PD's to meet this afternoon to discuss Bertie's money

ArthurDent

Just announced on RTE news that PeeDees meeting this after noon re berties dosh -thought MacDowell had grilled bertie last year when this all blew up and was happy that he had answered all the questions that needed answering

stepbar

Problem was that it wasnt the half of it. I seen a piece in the independent yesterday. V Browne was questioning Bertie and TBH it was a far from convincing performance on Berties part.

ArthurDent

but it may put them in a no win position - if they say they can't support bertie as taoiseach, where do they go, looks like fg/lab reckon they're fine on their own. why would you bother votung for a party that will have effectively ruled themselves out of a seat at the cabinet?

ballooba

The PDs have new information which is not yet in the public domain. (IT 05.05.07)

Rats jumping off a sinking ship.

stepbar

Dont worry the PD wont go anywhere. The "2% party" knows what's good for them.

mike65

Does seem fairly pointless beyond 'being seen' to be concerned.

Mike.

copacetic

mike65 wrote:

Does seem fairly pointless beyond 'being seen' to be concerned.

Mike.

this is got to be the point though, they are desperate for more support at the polls and it looks like they lost a lot of their credibility as the 'policemen' of FF with the way they handled Berties issues in the autumn. Making a big deal of it now is just trying to look strong on corruption without having any real consequences for them.

If anything these new revelations about Berties finances just make the PDs look more foolish for believing him back in the autumn.

copacetic

copacetic wrote:

it looks like they lost a lot of their credibility as the 'policemen' of FF with the way they handled Berties issues in the autumn.

Surely not given the bounce Bertie got after that?
Are you suggesting that the electorate are Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde-how could they give Ahern a bounce arising out of those allegations and be concerned about the pd police role at the same time?
That wouldnt make sense.

I'd agree though that this looks to me like todays version of the 02 pd cry of stop the FF majority and that the pd drop is to do with they themselves as much as anything.

The_Minister

stepbar wrote:

Dont worry the PD wont go anywhere. The "2% party" knows what's good for them.

The PDs stayed in government on two conditions that I know of:
1) That new laws be enacted so that what Bertie did is now considered illegal, so no-one will do it again.
and
2) That all information regarding the Taoiseach's personal finances be released to the Taniste.
It now appears that Bertie held information back, ergo, the PDs must consider walking.

stepbar

The_Minister wrote:

The PDs stayed in government on two conditions that I know of:
1) That new laws be enacted so that what Bertie did is now considered illegal, so no-one will do it again.
and
2) That all information regarding the Taoiseach's personal finances be released to the Taniste.
It now appears that Bertie held information back, ergo, the PDs must consider walking.

They gave him a slap on the wrist boo hoo... The PD's had no intention of walking, if they had to have Bertie wouldnt have asked them to come back to Government you can be sure of that. They know whats good for them.

copacetic

Tristrame wrote:

Surely not given the bounce Bertie got after that?
Are you suggesting that the electorate are Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde-how could they give Ahern a bounce arising out of those allegations and be concerned about the pd police role at the same time?
That wouldnt make sense.

I'd agree though that this looks to me like todays version of the 02 pd cry of stop the FF majority and that the pd drop is to do with they themselves as much as anything.

I am suggesting there isn't one 'electorate' that needs to have two opinions at the same time as you seem to imply. There are supporters and neutrals who lean one way or another.

Surely the bump Bertie got was from FF leaners and don't knows. Whereas the PDs look to have lost their core support who never would go to FF.

i.e this core support may be very unhappy with the PD role in government and gone to FG as an actual possible alternative. Or even gone to 'don't knows' in the polls. To suggest that people have to support Bertie and the PDs for the polls to make sense us much too simplistic in my opinion. They are two different groupings of support.

Avns1s

At the end of the day, the PD's originated in FF and will eventually end up back there if they don't just 'evaporate' in the meantime. In essence, it doesn't matter what happens them, their only role in Irish politics is as a prop to FF. The PDs are an utter waste of space IMO.

Elmo

1) That new laws be enacted so that what Bertie did is now considered illegal, so no-one will do it again.

This means that what ever the Taoiseach did should become illegal and the "loop hole" should be closed, however a loop should still exist so that it would be acceptable to receive a certain amount of money after that "acceptable" amount of money the builder/business must declare it to the DIY commission.

The PD will then send a leaflet around to all builders/business men letting them know how they can get around the new law. I.E. if you give my wife/girlfriend 29,999 euro then we won't say anything however if you go over 30,000 euro then we will have to declare.

As soon as this is done the PDs can then say that the Taoiseach did nothing illegal in the first place (just something that isn't quite right) and that the new law now allows for an acceptable amount of money to be given but after that the Politican must declare it to the DIY commission outline what renovations where carried out.

Legislate Legislate Legislate

rikko234

Typical PDs, they are getting their usual dose of election nerves. We have seen all this before. Everything was "A okay" this last 5 years, but now the rules of survival have changed all that. On another note, came by way of this yesterday. It's a computer game where all the party leaders are trying to get to Bertie's Merc. It was fun, get it here www.catchbertie.uni.cc

rikko

E92

I have heard a rumour that the PDs will pull the plug on Bertie later on this evening. I dont know how true it is(it could be a complete lie so if I turn out to be wrong I'm saying sorry now), but we shall wait and see.

Voipjunkie

Too little too late the PDs had a chance to be the moral gaurdians of FF last year and they failed miserably.
If they do go then that is the end of Bertie unless FF win an overall majority so bertie better start crying now and hope he gets another bounce out of it.


I was speaking to a FF councillor yesterday and he said that they were getting it in the neck on the doorsteps and that things were not looking good for FF so if the PDs are getting that as well then it is a case of trying to put some distance between themselves and FF before they disappear.

But if the PDs walk out it is hard to see where they can go unless the FG/Lab/Greens are short a couple of seats and take them in as opposed to having to deal with SF

gandalf

Yep according to RTE news Herr Flick has been shown more info by a Sindo journalist and the PD's are going to walk tonight.

Reading between the lines I reckon they're suffering from loose sphincter syndrome as they are now realising they are in for an almighty spanking in the election.

E92

Voipjunkie wrote:

I was speaking to a FF councillor yesterday and he said that they were getting it in the neck on the doorsteps and that things were not looking good for FF so if the PDs are getting that as well then it is a case of trying to put some distance between themselves and FF before they disappear

Hmmm this is very interesting, a member of FF told me yesterday that and I quote"we're f***ed". After what happened the last time with the Bertiegate incident we all know that FFs support shot through the roof. This could be very naive of me, but why has it changed so much now? I've been told that the Bertiegate issue has being turning up on the doorsteps.(as I am not a FG member, I cant say how accurate that is, but if FF are saying it on the quiet, then something is going on)


I'm amazed with what the PDs areproposing to do, where does it leave them electorally? If they are ruling out Fianna Fáil, and we have ruled them out(well through all their opposition bashing, they closed door for themselves, all we had to do was lock the key and throw it away) , whats going to happen to their seats?

And where does it leave FF? If no other party wants them, what are they going to do?

It wouldnt surprise me if Feel and Fail start cuddling up to Labour and the Greens again(well they failed the last two times, but thats neither here nor there) or they might start cudling up with the Shinners too, I wouldnt rule that out either and the PDs will suddenly start singing the praises of Fine Gael(again) in the coming days.

Voipjunkie

E92 wrote:

Hmmm this is very interesting, a member of FF told me yesterday that and I quote"we're f***ed". After what happened the last time with the Bertiegate incident we all know that FFs support shot through the roof. This could be very naive of me, but why has it changed so much now? .

That is nearly word for word what I was told as well and O'Flynn coming out the other day to save his own skin confirms that it is not just local it is national.

What has probably changed is that some people gave bertie the benefit of the doubt the first time but it is just one thing after another.

It is interesting that McDowell was right behind Bertie on Monday and Tuesday but seems to be jumping ship only a few days later Personally I don't believe it is new information it is the response on the doorsteps remember alot of people voted PD to keep on eye on FFand they let them down. Liz O'Donnell said that the Taoiseachs affairs are coming up on the doorsteps and
it is a matter of public concern.


The PDs could go back in with FF just not under Bertie of course the problem for FF is that there is no one that is anti bertie or not associated with Bertie that could take over they are all in with him.
And Labour would find it easier to go in with FF with Bertie gone.

Its funny that Bertie will probably be gone before Blair

Lennoxschips

Don't throw it all away!

flogen

E92 wrote:

After what happened the last time with the Bertiegate incident we all know that FFs support shot through the roof. This could be very naive of me, but why has it changed so much now?

it's not that things have changed so much, it's just a completely different scenario.

In October, the scandal Bertie found himself at the centre of was in relation to "dig-outs" given to him while he was in need of money... people responded to that with sympathy and he got a boost.

This time there's talk of £30,000 being given to him to do up a house he didn't own, £50,000 of his own money being put aside for the same and all sorts of other caviats and odd happenings... it's hardly something people could feel sorry for him for, and perhaps there's an additional backlash now, in that he claimed he was in a really bad way financially, sorting out seperation issues, funds for his children etc. but was ready to put £50,000 into a house?

Remember, people responded in favour of Bertie in October because they felt his personal difficulty was being used against him. They didn't respond in favour of him just because they like Bertie and refuse to hear a bad word said against him (well, some did).

Our man in Havana

Lennoxschips wrote:

Don't throw it all away!

LOL! Those words have come to haunt them.

Voipjunkie

It appears that the PDs have stepped back from the brink for a while at least


http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0505/ahernb.html

InFront

According to Charlie Bird earlier, Liz (ahem:D) O'Donnell, Mary Harney and McDowell each favour pulling out of Government and (he says) it is quite likely that the PDs will pull out.
So it seems that if that were to be the case, there would be the increasingly likely scenario of Fine Gael leading the next Government... or if not, Brian Cowen.

My only concern if it does happen, is that FF will benefit from being distanced from the PDs.

E92

Well it just shows that the PDs are all talk and no action. So much for the 'watchdogs' of Fianna Fáil.

gandalf

TBH this is only a tactic by the PD's imho, they knew most of these facts already. They are desparate to save their hides at the moment and will do anything to keep their seats. I have a feeling that alot of frantic calls have been going to and forth in the background with FF.

If they do pull out then in my opinion FF are damned unless they ditch Bertie.

gilroyb

InFront wrote:

According to Charlie Bird earlier, Liz McManus, Mary Harney and McDowell each favour pulling out of Government and (he says) it is quite likely that the PDs will pull out.
So it seems that if that were to be the case, there would be the increasingly likely scenario of Fine Gael leading the next Government... or if not, Brian Cowen.

My only concern if it does happen, is that FF will benefit from being distanced from the PDs.

I'd say you can be certain that Liz McManus doesn't want to be in government with FF alright, luckily, she's not.

Dirk Gently

Voipjunkie wrote:

It appears that the PDs have stepped back from the brink for a while at least

It's just an exercise in trying to appear like they have some credibility. They know there's no where to walk to except walk the plank. It's FF or bust for the PD's and they know it. I think FF would rather a different option (Labour) given the choice of forming the next government. I can see them dissolving the PD's and merging with FG in the not too distant future. The whole "Mary Harney is a great girl after what she did for Dublin's smog problem vote" appears to finally have gone up in smoke. She will be more associated with the health service now which is a negative. Still think she was very brave to take it on though. Mc dowel does nothing to attract voters and I can't see many ordinary people giving them even a preference. I look forward to the PD's getting less speaking time than Joe Higgins (and fewer friends in the house) in the next Dail.

InFront

gilroyb wrote:

I'd say you can be certain that Liz McManus doesn't want to be in government with FF alright, luckily, she's not.

Haha, yes, I should have said Liz O Donnell. And she's one of my local TDs which makes it worse:D

gilroyb

You have to be impressed by the approach the PDs have taken. By making it look like they're planning to pull out, they can't be accused of simply reacting to whatever might come out in the Sunday papers tomorrow. If nothing huge comes out tomorrow then they can hang on for the full campaign, as this week just gone will be the main low point of this controversy.

If there really are the major rumours that seem to be flying around and one is actually printed by a paper who feels they can legally back them up, then the PDs will jump.

They should be very cautious of jumping too soon all the same, if these issues don't knock Bertie down he will start to rise out of the ashes of all this as the campaign goes on. Bertie's issues have dragged down the PDs already, if they jump now they may lose out on the upswing.

Villain

Can anyone explain why Michael Wall gave Celia Larkin £30,000 to refurbish a house 7 months before Michael Wall bought the house and how Bertie had managed to save £28,000 from a net Salary of £40,000 in a year?

mike65

Charlie Bird says they'll walk in the next 24 hours.

Mike.

Dave!

The RTÉ report is saying that the PDs have been given new information (or rather, "a chronology of events" leading to the purchase of Bertrude's house) and Charlie Bird seems to think that they're going to pull out of government within the next 24 hours.

Meanwhile, the latest Red C poll has Fianna Fáil up 2 points and FG down 1 :rolleyes: Labour up 1.

wow sierra

clown bag wrote:

It's just an exercise in trying to appear like they have some credibility. They know there's no where to walk to except walk the plank. It's FF or bust for the PD's and they know it. I think FF would rather a different option (Labour) given the choice of forming the next government. I can see them dissolving the PD's and merging with FG in the not too distant future. The whole "Mary Harney is a great girl after what she did for Dublin's smog problem vote" appears to finally have gone up in smoke. She will be more associated with the health service now which is a negative. Still think she was very brave to take it on though. Mc dowel does nothing to attract voters and I can't see many ordinary people giving them even a preference. I look forward to the PD's getting less speaking time than Joe Higgins (and fewer friends in the house) in the next Dail.

Agree with the above - hope they do walk now and let Fianna Fail get on with it. Whether out of Govenment or with Labour or the Greens etc. The only positive in the PD,s is Mary Harney and not just the smog - I think she is a great politician. McDowell is a serious liability.
One bit of disagreement - I find Joe Higgins amusing and good as a watchdog on the left but I think he gets quite enough speaking time and publicity at the moment and hope his colleage Claire Daly doesn't get elected

ballooba

Avns1s wrote:

At the end of the day, the PD's originated in FF and will eventually end up back there if they don't just 'evaporate' in the meantime.

Didn't PDs originate from FG?

brianthebard

Wiki says it was formed by ex-members of both FF and FG.

mike65

Jasus we have people here who can vote but are too young to know the genesis of the PDs! :eek:

Mike.

Voipjunkie

irish1 wrote:

Can anyone explain why Michael Wall gave Celia Larkin £30,000 to refurbish a house 7 months before Michael Wall bought the house and how Bertie had managed to save £28,000 from a net Salary of £40,000 in a year?

Thats only a conspiracy theory don't you remember

Voipjunkie

mike65 wrote:

Jasus we have people here who can vote but are too young to know the genesis of the PDs! :eek:

Mike.

That is scary makes me feel old

Dar

brianthebard wrote:

Wiki says it was formed by ex-members of both FF and FG.

IIRC it was ex-members of FF as well as one ex-member of FG who didnt even stay with them that long.

Villain

Voipjunkie wrote:

Thats only a conspiracy theory don't you remember

ROFL very good, but don't quote me again or we could end up discussing this somewhere else

Voipjunkie

Tomorrows Red C poll has FF up by 2 points maybe that is why the PDs have backed off for the moment there might be life in the old dog yet

Dirk Gently

ballooba wrote:

Didn't PDs originate from FG?

No, but if they merge with anyone should they become insignificant as a political party it most likely will be FG who they have most in common with.

E92

It also has Labour up 1(12%), FG down 1(26%), the PDs down 1(2%), the rest unchanged.The poll was taken between Monday and Wednesday, what will be really interesting is to see is what Sunday weeks poll will say, particularly when we see what the PDs say tomorrow. The poll also was taken before FF had 2 big policy u-turns(stamp duty and the uncosted pensions plan), before Noel O'Fynnn said what he said too and before there were these new revalations about the affair(though that could boost Feel and Fails support). Even if the PDs decide to stay, the damage will already have been done to the Government I think. Its hardly good for Feel and Fail when they're hearing that the party they have been working with for so long decides to either ditch them or at the very least give them a scare. Interesting times lie ahead.

Dave!

Yeah next week's poll should be VERY interesting! Still, I'm surprised that this latest poll has them up. Have the Irish public never heard of the expression, "there's no smoke without fire"? Jeez, they probably think everyone's innocent til proven guilty :rolleyes:

The opposition have COMPLETELY avoided talking about the payments after what happened last time. Would it be the media attacking Bertie over this, that has FF's support up? Or Bertie's innate likeability?

Or maybe people just believe his story?

Interesting.

patzer117

DaveMcG wrote:

The opposition have COMPLETELY avoided talking about the payments after what happened last time. Would it be the media attacking Bertie over this, that has FF's support up? Or Bertie's innate likeability?

Yeah, Pat and Enda every 5 minutes saying "I'm not going to comment on Bertie's Finances...

I repeat I'm not going to comment on Bertie's Finances.

It's up to the electorate to decide about his credibility and integrity. I'm not going to comment on them"

That's Completely avoiding talking about it? They're playing it for all it's worth, don't be so naive

Dave!

patzer117 wrote:

Yeah, Pat and Enda every 5 minutes saying "I'm not going to comment on Bertie's Finances...

I repeat I'm not going to comment on Bertie's Finances.

It's up to the electorate to decide about his credibility and integrity. I'm not going to comment on them"

That's Completely avoiding talking about it? They're playing it for all it's worth, don't be so naive

I'm not being naive. They're making the odd comment, but for the most part it's "it's up to the electorate to decide, now I think we should talk about policies....."

The opposition is beating the government on policy, this finances controversy could go either way so they're not talking about it and definitely not putting pressure on him over it. It's the various media outlets that are talking about this absolutely non-stop.

patzer117

I don't quite agree, but still. I can't wait for the debates, then we'll have real policy vs. policy. if they go ahead that is

Voipjunkie

DaveMcG wrote:

Yeah next week's poll should be VERY interesting! Still, I'm surprised that this latest poll has them up. Have the Irish public never heard of the expression, "there's no smoke without fire"? Jeez, they probably think everyone's innocent til proven guilty :rolleyes:

The opposition have COMPLETELY avoided talking about the payments after what happened last time. Would it be the media attacking Bertie over this, that has FF's support up? Or Bertie's innate likeability?

Or maybe people just believe his story?

Interesting.

Not dismissing the Poll but it is margin of error stuff

Also it was taken before VB tackled Bertie which seems to have given this real legs in the last day or so.
PJ standing in the shadows trying to shut VB up and your man trying to grab the microphone from him just smacked of the Haughey years to me and the media seem to smell blood now.

Dave!

Wasn't aware there was gonna be debates! No dates set, I gather. Will it be all the leaders head to head or what? Like America?!

Voipjunkie wrote:

Not dismissing the Poll but it is margin of error stuff

Also it was taken before VB tackled Bertie which seems to have given this real legs in the last day or so.

Yeah I agree. I'd say that VB thing will stick, and depending on what the PD's have to say tomorrow, that could be more points gone.

The_Minister

gandalf wrote:

they knew most of these facts already.

Proof?