Government Broadband Tender to be announced in morning

damien

But sssh, not allowed to talk about it til then. More details to follow.

Maybe we can all go along to Government buildings in the morning and clap and stuff?

watty

Is this the "official" announcement of the official start tender process or what?

thebman

Its so Fianna Fail candidates can promise that they will solve the broadband crisis (by saying look we have a plan, what do the opposition have) when they are going door to door trying to get votes.

govinda

Press release is there now:

http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Dempsey+Unveils+New+National+Broadband+Scheme.htm

I know I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised at their bravery in supplementing the press release with an *18MB* PDF coverage map for download ;-)

watty

The National Broadband Scheme is technology neutral but Service Providers must ensure that the option they choose complies with the speed, capacity and latency requirements. The winning Service Provider or Service Providers will be engaged for a period of 5 years and will be required to provide an operational service as soon as possible. A claw back clause will also be put in place to ensure any unanticipated profits from the service are shared between the exchequer and the Service Provider(s).

Given the neutrality of the scheme, it is expected that the winning Service Provider, or perhaps a consortium of Service Providers, will use a combination of several technologies to meet the scheme’s requirements.

That paragraph doesn't look so bad?

watty

people on eircom's list of "to be enabled exchanges" are excluded from the scheme up to 4.5km radius.
(Many Pink circles)
On Map:
Red = Currently served
Pink = Areas that are not currently served but are planned to be commercially served in the near future
Pale Green = The remaining areas that can be addresses by the NBS.

If eircom does not get it, their big list of "to be enabled exchanges" is limiting the competition. If eircom do get it can they change their mind and say, "well we are enabling it , but not in the NEAR future"?

damien

This whole paragraph is good. Upload could be better but at least it's not a 512k download.

The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month and the service must support Virtual Private Networks (VPN) for businesses and VoIP applications and devices for home business purposes. Latency must be sufficient in order to allow standard applications such as VoIP and online gaming to be run without significant degradation of service from an end user perspective.

This is also important:

Importantly the price that people will pay for service under the National Broadband Scheme will be no greater than the average price paid by consumers using similar technologies in areas that currently have access to Broadband,” said Minister Dempsey.

All well and good in a press release though but will it have loopholes for things like "sure Satellite is broadband and this isn't as expensive as satellite".

Still, a very welcome move.

Zoney

Talk about a suspect map! To keep it simple - yeah right most of Donegal can currently get broadband (red, not even pink). Cloud cuckoo land...

viking

Attached is a more bandwidth friendly version of the map.

damien

After looking at the map then it's bollox. That map like everything else that comes from Dempsey is a fabrication. I still think these maps are more accurate.

thebman

According to their map, my parents house is covered by Last Mile (only wireless operator in area) but we had them out and we can't get LOS to recieve the service.

Yet our area is listed as covered on that map. I can only assume there are 100's more in this situation be it trees or buildings blocking reception.

damien

Tender on eTender site: http://etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=MAY082913

damien

Release on this: http://lists.ie/pipermail/media/2007/000074.html

watty

Good clear analysis Damien that is similar to what I think too. However if this actually happens it is a step forward, though not as good as the FF spin suggests.

damien

Watty, indeed it is a step forward but the issue is whether it will be the first and last step forward too with the Government wiping their hands and saying they're done, everyone else can fend for themselves. The tender for broadband for all, as it was billed is half-arsed but then there's nothing new there.

Hacketry

That map looks like someone's got an AA map of Ireland, a big fat red marker, and some red paint on a sponge yoke to dab with like on those cheap-ass DIY shows on the tele.

And who says civil servants don't work hard I ask you?:D



Meedja coverage here:
http://www.enn.ie/frontpage/news-10050554.html

thebman

Actually since eircom announced all those other exchanges like my local one became viable then doesn't that suggest that they had some idea that the government would exclude any area that was labelled soon to be enabled from the tender.

Announcing all those exchanges would soon be enabled keeps competition out of those areas from the tender as the government excludes them from the tender.

RuggieBear

Hacketry wrote:

That map looks like someone's got an AA map of Ireland, a big fat red marker, and some red paint on a sponge yoke to dab with like on those cheap-ass DIY shows on the tele.

And who says civil servants don't work hard I ask you?:D



Meedja coverage here:
http://www.enn.ie/frontpage/news-10050554.html

that map was made by a outside consultant...esri ireland. shocking considering they are a GIS company. When i taught this stuff in college i would have failed students if they had presented a map like that to me.

thebman

RuggieBear wrote:

that map was made by a outside consultant...esri ireland. shocking considering they are a GIS company. When i taught this stuff in college i would have failed students if they had presented a map like that to me.

I don't get why they didn't just make the red spotches have like 50% opacity so you could see which areas they are actually covering.

oscarBravo

Considering the amount of time I spent compiling coverage information for the Department last August, I'm seriously pissed to see areas on that map marked as not covered when we have pretty much blanket coverage in them.

Grumpy phone call to the DCMNR in the morning...

RuggieBear

brim4brim wrote:

I don't get why they didn't just make the red spotches have like 50% opacity so you could see which areas they are actually covering.

That and the fact it is 18mb is beyond a joke to me. i actually make maps for the dept. Just in another section.

damien

brim4brim wrote:

Actually since eircom announced all those other exchanges like my local one became viable then doesn't that suggest that they had some idea that the government would exclude any area that was labelled soon to be enabled from the tender.

That's exactly what it suggests. Odd that, no?

damien

RuggieBear wrote:

That and the fact it is 18mb is beyond a joke to me. i actually make maps for the dept. Just in another section.

Want to make a proper map for us?

RuggieBear

damien.m wrote:

Want to make a proper map for us?

well i can try. need access to the data.

damien

RuggieBear wrote:

well i can try. need access to the data.

I shall PM you now.

lucernarian

Noel Dempsey wrote:

Today’s launch is great news for broadband hungry consumers in rural areas.

The sheer cheek of him. It was a year or two ago when demand was the excuse and he refused to even adknowledge the problems rural areas had.

Sure, bebo flashboxes have helped the broadband numbers but such a statement is an insult to the people who have waited for broadband for 5 years for their work and business. What a chancer.

Otherwise, the commitment to VoIP and VPN is very welcome indeed. We'll wait and see, but what other choice do the thousands of awaiting customers have?

thegills

128k upload isn't really great for gaming or VPN is it?
The map shows Wexford to be intirely covered but we all know that's not true.

damien

Can 1M up and 128k down reach to 4.5KM anyway?

Also re:map, I guess someone will have to make a new non-bull map but if we were to publish it we'd probably have to pay a lot of money to the OSI monopoly. Shame it can't be us giving monopoly money to them instead.

oscarBravo

The problem is, the map forms the basis for the tender. It's not just misinformation, it's seriously problematic for those of us who will have a subsidised competitor parachuted into areas where we're already offering service, thankyouverymuch.

smellslikeshoes

thegills wrote:

128k upload isn't really great for gaming or VPN is it?
The map shows Wexford to be intirely covered but we all know that's not true.

Noticed that too. Wexford is a prime example of the obvious problem with that map Wireless L.O.S.
The whole of Co.Wexford is covered by Permanet but because of Wexford's landscape and the large distance between their transmitters probably much less than half of people who are in the coverage circles would be able to get it.Myself being one of them

damien

smellslikeshoes wrote:

The whole of Co.Wexford is covered by Permanet but because of Wexford's landscape and the large distance between their transmitters probably much less than half of people who are in the coverage circles would be able to get it.

Which is the complete opposite to what OscarBravo is on about above. So it seems for Wexford, because of the generous coverage maps from Permanet, there will not be a subsidised service or any service to many blackspots but for areas where WestNet covers, the Government are subsidising a player to come in.

That's all kinds of fckedupness.

jwt

This has to be the stupidest map I've seen in a long time. Totally unusable once you zoom in a bit. All it needs is a couple of "Here be dragons".

How exactly is anyone supposed to use that as part of a legal tender.

You could promise the moon in the tender response and if ever challeged just show that piece of artistry.

John

EDIT


Bastardising a Blackadder Quote

It's stupid....It's STUPID! It's stupider than "Stupid Jack" McStupid the winner of last year's "Mr Stupidman" competition.

jwt

And if Minister Dempsey turns up on your door looking for a vote you could quote the following Blackadder classic.

"You wouldn't know a cunning plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on the table in front of you singing "cunning plans are here again."

John

damien

oscarBravo wrote:

it's seriously problematic for those of us who will have a subsidised competitor parachuted into areas where we're already offering service, thankyouverymuch.

Competition Authority!

Blaster99

How exactly does one approach 100% coverage in a vendor neutral way? It doesn't strike me as being trivial or even possible. There's only one ISP that has an actual or potential presence across the country and that's eircom. If you/we want true 100% coverage, then eircom are the only ones who can provide it. If on the other hand we want to use some arbitrary map and fill blanks on it, then the current approach is great and not all that different from the GBS, which achieved sod all in the greater scheme of things.

jbkenn

From the Minister's speech

The knowledge worker cannot be confined by geographic location and should be free to live and work outside of the cities and towns. Our future should require networks to follow the knowledge worker rather than the other way around,” Minister Dempsey said speaking at today’s launch.

Could'nt agree with you more Minister, perhaps, if you could take time out from your busy canvassing schedule, you might enquire from the Revenue Commissioners why the opportunity for staff to telework from their Limerick offices was confined solely to those staff members who could avail of Eircom wired broadband, and, denied to those living in rural areas, not enabled by Eircom, but enabled by wireless operators. (see red blobs on your map)

As a result of this little stroke of genius, we have the ludicrous situation of rural resident staff, with a daily roundtrip commute of 80Km forced to continue commuting, while urban resident staff with a roundtrip commute of 5Km, are able to telework. (probably to free up space on the Raheen bus for other commuters?)

You could also enquire from our premier industrial developement agency why they insisted on having ISDN lines from Eircom installed in their new offices in a fibre enabled building connected to the Limerick MAN and serviced by 2 alternative operators (why use 21st century technology, when you can use tried and trusted 20th century crap)

The final product that consumers will receive from the NBS will be an always on service of at least 1Mbit/s down and 128kbits/s up. The minimum download capacity per connection will be 10 gigabits per month

Let me see now, that spec sounds familiar?? quick web search... yes indeed,
http://www.eircom.ie/cgi-bin/bvsm/bveircom/store/productDetails.jsp?store=Res&shopCategory=retrieveBBHomeStarter&Title=eircom%20broadband%20home%20starter&storeChanId=536896472&site=Res&chanId=536896472&ProductID=12492&BV_SessionID=@@@@1946619098.1178147598@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceaddkleeeijgcefeceiedffndffg.0
why Minister, you just described the Eircom Broadband Home Starter package, phew, good job you did'nt specify 1Mbit down 512kbit up

Monthly downstream / upstream speeds: 1MB downstream and 128k upstream.*
Monthly megabyte allowance: 10 GB download / 1 GB upload.

important bit to note here Minister, is the *

*These speeds are not guaranteed as eircom broadband is rate adaptive i.e. a distance dependant technology

Best of luck in the election, hopefully, if you get elected, they will make you Minister for something else.

jbkenn

cgarvey

Surely the number of those who can't get BB in red areas is higher than those in the green areas to be covered? I.e. this is a rural broadband tender, not a national one?

Which satellite company will be first along with to say VoIP and VPN activities work beatuifully over their service?

Don't the Aran Islands (or one of them anyway) have BB (similar to OBWan's point above)?

Whilst there is provision for price increases, there's no provision for increased speeds. 1Mb/128Kb is not going to be me of much use to anyone in 5 years time.

SLAs are welcome. No consumer-focussed SLAs mentioned though (no uptime, install times, fault repair time guarantees).

It's a good measure, and it will bring hapiness to many, but I've an awful feeling there'll be a lot of people feeling shafted & neglected by this.

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

If on the other hand we want to use some arbitrary map and fill blanks on it, then the current approach is great and not all that different from the GBS, which achieved sod all in the greater scheme of things.

Who knows what it could have achieved if it hadn't been cancelled just over two years ago?

jbkenn

Which satellite company will be first along with to say VoIP and VPN activities work beatuifully over their service?

Naw you're alright there, Ildana are gone, their satellite could handle VoIP and VPN no problem, could make the tea, walk the dog, mow the lawn, aah fond memories of the GBS community meetings, and John waxing lyrical about satellite.

p.s. a lot of the orange blobs on the map are Ildana GBS projects, long since defunct, and left high and dry

jbkenn

watty

oscarBravo wrote:

Considering the amount of time I spent compiling coverage information for the Department last August, I'm seriously pissed to see areas on that map marked as not covered when we have pretty much blanket coverage in them.

Grumpy phone call to the DCMNR in the morning...

Similarly people are not amused to see large areas marked as covered by Wireless when the signal doesn't get there.

damien

I'm going to send in a list of questions to the DCMNR about this.

Anyone want to suggest some questions they'd like answered. Specifically about the tender not general broadband stuff.

watty

They are reserving spectrum for NBS. I havn't read it yet...

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0724.pdf

watty

For those on dialup:

In order to facilitate the two different types of technology currently available, it is
proposed to reserve channel B, a TDD channel and one FDD channel (either A, C or
D) for the use of the successful tender(s), if required, as shown in Figure 1 below.

[Image of 3.5Ghz spectrum Fig1 omitted]

By definition, in all the unserved areas identified by the NBS, the 3.5 GHz band is
not currently utilised. By reserving only two channels, there remain two, freely
available, unreserved channels for expansion and future competing FWA services.

oscarBravo

Interesting, for a number of reasons, not least of which is that the state of affairs wrt 3.5GHz licencing is completely up in the air, since there has been no word on last year's "flexibility" consultation. First, it can be argued that some of the areas in question may be underserved in part because of the way the original licence scheme was structured. Second, unless that structure is changed, it's just not going to be possible to allocate licences in those areas anyway.

This whole thing bites, tbh.

rahtkennades

damien.m wrote:

I'm going to send in a list of questions to the DCMNR about this.

Anyone want to suggest some questions they'd like answered. Specifically about the tender not general broadband stuff.

Damien, I'd like to know what they actually mean by 'all reasonable requests', or if they actually mean that at all.
I've been looking to get broadband for quite some time in Meath, but not covered by wireless due to topographical constraints and not going to be covered by dsl due to the 4.5km radius from the 'whenever' to be enabled exchange. Yet I'm under a big red splodge on that map.

Basically, what are the department's plans to address the gaps in service that will still remain.

Will they move my house to an area that's covered?:rolleyes:

cgarvey

damien.m wrote:

Anyone want to suggest some questions they'd like answered. Specifically about the tender not general broadband stuff.

+ Any provision for minimum customer-focussed requirements (such as minimum time to install, fault repair, etc.? Or is that left up to the winning provider?

+ Who decides what is reasonable when it comes to determining whether a rural/remote location can get BB? Is there a minimum population coverage requirement in the green areas?

+ Will any provision be made for the many in red or pink areas who cannot get broadband?

+ Will the contract have service level & satisfaction metrics built in? Any sort of review process during that 5 years at all?

thebman

I don't think 10Gigabit's is enough. It certainly isn't future proof, neither is any of the minimum requirements. Its what people needed 2 years ago or so.

I would like to know if they have any plans for ensuring that this doesn't end up like the situation LastMile.ie have now where since they are the only operator in the area they can charge 38 Euro a month for 512Kbps download access. I want to know (because the government and so the people are going to fund monopolies essentially to go into rural areas) that they are going to have conditions where service must be improved to be the same standard as it is in towns and cities as time goes on so that rural Ireland is not left behind in the future.

Basically if the minimum broadband you can get and need for reasonable Internet access increases to 10Mbps, I want a condition whereby these providers must invest in the service. That can be linked to a condition whereby the government must fund areas where this is non-profitable but there should be a time limit for when this should occur. Eg. if the towns have 10Mbps then rural Ireland should be upgraded to it within 2 years or something like that.

oscarBravo

brim4brim wrote:

...because the government and so the people are going to fund monopolies essentially to go into rural areas...

Oh, don't worry: they're only going to fund one monopoly to go into all rural areas. Which is much better. Right?

watty

Looking at the map they are going to fund a monopoly to go into some rural areas. I think this might serve less than half the rural people that don't have broadband.

Unless we moor zepplins with 400GHz LOS wireless above the supposed gaps in existing coverage. Wind is a bit of a problem.

Google HAP broadband. The issues of providing the platform seem to be insurmountable, or it would be deployed somewhere already. Supposedly the advantages of satellite without the latency and bandwidth limits.

Blaster99

oscarBravo wrote:

Oh, don't worry: they're only going to fund one monopoly to go into all rural areas. Which is much better. Right?

Absolutely. They're the only ones who can provide 100% coverage so why waste time/money on the little guys?

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

Absolutely. They're the only ones who can provide 100% coverage so why waste time/money on the little guys?

Their track record of 100% coverage to date is pretty impressive, isn't it? I mean, they just enable an exchange, and - hey presto! - 100% coverage of all lines connected to that exchange.

Right?