Explanation of PR

Benedict XVI

Now that the election campaign has started can some one pleases post a simple informative explanation of Proportional Representation with Single Transferable Vote in Multi-seat constituencies.

Every time a GE comes around I realize I forgot all I learned about how it works.

DMC

Last GE, Wikipedia wasnt around

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote

mike65

Thank God for wiki cos anyone here who tried to get it down pat is bound to get some aspect wrong!

Mike.

Agent J

Its pretty straight forward.

Assume 1000 votes are left after spoils.(ie Total vaild poll)

Quota is set at 50% + 1 = 501. ( 50% + 1 of vaild poll).

Count the votes and 1st one to cross the quota is deemed elected.

If no-one reaches quota on the 1st count then you drop out whomever had the lowest number of No 1 votes and move to No2 for those votes and add them back into the pile and go again.

Repeat until x amount of people cross Quota.

Where x is number of seats.

Dontico

How my history teacher explain it to me why are way is better than the english way.

Party A gets 40%, Party B gets 30% Party C gets 30%.

In english system, Party A wins the seat. But thats not very democratic.

In irish system. If all of Party C's second preferances get moved to Party B. Party B gets 60% and wins.

In 1958 and 1968, FF campaigned to changed the system. FG stoped them everytime.

Agent J

Dontico wrote:

How my history teacher explain it to me why are way is better than the english way.

Party A gets 40%, Party B gets 30% Party C gets 30%.

In english system, Party A wins the seat. But thats not very democratic.

In irish system. If all of Party C's second preferances get moved to Party B. Party B gets 60% and wins.

In 1958 and 1968, FF campaigned to changed the system. FG stoped them everytime.

And thank gods they did.

Time Magazine

Agent J wrote:

Quota is set at 50% + 1 = 501. ( 50% + 1 of vaild poll).

Not for a constituency with five seats it isn't.

Quota is kinda like (votes / seats).

copacetic

Agent J wrote:

Its pretty straight forward.

Assume 1000 votes are left after spoils.(ie Total vaild poll)

Quota is set at 50% + 1 = 501. ( 50% + 1 of vaild poll).

Count the votes and 1st one to cross the quota is deemed elected.

If no-one reaches quota on the 1st count then you drop out whomever had the lowest number of No 1 votes and move to No2 for those votes and add them back into the pile and go again.

Repeat until x amount of people cross Quota.

Where x is number of seats.

thats not quite right, our quotas are never 50%.
if x is the number of seats and x is > 1 as it is in every case in ireland the quota is always (votes/x+1)+1

Agent J

I put my hands up.

I've only ever worked on SU elections which only had one position and the last By election in Kildare north where it was only one seat. I never had 1st hand experience with multi seats.

So if its 5 seats its

Vaild Poll / Seats + 1 = Quota?

I must say im not a fan of the multi seat set up.

Time Magazine

Agent J wrote:

So if its 5 seats its

Vaild Poll / Seats + 1 = Quota?

If it's 5 seats the Quota = (Valid Poll / 6)+1. It's it's 3 seats it's Quota = (Valid Poll / 4) + 1.

I must say im not a fan of the multi seat set up.

It's far more proportional than first past the post.

Chakar

However the size of the constituencies can be biased, to the larger parties due to the need for the constituencies be sizable in order to achieve proportionality.

ballooba

Chakar wrote:

However the size of the constituencies can be biased, to the larger parties due to the need for the constituencies be sizable in order to achieve proportionality.

That's because your party refused to redraw them. Thus jeopardising the election and potentially wasting more money.

Are you sure you're a member of Ógra? Sometimes you jump in with both feet. It's great.

Time Magazine

ballooba wrote:

That's because your party refused to redraw them. Thus jeopardising the election and potentially wasting more money.

Are you sure you're a member of Ógra? Sometimes you jump in with both feet. It's great.

Zing!

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

That's because your party refused to redraw them. Thus jeopardising the election and potentially wasting more money.

Are you sure you're a member of Ógra? Sometimes you jump in with both feet. It's great.

You misunderstand me. The size of the constituencies are based on the need to achieve proportionality in the electoral system of proportional representation by a single transferable vote. I wasn't talking about the need to redraw the constituencies as per the census. This thread is discussing the Irish electoral system and I was simply stating a fact. Perhaps I should have elaborated more on what I meant. And yes I'm a member of FF.

ballooba

Are you suggesting that the under representation and over representation of certain groups of citizens is not relevant to the PR system?

highlight100

But if nobody reaches the quota on the first count,then the lowest in the poll is elinimated.That i understand.
But is it true that on the second count,only the second prefs of the ELINIMATED candidate are counted to decide where the transfers should go?
And so on and so forth?

E92

Fianna Fáil are very skilled to give them their due. Very skilled at talking through their a**e that is. As we know, Cork airport was supposed to start life off as debt free. Now, of course Cork Airport will start off with a €100 million debt. Thats yet another broken promise you might say, and its true. But lo and behold, as a resident in the constituency where the airport is located, what do we get from Feel and Fail(and the PDs too, as I've mentioned in another thread)? Well theres a big huge article in their election leaflets telling us what a tragedy this is(that the airport is not debt free) and making a big song and dance and saying boo-hoo to Séamus Brennan and how bad he was and how bad the Dept of Transport is for reversing their decision. Do they honestly think that the public are so stupid that they wont realise that FF and the PDs were the parties that allowed the situation to arise in the first place?

Oh and what do people think of the crowd who were proclaiming their ''superior'' ability to be prudent, and then had their big announcement on an SSIA type pensions thing(not 100% sure on the specifics), which surprise, surprise was announced uncosted today? Or the party which cut a press conference short because they were asked some'akward' questions yesterday about health(FF in both cases)?

ballooba

That would be my understanding of the single transferable vote. Your first preference has no chance, so your vote is transferred to your second preference. Your vote is transferred until it gives someone their quota.

gilroyb

Here's a copy of a section of a response to an earlier thread about how the transfers work,

As for the system itself, it is a bit more complicated. The country is broken down into constituencies. These constituencies each have between three and five members of parliament. When the votes are counted, the candidates are ranked in order of the number of first preference votes they get. If a candidate happens to pass the quota at this stage, (the number of votes that that particular constituency has as the benchmark for election, is a function of the number of votes and the number of seats), then they are deemed elected. Candidates who pass the quota will have their 'surplus' votes distributed among the remaining candidates. If there are more candidates than there are seats available, and all the seats have not been filled, then the candidate with the lowest number of votes will be eliminated. This candidates votes will be distributed depending on the second preference of the particular voter (It is possible that some voters only marked their first choice, so these votes will have no further effect). The remaining candidates are now ranked according to the number of votes they now have of those cast.

This process continues, candidates move towards the quota. If they pass it, their surplus is distributed among the rest of the field. The bottom candidate is eliminated and their votes are also distributed. The distribution of votes works the same way for all votes, the vote goes to the highest preference available (I.E. the most preferred candidate of the various candidates still in the race).

the thread is http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055063410

oscarBravo

E92 wrote:

Fianna Fáil are very skilled to give them their due. Very skilled at talking through their a**e that is. As we know, Cork airport was supposed to start life off as debt free. Now, of course Cork Airport will start off with a €100 million debt. Thats yet another broken promise you might say, and its true. But lo and behold, as a resident in the constituency where the airport is located, what do we get from Feel and Fail(and the PDs too, as I've mentioned in another thread)? Well theres a big huge article in their election leaflets telling us what a tragedy this is(that the airport is not debt free) and making a big song and dance and saying boo-hoo to Séamus Brennan and how bad he was and how bad the Dept of Transport is for reversing their decision. Do they honestly think that the public are so stupid that they wont realise that FF and the PDs were the parties that allowed the situation to arise in the first place?

Oh and what do people think of the crowd who were proclaiming their ''superior'' ability to be prudent, and then had their big announcement on an SSIA type pensions thing(not 100% sure on the specifics), which surprise, surprise was announced uncosted today? Or the party which cut a press conference short because they were asked some'akward' questions yesterday about health(FF in both cases)?

I'm at a loss as to how this relates to the thread topic.

mikedragon32

Normally when voting I tend to vote the whole way down the order, with the exception of those I don't want to vote for at all (eg: If I don't want Dick Roche to be elected, but there's 14 other candidates, I'll vote 1 - 14 in order of preference, then just not bother giving Roche my 15th preference*).

Someone suggested to me that it's better to vote the whole way down your preferences rather than to not give someone a preference - so in my example, that would mean it's more effective to give Roche my 15th preference.

Could this be correct?

*This is an example. Doesn't necessarily reflect how I intend to vote.

Time Magazine

mikedragon32 wrote:

Normally when voting I tend to vote the whole way down the order, with the exception of those I don't want to vote for at all (eg: If I don't want Dick Roche to be elected, but there's 14 other candidates, I'll vote 1 - 14 in order of preference, then just not bother giving Roche my 15th preference*).

Someone suggested to me that it's better to vote the whole way down your preferences rather than to not give someone a preference - so in my example, that would mean it's more effective to give Roche my 15th preference.

Could this be correct?

*This is an example. Doesn't necessarily reflect how I intend to vote.

Well firstly, realistically there's no chance your vote will be transferred 15 times. If the quota is 100 votes, and Mr. X gets 110 first preferences, only the surplus 10 will be transferred. If Mrs. Y gets 5 of these second preferences, and she only needs 4 to be elected, only one of the votes will be transferred on. And so on.

If you don't want a candidate to be elected, do not give them a preference. This applies to me and Sinn Féin. If you don't mind a candidate being selected, but he'd be your last choice, there's no great harm giving him your number 15. It'd be a bit strange though, because if he's last you want people above him to be elected first. By not voting for him as number 15 you help ensure that someone else gets elected, which would appear to be your desire on account of him being last.

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

Are you suggesting that the under representation and over representation of certain groups of citizens is not relevant to the PR system?

No.

ballooba

Chakar wrote:

No.

Then it is relevant. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nice complete answer. Perhaps you should retreat back to the "green zone" now.

Wicklow Boy

With regard to the thread about whether you should vote all the way down the ticket I believe that you should if you have a vested interest in who you do NOT want elected.
If there are only 3 candidates left with one seat to be filled then the lowest remaining candidate is eliminated and their votes are distributed between the last 2. Most of these votes will have been number 1's for the candidate so the counters look at no 2 and see he is elected, his no's 3 4 and 5 are all eliminated so the next VALID preference is his 6th preference which is for Roche (as per example) and he will get the vote.
In fact the benefit of this I saw in 1992 in Wicklow when there were 19 candidates on the ticket and in the final distribution between Dick Roche and Johnny Fox i saw several votes with 18 Fox and 19 Roche and vice versa so the voter was making a preference which may have been who they did NOT want elected.
If the vote was perhaps a transfer from another candidate e.g was a 3rd preference of an eliminated candidate then the counters look at the next valid preference below the eliminated candidate.
So if you do not want a Sinn Fein or Green Party candidate elected as someone said earlier you should vote all the way down the ticket in case your vote goes dead and you have allowed someobe to be elected by NOT declaring a preference.

If you by accident vote 1, 2 and then give number 3 to 2 candidates then your vote will be valid for one and 2 but will become non transferrable at 3.

I will later give an explanation of why you should never just vote number 1 only for someone who you know will be elected by a huge majority on the first count e.g. Bertie Aherne or Willie O'Dea who get huge majorities

highlight100

Wicklow Boy wrote:

With regard to the thread about whether you should vote all the way down the ticket I believe that you should if you have a vested interest in who you do NOT want elected.
If there are only 3 candidates left with one seat to be filled then the lowest remaining candidate is eliminated and their votes are distributed between the last 2. Most of these votes will have been number 1's for the candidate so the counters look at no 2 and see he is elected, his no's 3 4 and 5 are all eliminated so the next VALID preference is his 6th preference which is for Roche (as per example) and he will get the vote.
In fact the benefit of this I saw in 1992 in Wicklow when there were 19 candidates on the ticket and in the final distribution between Dick Roche and Johnny Fox i saw several votes with 18 Fox and 19 Roche and vice versa so the voter was making a preference which may have been who they did NOT want elected.
If the vote was perhaps a transfer from another candidate e.g was a 3rd preference of an eliminated candidate then the counters look at the next valid preference below the eliminated candidate.
So if you do not want a Sinn Fein or Green Party candidate elected as someone said earlier you should vote all the way down the ticket in case your vote goes dead and you have allowed someobe to be elected by NOT declaring a preference.

If you by accident vote 1, 2 and then give number 3 to 2 candidates then your vote will be valid for one and 2 but will become non transferrable at 3.

I will later give an explanation of why you should never just vote number 1 only for someone who you know will be elected by a huge majority on the first count e.g. Bertie Aherne or Willie O'Dea who get huge majorities

So would that mean if you wanted for example in Bertie Ahern's Constituencie,(presuming he is the poll topper returning with a surplus),
The Labour candidate first and the Green candidate second to get in,but not the Sinn Fein candidate.Would you would be better off give Sinn Fein no 2 on the ballot as only Aherne's number two's would be transfered? And then give the Green candidate 8 or 9 in pref's hopeing they get a share of the Labour candidates votes when they are either elinimated or elected at that point?

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

Then it is relevant. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nice complete answer. Perhaps you should retreat back to the "green zone" now.

You're trying to confuse the issue albeit unsuccessfully. In the case of the constituency being redrawn, it would still have to be quite sizable due to the PR STV electoral system pursuant to the constitutional provision for 30,000 people per TD.

PR STV is the reason why we have multi-seat constituencies with a minimum of three seats in each constituency. Thus as the population increases a Constituency Commission as ordered by the Minister for Environment from time to time, can increase the number of seats in each constituency to the maximum of five seats. However the population increases above the constitutional provision 30,000 people per TD with the rule of a maximum of five seats in any constituency, the boundaries of the constituency will have to be redrawn.

ballooba

I'm not confusing the issue at all. Why would you enter a discussion on a topic where you cannot defend the reprehensible decisions your party has
made. It's like ninety99er giving out about VRT. Gerrymandering is very relevant to a discussion on Proportional Representation.

If you are going to a member of a party then it should be because of it's policies and not because you have a family background, there's a girl you like in it or you like the logo.

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

I'm not confusing the issue at all. Why would you enter a discussion on a topic where you cannot defend the reprehensible decisions your party has made. It's like ninety99er giving out about VRT. Gerrymandering is very relevant to a discussion on Proportional Representation.

If you are going to a member of a party then it should be because of it's policies and not because you have a family background, there's a girl you like in it or you like the logo.

Gerrymandering doesn't happen in Ireland since the establishment of the Constituency Commission under the Electoral Act 1997. Furthermore the preliminary census figures could not constitutionally be used to revise constituencies. A minimum of six months is needed for the Commission to do its work so by the time the final census figures came out in April 2007 it was too late to establish the commission with the forthcoming election.

Also just to clarify I'm a member of Fianna Fáil because I believe in the party and its policies. I think they have done a good job in government. I hope they can continue their work in government after the election. But sure there's a good few lookers in my cumann.;)

ballooba

Chakar wrote:

Furthermore the preliminary census figures could not constitutionally be used to revise constituencies.

That's for the courts to decide. I believe it just suited tricky dicky to keep them as they are.

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

That's for the courts to decide. I believe it just suited tricky dicky to keep them as they are.

This advice, which happened to be given to the Government by the Attorney General of Ireland. We should hear about the result of the court case soon enough as apparently its going to be heard before the election.

ballooba

Chakar wrote:

This advice, which happened to be given to the Government by the Attorney General of Ireland.

The AG at the end of the day, like your fearless leader, is only human and can make mistakes.

Chakar

ballooba wrote:

The AG at the end of the day, like your fearless leader, is only human and can make mistakes.

Well we'll see won't we.

GreeBo

Im confused:

Say you have two people, Bill and Bob.
Bill votes 1-10 for his preferences, putting X as number 1 and Y as number 2.
Bob votes 1 and also puts X as his number 1.

Bills vote is used and his number 1 gets a seat.
When i comes to "use" Bobs vote since his number 1 is already voted in they look at his subsequent votes right?
But he doesnt have any so what happens to his vote?

Doesnt it make more sense to first "use" the ballots that only have 1 candidate, working your way through them, then onto the ballots with 2 preferences etc.

Another way of asking the same question, if X needs 100 votes to get a seat and he get 110 votes, which 10 ballots transferred?

Wicklow Boy

The most important thing to remember is that your vote can only be used once. If both Vote for X and X gets exactly the quota required their second preferences are never looked at as in effect their first preference vote has been utililsed.

If The quota is 1000 and X gets 1100 then there is a surplus to be distributed of 100 votes as only 1000 are needed to elect X. All 1100 votes are checked for number 2's and the 100 votes are distributed proportionally (See anomaly below)by precentage of number 2's . So if Z gets 51% of X's number 2's he willl get 51 of the 100 votes

Which 51? This is the controversial area but what happens is that all votes when sorted are randomized into pigeon holes to mix them up and taken and put into bundles of 50 for the candidate. If candidate X has 100 surplus then 100 votes are taken from his 1100 which would be about 2 from the top of each seperate bundle to maintain randomness.

Even in a recount these bundles are not broken just rechecked so that there is no such thing as a recount in the hope that there would be a different lottery result!!!!

The anomaly with surpluses is that if there are votes with no second preferences then these are NOT COUNTED when checking the proportions!!!!!! So if in the example of 1100 votes checked for number 2, if 300 are non transferable and candidate Z gets 400 votes then 50 votes (i,e, 400/800) are transferred and NOT 400/1100 as you might think. I have always argued that this gives an unfair advantage some candidates as it does not carry out the wishes of the voter as indicated on the ballot paper but it is the correct way to distribute surpluses as per the electoral act!!!