. Bertie Ahern has led this country for over ten years now and we've had two administrations under him. For him to go now, would be a disservice to the people of Ireland in the middle of a general election campaign.

You would probably have said the same thing about Haughey in 1989

ArthurDent

Chakar wrote:

Not at all. Bertie Ahern has led this country for over ten years now and we've had two administrations under him. For him to go now, would be a disservice to the people of Ireland in the middle of a general election campaign. Bertie Ahern as leader of the Fianna Fáil party has put forward our platform entitled 'Now, The Next Steps' in the main policy areas concerned. So we will see what is the overall state of the parties after the election. The poll increase for Fianna Fáil proves my case in point.

There is no coincidence that the facts were leaked just as a general election was called. These facts were circulated by the tribunal among the parties on Thursday in preparation for the Quarryvale module. One or more of the parties involved are evidently leaking this information to the tribunals. The fact is that the public do not have the total story on these incessant leaks. It's all very selective, focusing on one such event ignoring the context and other facts, which may be associated with such an event.

I don't think it matters, that he didn't have an bank account. He can deal with his money any way he chooses and rightly so as it's his own.

Anyway Bertie has said that he'll issue a comprehensive statement after he has met with his legal team after Thursday. I hope it lay the whole matter at rest.

Even if all this is true and Bertie and purer than the driven snow - why oh why did he not go much earlier - "in the interest of the party". As a FF supporter aren't you sick of the whole election campaign being totally focussed on one man - would it not have been better for the party for someone else to have taken the party into this election?

Seth Brundle

Chakar wrote:

There is no coincidence that the facts were leaked just as a general election was called. These facts were circulated by the tribunal among the parties on Thursday in preparation for the Quarryvale module. One or more of the parties involved are evidently leaking this information to the tribunals. The fact is that the public do not have the total story on these incessant leaks. It's all very selective, focusing on one such event ignoring the context and other facts, which may be associated with such an event.

Thats a serious allegation against the tribunal. However, there are counter suggestions that he delayed calling to wait until after the High Court action taken by Hazel Lawlor. There are even some suggestions (see the current Phoenix) that FF kindly assisted Ms. Lawlor financially in her action.
As for the public not having the full story: why was the full story not revealed last October? Why was the full story not been revealed in the past week? What context? What other facts? We haven't been told so what are we to think? Bertie (and subsequently FF) has nobody to blame but himself.

Chakar wrote:

Anyway Bertie has said that he'll issue a comprehensive statement after he has met with his legal team after Thursday. I hope it lay the whole matter at rest.

He only now agreeing to this. All week he was saying that he would discuss it with the tribunal when the time comes (which would have been after the election!)

cast_iron

ArthurDent wrote:

As a FF supporter aren't you sick of the whole election campaign being totally focussed on one man - would it not have been better for the party for someone else to have taken the party into this election?

Well in fairness, it's the media making a meal of it. The opposition are being fairly quiet on the matter (they learnt their lesson).

Also, FF owe a large part of their success to one man - Bertie. Like him or loathe him, "The Bertie Factor" has been one of the main reason for the party's success.

Chakar

ArthurDent wrote:

Even if all this is true and Bertie and purer than the driven snow - why oh why did he not go much earlier - "in the interest of the party". As a FF supporter aren't you sick of the whole election campaign being totally focussed on one man - would it not have been better for the party for someone else to have taken the party into this election?

The question is why would he leave?

Dandesav

I definitely think he should resign.

He was incredibly arrogant to refuse to make a statement last week when it was clearly in the public interest to know what exactly happened- it is very unfair to confuse the whole country like that, particularly as he is our elected leader. Now that McDowell is angry, suddenly he is 'not averse' to making a statement and is only delighted to sort out the situation...in four...maybe five days. But definitely before the election.

It is crazy- we are all supposed to feel sorry for him and FF when, in the first place, he didn't have to take all the money, and second, he has had since September to 'make a statement'.

Meanwhile the other parties are trying to get on with the election and fight it (pardon the cliché, but it really is the truth!) on 'the issues'. If FF were serious about fighting it on the issues, Bertie would have at least made an effort to clear things up- if he had and the media kept at him, then it would not be his fault and I would have sympathy for him. However, he decided to continue with mutterings of semi-literate English (which have characterised his time in office) allowing him to skirt the issue in an effort to gain a sympathy vote. FF are now trying to turn the election into a referendum on Bertie which is an insult to the Irish public.

Chakar

kbannon wrote:

As for the public not having the full story: why was the full story not revealed last October? Why was the full story not been revealed in the past week? What context? What other facts? We haven't been told so what are we to think? Bertie (and subsequently FF) has nobody to blame but himself.
He only now agreeing to this. All week he was saying that he would discuss it with the tribunal when the time comes (which would have been after the election!)

I don't claim to know the reasons surrounding Bertie Ahern's decisions. We will see what happens in respect, to the comprehensive statement issued. Of course the proper place to discuss it, is at the tribunal set up by the Houses of the Oireachtas. What other forum is there?

cast_iron

kbannon wrote:

why was the full story not revealed last October? Why was the full story not been revealed in the past week?

The tribunals. He got a rebuke for making that statement last October. He said as little as possible because it was all due to come up in the tribunal, and like an ongoing court case, you really shouldn't pre-empt them.

kbannon wrote:

He only now agreeing to this. All week he was saying that he would discuss it with the tribunal when the time comes (which would have been after the election!)

Yes. But like last October, he thought the National (and his own) interest would be better served to address the public on the issue. And his hand was forced due to the leakings.

Pride Fighter

He should have resigned a long time ago.

Mick86

Bond-007 wrote:

What would happen? Would it cause a crisis of state?

We're going to have an election in two weeks. What's the point in his resigning. The electorate will make the decision and judging on past results and today's polls Bertie will sail through with that "Why are they all at me?" look on his face.

Voipjunkie

kbannon wrote:

Thats a serious allegation against the tribunal. However, there are counter suggestions that he delayed calling to wait until after the High Court action taken by Hazel Lawlor. There are even some suggestions (see the current Phoenix) that FF kindly assisted Ms. Lawlor financially in her action.

I heard it myself prior to the Phoenix magazine it was well known that the President was going away so bertie going up Sunday Morning was very odd. If the Lawlor case had gone his way on Friday then none of this would have come out.

Santa Claus

Chakar wrote:

Anyway Bertie has said that he'll issue a comprehensive statement after he has met with his legal team after Thursday.

When he says legal team I think it's safe to assume that this "legal" team with be made up of PJ and various other spin gurus.

Bertie to legal team: "jaysis lads, I've been caught bleedin rapid this time, what the f*ck will I say to get out of this one" ?

You can see Cowen and Bertie dressed up as laurel & hardy with Biffo saying to Bertie "that's another fine mess you've got us into"

Voipjunkie

Bertie is using the tribunals to hide behind the tribunal is not tasked with investigating or making any conclusions on berties dealings with Wall it is only tasked with finding out if O'Callaghan paid him money and Bertie in return did him a favour by blocking a developement.
The Wall stuff has come about because bertie has to account for the large ammounts of money that were sloshing about him during the timeframe to prove it did not come from O'Callaghan.
The tribunal is not investigating the Wall deals or the Manchester deals in themselves but only to ascertain that the money came from there and not O'Callaghan so waiting on the tribunals to find out what happened is a waste of time and Bertie knows that.

spanner

As echoed by other posters he shouldnt resign because in a few weeks we the people get to chose weather we are happy with his conduct.

As far as I am concerned every stay at home voter, PD and FF voter are saying, "yes I dont mind what Bertie did and really dont care if he continues"

what will we say....

Pride Fighter

Bertie should resign and let Cowen take the reigns. At least Cowen appears to be an honest if slightly odd politician.

DoubleJoe7

spanner wrote:

As echoed by other posters he shouldnt resign because in a few weeks we the people get to chose weather we are happy with his conduct.

As far as I am concerned every stay at home voter, PD and FF voter are saying, "yes I dont mind what Bertie did and really dont care if he continues"

what will we say....

The problem is, however, that many "stay at home" or absent voters will be doing so not out of choice but because they can't due to the Thursday vote. "Selective Democracy" could well bail the crook out...

Pride Fighter

True. Nearly every 3rd level institute will have exams on that day meaning that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of students from all over the country wont be able to vote. Bertie knows this and students tend to be liberal and environmentalists. If they could vote the Greens could get over a dozen seats with labour going over two dozen. Electoral gerrymandering by Bertie at its best.

patrickc

in simple terms he should.. he's a muppet and the next haughey as far as im concerned

Pride Fighter

lol. Well said. Couldnt have said it better myself.

SeanW

Should the Taoiseach resign?

IMO, no.

Even though I'm not his biggest fan, I do believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and this is an absolute.

I will wait to see what he has to say later this week in his statement. Like many others, I'd like this election campaign to be done on issues, which quite frankly there are a lot of, not Chinese Whispers about someone's finances. Michael McDowell needs to figure out what he's doing. If he has some serious information about Bertie's finances that is too troubling, he should reveal this information and get out of government. If not, he should stop being a drama queen.

Heinrich

Chakar wrote:

The question is why would he leave?

Integrity a good enough reason?

Selective revelations

Selective democracy

Selective integrity

Select Velcro Taoiseach

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

IMO, no.

Even though I'm not his biggest fan, I do believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and this is an absolute.

I will wait to see what he has to say later this week in his statement. Like many others, I'd like this election campaign to be done on issues, which quite frankly there are a lot of, not Chinese Whispers about someone's finances. Michael McDowell needs to figure out what he's doing. If he has some serious information about Bertie's finances that is too troubling, he should reveal this information and get out of government. If not, he should stop being a drama queen.

well said.

Heinrich

Tristrame wrote:

well said.

Eloquent yes, valid not so sure.

...as in - a nicely wrapped and delivered turd is still a turd.

Time to decide if we want shady dealers running the show. There is no shadow of doubt that the revelations and how they are being delivered are shady.

joolsveer

I don't think Bertie should resign as after all he hasn't taken as much money from his friends and the tax payer as Charles J. Haughey who was never convicted of any crime. I think the media are orchestrating a campaign of vilification against Bertie. He is not doing anything that any other FFer wouldn't do in the same circumstances.

My granny had a saying "if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas". Wasn't Bertie the protégé of Charlie? Why would anybody expect him to behave in a different way to his mentor? You can't expect a leopard to change his spots.

Heinrich

joolsveer wrote:

I don't think Bertie should resign as after all he hasn't taken as much money from his friends and the tax payer as Charles J. Haughey who was never convicted of any crime.

It is not known how much money Bertie got from his friends and the taxpayer. That is why we have the expensive tribunals which do not have any real powers. They simply try to make the unclear clear.

When the Bertiegate was in full swing in October last, certain monies were not mentioned and this is why McD was doing his grumbling. Even allowing for those recent disclosures it is not beyond the realms of reason to believe that there could be further money issues which have not been disclosed.

The thundering silence of Celia and Miriam is also questionable. If I was involved in suspicions of this nature I would certainly do mz utmost to clear my (good) name.

As for sleeping with dogs - rabies comes to mind.

Dandesav

joolsveer wrote:

I don't think Bertie should resign as after all he hasn't taken as much money from his friends and the tax payer as Charles J. Haughey who was never convicted of any crime. I think the media are orchestrating a campaign of vilification against Bertie. He is not doing anything that any other FFer wouldn't do in the same circumstances.

So because Charlie got away with it Bertie should to? It doesn't matter how much or how little he took, the fact is he did.

cast_iron

SeanW wrote:

I
Even though I'm not his biggest fan, I do believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and this is an absolute.

I will wait to see what he has to say later this week in his statement. Like many others, I'd like this election campaign to be done on issues, which quite frankly there are a lot of, not Chinese Whispers about someone's finances. Michael McDowell needs to figure out what he's doing. If he has some serious information about Bertie's finances that is too troubling, he should reveal this information and get out of government. If not, he should stop being a drama queen.

So, on the one hand you are saying we should wait to let Bertie explain himself. But on the other hand, McDowell shouldn't offer the same courtesy?

jos28

Bertie was trained by the Master. Its obvious that there is a ton of sh** that the Taoiseach has kept hidden. But like Charlie it will all come out eventually. He should just own up and face the consequences.

Seth Brundle

Bertie wasn't trained by the master. He was too busy signing blank cheques for him to receive any training!

Dandesav

jos28 wrote:

Bertie was trained by the Master. Its obvious that there is a ton of sh** that the Taoiseach has kept hidden. But like Charlie it will all come out eventually. He should just own up and face the consequences.

Didn't Charlie once call Bertie 'the most cunning, the most devious'?

Jesus, if HE calls you that...

Lennoxschips

Bertie shuold have been sacked in October when he admitted himself that he appointed influential businessmen and develepors to important state boards not, in his words, because they just all happened to give him loadsamoney (which didn't have to be repaid, let's be honest), but because they were his friends.

Anybody who doesn't understand the corruption and cronyism involved in that is in cloud cuckoo land.

And then he has the cheek to show up at rugby matches with paddy the plasterer sitting next to him. Two fingers to the honest, hard-working people of Ireland, that is.

is_that_so

SeanW wrote:

IMO, no.

Even though I'm not his biggest fan, I do believe that one is innocent until proven guilty, and this is an absolute.

I will wait to see what he has to say later this week in his statement. Like many others, I'd like this election campaign to be done on issues, which quite frankly there are a lot of, not Chinese Whispers about someone's finances. Michael McDowell needs to figure out what he's doing. If he has some serious information about Bertie's finances that is too troubling, he should reveal this information and get out of government. If not, he should stop being a drama queen.

Agreed.

The danger of this story, as far as I can see, is that the election could end up going away from the government just because the alternative are not the government.

I am of the opinion that this election should be fought on issues that will affect us for the next five years. Bertie Gate and Mahon will have gone long before that time. He can be replaced, albeit not before the election.

So there is a credibility issue about him, but does that issue , by association extend to his party?

I would much rather see the decision we make, based on what is best for the country than a media-driven campaign to get Bertie. As some of the RTE pundits mentioned last week there is no telling what way the story can go and what it will do. Last November is telling in how the story then backfired , in that his popularity rose.

I am hoping that the statement when it comes, will answer enough questions for the story to be returned to Mahon , where I think it belongs.

oscarBravo

is_that_so wrote:

So there is a credibility issue about him, but does that issue , by association extend to his party?

Pretty much automatically, if they unequivocally back him.