How good is your matial art?

Pride Fighter

I just thought I would start a reasonable and sensible debate on the virtues of various martial systems. Is there clinch work in Tae Kwon Do? Is there grappling in Karate? Is there stand-up in Ju Jitsu? How good is cross-training? What do people think the most well rounded martial art is. In debating lets all be sensible. I hope it does not escalate into a slagging match.

pma-ire

if you look at arts on there own and how they are offically presented then TKD is a striking art as is Karate. they both have a "style" of fighting which is how they want to be represented and so they don't have grappling or clinch work. as this would mean that they would look too much like judo or ju jitsu etc.

now if you wanted to have a more rounded approach to your sport fighting then cross-training is the way to go in some place that teaches multi range like mma. but if you want to learn multi ranges for self defence then you don't have to go join up with clubs or grade in judo or whatever. casual cross training sessions with open minded folks when you can exchange skills and ideas is the biz!

then taking this knowledge back into your base art and applying it to your requirements is the next step.

Jimkel

The thing about asking if there is Grappling in karate is, Karate is a loose term.
you can split Karate into 6 groups,(Altough there are a hell of a lot more!)

1: Kenpo- An art mixing Jui Jutsu, Kung Fu and TKD, tought in a Karate like Syllibus but very little to do with Japanese karate, in fact the word "Karate" in "Kenpo Karate" means Tang hand, or China hand, as opposed to "Empty hand". So yes there is grappling and throws as well as stand up. Kind of like Krav Maga in a horse stance.

2:JKA Shotokan - Karate developed from Gichen Funikoshi's syllibus, and Evolved by the JKA and Funikoshis Karate ambassadors including associations such as the USKF (Ireland)and the KUGB(UK). There was over 250 Throws in the syllibus, Now if you want to learn the secrets of the art you gotta be a high grade and go to Japans JKA HQ and maybe they will teach you a Throw or 2.

3:Sport Karate and variations of Shotokan - Such as Wado ryu and the worlds various modern karate styles like US Sport Karate, all very simular with emphasis on different aspects such as speed or power, Like TKD with an emphasis on point scoring.

4: Traditional Okinowan te, Still alive in Okinowa. Probably the styles most true to Karate's roots some featuring hundreds of throws, But little known worldwide.

5: Kyokoshinkai - Tough hard stand up karate developed by a Korean student of Funikoshi, Founder of Shotokan. Comparable to Thai boxing. No real Grappling involved. Sometimes called Knockdown Karate.

6: "Soft/Hard" Karate - Such as Shotokai which shun fighting competitions in favour of spiritual development, some styles resemble Tai Chi, slow fluid movements with sudden fast dynamic movements.

And there is so many others which differ greatly, some even falling under the same name, but incorperating different elements of fighting depending on the association, Lineage, Theme, Purpose, and whereabouts.

So how good is karate? It depends what you mean by the term "Karate". Like the term "Kung Fu" it is a term reffering to hundreds of martial arts worldwide some simular some very, very different .

dlofnep

As far as "single" arts go, I would say Combat Sambo is probably the most well rounded. It covers all ranges and is the base for the greatest fighter in the world.

Logically, cross-training multiple arts will result in more competence in all-round fighting.

Jimkel

dlofnep wrote:

As far as "single" arts go, I would say Combat Sambo is probably the most well rounded. It covers all ranges and is the base for the greatest fighter in the world.

Logically, cross-training multiple arts will result in more competence in all-round fighting.

You could say the same about Hapkido, Wing Chun, some schools of Jui Jutsu, MMA and many schools of kung fu etc. Covering all bases doesnt mean its gonna be the basis of the greatest fighter in the world

Andy Hugg was a great fighter, and he only needed a few basis! the axe kick, Round house kicks and the fists.

Jimkel

Pride Fighter wrote:

How good is your martial art?

Thats like asking "how long is a peice of rope?"

I agree with Dlofnep, cross trainings the way to go! Find some styles you love and work hard at them, develop a way that suits you.

dlofnep

Jimkel wrote:

You could say the same about Hapkido, Wing Chun, some schools of Jui Jutsu, MMA and many schools of kung fu etc. Covering all bases doesnt mean its gonna be the basis of the greatest fighter in the world

MMA isn't a single art, it's a training concept - with a mix of arts. Combat Sambo IS the base of the greatest fighter in the world, Fedor Emelianenko. It's not under dispute.

Jimkel wrote:

Andy Hugg was a great fighter, and he only needed a few basis! the axe kick, Round house kicks and the fists.

Andy Hug was a great Kyokushin fighter, but he wasn't rounded in all areas. He was a good stand-up fighter, that's about the extent of it.

Jimkel

dlofnep wrote:

Combat Sambo IS the base of the greatest fighter in the world, Fedor Emelianenko, It's not under dispute. QUOTE]


Yes it is.....That blind certainty of whos the greatest fighter in the world is not really fitting in a martial artist in my opinion. Probably the greatest fighter in the world has never even been in a fight, Or more likely that the greatest fighter in the world is not famous but lives in the Back ass of nowhere in some far away land and he'll never be on Wiki, A person doesnt have to be famous to be the greatest fighter in the world ya know...Think about it:D

Nothingcompares

Jimkel wrote:

dlofnep wrote:

Combat Sambo IS the base of the greatest fighter in the world, Fedor Emelianenko, It's not under dispute. QUOTE]


Yes it is.....That blind certainty of whos the greatest fighter in the world is not really fitting in a martial artist in my opinion. Probably the greatest fighter in the world has never even been in a fight, Or more likely that the greatest fighter in the world is not famous but lives in the Back ass of nowhere in some far away land and he'll never be on Wiki, A person doesnt have to be famous to be the greatest fighter in the world ya know...Think about it:D

that's stupid. if you still subscribe to the idea of some buddist monk living on some inaccessible cliff top practising kata being the "best fighter" in the world, you have my sympathy.

Jimkel

I didnt say that i just said that the greatest fighter in the World may very well be relatevly unknown as of yet. Nothing you read too much into my comment.

buck65

I know that guy, he's a legend.

Nothingcompares

Jimkel wrote:

I didnt say that i just said that the greatest fighter in the World may very well be relatevly unknown as of yet.

why? is he 16? does he live somewhere where there is no media?

Jimkel

Nothingcompares wrote:

why? is he 16? does he live somewhere where there is no media?

Im just saying its foolish to say things like, THIS guy is the greatest fighter in the world and thats that. There is always some one better then you no matter how good you are.

mikeruurds

Fedor kicks ass. He is undoubtedly the greatest fighter in the limelight at the moment.

His last fight with Bodogfight was great

Sambo is well rounded with mastery of the ground (leg locks etc.), the clinch and striking.

Roper

Jimkel wrote:

There was over 250 Throws in the syllibus, Now if you want to learn the secrets of the art you gotta be a high grade and go to Japans JKA HQ and maybe they will teach you a Throw or 2.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What is that art? The Stonecutters? Maybe it just sucks at throws and they're trying to tell you it doesn't by saying "shhh, its a secret!

Im just saying its foolish to say things like, THIS guy is the greatest fighter in the world and thats that. There is always some one better then you no matter how good you are.

I would agree but then again Fedor has proven himself the best and Captain Mysterious from the back of beyond hasn't, so its a bit difficult to say that he's the best ever isn't it?

cowzerp

Lets all agree that whatever i do is the best!!

mikeruurds

I reckon we should nominate that someone here go over to mother Russia to tell Fedor that he's a pussy and can't punch his way out of a wet paper bag.

I'm sure that person will be back to testify that he is the best fighter they've ever met... medivac out of Belarus in full body plaster

dlofnep

Jimkel wrote:

Yes it is.....That blind certainty of whos the greatest fighter in the world is not really fitting in a martial artist in my opinion. Probably the greatest fighter in the world has never even been in a fight, Or more likely that the greatest fighter in the world is not famous but lives in the Back ass of nowhere in some far away land and he'll never be on Wiki, A person doesnt have to be famous to be the greatest fighter in the world ya know...Think about it:D

Blind? Heh. Fedor has proven himself time and time again against some of the best fighters in the world. He spends every day training and sparring, learning how to beat people who they themselves have dedicated their life to being as good a fighter as they can be humanly possible - while your Mystery X man is probably smoking a pipe in some rainforest learning how to be one with nature.

Fedor has PROVEN that he is the greatest fighter in the world. What has Mr. X proven?

Now, I have no doubt - that there MAY be someone out there, who IF they put in years of training COULD be a greater fighter than Fedor is right now - But that's here nor there, because nobody has fit that description as of yet. I look at today's heavyweight boxing champions and k-1's elite kickboxers, but none of them could beat Fedor on their best day IMO.

O'Leprosy

Forget about Pride, UFC, K1 etc.

dlofnep

lol

columok

I dunno why all you BBJ heads are saying that Fador is the best it is clearly some guy on a remote mountainside who is so tough he doesn't even need sparrring he just does katas all day long.

stupid bbj heads.

mikeruurds

Yeah... if you can beat the ****e out of that cool crisp mountain air then God only knows the type of damage you could inflict against a non-compliant assailant with murderous intentions.

Who knew becoming a hermit could make you teh d34dly.

To be honest, if there is anyone better at fighting than Fedor then we would have seen him by now. I'd say Fedor pulls in 6 figure fight fees. Anyone fighting for the cash would have stepped up. Unless of course it's against the killer monk's principles to fight for profit. Your average Joe who thinks himself a monster in the ring would jump at the opportunity to make some money.

cowzerp

Back on topic-i believe boxing is really brilliant for stand up fighting and becoming more prevalent in mma these days-bjj for ground fighting and judo for takedowns-add in kyokusin or thai kicks and there you go-thats a good range of fighting skills..

mikeruurds

cowzerp wrote:

Back on topic-i believe boxing is really brilliant for stand up fighting and becoming more prevalent in mma these days-bjj for ground fighting and judo for takedowns-add in kyokusin or thai kicks and there you go-thats a good range of fighting skills..

Can't argue with that

Nothingcompares

Jimkel wrote:

Im just saying its foolish to say things like, THIS guy is the greatest fighter in the world and thats that. There is always some one better then you no matter how good you are.

Roper wrote:

I would agree but then again Fedor has proven himself the best and Captain Mysterious from the back of beyond hasn't, so its a bit difficult to say that he's the best ever isn't it?

So not only is there somebody out there we've never heard of better than Fedor, there is someone else we've never heard of better than Mystery Guy 1, and someone else better than Mystery Guy 2, and someone better than Mystery guy infinity, then someone better than Mystery Guy infinity +1.

I've no doubt that someone who trains in all three ranges since they were an infant will become better than Fedor in the no so distant future, but right now, on this planet, he's the indisputable open weight champion. I can't wait for the UFC to come up with guy who is their indisputable best (hopefully they can do it before Fedor retires) so Fedor can whip his ass. Then I can retire from the internet knowing my work here is done.

Best Martial Art? Either Judo, BJJ or boxing/thai boxing. Judo has it merits because it's a solid grappling style with elements from both stand up and ground fighting. But BJJ produces athletes better at finishing opponents (submissions). But you can't underestimate the significance of a good right hook so boxing is also a genuine contender. Thai also needs to be considered because it also produces good punches but also people that can deal out serious kicks and more importantly, eat up other peoples kicks.

Kenpo can go fo.

Khannie

Nothingcompares wrote:

Then I can retire from the internet knowing my work here is done.

HAHAHA.

I'm afraid I have nothing constructive to add to the thread. I'm surprised (obviously through lack of knowledge, though I have read about Sambo) that it is rated above MMA (or does everyone consider it a mix rather than its own art? I consider it to be its own art at this stage. Anyone who goes telling me what the first M stands for gets a kick in the head. Thank you. Come again.).

Nothingcompares wrote:

Thai also needs to be considered because it also produces good punches but also people that can deal out serious kicks and more importantly, eat up other peoples kicks.

Let's not forget the knee and elbow skill it gives while in close range standup combat. I think that's where a lot of the real damage / finishing is done. Knee to the face = game over.

Nothingcompares wrote:

Kenpo can go fo.

More lols.

dlofnep

Khannie wrote:

HAHAHA.

I'm afraid I have nothing constructive to add to the thread. I'm surprised (obviously through lack of knowledge, though I have read about Sambo) that it is rated above MMA (or does everyone consider it a mix rather than its own art? I consider it to be its own art at this stage. Anyone who goes telling me what the first M stands for gets a kick in the head. Thank you. Come again.).

MMA is not a single martial art, it's a hybrid of martial arts. If we're talking about single arts, Sambo is right up there.. It covers throws with the attention of detail of throws from judo, but also focuses alot more on groundwork than judokas. It's what you could say, the medium between judo & bjj.

Combat Sambo then is those takedowns and groundwork, combined with kickboxing. As far as single arts go, I don't think any are more rounded.

As far as MMA goes, it's the creme of the crop - but it's really training methods opposed to a style. Some schools might adopt boxing and judo, other might adopt wrestling, muay thai and bjj.. So you can see, there is no consistency - so you can't really label MMA as a single art, more of a hybrid of arts.

Nothingcompares

Just to veer off temporarily again, if I said Tiger woods was the best golfer on the planet would some one say there is probably a little old man in china that's much better?

my martial art (judo) is deadly.

JohnMc1

Jimkel wrote:

5: Kyokoshinkai - Tough hard stand up karate developed by a Korean student of Funikoshi, Founder of Shotokan. Comparable to Thai boxing. No real Grappling involved. Sometimes called Knockdown Karate.

I hate to seem to be looking to argue with you here. You are correct in your analysis of Kyokushin. Just wanted to point out Kyokushin's founders name is Mas [Masutatsu to be exact] Oyama.

dlofnep

Nothingcompares wrote:

Just to veer off temporarily again, if I said Tiger woods was the best golfer on the planet would some one say there is probably a little old man in china that's much better?

Great question!

Nothingcompares wrote:

my martial art (judo) is deadly.

Correct!

Marathon Man

my martial art (judo) is deadly.[Nothingcompares]

Is'nt judo a sport?

dlofnep

Marathon Man wrote:

Is'nt judo a sport?

A deadly sport, full of romance, desire and kickass moves.

p to the e

i wholeheartedly agree that mixing things up is the best method of traing. my old trainer (7th dan TKD instructor) once said "it's better to master one martial art than to be good at several". this was my argument for a long time when up against such debates as these until i graduallly did see the certain impracticalities of such sayings.

when i thought of it i was confident in my striking and in my kicks but i didn't have a clue what to do when someone came in close or was taken to the ground. so a whole world opened up when i took up BJJ. it even used muscles i never thought i needed (no jokes please). i plan to take up aikido or some sort of wrestling (recommendations welcome) in the near future to further widen my scope.

so thats my little tit bit of info. i believe a truly good fighter needs to be well trained in different fields (ground, grappling, striking etc.) whereas a truly good martial artist needs to stick to his one true calling!

conor rowan

why is it when a discussion comes up about the "best martial art", people invariably end up discussing the best fighter?

in each fight a given fighter will have a physical/mental/condition edge over the other fighter (albeit often a very slight one).
unless you can somehow raise a family of octuplets, train each of them in a different martial art for yrs, release all 8 of them into a cage in a fight to the death and then determine which is the most effective.
as for saying that there's joe nobody from ballymacbaconandcabbage who could be the best fighter in the world but noone knows about him. this is a fair point as fighting is something which humans have done the whole way through history and therefore happens all over the world in every town in the world (this is how the different martial arts like languauges developed independantly all over the world and each martial art has its own different dialects /styles). There could be some really good brawler in the badass streets of the badlands who with a little training could be the best in the world, but unlike organised sports fighting doesnt happen in set places with set rules (eg 18 hole golf on a golf course ) so he wont get spotted or given media attention-in fact its more likely he'll get arrested.

the only mature way to settle this is to go back and play street fighter II and see which fighter is the easiest to win with-clearly energy balls are the way forward:D

as for my opinion, bjj for ground after that its a case of horses for courses,each art has its own merits but training in one at least one art for ground,clinch and strikes is the way to go

Roper

Side note, didn't fedor do judo?

Pride Fighter

Jimkel wrote:

Thats like asking "how long is a peice of rope?"

I agree with Dlofnep, cross trainings the way to go! Find some styles you love and work hard at them, develop a way that suits you.

Well you can tell how long a piece of rope is with measuring tape. I want people to use the measuring tape of their mind to ask themselves how good is the particular style they train in and what it lacks. And also for people to state the benefits of cross training etc.

Dermot Nolan

p to the e wrote:

i plan to take up aikido or some sort of wrestling (recommendations welcome) in the near future to further widen my scope.

Wrestling or judo would improve your clinch range a lot better than aikido.

columok

Standup: Boxing, thai, savate, full contack kickboxing

Clinch: Sambo, Judo, Wrestling

Ground: Wrestling, Sambo, BJJ, Judo

Khannie

conor rowan wrote:

the only mature way to settle this is to go back and play street fighter II and see which fighter is the easiest to win with-clearly energy balls are the way forward:D

Sonic boom tbh.

I have the trophy to prove it.

Pride Fighter

Aikido sucks. You know you are doing a good martial art when the high level instructors are in good shape. Aikido black belts are the most overweight I have ever seen. When your instructor has 4 decades experience and is fitter than 20 year olds you know your onto a winner.

Pride Fighter

P.S. look at how overweight Seagal is

TheDread Pirate

I would regard MMA as a single martial art as there are now many people who train exclusively in MMA. I would agree that many clubs would focus on different aspects of it such as striking or groundwork but i believe that largely due to the strengths of the coaches in particular clubs. But this is true of most clubs for example a Karate club might focus more on kata than sparring.

dlofnep

Roper wrote:

Side note, didn't fedor do judo?

Yes, both sambo & judo. In Russia, they are very much intertwined.

Nothingcompares

In Russia, sambo and judo do you.

johnathan woss

How do bjj and sambo groundfighting differ lads ?

dlofnep

johnathan woss wrote:

How do bjj and sambo groundfighting differ lads ?

That would probably vary from school to school.. Sambo in general spends more time on leglocks and it's ground game appears to be a good set of basics, while BJJ appears to be a little more complex, but doesn't dedicate the same time to throwing as sambo. The competition rules differ too.

Sambo I guess is the perfect blend between bjj and judo.

columok

In Russia, sambo and judo do you.

lol

Jimkel

Nothingcompares wrote:

So not only is there somebody out there we've never heard of better than Fedor, there is someone else we've never heard of better than Mystery Guy 1, and someone else better than Mystery Guy 2, and someone better than Mystery guy infinity, then someone better than Mystery Guy infinity +1.........

Let me try and simplify it. Take 3 fighters, lets say Fighter A, B and C

A beat B
B beat C
yet C beat A even though fighter B who lost to A beat C...

Its a circle, not about someone being infinately better.

Understand, Its all about the match up, there is no "Greatest" fighter in the world, Its about the fight and the two contenders. Of course there are better fighters then others and of course there are people who are among the greatest fighterS in the world. but its not a black and white world, and some fighter who is not as succesful as Fedor Emelianenko could have just what it takes to beat him, he might have the skills that find the chink in fedors armour even tough fedor can beat guys who beat him. ITS SIMPLE.

See your problem is attaching a SPORTING FAD like UFC to your Martial arts training and letting that dictate your opinions. IF FEDER came out tommorow and said I GOT ALL MY SKILL FROM KENPO KARATE you would be on here telling everyone how great you think kenpo is! Its as simple as that. As long as you let media sensations drive your opinion you cannot develop your "art" only your "sport"

Jimkel

dlofnep wrote:

Andy Hug was a great Kyokushin fighter, but he wasn't rounded in all areas. He was a good stand-up fighter, that's about the extent of it.

How can you be certain he couldnt of beaten Fedor??
Or Mike tyson in his hayday couldnt beat fedor as he is now??

its about the man not the style .

So how do you know that somewhere in the world of Thai boxing, Shotokan, Judo, TKD, Kyokoshin, even Sumo for gods sake there isnt a guy who can right now, kick Fedors ass, how do you know, have you seen Fedor fight everyone in the world?? There are other fighting sensations then the UFC or K1 guys, There are right now guys who have no interest in these tournements winning other martial arts tournements all over the world. Are they not the greatest fighters in the world also? or is your mind so small that the UFC represents every fighters dream and that the man at the top of the UFC is the best in the world. For gods sake man there are probably Rugby players out there who could beat the crap out of Most UFC heavyweights. Wise up man open your eyes to a world populated by more then 6 Billion people!! "its not under dispute" dont make me laugh!

I respect Fedor and anyone that tough, tougher then ill ever be thats for sure, and im sorry to burst your UFC bubble but ya dont gotta be on mainstream American TV to be one tough Bstrd

Jimkel

Nothingcompares wrote:

that's stupid. if you still subscribe to the idea of some buddist monk living on some inaccessible cliff top practising kata being the "best fighter" in the world, you have my sympathy.

Huh?? when did I say that??? It seems like your hearing what you want to hear pal

Roper

Jimkel wrote:

How can you be certain he couldnt of beaten Fedor??
Or Mike tyson in his hayday couldnt beat fedor as he is now??

its about the man not the style .

So how do you know that somewhere in the world of Thai boxing, Shotokan, Judo, TKD, Kyokoshin, even Sumo for gods sake there isnt a guy who can right now, kick Fedors ass, how do you know, have you seen Fedor fight everyone in the world?? There are other fighting sensations then the UFC or K1 guys, There are right now guys who have no interest in these tournements winning other martial arts tournements all over the world. Are they not the greatest fighters in the world also? or is your mind so small that the UFC represents every fighters dream and that the man at the top of the UFC is the best in the world. For gods sake man there are probably Rugby players out there who could beat the crap out of Most UFC heavyweights. Wise up man open your eyes to a world populated by more then 6 Billion people!! "its not under dispute" dont make me laugh!

I respect Fedor and anyone that tough, tougher then ill ever be thats for sure, and im sorry to burst your UFC bubble but ya dont gotta be on mainstream American TV to be one tough Bstrd

I'm sure there are really, really great guys kicking ass in Shotokan tournaments, in a limited ruleset who would be great athletes etc. Same with TKD, Muay Thai, the list goes on.

However, fighter wise, people are talking about fighters who are competing in the most limited ruleset, with the cream of fighters. That's Pride at the moment. Ergo, Pride Heavyweight champion=best fighter at the moment.

As for your Rugby comment, thats just nonsense. Imagine if I said to the All Blacks coach, hey your team are pretty good but I'm sure theres a guy out there doing sumo wrestling who can outrun, outtackle, outplay everyone on your team. Stick to the point. I respect you think Shotokan kratty is the mutts nuts but if so, why aren't they fighting in the BIG BIG money promotions if they can kick everyone's ass? "Nosir, I believe I'll stick to the parish hall openstyle tournament for now, the 2 million dollars I'd get for fighting in Japan really doesn't mean anything to me". Come off it mate.