What will SF do for me?

johnnyskeleton

Generally do not believe anything that is contained in a manifesto from a political party - in my view they will promise you the world to get your vote. I would also ask that if someone has a criticism of SF they post it here and not in this thread.

So my questions are:
1) what do SF stand for in this election,
2)and what will they do for me (the man on the street)?

Kristopherus

S.F.A on both counts. What else could you expect from a shower of terrorists who don't know what democracy is & will intimidate the electorate to vote for very empty promises, wherever they can. Steer clear. Any of the other shower is a far better option.

johnnyskeleton

I'm trying to find out what their general policies are, because otherwise I don't think I can make an informed decision about them.

There is another thread on this forum which discusses such matters, and also media bias against SF, but I just want to get an idea of what they propose to do if they get into government/a position of power.

mikemac

I work in the IFSC and I'm not naive enough to think that companies are based here for our educated work force, facilites, etc.
Number one reason is tax, pure and simple.

If Sinn Fein raise corporation tax, have they realy factored in that some companies may leave.
I'm not saying that the IFSC will shut overnight but it's working well, so leave it be. If Sinn Fein get into power and I lose my job-that's my concern.

Edit: OP- I've edited out the second half of my post to match your thread

stepbar

What / Who does SF stand for? To the minds of many it would be Socialism and social inclusion etc, people who feel marginalised and disillusioned with mainstream politics. In reality SF stands for everything and stands for nothing. Its votes that count. If there was a minority of people who wanted Ireland to send a man to the moon, SF would represent them. You only have to look over to Mayo, where SF supporters have bullied their way into the protests over Shell. Soap box politics is all you could call it.

upmeath

stepbar wrote:

You only have to look over to Mayo, where SF supporters have bullied their way into the protests over Shell. Soap box politics is all you could call it.

True stepbar, I believe Labour were the first party to make a genuine case against Shell there but SF soon hopped on the bandwagon.
And their recent shift towards "green politics" - SF never seemed too green until the Greens started making big gains late last year.

iamhunted

as yet there doesnt seem to be a 2007 manifesto on their site but the 2002 one is at http://sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/19

I dont get a major socialism vibe off sinn fein, considering socialism is such a vast concept and covers many different theologies. I dont think they only represent, or mainly represent poor people - though I know that the local sinn fein fella does represent a lot of those less well off. This is probably because not too many other parties give a fig about them.

In the past few years (I know about quoting stats, but Im sure we can all agree on this) we all have seen foreign companies leave ireland - trek for example in carlow disappeared once the tax incentives ran their course - so its not something that isnt already happening. i think what sinn fein are trying to do is generate more home grown companies, which does have its merits. the whole thing in regards corporation tax all depends on exactly what kind of increases they mean. If a foreign company is making money here and are happy in ireland then they wont necessarily move if the corporation tax increases. unless of course they are more interested in profit and decide to move to one of the cheaper eastern european countries brought in by the nice treaty. kinda makes you wonder about the old nice treaty vote. on the other hand, if the increase is just silly, then yes - that would be worrying.

back to the op though - I cant seem to find a 2007 manifesto that outlines exactly what sinn fein are offering this time round ....

iamhunted

upmeath wrote:

True stepbar, I believe Labour were the first party to make a genuine case against Shell there but SF soon hopped on the bandwagon.
And their recent shift towards "green politics" - SF never seemed too green until the Greens started making big gains late last year.

honestly dont want to move off the topic, but I dont think sinn fein ever claimed to be the only party concerned with the case against shell, and - as far as Im aware anyway - they've had a green environmental slant at least since the last election.

from: http://sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/19#13

• Establishing "recycling and reuse" enterprises on a community and commercial basis locally and regionally, providing employment and efficient waste management;

upmeath

iamhunted wrote:

they've had a green environmental slant at least since the last election.

from: http://sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/19#13

I agree, let's not move off topic, but just to close that one off, recycling centres are a standard found on pretty much every party's manifesto now going back 15 years or more, just to show they have some level of environmental awareness to the electorate.
SF aren't entirely bad, their social policies are in line with those of the other socialist parties in the state, but when it comes to the economy and policing I'm not entirely buying what they have to offer.

zepp

good piece here.
http://iepolitics.typepad.com/iepolitics/2007/03/sinn_fin_party_.html

johnnyskeleton

iamhunted wrote:

as yet there doesnt seem to be a 2007 manifesto on their site but the 2002 one is at http://sinnfein.ie/elections/manifesto/19

I generally don't believe what is said in manifestos, because they are "all things to all men" if I can coin a phrase. But looking at that, it starts off with "It is a choice between Sinn Féin and all the rest", but then proceeds to go through fairly reasonable (and generic) stated aims. Many of their specific 2002 proposals were similar to what the last government actually did e.g. legal services ombudsman, rights of the child.

But a lot of it is the same old story e.g. health, education, tough stance on crime etc. In fact, NI aside, it seems almost identical to Labours "Pat's top 5" or whatever vacuous name they've given their manifesto.

As relative newcomers to the Irish political scene, I dont really get what their stick is. For the PDs it's low taxes big business, for FG it's middle class comfort, for FF it's keeping the party happy, for the Greens it's the environment and general hippiedom, for Labour it's public sector investment, for socialists it's tax the rich give to the poor.

So where SF fit in is where I'm having difficulty. They don't seem to be the such and such party (other than the obvious I mean).

upmeath

johnnyskeleton wrote:

for the Greens it's the environment and general hippiedom

General hippiedom? Clean, efficient and sustainable living would be a slightly more accurate interpretation of the party's concerns. I wouldn't have called myself a Green a year ago but I'm slowly buying into their ideals, if you look at Holland and Denmark, it's parties like the Greens and Labour in those countries that really make economies and societies work.
At the minute we're still at a stage in Ireland where the post-Civil War tiff is just about burnt out, we know which party thought what back in the 1920s and 1930s, but the older parties in Ireland (I know Labour is the oldest party in the state but they've moved with the times and the people!) need to get their fingers out and revamp their approach to politics completely, FF and FG simply aren't in touch with the rest of Europe. In fact they're not in touch with the electorate anymore. They almost expect people to vote for them based on what way their parents and grandparents voted. And chances are people will do that, sheepishly.

cuppa

well im never voting the greens,,,,they will put the price up on everything ,,thats whe green means to me ,,,cost more

Ulster9

Regarding Corporation Tax Sinn Fein is commited to not reduce corporation Tax any further.They have said they will not increase it.Other parties have suggested it is Sinn Fein policy to do so it other to scare people off.I can recall Labour actually suggesting increasing corporation tax a couple of years ago but it seems to me you can be sure none of the parties will do anything to jeopardise are competiveness regarding corporation tax.Sinn Fein is in favour of increasing Capital Gains and PRSI.I see nothing wrong with this as i want increased taxation in order to improve public services and infrastructure.At the moment the government seems to be banking all its money on property market and this cant go on.Whats the point in low personal taxes if everything else is going through the roof in prices and stealth taxes.
It is correct that Sinn Fein policies are similar to Labours but I believe they are more in touch with their electorate.I dont think Labour are wise to allign themselves with FG.Would left wing parties not be better working together to create an alternative government?
Sinn Fein also have a all-Ireland demension with a vision for a New Ireland which i find appealing.

Sinn Fein is in favour of increasing Capital Gains and PRSI.I see nothing wrong with this as i want increased taxation in order to improve public services and infrastructure.

Did you know that usually when you lower a tax you get increased revenue from it as it's an incentive for more earnings.

The opposite applies when you raise a tax.

There is a point below which lowering a tax has no more marginal effect.Thats why I'm opposed to lowering rates beyond what they are now or rising them.
If the revenue stream ain't broke theres no need to fix it.

It's what is done with the existing revenue thats important and thats where heads should be put together to change/improve policies in my opinion.It's where the problem lies.

Headlining rate reductions is lazy politics.Headlining rate rises is irresponsible politics.

You should let all politicians know this.

MrNuked

stepbar wrote:

What / Who does SF stand for?

Sinn Féin

Pyridine

Would left wing parties not be better working together to create an alternative government?

I suppose it's the old adage...The only thing a socialist hates more than a facist is another socialist, so I don't think that Sinn Féin and Labour will ever align.

Hagar

iamhunted wrote:

the local sinn fein fella does represent a lot of those less well off. This is probably because not too many other parties give a fig about them.

Therein lies the secret of their sucess. They represent the dis-enfranchised.

kmick

As regards raising or lowering taxes we have missed that boat. Our 12.5% rate is good when compared to other european countries but compared to the world we are losing that battle. Some countries offer 0% corporation tax. They are happy to have the wages/local economy boost. Probably unsustainable much like most of SF's non-existent 2007 policies. As regards the disenfranchised they usually don't even vote. SF has had some success there. it will be interesting to see if they can make any headway with the general working Joe who does vote for FF.

Hagar

kmick wrote:

As regards the disenfranchised they usually don't even vote. SF has had some success there. it will be interesting to see if they can make any headway with the general working Joe who does vote for FF.

Historically I think you're right about some social classes not voting, after all none of the big parties gave a tinker's dam about the less well off and still don't IMO. To give them credit where it's due they do seem to put in the work at the grassroots level. SF may win their support at the polls, they could well tap into a whole new type of voter, the people who line the corridors of our hospitals on trollies and are totally browned off at the way their life and prospects are now. You don't have to have great policies to offer, if your local SF man has worked on your behalf in the past when no one else was bothered you might well give him a shot at fixing things even if all he promises is "I'll do my best".

Liam Byrne

In all fairness, can ANYONE imagine SF being "tough on crime", considering their stance on Jerry McCabe, the Northern Bank robbery, etc ?

I mean, I can completely understand why the Unionists are wary of them - I don't trust them either, and I'm Irish! Mind you, I don't trust Bertie either:eek:

The North is different, though, since the people there voted out the middle-ground parties that didn't have an association with some dodgy crowd or other, so they have different rules.

I've said for years that I'd emigrate if SF got into power, since they're a million miles from my views on things; so are FF and the PDs, the way they've - ahem - "run" things, and now I'm getting stubborn in my old age and wondering if emigrating would be letting SF take over and give them a country at my expense.

brianthebard

Liam Byrne wrote:

In all fairness, can ANYONE imagine SF being "tough on crime", considering their stance on Jerry McCabe, the Northern Bank robbery, etc ?

I mean, I can completely understand why the Unionists are wary of them - I don't trust them either, and I'm Irish! Mind you, I don't trust Bertie either:eek:

Many Unionists would consider themselves Irish too you know.

Glenbhoy

Ulster9 wrote:

.Sinn Fein is in favour of increasing Capital Gains and PRSI.I see nothing wrong with this as i want increased taxation in order to improve public services and infrastructure.

So by increasing PRSI do they think that people won't realise that they've just increased income tax (by default)?? Why do parties come out with crap like this, do they think the electorate is totally stupid?? There is, and has been talk for some time of abolishing PRSI entirely and increasing income tax to make up the difference, that makes perfect sense for everyone from tax practitioner to the general public as a whole, as PRSI is probably the most complicated part of our tax code, mainly because it's been chopped and changed on a piecemeal basis over the years in a effort to hide increases in tax rates (the announcement by Biffo in the last budget of a new top rate of PRSI was a classic example of this - it took the revenue over a month to come up with a system of implementing his proposal).

Glenbhoy

brianthebard wrote:

Many Unionists would consider themselves Irish too you know.

I don't know too many offhand - maybe Eoghan Harris?

Judt

Problem with SF is that they're a commie (well, marxist) party. All this "IRA, not IRA" talk takes us away from the fact that they would, if put into power, move Ireland away from the free market economy that has worked so well for us these past 15 years.

If you raise corporation tax you get more money. But if the companies you want to tax leave the country, you get less money in the end. Simple math.

This whole thing about "Raise tax on business, raise social welfare" has been seen in... let me pick a country... France. 9% unemployment. Give me a break. Leaving aside the entire issue of Sinn Fein I Can't Believe It's Not Really The IRA for a moment, that economic issue is ultimately what will screw us up.

Kudos all the same to SF for their style - they, unlike many other parties, are very good at getting in on the ground and solving peoples immediate problems. All politics are local, at the end of the day. Problem is that if we elected them on a national level, we'd have a lot more local problems to solve...

Glenbhoy

Judt wrote:

Problem with SF is that they're a commie (well, marxist) party.

Is that not just the Stickies you're thinking of? I thought that was the main reason behind the split in the early 70's - officials were marxists and went on to form the worker party (glad there are no remnants of that party in a potential position of power eh??), and the provo's formed SF, who are ideologically socialist, but at the end of the day, don't really care as their politics have been traditionally sectarian and not ideological.

El Stuntman

Judt wrote:

Problem is that if we elected them on a national level, we'd have a lot more local problems to solve...

won't happen, end of

the middle class (vast majority of population) would never vote SF in any meaningful numbers

Judt

Glenbhoy wrote:

Is that not just the Stickies you're thinking of? I thought that was the main reason behind the split in the early 70's - officials were marxists and went on to form the worker party (glad there are no remnants of that party in a potential position of power eh??), and the provo's formed SF, who are ideologically socialist, but at the end of the day, don't really care as their politics have been traditionally sectarian and not ideological.

No, our current SF is a real left-wing deal. And their politics nowadays are about much more than the old crap. Elect them and they'll go left.

As for whether or not they could go into office, ultimately Ireland is a country full of parties who want power. If SF could be kingmaker I'd say they would have a shot at it. Worst case scenario, mind you.

Múinteoir

cuppa wrote:

well im never voting the greens,,,,they will put the price up on everything ,,thats whe green means to me ,,,cost more

Because of course, we all know how cheap the standard of living has gotten under this government. How high is inflation again at the moment? Over 5%?

El Stuntman

Judt wrote:

As for whether or not they could go into office, ultimately Ireland is a country full of parties who want power. If SF could be kingmaker I'd say they would have a shot at it. Worst case scenario, mind you.

could throw up some strange junior ministries

Martin Ferris = Minister for the Marine?? he has the experience

oscarBravo

Glenbhoy wrote:

I don't know too many offhand - maybe Eoghan Harris?

Edward Carson?

Judt

El Stuntman wrote:

could throw up some strange junior ministries

Martin Ferris = Minister for the Marine?? he has the experience

At least if we become a target for (foreign) terrorists we'll have a government that knows what it's about. (We could make these jokes all day.)

Glenbhoy

oscarBravo wrote:

Edward Carson?

true, as were many of his ilk, however, we can't really speak of him in the present tense.

stepbar

MrNuked wrote:

Sinn Féin

postcount +1

stepbar

El Stuntman wrote:

could throw up some strange junior ministries

Martin Ferris = Minister for the Marine?? he has the experience

Naw, Minister for Transport or the RSA. Ideal.......

johnnyskeleton

stepbar wrote:

Naw, Minister for Transport or the RSA. Ideal.......

Can Aengus Ó Snodaigh be Minister for Intelligence?

El Stuntman

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Can Aengus Ó Snodaigh be Minister for Intelligence?

Caoimhin O'Caoilin (why can't they use the names they were born with btw? it's like Malcolm X) would make a good Minister for Finance, all sorts of experience with raising funds...

again, we could do this all day. it's fun

Glenbhoy

El Stuntman wrote:

Caoimhin O'Caoilin (why can't they use the names they were born with btw? it's like Malcolm X) would make a good Minister for Finance, all sorts of experience with raising funds...

again, we could do this all day. it's fun

Well he was a bank manager wasn't he? He's far and away one of the most competent members of the dail imo.

Ulster9

El Stuntman wrote:

Caoimhin O'Caoilin (why can't they use the names they were born with btw? it's like Malcolm X) would make a good Minister for Finance, all sorts of experience with raising funds...

again, we could do this all day. it's fun

How can you be so ignorant?Many people who are fluent Irish speakers use the Irish version of their name.
If this thread is now to be used to only to insult the name and integrity of Sinn Fein elected representatives i suggest it be shut down.

oscarBravo

Ulster9 wrote:

How can you be so ignorant?

I've warned you before. Banned for a week.

gandalf

stepbar, johnnyskeleton & El Stuntman last time I checked this was politics and not humour. Keep on topic and don't fire rubbish like your last few posts up again or you'll be interned for a week.

Again as has been stated on this thread if you see a post that you believe is going ott and in breach of the charter report it using the report bad post icon on the bottom left of the post. Please do not react to it yourself.

GabharBrean

oscarBravo wrote:

I've warned you before. Banned for a week.

Bravissimo, one reaction for Ulster and another for the sycophantic "humrous".

gandalf

GabharBrean wrote:

Bravissimo, one reaction for Ulster and another for the sycophantic "humrous".

Actually Ulster has already been banned and then had it revoked because he apologised and promised not to call names again. He didn't keep the promise hence he got banned.

The "humourous" have now been warned, they step out of line again and they will be dealt with too.

I also remember warnings to people on not doing the mods jobs for them, next time I see a comment like this in this thread or any others here I will have a mind to ban as well. If you have a problem with the modding here take it to the Feedback or Helpdesk forums.

FlutterinBantam

lets take the heat out of this arument shall we?

In my opinion if SF were elected it would be the worst possible thing for this country.

Investor confidence would plummet.

I feel it would be a "charter" for scumbaggery,where it is more profitable and easier to ride the system, than take the risk and and initiate a project.

I for one wouldn't want Martin Ferris or anyone of his ilk anywhere even remotely near the levers of power.
I feel a SF presence would bring this country back to bad days of the 80's where the hardworking 20% supported the indolent80% and where prudence and fiscal management would be thrown out the window to support the non productive elements of our society.

Personally i would leave the country within 6 months of any SF involvement in our Govt.

E92

FlutterinBantam wrote:

lets take the heat out of this arument shall we?

In my opinion if SF were elected it would be the worst possible thing for this country.

Investor confidence would plummet.

I feel it would be a "charter" for scumbaggery,where it is more profitable and easier to ride the system, than take the risk and and initiate a project.

I for one wouldn't want Martin Ferris or anyone of his ilk anywhere even remotely near the levers of power.
I feel a SF presence would bring this country back to bad days of the 80's where the hardworking 20% supported the indolent80% and where prudence and fiscal management would be thrown out the window to support the non productive elements of our society.

Personally i would leave the country within 6 months of any SF involvement in our Govt.

That pretty much sums up why I wouldnt vote for them(along with their past), and why they shouldn't be let withinin an inch of power. I think it woulds be the worst thing ever. We needn't worry, because if Fine Gael and Labour get in in the summer, you can bet your most valuable possession that Sinn Fein definately will not be involved in running the country, and Enda Kenny has already stated that he will not look for their support too, nor will he look for Michael Lowery's support.

GabharBrean

FlutterinBantam wrote:

lets take the heat out of this arument shall we?

Personally i would leave the country within 6 months of any SF involvement in our Govt.

Why wait so long?

johnnyskeleton

Sorry about the humour...Ulster9, when you come back I'd like to ask you the following(not to circumvent the mods but you can PM me if you like):

Ulster9 wrote:

Sinn Fein is in favour of increasing Capital Gains and PRSI.I see nothing wrong with this as i want increased taxation in order to improve public services and infrastructure.

While Capital Gains doesn't really affect me so I don't care, I really don't like PRSI. As someone who has a chequered past of jobs, studying and unemployment, I often claim PAYE back but can't claim PRSI back. In that regard, I do see it as a regressive tax.

On the other hand, I wonder would there be any benefit from introducing a third tax band e.g. 50% over €100,000. While this wouldn't affect that many people, and those it would affect probably wouldn't complain that much, it could provide a lot of extra income for the government.

My view on the public sector is that we need better managment rather than more money being thrown at it. As for health, changing private health so that private patients contribute more to public hospitals seems to me the better option than getting rid of the two tier system entirely. Regarding public transport, I have to say that the Luas is much better than Dublin Bus by a long shot, and while I would idealistically be left wing, I have to admit that public private partnerships in public transport do seem to work.

At the moment the government seems to be banking all its money on property market and this cant go on.

Will SF do anything about the property market, especially for FTBs/renters?

Whats the point in low personal taxes if everything else is going through the roof in prices and stealth taxes.

Do SF plan to increase personal income tax and remove all/most/some stealth taxes, do you know? Also, I'm not sure that any Irish government can control inflation much because of the ECB.

[/quote]It is correct that Sinn Fein policies are similar to Labours but I believe they are more in touch with their electorate.[/quote]

With respect, I think that all political parties are out of touch with their electorate to some degree, and I don't see SF being that different. The situation is that a party will say what it stands for and people can either accept it or reject it. SF don't strike me as having a dynamic relationship with their voters.

Sinn Fein also have a all-Ireland demension with a vision for a New Ireland which i find appealing.

What is this vision, is it a 32 county republic?

Also, where do SF stand re: EU exactly? Whenever there is a protest/criticism of the EU, SF are there, but I honestly don't think that being anti-EU is a tenable option. For example, the Greens are against a lot of the EU, but if they were in power, I don't see them acting any differently than the current administration did.

stepbar

gandalf wrote:

stepbar, johnnyskeleton & El Stuntman last time I checked this was politics and not humour. Keep on topic and don't fire rubbish like your last few posts up again or you'll be interned for a week.

Again as has been stated on this thread if you see a post that you believe is going ott and in breach of the charter report it using the report bad post icon on the bottom left of the post. Please do not react to it yourself.

Sorry gandalf the jokes were just a bit of light relief, but understand I can’t really take Sinn Fein seriously when their supporters continue to peddle in criminality. As well, I get the impression that SF would support any issue where the mainstream parties differ on opinion / or dont have one. All to get the few votes and the bit of power. And standing for no set of values at the end of it all. For those reasons I cant take SF seriously.

(To everyone else: Don’t ask for a link because you wont be getting one, however I do know of 3 ongoing investigations where supporters / members of Sinn Fein are being investigated by CAB for money laundering etc. For obvious reasons (i.e legal), this is not the forum for further discussion. So yes, there's a criminality issue to answer to).

Hagar

stepbar wrote:

I can’t really take Sinn Fein seriously when their supporters continue to peddle in criminality... So yes, there's a criminality issue to answer to

It is a well known fact that absolutely none of the supporters of the mainstream parties are in any way criminal at all.:rolleyes:

So exactly how many SF members were implicated in the various tribunals that the taxpayer has footed the bill for over the last few years?
Does anyone else associate the names Flood, Lawlor, Burke, Haughey with corruption?

GabharBrean

stepbar wrote:

Sorry gandalf the jokes were just a bit of light relief, but understand I can’t really take Sinn Fein seriously when their supporters continue to peddle in criminality. . . .

(To everyone else: Don’t ask for a link because you wont be getting one, however I do know of 3 ongoing investigations where supporters / members of Sinn Fein are being investigated by CAB for money laundering etc. For obvious reasons (i.e legal), this is not the forum for further discussion. So yes, there's a criminality issue to answer to).

SF supporters are inherently criminal. Can't comment now about ongoing investigations. If we can get a conviction, it will prove our proposition. Trust us. We will keep the barbarians from the gate. If your democratic rights are slowly being eroded, don't worry. As long you tow the line, you are safe.

Reminds me to the fellow (Corkman?) who they tried to prosecute for money laundering. Hadn't the goods on him, so they prosecuted him for a having a replica handgun. Said handgun being used as a cigarette lighter.

There's no smoke without fire. This cute hoor might have escaped us for now, but we will bring all the offices of law and order to bear upon these criminal elements. Anyway isn't that handgun sinister? Let this be a lesson for all of you.

Our job will be done when we stop calling Republicans criminals. Rather we'll be calling all criminals Republican supporters.

I suppose there are plenty of lawyer, FF and FG jokes. Lawyer's bank balances are sure no joke. It seems the modern progressive lawyer's highest goal is to increase his/her bank account. The law is merely a tool for profit.

As for FF & FG jokes

Judt

Tax 50% over 100,000? It's stuff like that that'll see entrepreneurs and businesses leave this country in droves... Kinda like the SF proposed policies. Just because you earn 1 million doesn't mean that you'd not take it as a kick in the balls to lose half of it.