Rejecting some myths about Immigrants

dochasach

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes. Because of this, and the fact that boards.ie still doesn't have a dedicated forum to discuss immigration, I think this is a good time and place to address some myths about immigrants which are almost univerally accepted by the voting public:

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

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Myth #1: "You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house, car, the lot. But if you are Irish, born, bred and reared and are down on your luck you get nothing."

This was quoted from a post on boards.ie and I can assure you that immigrants, including those who claim political asylum, do not receive a free car or free house here and in fact may not avail of many benefits which are available to Irish citizens. For example, child benefit is not payable to asylum-seekers who arrived in Ireland after the 1st May 2004.


Myth #2: "You can get automatic citizenship by having a child here."

As far as I know, this has never been true. It certainly isn't true now and the more we spread the word around the world, the less likely people will come here thinking this is the case. The problem is, as recently as early 2007, RTE (Ireland's tax subsidized national T.V. station) was still reporting this myth as fact. The citizenship referendum (voted by a majority, understood by a minority), did nothing but remove the automatic citizenship right of children born in Ireland. The parents never had that right.


Myth #3: "Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

While it's true that immigrants helped build many of the houses, it was under direction of Irish property developers and investment interests. For the most part, immigrants have been left off the bottom of the property ladder. How many recent Polish or Nigerian immigrants do you know who are able to drop 350,000 euro on an average Dublin house? Some might wonder if they're contributing to rental demand, that may be true but property prices vs rent yields are currently at an all time low which suggests either an undersupply of tenants or an oversupply of homes. The truth of this matter is that we were in a speculative bubble and according to the last census approximately 250,000 Irish houses sit empty, their owners relying on capital appreciation.

Myth #4: "Immigrants can get automatic citizenship by marrying an Irish person."

Tánaiste McDowell recently introduced a fast-track law to address this myth, but you are only eligible for citizenship after marrying an Irish person and living here at least 5 years.

Myth #5: "Immigrants get automatic citizenship by living in Ireland for 5 years."
You are eligable to apply for citizenship _after_ reckonable residence of at least 5 years, then you must wait several years for the application to be processed. The years spent awaiting decisions on immigration issues do not count as reckonable residence.

Myth #6: "Immigrants are eligible for a green card after living in Ireland for 5 years." The laws were written such that many who have lived here much longer than 5 years are only eligible for short term visas.


Myth #7: "Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate." Traffic fatalities are actually lower than they were years before the immigrants came. Many countries where these immigrants come from have lower traffic fatality rates than here. The problem we're a 1st world country with a 4th world road infrastructure, and we drive too fast.

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now. Of the 4 immigrants in Holles when our child was born, two of them were Philipinos, a nurse and an obstetrician. The problem is really mismanagement of the resources we have.

These are only 8 myths off the top of my head. Don't be surprised if you had no idea this was the way things worked here. From my experience, many who work in the immigration department have no idea what the real law is or the real obstacles faced by immigrants.

GarraiGamhain

"You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house,

So what about all those asylum seekers that live out by me in Galway? Are they paying for their accomadation then?

Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate.

Its true that our traffic fatalities have declined but that decline would be more pronounced if immigrant deaths were not included.

Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

They have most definitely had an effect on rental and sales markets in Ireland. What type if an effect is open to debate.

robinph

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Its true that our traffic fatalities have declined but that decline would be more pronounced if immigrant deaths were not included.

Huh!?!

Do you mean it would be even more reduced if they just stopped counting the numbers?

Captain Trips

dochasach wrote:

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen, and apparently Minister McDowell know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes.

Many people have real concerns about immigration policies in Ireland. There has been no attempt to increase education, health and transport resources in line with increased amounts of immmigrants. Nor has there been adequate increases in policing for the large amount of asylum seekers.

These are real concerns, and are not "anti-immigrant nationalism". The citizens of this country have paid for this state - through 18% mortgage rates and 70% income tax. Now they are left with dilapidated schools, failing health policies and over €100 Million going to Poland every year to pay child support and social services while our own child support systems are collapsing.

But they can have Starbucks.

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

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Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

Zombrex

Captain Trips wrote:

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

I would imagine he means the birth rate in Ireland, rather than the number of Irish citizens having children.

Zambia

This is a good thread you can Post a myth and then it can be disproved.

Myth # Foriegn cars(Eastern Europe) driving Southern Irish roads are insured to a maxium of 160,000 to cover third party. Irish minium insurance requirements state a minium of 3,000,000 euro in the same case.

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

Personnally I dont think these are myths

dochasach

Captain Trips wrote:

Many people have real concerns about immigration policies in Ireland. There has been no attempt to increase education, health and transport resources in line with increased amounts of immmigrants. Nor has there been adequate increases in policing for the large amount of asylum seekers.

These are real concerns, and are not "anti-immigrant nationalism".

Yes there are real concerns and I'm not advocating keeping our heads buried in the sand. By posting this thread I'm trying to separate the anti-immigrant nationalism (which does exist, like it or not) from real concerns which can be addressed fairly. I have no problem with a strict but fair immigration policy, I do have problem with a government, press and populace which directs a disproportional amount of dissent towards newcomers. Look at asylum seekers, it was a huge issue in the last election but it only amounted to a few thousand people during the boom years and has now fallen to what it was in the mid-90s before Ireland's boom.

The citizens of this country have paid for this state - through 18% mortgage rates and 70% income tax. Now they are left with dilapidated schools, failing health policies

Most immigrants pay taxes also, some foreign multinational companys avoid direct tax, but it would be foolish to ignore their contribution towards the boom. But most importantly the take from stamp duty (a huge windfall which would not be possible without the rapid rise in house prices... which some claim is caused by immigrants) should be enough to pave Irish streets with gold and yet we're made to feel as though we're lucky to have them paved at all.

and over €100 Million going to Poland every year to pay child support and social services while our own child support systems are collapsing.

Thanks for reminding me of another myth. Actually there was some truth in it. As is typical in Irish immigration law, there was a huge loophole and after it was reported even more people took advantage of it, but it was closed in March of 2006.

Many immigrants have the opposite problem, we pay full taxes and yet we are ineligible for child benefits. We pay pension, yet we're unlikely to be allowed to live here long enough to collect it. Why isn't this big news? Because it only affects a minority. A minority which doesn't have the right to vote.

So...you've made you're own "myth" true - irish birth rates *were* higher, and are now lower, so naturally the overstretching of hospital resources must be due to non-irish birth rates being high.

I meant the number of births on the island of Ireland. I dug up the statistics several years ago when the citizenship referendum was up for a vote. I won't bother digging them up again, facts are notoriously ineffective in shaping opinion.

dochasach

Zambia232 wrote:

This is a good thread you can Post a myth and then it can be disproved.

Myth # Foriegn cars(Eastern Europe) driving Southern Irish roads are insured to a maxium of 160,000 to cover third party. Irish minium insurance requirements state a minium of 3,000,000 euro in the same case.

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

Personnally I dont think these are myths

I'm glad you like the thread. I agree that should have posted sources for refuting each myth but I posted it in a hurry before lunch because I'd heard one too many claims that I knew (from personal experience) to be false and because I've yet to meet an Irish person who understands these issues as well as newcomers do.

I don't know if your "Foreign car" myth was meant to prove that Ireland wouldn't have a terrible road fatality rate without foreigners but to me all it proves is that Ireland needs to improve enforcement of insurance laws. Ireland needs to improve traffic enforcement in general and road test procedures... and roads but that's another bucket of threads which would persist even if Ireland were an "ethnically pure" state.

The second one sounds like a reference to either a true but unusual event (unusual enough that it probably made the papers therefore you heard about it), or urban folklore. Claims that this is repesentative is bad both for the immigrant (predjudicing Irish against them) and bad for Ireland because if desparate immigrants believe this will work, someone will try it.

My advice for anyone immigrating anywhere is that you will need your passport and every reference and original record you can get from your homeland. If the country your are a guest in needs originals which don't exist in your own country you're out of luck. I was stopped from getting a transferrable Irish visa by the fact that my home university published only detailed acedemic transcripts instead of parchment diplomas. Their decorative parchment diplomas which said "Bachelor of Science" and didn't detail the degree. This was unacceptable to the people at the Irish visa office even though by rights I was qualified for this visa. Yes I know this encourages forgery and probably lets in as many criminals as it rejects qualified applicants, that's why my university stopped using parchment diplomas as legal documents.

Zambia

dochasach wrote:

I don't know if your "Foreign car" myth was meant to prove that Ireland wouldn't have a terrible road fatality rate without foreigners but to me all it proves is that Ireland needs to improve enforcement of insurance laws. Ireland needs to improve traffic enforcement in general and road test procedures... and roads but that's another bucket of threads which would persist even if Ireland were an "ethnically pure" state.

Agreed irish people need no foriegn help killing themselves on irish roads but let me be more spefific.

Lets say what is the limit of a Polish/Lithunian cars maxium 3rd Party Insurance.

IMO if a car is on irish roads despite being from a foriegn nation it should have travel insurance/insurance that matchs the max limit on 3rd party of the nation its used in.

This is to ensure parity of the cost of damages in the nation the accident happened.

I in no way want to blame non-nationals for any increase in road accidents however we all make mistakes.

dochasach

Zambia232 wrote:

Agreed irish people need no foriegn help killing themselves on irish roads but let me be more spefific.

Lets say what is the limit of a Polish/Lithunian cars maxium 3rd Party Insurance.

IMO if a car is on irish roads despite being from a foriegn nation it should have travel insurance/insurance that matchs the max limit on 3rd party of the nation its used in.

This is to ensure parity of the cost of damages in the nation the accident happened.

I in no way want to blame non-nationals for any increase in road accidents however we all make mistakes.

Well said. I happen to agree with you here. I'd also suggest that the fact that Ireland accepts left hand drive cars and drivers from countries with a much higher per km traffic fatality rate than Ireland means that the transport minister should negotiate license parity with countries with a left hand drive and much lower per km traffic fatality rate (e.g. Canada). This would be one way to quickly clear some off the driver testing queue thoughit might require negotiation between Canada and the E.U. Alternatively E.U. countries with left-hand drive could be required to get their car modified and take the Irish driving test and then the DL testing queues will extend even longer, which means more job security for the testers.

Zambia

dochasach wrote:

Well said. I happen to agree with you here. I'd also suggest that the fact that Ireland accepts left hand drive cars and drivers from countries with a much higher per km traffic fatality rate than Ireland means that the transport minister should negotiate license parity with countries with a left hand drive and much lower per km traffic fatality rate (e.g. Canada). This would be one way to quickly clear some off the driver testing queue thoughit might require negotiation between Canada and the E.U. Alternatively E.U. countries with left-hand drive could be required to get their car modified and take the Irish driving test and then the DL testing queues will extend even longer, which means more job security for the testers.

Im missing your pionts , however I suppose the 1st Myth is still not disproven then.

If one of the many Polish or Lithunian cars on Irish roads hits you and causes life affecting injuries , the policy that insures them will only pay out 160,000 euro.

Hardly enough to support you in ireland over a long period after medical expenses. Not to mention polish premuims are cheaper. So as an irish citizen you have to pay irish insurance premuims to support irish limits but as a driver of a polish vehicle you pay less insurance for less cover unsuitable to support an Irish claim yet your are able to drive irish roads.

As for the second one I will try and recall why they do such things.

* Note I have no problem with either polish our Lithunian migrants just your vehicles , Welcome to Ireland.

Captain Trips

dochasach wrote:

Thanks for reminding me of another myth. Actually there was some truth in it. As is typical in Irish immigration law, there was a huge loophole and after it was reported even more people took advantage of it, but it was closed in March of 2006.

Many immigrants have the opposite problem, we pay full taxes and yet we are ineligible for child benefits.

On the matter of child benefits, I was incorrect - the debated figure is actually €150 Million per year. Furthermore, it is not "typical in Irish...law" - the UK has the exact same problem.

The Habitual Residence Requirement is NOT a requirement for EU and EEA workers. EU and EEA nationals can claim Irish benefits even if their child is living in another country.

Irish child benefits: ~€140/week
Poland child benefits: €11/week

Migrant Resource Centre http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/accessing_socialprotect.htm - from the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland.
Irish Council of Civil Liberties http://www.iccl.ie/DB_Data/publications/04_draft_referendumpaper.pdf
You said this was a "loophole" and was closed - yet clearly it hasn't as it is still advised to migrants of EU countries to do this. I.E - you lied in your repsonse, or were not aware of what Migrants are being advised to do to claim and extract benefits from Ireland and move them to other poorer countries.

The MIgrant Rescource Centre of Ireland advises people to claim child benefits if their child is not resident in the state - as that is legal and has not been a loophole that has closed, as you incorrectly stated.

I will reiterate - a migrant worker from any EU state can claim the (very high) child benefits from Ireland and move them to the child in Poland. This is money that Irish taxes paid for, and yet Irish citizens will see none of. It costs ~€150 Million per year. The poor immigrant who gets no benefits does not exist - as the state will give full child benefits to ANY person worker here - EU or EEA or Zimbabwe.

I think it is outrageous that over €100 Million is taken from Irish children and sent to Poland. Next time your grandmother waits 8 hrs for chest pain in A/E, or a children in Clondalkin go to school in prefabs, think of the Polish kid in Krakow. I'm sure he is glad you paid your taxes. I'm sure he's glad a nation 4 million people is supporting a nation of 40 million. When Ireland was a net receiver of payments from the EU, we were a tiny blip - about the population of a single French or German or Italian city on the grand EU cash radar.

Or maybe some of that could fix the Galway water treatment problem. No - instead it goes to supporting a country 10 times our population while people in Galway get parasite infections.

dochasach wrote:

I meant the number of births on the island of Ireland. I dug up the statistics several years ago when the citizenship referendum was up for a vote. I won't bother digging them up again, facts are notoriously ineffective in shaping opinion.

http://www.esr.ie/Vol32_2fahy.pdf

However, the Irish birth rate is now dropping. 1980: 70064 births. 1994: 48255. 2002: 60521.

Population replacement rate among Irish citizens is around 1.9, below the replacement rate. Having children does not go well with rampant consumerism. Having children is for the poor and working class. irish people don't want children.

Fact is: a higher proportion of births now than 20 years ago are to foreign born mothers - EU or not. While the influx of Polish are sitting pretty taking hundreds of millions out of the economy to feed their own children in Poland, the few *Irish* children left (as seen by the falling birth rates) won't have access to any of this cash.

So, Irish taxes are now going to support the children of Poland - which has a rising birth rate, and not Irish children, who are dwindling in number.

GarraiGamhain

Poland child benefits: €11/week

Jesus..What a ****hole. We're a very small country to be supporting such a larger one financially and its something that should only be for the short term. Poland needs to get in step with the rest of Europe.

Fratton Fred

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Jesus..What a ****hole. We're a very small country to be supporting such a larger one financially and its something that should only be for the short term. Poland needs to get in step with the rest of Europe.

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Poland is in the same position Ireland was 15 years ago, now Ireland is wealthy and is having to pay it's dues.

That is why it is called the european community.

Still, it's not like the Irish have ever gone abroad looking for work is it:rolleyes:

Captain Trips

Fratton Fred wrote:

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Poland is in the same position Ireland was 15 years ago, now Ireland is wealthy and is having to pay it's dues.

That is why it is called the european community.

Still, it's not like the Irish have ever gone abroad looking for work is it:rolleyes:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

Again, Ireland is a tiny country - EU aid helped enormously, but it was 200 million people helping 4 million.


The only countries that allow this are Ireland, UK and Sweden which all have adopted a similar policy with the accession states. Including a tiny country like Ireland is not a big deal for big countries - that even now realised why they shouldn't adopt the Swedish/UK/Ireland approach. This was Germany, France, Italy, etc,. . They all supported Ireland for many years, but it's swung far FAR back on us.
Can you comment on how this is the same thing because I can't see how it would be, especially as people can barely afford child care in Ireland as it is, why more money should be thrown abroad carelessly.

Ireland = tiny country, got money from loads of huge countries.

Ireland = supporting a country with ten times it's population now.

Does it make sense? Clearly the government is misdirecting money away from the needed child care areas in OUR OWN country which surely should be taken care of first.

Zambia

Fratton Fred wrote:

remind me, how much money has Ireland received from the EU, in the region of €54bn I believe.

Wonder how much we spent on magic beans??

Fratton Fred

Captain Trips wrote:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

Again, Ireland is a tiny country - EU aid helped enormously, but it was 200 million people helping 4 million.

Can you comment on how this is the same thing because I can't see how it would be, especially as people can barely afford child care in Ireland as it is, why more money should be thrown abroad carelessly.

Ireland = tiny country, got money from loads of huge countries.

Ireland = supporting a country with ten times it's population now.

Does it make sense? Clearly the government is misdirecting money away from the needed child care areas in OUR OWN country which surely should be taken care of first.

Oh, so every person that left Poland went to Ireland. Don't for a minute think Ireland is unique in this, it is just new that is all.

And where do you think EU money comes from, it all comes out of us tax payers.

Captain Trips

I am still waiting for a reasonable repsonse to the following:

a) Why funds generated by Irish tax payers are not being giving to Irish services like child care, child benefits and education, social housing, etc.,

b) Why a tiny country should be sending so much money abroad when all other EU countries except for UK and Sweden have chosen NOT to.

Arguments restricted to 2007 please.

darkman2

dochasach wrote:

It's election time and as America's Pat Buchanan and France's Jean-Marie Le Pen, and apparently Minister McDowell know, anti-immigrant nationalism is second only to mud slinging in its effectiveness at winning votes. Because of this, and the fact that boards.ie still doesn't have a dedicated forum to discuss immigration, I think this is a good time and place to address some myths about immigrants which are almost univerally accepted by the voting public:

Urban, Suburban and Rural Myths about Immigrants to Ireland

---

Myth #1: "You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house, car, the lot. But if you are Irish, born, bred and reared and are down on your luck you get nothing."

This was quoted from a post on boards.ie and I can assure you that immigrants, including those who claim political asylum, do not receive a free car or free house here and in fact may not avail of many benefits which are available to Irish citizens. For example, child benefit is not payable to asylum-seekers who arrived in Ireland after the 1st May 2004.


Myth #2: "You can get automatic citizenship by having a child here."

As far as I know, this has never been true. It certainly isn't true now and the more we spread the word around the world, the less likely people will come here thinking this is the case. The problem is, as recently as early 2007, RTE (Ireland's tax subsidized national T.V. station) was still reporting this myth as fact. The citizenship referendum (voted by a majority, understood by a minority), did nothing but remove the automatic citizenship right of children born in Ireland. The parents never had that right.


Myth #3: "Immigrants caused the housing bubble."

While it's true that immigrants helped build many of the houses, it was under direction of Irish property developers and investment interests. For the most part, immigrants have been left off the bottom of the property ladder. How many recent Polish or Nigerian immigrants do you know who are able to drop 350,000 euro on an average Dublin house? Some might wonder if they're contributing to rental demand, that may be true but property prices vs rent yields are currently at an all time low which suggests either an undersupply of tenants or an oversupply of homes. The truth of this matter is that we were in a speculative bubble and according to the last census approximately 250,000 Irish houses sit empty, their owners relying on capital appreciation.

Myth #4: "Immigrants can get automatic citizenship by marrying an Irish person."

Tánaiste McDowell recently introduced a fast-track law to address this myth, but you are only eligible for citizenship after marrying an Irish person and living here at least 5 years.

Myth #5: "Immigrants get automatic citizenship by living in Ireland for 5 years."
You are eligable to apply for citizenship _after_ reckonable residence of at least 5 years, then you must wait several years for the application to be processed. The years spent awaiting decisions on immigration issues do not count as reckonable residence.

Myth #6: "Immigrants are eligible for a green card after living in Ireland for 5 years." The laws were written such that many who have lived here much longer than 5 years are only eligible for short term visas.


Myth #7: "Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate." Traffic fatalities are actually lower than they were years before the immigrants came. Many countries where these immigrants come from have lower traffic fatality rates than here. The problem we're a 1st world country with a 4th world road infrastructure, and we drive too fast.

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now. Of the 4 immigrants in Holles when our child was born, two of them were Philipinos, a nurse and an obstetrician. The problem is really mismanagement of the resources we have.

These are only 8 myths off the top of my head. Don't be surprised if you had no idea this was the way things worked here. From my experience, many who work in the immigration department have no idea what the real law is or the real obstacles faced by immigrants.

I know how this thread will end up!:rolleyes:

Zambia

darkman2 wrote:

I know how this thread will end up!:rolleyes:

I can see where it could go but the last Immigration thread remained civil.

ircoha

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

Captain Trips

ircoha wrote:

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

I am only hearing these myths for the first time. Again, lets forget about myths and concentrate on reality.

Please stop setting fabricated argument goal posts - no one on this forum has even defended any of these myths but I still see no intelligent responses to my previous questions.

I don't think anyone cares about myths - they have little to do with reality after all. Let's discuss the reality of the situation in modern Ireland with regard to benefits, education and health seeing as those are the topics that your myths refer to.

WHere are you getting these myths? - no-one on these boards has ever proposed such outrageous suggestions. What it does suggest is that you wish to label people who wish proper discussion as being racist, while appearing clearly racist yourself in suggesting that Irish people believe these "Myths". Stop being racist against Irish people.

How about some FACTS about modern Ireland that has been created over the past decade:

Where did this 1500 teachers myth come from? Did you just make it up? I've never heard anyone mention anything so outrageous. What IS a FACT is that out teacher: pupil ratio has continued to change in the wrong direction, which can be attributed to increase in class sizes.

Now, with the Irish population not having children - where do you think the extra numbers are coming from? Myth? Out of the big myth bucket?

1. FACT - Ireland pays over €100 million per year to child benefits abroad while Irish children do not have access to this tax generated money.

2. FACT - Irish suicide rates have doubled since 1987 and over that period there has been a corresponding decrease in the portion of the health budget for the mental health services

3. FACT - We have a pupil: teacher ratio of 20.3. This is here http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_pup_tea_rat_pri_lev-pupils-teacher-ratio-primary-level. Ironically, Poland's ratio is just over 10, so they have double the number of teachers for their school population, yet we *still* foot the bill in Ireland while we rank almost at the bottom of Europe now for teachers : pupils.

NOWHERE< has anyone said 1500 teachers are going for language problems, etc., . The only myths are made up by you.

dochasach

Captain Trips wrote:

On the matter of child benefits, I was incorrect - the debated figure is actually €150 Million per year. Furthermore, it is not "typical in Irish...law" - the UK has the exact same problem.

The Habitual Residence Requirement is NOT a requirement for EU and EEA workers. EU and EEA nationals can claim Irish benefits even if their child is living in another country.

Irish child benefits: ~€140/week
Poland child benefits: €11/week

Migrant Resource Centre http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/accessing_socialprotect.htm - from the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland.
Irish Council of Civil Liberties http://www.iccl.ie/DB_Data/publications/04_draft_referendumpaper.pdf
You said this was a "loophole" and was closed - yet clearly it hasn't as it is still advised to migrants of EU countries to do this. I.E - you lied in your repsonse, or were not aware of what Migrants are being advised to do to claim and extract benefits from Ireland and move them to other poorer countries.


The MIgrant Rescource Centre of Ireland advises people to claim child benefits if their child is not resident in the state - as that is legal and has not been a loophole that has closed, as you incorrectly stated.

MRCI is an independent immigration advocacy organization, if government employees don't understand the government's own laws, how do you expect outsiders to? Here from the horses mouth: http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/families/cb.html:

Department of Social and Family Affairs
An Roinn Gnóthaí Sóisialacha agus Teaghlaigh
Child Benefit

Child Benefit is a benefit paid every month for each qualified child normally living with you and being supported by you. A qualified child is:

* a child under age 16
and/or
* a child aged 16, 17 or 18
- who is in full-time education, or
- is attending a FÁS YOUTHREACH course, or
- is physically or mentally disabled and dependent on you.

Captain Trips wrote:

I will reiterate - a migrant worker from any EU state can claim the (very high) child benefits from Ireland and move them to the child in Poland. This is money that Irish taxes paid for, and yet Irish citizens will see none of.

This money comes from all taxes, both those paid by Irish and those paid by the foreign worker. As the governmen website above states that it is for children supported by parents. This benefit goes overwhelmingly to workers (i.e. taxpayers) with children. In other countries they call this a tax rebate for dependent care, Ireland used to call it a "Children's Allowance." Those who construe it as free money that goes only to immigrants are just plain wrong. Call this Myth #42.

It costs ~€150 Million per year. The poor immigrant who gets no benefits does not exist - as the state will give full child benefits to ANY person worker here - EU or EEA or Zimbabwe.

No, non-E.U. immigrants must be considered "habitually resident" before they qualify for any child benefits and even though I've been here more than half a decade, I've yet to collect the "Early Childcare Supplement", which appears to be only for E.U. citizens even though it is also partially supported by taxes paid by immigrants.

Where did the 150 Million/year number come from, I didn't see it when glancing at the links you sent? It sounds like a journalist or politician scaremongering but consider this: Polish workers helped build about 80,000 houses per year which at the current average price of €309,071 contributed about 24 Billion to the Irish economy (160 times the Child benefit estimate). A couple billion more will be collected in stamp duty, not to mention income tax, VAT tax and other financial benefits Ireland would not see if he were laying bricks in Warsaw.

... When Ireland was a net receiver of payments from the EU, we were a tiny blip - about the population of a single French or German or Italian city on the grand EU cash radar.

Or maybe some of that could fix the Galway water treatment problem. No - instead it goes to supporting a country 10 times our population while people in Galway get parasite infections.

Wait a minute, now you're blaming immigrants for Galway's water problem? The government should be rolling in money right now because of the economic boom. The fact that this money isn't managed correctly in order to get results is a problem that immigrants, sadly have nothing to do with and probably can't fix. They can't vote here. That's youre job.

As for Ireland's economic magnitude, I could be wrong but I think you underestimate the gap between the Irish and Polish economy. You say Poland has 10 times the population of Ireland, but your numbers above suggests that the Polish economy is on the order of 1/10th that of Ireland. In fact average wages in Poland are about 5520 Euro, about 1/5th the average here.

While we're complaining about money flowing across borders and disrupting lives, why don't we see newspaper articles about Polish, Bulgarian, Turkish and even Spanish nationals being priced out of their homes by Irish speculators? When someone distorts the economics of a faraway land with speculative vacation homes, shouldn't he be prepared to accept the people he displaces?

http://www.google.com/trends?q=property+poland&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

mikemac

Zambia232 wrote:

Myth # Immigrants destroy their passports on the plane over as they need them to get on planes but cannot have it on arrival as they can be deported easier once id can be proved.

It's a good thread OP, can you expand on this one?
If you claim asulym, don't you have to do so at the first safe country you arrive in?
I've heard from a few sources that there are no direct flights between Ireland and Nigeria. I don't know the route that Nigerian asulym seekers take to come to Ireland but if they stop in the UK or France for example, why not look for help there? Why travel onwards?

I'm using Nigeria as an example as it's the country most often discussed in Ireland for situations like this

dochasach

ircoha wrote:

Myth No 9

We have allocated 1500 out of 4000 teachers to cater for the language needs of our immigrants, resulting in no reduction in class sizes for the natives.

Myth No 10

Our new residents had no part in the massive upsurge in ATM and CC fraud, with current estimates of 7 million scamed/skimmed in 2006.

I agree with Captain Trips on this one, I hadn't heard these myths but most of the ones I mentioned at the start of this thread well enough ingrained that I'm confident I'm not the only one who has encountered them.

Is the belief that many immigrants are criminals common enough to qualify as Myth 9 or would this be an unfair assumption? The news media seems quick to assume that the baddy is a foreigner. When a dismembered body was found in the canal we read about african ritual killings and only later learned that it was the work of indigenous "scissor sisters."

dochasach

micmclo wrote:

It's a good thread OP, can you expand on this one?
If you claim asulym, don't you have to do so at the first safe country you arrive in?
I've heard from a few sources that there are no direct flights between Ireland and Nigeria. I don't know the route that Nigerian asulym seekers take to come to Ireland but if they stop in the UK or France for example, why not look for help there? Why travel onwards?

I'm using Nigeria as an example as it's the country most often discussed in Ireland for situations like this

I don't know either, but there was quite a bit of hype regarding asylum seekers considering their numbers. There were 4314 Asylum seeker applications last year, the lowest number since 1998: http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/culture.htm
I think the rejection rate is close to 50% so we're really talking about a small inflow, the Nigerians are a percentage of that and those who are here on false pretense are a small percentage of that. For comparison, there are approximately 30,000 Irish citizens living illegally in New York City alone. Thanks to a convenient skin colour and allies like Bertie and Clinton, they'll probably move to the top of the queue ahead of 10 million illegal immigrants from Mexico. As you probably know, Mexico's economy is not as robust as Ireland's currently is and an illegal immigrant from Mexico is much less likely to find a job in his own country, yet you don't see Mexico's president Felipe Calderón lobbying on behalf of illegal immigrants from his country.

Captain Trips

dochasach wrote:

MRCI is an independent immigration advocacy organization, if government employees don't understand the government's own laws, how do you expect outsiders to? Here from the horses mouth: http://www.welfare.ie/schemes/families/cb.html:

Department of Social and Family Affairs
An Roinn Gnóthaí Sóisialacha agus Teaghlaigh
Child Benefit

You've onlu provided a part-answer. the Habitual Residence Requirement, which is required to claim beneifts, is NOT a requirement for EU or EEA nationals.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.

The website you linked to is out of date in this regard, and you can see clearly that the Citizens Information site states that the requirement is not necessary for

One-Parent Family Payment
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
Family Income Supplement
Child Benefit.

So, you could please comment further on how Ireland is supporting families and children not born nor have ever been resident here? I used the MRCI site, as it would avoid accusations of racism - I am using migrant and public resource websites for references.

FACT: Ireland does not require children to have been resident in the state, nor does it require the minimum 2 years residence to claim benefits. Those benefits can be paid to children not resident in the state to any other EU or EEA state. Only Ireland, UK and Sweden allow this - no other EU state does.

This money comes from all taxes, both those paid by Irish and those paid by the foreign worker. As the governmen website above states that it is for children supported by parents. This benefit goes overwhelmingly to workers (i.e. taxpayers) with children. In other countries they call this a tax rebate for dependent care, Ireland used to call it a "Children's Allowance." Those who construe it as free money that goes only to immigrants are just plain wrong. Call this Myth #42.

I would think that more Irish people are paying into the Irish tax kitty than non-Irish workers here. Hence, it is primarily Irish taxpayer money being spent abroad.

No, non-E.U. immigrants must be considered "habitually resident" before they qualify for any child benefits and even though I've been here more than half a decade, I've yet to collect the "Early Childcare Supplement", which appears to be only for E.U. citizens even though it is also partially supported by taxes paid by immigrants.

Your personal circumstances are not relevant to the argument, I think.

Where did the 150 Million/year number come from, I didn't see it when glancing at the links you sent? It sounds like a journalist or politician scaremongering but consider this:

The benefits are around €1000/year (low estimate as currently it is ~€140/month) for around 100,000 people (which is ~20% of the migrant population in Ireland who have dependent children). In case you missed it, it was reported by Irish Time and Independent around 8 weeks ago, have a google.

Polish workers helped build about 80,000 houses per year which at the current average price of €309,071 contributed about 24 Billion to the Irish economy (160 times the Child benefit estimate).

Thanks for taking credit for all of the home built last year. How many exactly? All homes? by all Polish workers? Source please? I don't think you'll find one. Are you really suggesting that Polish workers built every single house in Ireland last year?

And that all of the asking price of each house is a "contribution" to the Irish economy? You realise that that is 24 billion borrowed by Irish people primarily to purchase those homes? Stop using magic maths. What is a contribution?

A couple billion more will be collected in stamp duty, not to mention income tax, VAT tax and other financial benefits Ireland would not see if he were laying bricks in Warsaw.

Give me numbers, not ideas. Give me facts and not suggestions.

Wait a minute, now you're blaming immigrants for Galway's water problem? The government should be rolling in money right now because of the economic boom. The fact that this money isn't managed correctly in order to get results is a problem that immigrants, sadly have nothing to do with and probably can't fix. They can't vote here. That's youre job.

I am suggesting that money sent abroad to support non-resident children could have been better spent fixing local sanitation problems and education facilities for Irish people and resident EU and EEA nationals in Ireland.

As for Ireland's economic magnitude, I could be wrong but I think you underestimate the gap between the Irish and Polish economy. You say Poland has 10 times the population of Ireland, but your numbers above suggests that the Polish economy is on the order of 1/10th that of Ireland. In fact average wages in Poland are about 5520 Euro, about 1/5th the average here.

This is in a tangent to the original argument I had - that Poland has a population 10 times that of Ireland, yet Ireland is supporting children in POland without any minimum residence requirement of the parents in Ireland. This is what the Citizens Information (Government run) and MRCI (VOlunteer run) sites advise, as linked above. I never in any of the above points said anything of the Polish economy - whatever you infer from it is your business. I mentioned NOTHING of the Polish "economy".

It is NOT about the "economy" - a vacuous and ambiguous term. I am talking population numbers because that is what is relevant - a much smaller country supporting a much larger country, and only the UK and Sweden are the only other EU countries to have such a ridiculous situation when services in the home country are so poor.

While we're complaining about money flowing across borders and disrupting lives, why don't we see newspaper articles about Polish, Bulgarian, Turkish and even Spanish nationals being priced out of their homes by Irish speculators? When someone distorts the economics of a faraway land with speculative vacation homes, shouldn't he be prepared to accept the people he displaces?

http://www.google.com/trends?q=property+poland&ctab=0

This is going way off the point and the thread I think - it is about myths and (my) rebuttals to facts about immigrants in Ireland.

Captain Trips

I'll reiterate the main part of my argument here, for anyone who wishes to make a reasonable debate:

1. Non-irish EU and EEA workers can claim family and child benefits in Ireland

2. Those workers do not have to meet Habitual Resident Requirements. This is referenced :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland

3. As such, non-reisdent EU and EEA children have access to benefits paid for primarily by the Irish tax payer. The child may have never even resided or visited Ireland. The parent can be working in Ireland for as little as a week to claim them.

4. The benefits are around €140/week - over 10 times what they are in Poland.

5. Only the UK, Ireland and Sweden allow this transfer of benefits across borders. No other EU country, including Poland, allows the payment of benefits to non-resident workers.

mikemac

dochasach wrote:

I don't know either, but there was quite a bit of hype regarding asylum seekers considering their numbers. There were 4314 Asylum seeker applications last year, the lowest number since 1998: http://www.cori.ie/justice/soc_issues/spec_issues/culture.htm
I think the rejection rate is close to 50% so we're really talking about a small inflow, the Nigerians are a percentage of that and those who are here on false pretense are a small percentage of that. For comparison, there are approximately 30,000 Irish citizens living illegally in New York City alone.

You didn't answer my question at all but instead posted about the Irish in America.
All I want to know is why don't Nigerian asulym seekers seek help in the first safe country they arrive in as they are supposed to?
And since there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland, I can't understand how they arrive here. There's a fault in the system somewhere.
May seem like an obvious question to all you experts but I can't understand it.

Fratton Fred

micmclo wrote:

You didn't answer my question at all but instead posted about the Irish in America.
All I want to know is why don't Nigerian asulym seekers seek help in the first safe country they arrive in as they are supposed to?
And since there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland, I can't understand how they arrive here. There's a fault in the system somewhere.
May seem like an obvious question to all you experts but I can't understand it.

it's pretty simple, the country they first arrive in can't wait to ship them on somewhere else. It's not an Irish question either, there are people all over Europe asking the same thing.

One possibility, is that Asylum in Ireland may be easier to acquire than the UK, once settled in Ireland, the UK is just a short, very easy, hop away.

take a look at this http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=261

Zombrex

Captain Trips wrote:

That guilt trip of "Irish looking for work abroad" is an old old argument and does not make a good counter argument as to why non-EU money in a country of 4 million should support the child care system of a country of 40 million.

You had me up to here.

You were making interesting points about the strain put on the child benefit system by immigration (not that I consider that a negative against immigration, rather the current running of the Social Welfare system)

But now you are just talking nonsense rhetoric. Ireland is not support thing the child care system of 40 million people

Once again a immigration thread on Boards has descended into scaremongering nonsense

:rolleyes:

Zombrex

Captain Trips wrote:

I'll reiterate the main part of my argument here, for anyone who wishes to make a reasonable debate:

1. Non-irish EU and EEA workers can claim family and child benefits in Ireland

2. Those workers do not have to meet Habitual Resident Requirements. This is referenced :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland

3. As such, non-reisdent EU and EEA children have access to benefits paid for primarily by the Irish tax payer. The child may have never even resided or visited Ireland. The parent can be working in Ireland for as little as a week to claim them.

4. The benefits are around €140/week - over 10 times what they are in Poland.

5. Only the UK, Ireland and Sweden allow this transfer of benefits across borders. No other EU country, including Poland, allows the payment of benefits to non-resident workers.

And....?

I'm not following your objection to this? You seem to have an underlying assertion that there is no money left over for Irish children? Anything to support this claim?

Getting back to the thread topic, the biggest "myth" I see flying around on all immigration threads on Boards is the idea that if something for immigrants costs money that means that some where else Irish people are not getting money directly because of the immigrants being here.

The simple fact of the matter is that is a nonsense generalization of the way government works. There are not simply two big piles of money, one for immigrants and one for Irish people, and the immigrants keep stealing from the Irish pile.

I work at the moment (on contract) for the public service. If government departments worked like the argument above it would be like saying that if I get a new stapler or computer monitor someone in a HSE office in Mayo (I don't work for the HSE btw) doesn't get a stapler or computer monitor, because its all the one big pile of money.

Its funny the way people can go to great detail to explain what immigrants can get and then simply fall back on the most ridiculous idea of government so they can feel that because immigrants get this some where some Irish person must be missing out.

Nonsense.

GarraiGamhain

We should differentiate between immigrants and asylum seekers. Every single asylum seeker in Ireland is a fraud and a con. Given our Island nature and our political relationship from NI there can be no legitimate refugees or asylum seekers. THey cost the state huge money in housing, processing and deporting. Each deportation flight to Nigeria costs the govt. over a million euro.

Duras

Captain Trips wrote:

Irish child benefits: ~€140/week
Poland child benefits: €11/week

From where did you get this amounts off? We are talking about ~€140/month, right?

Zombrex

GarraiGamhain wrote:

We should differentiate between immigrants and asylum seekers. Every single asylum seeker in Ireland is a fraud and a con.

Well its good to see this thread isn't going to descend into nonsense generalisations ... :rolleyes:

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Given our Island nature and our political relationship from NI there can be no legitimate refugees or asylum seekers.

That isn't true. The Dublin Convention doesn't define an asylum seeker to be non-legitimate if they do not declare at their first entry into the EU. You can be a legitimate asylum seeker and not declare in your first port of entry.

Its like saying that if I get mugged in O'Connell St and report it at the Trinity Gardai station rather than the O'Connell St one it must mean I'm making it up. Nonsense, though I would understand if Trinity tell me to go to O'Connell St because they don't want to deal with it.

GarraiGamhain wrote:

Each deportation flight to Nigeria costs the govt. over a million euro.

So you don't want bogus asylum seekers here, but you also don't want the government to deport the bogus asylum seekers because it costs to much money

Not sure you have fully thought that one through there Garrai

GarraiGamhain

I want them put in detention centres in teh middle of nowhere like they are in Australia. Then they should be put into labour for a year to pay for their deportation. My point stands about their being not a single genuine refugee in Ireland.

Zambia

GarraiGamhain wrote:

I want them put in detention centres in teh middle of nowhere like they are in Australia. Then they should be put into labour for a year to pay for their deportation. My point stands about their being not a single genuine refugee in Ireland.

While having fairly hardline migration policies myself I still cant see how you can prove this , hence unless you can I suggest you stand down from your quite racist rhetoric.

Basically you just hate foriegners thats your piont now move on.

GarraiGamhain

I don't hate foreign people. I just don't like being taken for a ride by them and feeling pressurised to say nothing because I don't want to appear racist.

Zombrex

GarraiGamhain wrote:

I want them put in detention centres in teh middle of nowhere like they are in Australia.

Yes because building and running a large prison costs less that a flight to Nigeria :rolleyes:

GarraiGamhain wrote:

My point stands about their being not a single genuine refugee in Ireland.

If by "point" you mean "unsupported and rather ridiculous generalization", they yes it does

Zombrex

GarraiGamhain wrote:

I don't hate foreign people. I just don't like being taken for a ride by them and feeling pressurised to say nothing because I don't want to appear racist.

Yet you are perfectly happy for the government to spend millions to make them suffer for coming here?

Clearly the cost to the tax payer isn't your motivation for your anti-asylum seeker stance since what you propose would cost us far far more than the current system of assessment and deportation. The only conclusion is that you want to punish them for something (daring to come here I guess)

GarraiGamhain

You show me one legitimate refugee in Ireland. Where is he/she from? Why didn;t they go accross the border to the country beside them. Why did they decide on a faraway island nation like Ireland? A proper refugee doesn't book flights months in advance to escape war/persecution.

dochasach

Captain Trips wrote:

You've onlu provided a part-answer. the Habitual Residence Requirement, which is required to claim beneifts, is NOT a requirement for EU or EEA nationals.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/introduction-to-the-irish-system/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.

The website you linked to is out of date in this regard, and you can see clearly that the Citizens Information site states that the requirement is not necessary for

One-Parent Family Payment
Guardian's Payment (Non-Contributory)
Family Income Supplement
Child Benefit.

What? A government website intended for passing on accurate information to immigrants was out of date? I'm shocked! Or at least newcomers would be shocked. Are you saying that the form on this website is wrong:http://www.welfare.ie/forms/cb1.pdf


If so, what is the correct form one would use to send child benefit to dependent children abroad?

The govenment Welfare site still says "To qualify for Child Benefit you must satisfy the Habitual Residence Condition. This condition took effect from 1 May 2004 and affects all applicants regardless of nationality. See information booklet SW 108 for more information.

Even assuming the independent non-government site you linked to is correct, you left a few things out:

EU/EEA citizens and Swiss nationals who are employed or self-employed in Ireland and subject to the Irish Social Insurance system, do not have to satisfy the habitual residence condition to qualify for Family Benefits. The following Irish social welfare payments are classified as Family Benefits under EU Regulations:

Then the benefits you listed. All of these should be considered rebates of taxes paid because they only apply to those who work, i.e. taxpayers.

EU/EEA workers will satisfy the habitual residence condition but people from the EU/EEA who move to Ireland in search of employment are subject to the habitual residence test in the normal way while looking for work.

So, you could please comment further on how Ireland is supporting families and children not born nor have ever been resident here? I used the MRCI site, as it would avoid accusations of racism - I am using migrant and public resource websites for references.

I already have.

Your personal circumstances are not relevant to the argument, I think.

The personal circumstances of a few individuals who some feel cheated the Irish Child benefits system lead to a media frenzy in the Irish broadsheets and a political firestorm. The reason my circumstances are relevant is that they happen to apply to all non EEA/EC nationals with children in Ireland. The most recent "Childcare allowance" benefit is not available to Non EU workers, even though they and their children live in Ireland and even though pay taxes to support this benefit for others.

The benefits are around €1000/year (low estimate as currently it is ~€140/month) for around 100,000 people (which is ~20% of the migrant population in Ireland who have dependent children). In case you missed it, it was reported by Irish Time and Independent around 8 weeks ago, have a google.

I found an article. As I suspected these numbers had been pulled out of a politician's ***, in this case the 150 million claim came from FG. Do you really think all of the migrants with children are even aware of these child benefits and all of these have dependent children living abroad? Most of this money isn't leaving Ireland but the hypemongerers would have you believe that. The article ended with:

The Government says the payments to children not resident here will not significantly add to the cost of the scheme.

Thanks for taking credit for all of the home built last year. How many exactly? All homes? by all Polish workers? Source please? I don't think you'll find one. Are you really suggesting that Polish workers built every single house in Ireland last year?

Of course I'm not claiming that all of the houses built in Ireland last year were built by Polish immigrants any more than someone could claim that Irish built Birmingham or Boston in the 80s, but if legal immigrants stopped working here (as illegal immigrants in the U.S. recently did), you'd see a bigger impact than you would during an average SIPTU strike. Without immigrant construction workers you'd either see higher house prices because supply of construction labor wouldn't meet demand, or the houses wouldn't be built. Immigrants are a convenient supply of tenants for speculative landlords. They seem to be less allergic to renting than the local population is.

And that all of the asking price of each house is a "contribution" to the Irish economy? You realise that that is 24 billion borrowed by Irish people primarily to purchase those homes? Stop using magic maths. What is a contribution?

To be honest it's difficult to talk about the housing sector of the Irish economy without using some magic maths, but I'll try. For the 24 billion the buyers got a roof over their head (or a rental investment) and the banks invest the money. Some of this money was returned to Irish businesses, but you're correct that some of it probably left Ireland. I suspect banks send far more than the mythical 150 Million abroad and no one raises an eyebrow.

My stamp duty windfall estimate was a bit high. FTBs are exempt, but they seem to be dropping out of the market recently and the average house stamp duty rate is now 6% which would still only amount to 1.44 Billion assuming every house built was average.

Give me numbers, not ideas. Give me facts and not suggestions.

Labling something as FACT: doesn't make it so. I could do it, but it might annoy other readers. Here are some from finfacts: http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006756.shtml

* In the second quarter of 2005, there were 242,000 people employed in the construction industry. Approximately 1 in 8 people (12.6%) employed in Ireland work in construction. This compares with an EU average of less than 8%.
* Of the 258,000 net increase in total persons at work between 2000 and 2005, over 76,000 (or 30%) were in the construction sector.
* It is estimated that there were over 25,000 non-Irish nationals working in the construction sector in the fourth quarter of 2005. They represented about 10% of the total number employed in construction. About 15,000 construction workers are from the former Accession States.

Whoops, I didn't overestimate the stamp duty kitty after all:

Stamp Duty exceeds €2 billion

* Stamp duty on property transactions amounted to €2 billion in 2005, a three fold increase in the three years since 2002. Three quarters of all revenue raised from stamp duty in 2005 related to property transactions.

O.K. 10% of the total employed in construction were immigrants.
Stamp duty amounted to 2 Billion.

Even if they didn't pay a cent in VAT or income tax, at the very least, immigrants contributed work which leads to 200,000,000 Euro in taxes.

But wait, there's more: http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10007496.shtml

Goodbody Strockbrokers says construction now amounts to more than 20% of Ireland's GDP.

10% of construction workers are immigrants and construction contributes 20% of the GDP.
The GDP was €161.6 bn in 2005, 20% of that is €32.2 billion. 10% of that is €3.2 Billion. So immigrant construction workers contributed about €3.2. billion to the Irish economy.

This is in a tangent to the original argument I had - that Poland has a population 10 times that of Ireland, yet Ireland is supporting children in POland without any minimum residence requirement of the parents in Ireland...

I'd love to see the actual number who are sending child support abroad to Poland. It's certainly not 10 million. The FG politician or broadsheet journalist just wanted to stir people and it worked! It always works. If you can dig up a reference to actual numbers amounting to 150 million, I'll cave and end this subthread but I'm quite confident that its a sham.

It is NOT about the "economy" - a vacuous and ambiguous term. I am talking population numbers because that is what is relevant - a much smaller country supporting a much larger country, and only the UK and Sweden are the only other EU countries to have such a ridiculous situation when services in the home country are so poor.

Guess which economy the following numbers belong to:
Public finance:
Revenues €42.1 billion (2005 est.)
Revenues €44.3 billion (2006)

One belongs to Ireland, the other belongs to Poland. Population is a red herring as Ireland is not supporting the entire country of Poland. Polish individuals who work in Ireland are supporting themselves and in what I believe are rare cases some of their taxes are redirected back to a child in their homeland. What would people here think of as a fair solution? Should Ireland work out a benefits sharing agreement with EU states so that a benefit payable to a child would be paid by the local government at the local rate? If so, should the worker also be able to pay taxes to his home country instead of to Ireland? I believe such a system would be O.K. in principle, but adding a level of bureacracy in order to prevent a handful of individuals from sending money to their children abroad is the kind of thing that will contribute to bloat and inefficiency in government and won't help immigrants or Irish nationals.

Zombrex

GarraiGamhain wrote:

You show me one legitimate refugee in Ireland. Where is he/she from? Why didn;t they go accross the border to the country beside them. Why did they decide on a faraway island nation like Ireland? A proper refugee doesn't book flights months in advance to escape war/persecution.

More nonsense

The world wide refugee system would fall over if every refugee simply went to the country beside them. As Jordan who has taken in close to 2 million Iraqis and is begging other countries to take some of them

This "not our problem" attitude that some Irish have to world events is not only seriously lacking in morality it is also ridiculous from purely a practical position. There are countries that handle far more refugees than us, who are actually pushed to real strain (not just the annoyance of seeing black people on the bus in the morning) yet we still complain about the trickle we get

And to answer you questions I know 2 asylum seekers, a brother and sister. They came here because they had family here (if you were a refugee would you not go to a country where you had family). One of them has been approved, the other is still being processed.

I don't know them very well but I promise I will sit them down and quiz them about the details of their travel here because you have a bee in your bonnet over refugees.

Zambia

GarraiGamhain wrote:

I don't hate foreign people. I just don't like being taken for a ride by them and feeling pressurised to say nothing because I don't want to appear racist.

You are quite free to air these opinions but please try and back up the statement with some proof for example the statement

"There is not one asylum seeker who is not a fraud" You simply cant back that up with anything.

dochasach

GarraiGamhain wrote:

You show me one legitimate refugee in Ireland. Where is he/she from? Why didn;t they go accross the border to the country beside them. Why did they decide on a faraway island nation like Ireland? A proper refugee doesn't book flights months in advance to escape war/persecution.

Those who review refugee status and have much better knowledge of individual situations disagree with you and accept some refugees as legitimate.

According to the 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, a refugee is a person who
“ owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country. ”

I don't see anything in that convention that forbids the use of air travel for "proper refugees". Where would refugees from Cuba, Haiti, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia be if they had to walk to bordering countries to be considered legitimate?

Gobán Saor

Interesting post - yes, there are indeed some urban myths but there also is at least a grain of truth in some of them.

dochasach wrote:

Myth #1: "You can arrive from africa or eastern europe and claim political asylum and get a free house, car, the lot. But if you are Irish, born, bred and reared and are down on your luck you get nothing."

Reality: You can arive from africa or wherever and immediately claim asylum. Even if there is no substance whatsoever to your claim. While awaiting assessment, you will be accommodated, fed, and given complete medical and dental care. Your children will be educated. All free.
Your claim will be assessed to see if it is valid. If it's rejected, you have a right of appeal. If you lose your appeal, you can apply for permision to stay anyway. If you still fail, you can try a High Court Appeal or seek a judicial review.
The government has set up the RLS (Refugee Legal Service) to help you advance your claim every step of the way. Needless to say this is free too.
If you're successful at any stage, you're in. Forever. Complete with spouse, dependents etc. For the rest of your life, you will be entitled to a house, an income, free medical and dental care, education to third level for you and your children. The supplementary welfare system will provide furniture, TV and electrical goods but, yes, it will not stretch to a car. Not so much a myth as a slight exageration.

dochasach wrote:

Myth #2: "You can get automatic citizenship by having a child here."

As far as I know, this has never been true. It certainly isn't true now and the more we spread the word around the world, the less likely people will come here thinking this is the case. he problem is, as recently as early 2007, RTE (Ireland's tax subsidized national T.V. station) was still reporting this myth as fact. The citizenship referendum (voted by a majority, understood by a minority), did nothing but remove the automatic citizenship right of children born in Ireland. The parents never had that right.

Technically a myth but used to be true in practise. The reality was that children born in Ireland were entitled to citizenship. A practise had grown up whereby the parents of such children were allowed stay indefinitely and receive al the benefits listed above. Naturally this became an attractive option and led to the upsurge in non-national births. It was a reasonable presumption that many of these births were planned to happen in Ireland solely for the purpose of acquiring citizenship for the child and residency for the parents. It was hotly denied at the time (by the pro-imigration lobby) that this was happening but facts would seem to bear this out as the number of such births has now dropped dramatically.

dochasach wrote:

Myth #4: "Immigrants can get automatic citizenship by marrying an Irish person."

Used to be true. Again needed to be changed to counter abuse.

dochasach wrote:

Myth #7: "Immigrants are the cause of our high traffic fatailty rate." Traffic fatalities are actually lower than they were years before the immigrants came. Many countries where these immigrants come from have lower traffic fatality rates than here. The problem we're a 1st world country with a 4th world road infrastructure, and we drive too fast.

You're mising the point. Overall fatalities have fallen for all sorts of reasons. Yes we drive too fast and the roads are poor but these factors should effect native and immigrant alike. There still seems ito be a disproportionate level of accidents involving immigrant drivers.

dochasach wrote:

Myth #8: "Immigrants are the reason our hospitals are full, especially our maternity hospitals."

The Irish birth rate was actually higher in the 80s than it is now. Of the 4 immigrants in Holles when our child was born, two of them were Philipinos, a nurse and an obstetrician. The problem is really mismanagement of the resources we have.

Reality: This may be a myth now but there was a period before the citizenship referendum when it WAS true. It was common for expectant mothers to turn up in the late stages of pregnancy complete with a file of medical records and scans.


So you see. Most of the "myths" have (or had) at least some reality, often based on abuse and manipulation of the system by non-genuine asylum seekers. Is it any wonder that this behaviour was resented by the natives?

Zambia

That was a good post.

Fratton Fred

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Reality: You can arive from africa or wherever and immediately claim asylum. Even if there is no substance whatsoever to your claim. While awaiting assessment, you will be accommodated, fed, and given complete medical and dental care. Your children will be educated. All free.
Your claim will be assessed to see if it is valid. If it's rejected, you have a right of appeal. If you lose your appeal, you can apply for permision to stay anyway. If you still fail, you can try a High Court Appeal or seek a judicial review.
The government has set up the RLS (Refugee Legal Service) to help you advance your claim every step of the way. Needless to say this is free too.
If you're successful at any stage, you're in. Forever. Complete with spouse, dependents etc. For the rest of your life, you will be entitled to a house, an income, free medical and dental care, education to third level for you and your children. The supplementary welfare system will provide furniture, TV and electrical goods but, yes, it will not stretch to a car. Not so much a myth as a slight exageration.

very generous indeed. Trouble is, there will be genuine refugees who should be awarded protection, however as soon as one person abuses it (and I am sure there are many) the immediate reaction is everyone is abusing it.

Gobán Saor

Fratton Fred wrote:

very generous indeed. Trouble is, there will be genuine refugees who should be awarded protection, however as soon as one person abuses it (and I am sure there are many) the immediate reaction is everyone is abusing it.

You're quite right. I agree entirely we have duties towards genuine refugees. However, most asylum sekers are actually economic migrants. Now, there's nothing wrong with being an economic migrant - it's a very sensible course of action if you are unhappy with your prospects at home. But we don't realy have an economic migrant system in Ireland. So we force the economic migrants to pretend to be asylum seekers. And we pretend to believe them. Then we set up this ridiculous infrastructure to assess their status. Naturally people see through the pretence and it is this that generates the ill-feeling towards the genuine refugees.

Zombrex

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Reality: You can arive from africa or wherever and immediately claim asylum. Even if there is no substance whatsoever to your claim.

How do we differentiate between those with a genuine claim and those without one on the spot?

Gob&#225 wrote: »

While awaiting assessment, you will be accommodated, fed, and given complete medical and dental care. Your children will be educated. All free.

Asylum seekers cannot work. The alternative to this set up is that they are homeless and unable to feed themselves. Which I think we both agree isn't an option.

Asylum seekers are put in temporary accommodation in the same way that a homeless person is. Its not exactly the Ritz. They are feed because people gave out about them being given money for food.

Asylum seekers can get a medical card if they qualify for it the same as any poor Irish person. If they are means tested and it turns out they have access to money they won't get this. The ones that do have to sit behind waiting lists and shoddy public health care just like everyone else.

Again, just like the accommodation issue, the reason is that the alternative is to just let them get sick and hope for the best, which again isn't an option.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

The government has set up the RLS (Refugee Legal Service) to help you advance your claim every step of the way. Needless to say this is free too.

The Refugee Legal Service is means tested and it is not free.

http://www.ria.gov.ie/the_asylum_process/the_refugee_legal_service/

Gob&#225 wrote: »

If you're successful at any stage, you're in. Forever.

Again what is the alternative?

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Complete with spouse, dependents etc.

A successful refugee must apply to the Minister for Justice for family members to remain here. It is no automatic.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

For the rest of your life, you will be entitled to a house, an income, free medical and dental care, education to third level for you and your children.

Nonsense

Once a refugee has been granted asylum they become part of the normal workforce system. They get what any normal Irish person gets. They are not set up for life.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

The supplementary welfare system will provide furniture, TV and electrical goods but, yes, it will not stretch to a car.

It also won't stretch to furniture, a TV or electrical goods

"Exceptional Needs Payments" can be given to refugees who are still being processed, but as it says these are for "exceptional needs". TVs aren't covered, neither are hair cuts or children's toys or "entertainment money".

Examples of what are covered are things like children's nappies, children's clothes etc. All these have to be assessed by the HSE and must be justified as being exceptional circumstances. If you don't need it you aren't given it.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

It was a reasonable presumption that many of these births were planned to happen in Ireland solely for the purpose of acquiring citizenship for the child and residency for the parents.

Half right.

In general (obviously not always) the goal wasn't residency for the parents, the goal was citizenship for the child within the EU so that the child could work in the EU when he grew up.

Similar things take place in the USA. For example Bruce Lee was born in San Fransisco. His parents left straight after he was born, but he had the option to return to work there, which obviously he did.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Is it any wonder that this behaviour was resented by the natives?

The issue isn't abusers being resented by the "natives" the issue is the natives resenting the entire system because of the perception that everyone is abusing the system.

dochasach

Good post, I appreciate that this thread has stayed fairly clean and civil. I still stand by my assertion that most of my "myths" are both well ingrained, and false.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Interesting post - yes, there are indeed some urban myths but there also is at least a grain of truth in some of them.

Reality: You can arive from africa or wherever and immediately claim asylum. Even if there is no substance whatsoever to your claim. While awaiting assessment, you will be accommodated, fed, and given complete medical and dental care. Your children will be educated. All free.

Your claim will be assessed to see if it is valid. If it's rejected, you have a right of appeal. If you lose your appeal, you can apply for permision to stay anyway. If you still fail, you can try a High Court Appeal or seek a judicial review.
The government has set up the RLS (Refugee Legal Service) to help you advance your claim every step of the way. Needless to say this is free too.
If you're successful at any stage, you're in. Forever. Complete with spouse, dependents etc. For the rest of your life, you will be entitled to a house, an income, free medical and dental care, education to third level for you and your children. The supplementary welfare system will provide furniture, TV and electrical goods but, yes, it will not stretch to a car. Not so much a myth as a slight exageration.

Slight exageration to say they get a free house and car? That's like saying criminals housed at mountjoy "own" property worth millions in central Dublin. Here is a quote from a government website trying to address the same myths:

http://www.ria.gov.ie/coming_to_ireland_as_an_asylum_seeker/
"You will be expected to remain in the accommodation centre to which you are dispersed until your application has been fully processed, including any appeal period if applicable. You may only move from this accommodation with the permission of the Reception and Integration Agency and only in circumstances where the Agency is in a position to offer you alternative accommodation....

Rent supplements are no longer payable to asylum seekers. Therefore, under no circumstances will you be granted any State supports to acquire rented accommodation. You must remain within the 'Direct Provision' scheme until you are granted refugee status, leave to remain or, if your application for refugee status is unsuccessful, until you are deported...

# You will not be allowed to seek or enter employment while your application for refugee status is being processed.
# You will not be allowed to carry on any business, trade or profession while your application is being processed.
# You will not be entitled to third level education or to vocational training while your application is being processed.
"

Technically a myth but used to be true in practise. The reality was that children born in Ireland were entitled to citizenship. A practise had grown up whereby the parents of such children were allowed stay indefinitely and receive al the benefits listed above. Naturally this became an attractive option and led to the upsurge in non-national births. It was a reasonable presumption that many of these births were planned to happen in Ireland solely for the purpose of acquiring citizenship for the child and residency for the parents. It was hotly denied at the time (by the pro-imigration lobby) that this was happening but facts would seem to bear this out as the number of such births has now dropped dramatically.

The "grain of truth" here is theoretical, I reiterate that parents of Irish born children did not have automatic citizenship rights before the referendum. As recently as January 2007 RTE was still reporting that they did, it was a common assumption which led to the overwhelming referendum vote to remove the child's citizenship right and remains a common assumption today.

Does anyone have clear statistics on either the "upsurge in (foreign) births" or the "recent drop"? I would have thought these would have been presented around the time of the citizenship vote but it appeared to be legislation by anecdote. As it happens, the number of asylum seekers worldwide has dropped in the past couple of years so any drop in birth rates of asylum seekers in Ireland might have nothing to do with changes in Irish law.

You're mising the point. Overall fatalities have fallen for all sorts of reasons. Yes we drive too fast and the roads are poor but these factors should effect native and immigrant alike. There still seems ito be a disproportionate level of accidents involving immigrant drivers.

Does anyone have statistics or are we relying again relying on anecdotes from (possibly biased) gardi? I can be convinced on this one but until I see the data, I'm still calling it an urban myth.

Reality: This may be a myth now but there was a period before the citizenship referendum when it WAS true. It was common for expectant mothers to turn up in the late stages of pregnancy complete with a file of medical records and scans.

How common? If immigrant birthrate was a crucial problem and it has fallen significantly, why are the hospitals as much at crises today as they were in 2003?

So you see. Most of the "myths" have (or had) at least some reality, often based on abuse and manipulation of the system by non-genuine asylum seekers. Is it any wonder that this behaviour was resented by the natives?

I've often wondered why these myths were so hard to shake and why public policy is often directed by anecdotes about immigrants and ignores real problems faced by this minority. I suspect the answer lies in the fact that it is easy for people to develop a habit of playing the part of a victim. When you're a member of the majority in a free country, one of the most prosperous societies the world has ever known who do you blame when something goes wrong? In a culture of victimization, it's far easier to blame newcomers than it is to accept responsibility for bad roads, bad hospitals, bad water purification...