It's a bit rich of Labour...

wb

To canvass the Catholic vote.

As I left mass today, I was met by a number of canvassers from both the green party and a good few from Labour. As the labour guy approached me, he tried to give me some leaflets, and I politely refused.

I thought that he had some cheek trying to canvass the Catholic vote.

Whether or not you agree/disagree with these issues (and I don't want an argument about them here), Labour support gay marriage, abortion, free contraception etc etc.

As I say, I don't want to argue about the above issues, but Labour should not patronise people. They are playing two tunes from the one pipe. They come out against the CC in the media, yet they happily ignore this as they mention other issues such as the economy at the church gate - carefully ignoring the moral issues.
With the likes of Ivana Backic running for the labour party, they are really annoying me canvassing outside the church.

Time Magazine

wb wrote:

With the likes of Ivana Backic running for the labour party, they are really annoying me canvassing outside the church.

Interesting point, but Ivana Bacik is running as an Independent in the University of Dublin (Trinity) Senate constituency.

luckat

They come out against the *corruption* of the Catholic Church, and proper order, too.

Many Catholics vote Labour because they believe in social equality.

wb

Ibid wrote:

Interesting point, but Ivana Bacik is running as an Independent in the University of Dublin (Trinity) Senate constituency.

Ah right, she was associated with Labour at one time.

brianthebard

All parties canvass at mass, where else will you find such a large group of people congregating regularly?(bar the pub of course) Canvassing the Catholic vote suggests pandering to the Catholic Church and running with policies that they agree with in mind, which is not what Labour are doing.

wow sierra

A sizable minority if not a majority of church goers support some of those issues too. Also opinions on those issues are mixed within the Labour Party.

A party which is serious about winning an election should canvass everywhere and anywhere. On a pragmatic level I reckon there are no votes to be gained or lost in Ireland re Abortion, Contraception, Gay Rights etc . Thats the 80's and early 90's your thinking of.

Dirk Gently

Churches are usually FG canvassing ground rather than Labour.
Maybe they're after the votes of the D.I.Y. Catholics, who, while they go to mass and call themselves catholic, have their own positions and more progressive attitudes than strict catholic dogma permits. I'm not religious myself, but I know a lot of Catholics whose views are essentially more common sense and independent of the church despite wearing the catholic badge.

I don't really like the idea of anyone canvassing a religious market tbh. Anyone party who seeks wide support from the strict catholic vote would scare me.

brianthebard

I dunno clown bag, I think FG may be more traditionally Catholic, but at home at least every party that is running will canvass/have a collection at the gate at some stage. Its just part of Irish politics imo.

wb

Some true points being made, but it would be like the Legion of Mary recruiting at a pro choice rally.

I'm not saying that every Catholic agrees with ever rule, but if a party takes a stance on an issue, they should defend it - even at the church gate. It's funny that the had gay marriage posters etc at college, yet these posters are left at home for the mass canvass.

My point is that a lot of voters are not clear where the parties stand on many isses, and if they canvass outside mass, they are annoying those of us who know their anti-catholic (for want of better words!) ethos.

Múinteoir

It's really rich of FF to court the Catholic vote, when their leader doesn't even live with the mother of his children. At least Labour have some honesty about their position.

wow sierra

Having different posters depending on where you are canvassing is just good politics - once they don't actually cantradict each other.

wb

M&#250 wrote: »

It's really rich of FF to court the Catholic vote, when their leader doesn't even live with the mother of his children. At least Labour have some honesty about their position.

I suppose that's a good point that I cant really argue with Múinteor, but I think she left him to be honest.

Dirk Gently

brianthebard wrote:

I dunno clown bag, I think FG may be more traditionally Catholic, but at home at least every party that is running will canvass/have a collection at the gate at some stage. Its just part of Irish politics imo.

You're right of course, which is why I'm always cautious of FG and yes, all the major parties do hang around at the church gates. Maybe labour are at the church telling people......

"vote for us because FG will block anything non-catholic we try to do anyway".

wow sierra

For God's sake people(sorry no irony intended!!) - almost everyone in Ireland are Catholic whether lapsed or whatever. It just isn't an issue - "looking for the Catholic vote". Have we become Bush's America or something??

Dana did it in a European election about 10 years ago but even that was more a vote for her pleasant personality and not her religious views. There is no way it would work on a local level.

Múinteoir

wb wrote:

I suppose that's a good point that I cant really argue with Múinteor, but I think she left him to be honest.

Only after he committed adultery (a mortal sin in the Catholic Church) with Celia Larkin! But he's still waffling on about "aggressive secularism" and showing off his ashes on his forehead in the Dáil on Ash Wednesday. Now personally I couldn't give a flying f**k who Bertie Ahern sleeps with, but he's some neck trying to pass himself off as a pious Catholic for electoral gain. It'd make anyone with a shred of morality sick, be they Catholic or not. But the mass-going biddies with their rosary beads will still vote for him in droves! :rolleyes:

Zaph

I think a lot of "religious" voters (I'd imagine there are more than just Catholics who would be of a similar opinion to the OP) are quite pragmatic, and while not necessarily agreeing with a particular party's stance on one or more moral issues, they would support their economic/justice/transport/whatever policies and vote for them on the basis that they'll be better for the country, in their opinion. I don't think we're at the stage America is at where a moral stance, or worse, a candidate's religion, can win or lose an election for them.

Múinteoir

zaph wrote:

I think a lot of "religious" voters (I'd imagine there are more than just Catholics who would be of a similar opinion to the OP) are quite pragmatic, and while not necessarily agreeing with a particular party's stance on one or more moral issues, they would support their economic/justice/transport/whatever policies and vote for them on the basis that they'll be better for the country, in their opinion.

Nail on head zaph. Well put.

Dirk Gently

wow sierra wrote:

almost everyone in Ireland are Catholic .

Not really. I and most of my friends are atheist or agnostic, my father and brother are both atheist and my mother is a staunch catholic. It's not really about what was done to you as a baby, more about as an adult capable of critical thinking, how many are really catholic? Most people I know from being at college, from work and just friends would not be catholic, although nearly all of us were christened as babies.

In relation to the "catholic vote", i.e. people who vote based on religious values of political parties I think the number would not be anywhere near "almost everyone in Ireland". Like I said, most catholics are D.I.Y. catholics and will vote for parties based issues other than religion. The hardcore catholic vote is not what it use to be and parties will pick up votes at the gates of a church (even labour).

wow sierra

I don't like the "mass going biddies with their rosary beads" comment.

Individuals are complex and have as many varied opinions as they are in number. The usual attitude, and I apologise for generalising, of the older more devout Catholic is "hate the sin but love the sinner". I remember listening to numerous criticisms of too much sex on TV, the way the country was gone to hell etc etc while growing up in a Rosary saying Catholic family. However this didn't extend to lack of acceptance of single parents etc. I sometimes think older people are more tolerant than self rightious so called liberals.

If you don't like Bertie Ahern thats fine, but to bring up his separation as an issue in 2007 is a laugh.

wow sierra

clown bag wrote:

Not really. I and most of my friends are atheist or agnostic, my father and brother are both atheist and my mother is a staunch catholic. It's not really about what was done to you as a baby, more about as an adult capable of critical thinking, how many are really catholic? Most people I know from being at college, from work and just friends would not be catholic, although nearly all of us were christened as babies.

In relation to the "catholic vote", i.e. people who vote based on religious values of political parties I think the number would not be anywhere near "almost everyone in Ireland". Like I said, most catholics are D.I.Y. catholics and will vote for parties based issues other than religion. The hardcore catholic vote is not what it use to be and parties will pick up votes at the gates of a church (even labour).

Thats exactly what I said if you read my post - there is no Catholic vote, that was my point!!

Incidently among your friends who are agnostic etc - how many have children who are not baptised and who don't make their first communion. I find my friends while they dont attend mass do christen their children and take them to communion and comfirmation get married and buried in the church etc - thats what I mean by Catholic lapsed or not.

Múinteoir

wow sierra wrote:

I don't like the "mass going biddies with their rosary beads" comment.

Individuals are complex and have as many varied opinions as they are in number. The usual attitude, and I apologise for generalising, of the older more devout Catholic is "hate the sin but love the sinner". I remember listening to numerous criticisms of too much sex on TV, the way the country was gone to hell etc etc while growing up in a Rosary saying Catholic family. However this didn't extend to lack of acceptance of single parents etc. I sometimes think older people are more tolerant than self rightious so called liberals.

If you don't like Bertie Ahern thats fine, but to bring up his separation as an issue in 2007 is a laugh.

wow sierra, I've made it clear I don't care what Bertie does in his personal life. What bothers me is his hypocrisy and the common hypocrisy I see amongst many practising Catholic as to how they pick and choose what they get offended by as regards transgressions of Catholic morality.

Dirk Gently

wow sierra wrote:

- thats what I mean by Catholic lapsed or not.

or keeping up with the jones. A lot of that is just social norms and not to deviate from the christianing / communion / church marriage is more about tradition rather than religion. If most schools weren't run by religios orders how many parents would actually go out of their way to get their kid confirmed. Personally, should I ever have kids I wouldn't do it, and I have no intention of having a church wedding or funeral but I accept most people do the whole church thing. Still wouldn't class them as catholic though.

blorg

The "Catholic" nature of this country is over-represented. This is due to it being not just a "religious" identity but also an ethnic/nationalistic one (compare Judaism in a way.) Most people who were baptised into the Church will put down "Catholic" on the census form, irrespective of their current beliefs. It doesn't help that "Atheist" isn't an option on the census (only "No Religion.")

A more accurate picture may come from mass attendence, which is down below 50% - but even then the only relatively devout mass-goers I know in my generation certainly wouldn't sign up to any of the doctrine on sex or contraception. Such "DIY" Catholicism or "hypocrisy" if you insist on calling it that is quite the norm in the Catholic countries of Southern Europe.

oscarBravo

blorg wrote:

It doesn't help that "Atheist" isn't an option on the census (only "No Religion.")

There's a difference?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

blorg

oscarBravo wrote:

There's a difference?

Yes, to me anyway "atheist" suggests a _positive_ belief in the absence of a deity, rather than the simple "absence" of adherence to X Y or Z. The census question is conveniently vague. "No religion" in the context of the census is a bit of a "none of the above" box - there are plenty of people who are Catholic by birth but who would not be current subscribers. I know several people who would not believe in God at all, nevermind the rest (I'm presuming that's a requirement?) but still put "Catholic" down as their religion in the last census. It is not simply a religious label in this county.

Macy

clown bag wrote:

or keeping up with the jones. A lot of that is just social norms and not to deviate from the christianing / communion / church marriage is more about tradition rather than religion. If most schools weren't run by religios orders how many parents would actually go out of their way to get their kid confirmed. Personally, should I ever have kids I wouldn't do it, and I have no intention of having a church wedding or funeral but I accept most people do the whole church thing. Still wouldn't class them as catholic though.

If you ever have kids clown bag, you might have no choice but to tow the religious line along with many other parents who are being black mailed into. After all, if state schools are starting to insist on baptismal certs and you want your kids to go to their local school what are you going to do?

Wishbone Ash

OP - Wouldn't it be wores if the Labour Party were fundraising outside the church!

Dirk Gently

Macy wrote:

If you ever have kids clown bag, you might have no choice but to tow the religious line along with many other parents who are being black mailed into. After all, if state schools are starting to insist on baptismal certs and you want your kids to go to their local school what are you going to do?

A very valid point of course. I feel it would be my duty as a responsible parent to protect my children from religion untill such a time as they are able to make their own decision. It is a horrible situation for any parent to be in who feels this way when trying to enroll their children in schools and those faced with this problem have my sympathy and support. It all goes back to the point I objected to about everyone who has their kids baptised / confirmed being catholic. It is a distortion of the truth and more a reality of the schooling system rather than religious duty.

blorg

It is a serious issue - "No Religion" is actually the second largest grouping after "Roman Catholic," far outstripping any other declared religion ("Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant)" is third.) Atheist and Agnostic are only represented through write-ins. If you are to believe the census there are only 929 Atheists in the country!

Of course if the census actually wanted realistic data the question would be split in two, divided between "raised as..." and "currently adhere to..."

miju

wb wrote:

Whether or not you agree/disagree with these issues (and I don't want an argument about them here), Labour support gay marriage, abortion, free contraception etc etc.

bear in mind that not every catholic is against gay marriage , abortion , free contraception. for example my entire catholic family , mother , father , sister ,grandmother , grandfather and my missus (and the majority of her catholic family) are NOT against gay marriage , are NOT against free contraception and are split down the middle on the issue of abortion

like it or not the followers of catholicism are changing their views on these issues and dare i say its a bit rich for you to presume that we all thikn like you

so in otherwords labour with their policies are perfectly entitled to do what they did and apart from anything else its a free world they can canvass where they like you dont have to engage them as you so freely didnt do

M&#250

M&#250 wrote: »

Only after he committed adultery (a mortal sin in the Catholic Church) with Celia Larkin! But he's still waffling on about "aggressive secularism" and showing off his ashes on his forehead in the Dáil on Ash Wednesday. Now personally I couldn't give a flying f**k who Bertie Ahern sleeps with, but he's some neck trying to pass himself off as a pious Catholic for electoral gain. It'd make anyone with a shred of morality sick, be they Catholic or not. But the mass-going biddies with their rosary beads will still vote for him in droves! :rolleyes:

Tone it down Múinteoir.
One of the nice things about this democracy is a freedom of belief.Everyone else so far has managed to debate in this thread without feeling the need for casual insults thrown at other peoples beliefs like that.

LostinBlanch

Macy wrote:

If you ever have kids clown bag, you might have no choice but to tow the religious line along with many other parents who are being black mailed into. After all, if state schools are starting to insist on baptismal certs and you want your kids to go to their local school what are you going to do?

Macy,

I thought about this when I saw the first post in this thread. Maybe not everyone who's at mass wants to be there, and is just there to make sure that their kid can get into the local school.

Múinteoir

Tristrame wrote:

Tone it down Múinteoir.
One of the nice things about this democracy is a freedom of belief.Everyone else so far has managed to debate in this thread without feeling the need for casual insults thrown at other peoples beliefs like that.

That's the biggest cop-out argument ever! We'd never have any debate if the fear of insulting beliefs was holding us back. On that basis we couldn't criticise any political party in public for fear of insulting their voters. Gimme a break! It might be inappropriate to call someone names, but I have not done that. If you seriously think we can't attack belief systems or political parties for fear of offending their supporters, you don't have a clue about the concept of free speech.

blorg

Múinteoir's point was well made as the OP indeed agreed with. Is "mass going biddies" the specific objection? I hear worse said about just about any political party around here regularly.

Seth Brundle

Derek Scully & his FG canvassers were outside the two Catholic churches in Leixlip today. What was odd about it was that there were people on the opposite side of the road holding a poster each for him but they looked like they were protesting!

patzer117

M&#250 wrote: »

It's really rich of FF to court the Catholic vote, when their leader doesn't even live with the mother of his children. At least Labour have some honesty about their position.

hmm... let's look at this. Labour has a specific policy on abortion, gay marriage, the role of the church in education (remember after the Ferns report Labour trying to get the church to pull out and play no further part?) and the role of the church in general... all of which go against church teachings.

Fianna Fail has a specific policy on abortion, gay marriage, the role of the church in education, and the role of the church in general... all of which complement the church's teachings.

Yes, now i'm seeing it. So it is really rich of FF to court the Catholic vote :rolleyes:

M&#250

M&#250 wrote: »

That's the biggest cop-out argument ever! We'd never have any debate if the fear of insulting beliefs was holding us back. On that basis we couldn't criticise any political party in public for fear of insulting their voters. Gimme a break! It might be inappropriate to call someone names, but I have not done that. If you seriously think we can't attack belief systems or political parties for fear of offending their supporters, you don't have a clue about the concept of free speech.

I was talking about the concept of respect for peoples entitlements to hold beliefs.
This is not a thread about the legitimacy of a catholics beliefs,an atheists beliefs or an anglican.
From what I can see you were throwing in your own disdain for someone elses religion in an off topic manner unnecessarally.
If you want to insult peoples religions or lifestyle belief systems do it elsewhere thanks.Do not do it on the politics forum.

For the record this thread is about looking for votes from people whose belief systems run contrary to what you stand for.
It's not a bash a church thread or a bash a lifestyle thread.
You can take something like that up in humanities.
End of story.

RainyDay

I got a generally warm welcome when canvassing for Labour outside a number of churches yesterday. One gentlemen complained loudly about canvassing outside the church, though his complaint was aimed at all parties, and had nothing to do with Labour policies.

I don't see any huge inconsistency with canvassing for Labour outside a church. How many of the church-goers are 'a la carte', I wonder? How many are using contraception on a regular basis? How many ensure they are in a 'state of grace' before recieving communion.

These are complex issues, and simplistic black/white views do not match reality on the ground.

Time Magazine

kbannon wrote:

Derek Scully & his FG canvassers were outside the two Catholic churches in Leixlip today.

It's Darren Scully

Mick86

wb wrote:

I thought that he had some cheek trying to canvass the Catholic vote.

They weren't canvassing the Catholic vote they were canvassing the crowd which just happened to be coming out of mass.

RainyDay wrote:

...One gentlemen complained loudly about canvassing outside the church, though his complaint was aimed at all parties, and had nothing to do with Labour policies...

Maybe, like me, he thinks all canvassers are just a bloody nuisance.

Múinteoir

patzer117 wrote:

hmm... let's look at this. Labour has a specific policy on abortion, gay marriage, the role of the church in education (remember after the Ferns report Labour trying to get the church to pull out and play no further part?) and the role of the church in general... all of which go against church teachings.

Fianna Fail has a specific policy on abortion, gay marriage, the role of the church in education, and the role of the church in general... all of which complement the church's teachings.

Yes, now i'm seeing it. So it is really rich of FF to court the Catholic vote :rolleyes:

Nice to see you ignored my original point. And if FF are so in tune with Catholic teaching, why aren't they advocating getting rid of divorce, contraception and banning homosexual activities, because they are all things that are now legal, that the Catholic Church fought tooth and nail to oppose.