Yellow boxes, tickets & the law

Mr. Flibble

Driving home today I stop in a yellow box junction when turning right onto a road similar to what the red car in the picture on the right below is doing.


A Garda pulls me over and tickets me for stopping in a yellow box. The law seems to state that I'm allowed to stop in the junction when turning right.

drivingschoolireland webpage wrote:

You must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction. However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that has the right of way.

ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 wrote:

29. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 020 [yellow box] is provided at a junction (whether controlled by traffic sign number RTS 00I, RTS 002 or RTS 004 [traffic lights], or otherwise], and notwithstanding any indication to the contrary that may be given by such traffic signs, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the crosshatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping.

(2) Sub-article (1) shall not apply where a driver of a vehicle intending to make a right-hand turn at a junction enters the crosshatched area for that purpose.

I stopped into a Garda station and asked them but they didn't have a clue. Said it was a grey area and the rule they go by is that you can't stop in a yellow box, full stop.
Not wanting to pay a fine and get penalty points if I'm in the right, what should I do?
-Wait till I receive a summons/ticket and reply with a letter stating what happened
-Try another Garda station and ask for advise
-Send a letter/email or call somewhere, if so where should I contact?

Turner

Draw a picture of what exactly you did and post it.

You can enter a yellow box if you are turning right.

If however while you are stopped in the yellow box and the lights change or whatever and you are stuck in the yellow box obstructing traffic that has the right of way, you are committing an offence.

jhegarty

Mr. Flibble wrote:

-Try another Garda station and ask for advise

How about asking for someone (sergeant) from the traiffc corp ?

Mr. Flibble

Here's a picture of what happened. I'm the green car with the red X. The funny looking black things are traffic lights.

Thats an idea jhegarty.

jhegarty

As long as you didn't block the green car with the big arrow you were correct

DublinDilbert

i know this used to be a trick question on the driving test...

when can you enter and stop on a yellow box junction?

From memory ( my test was 10 years ago ) you can enter and stop on a yellow box junction when (1) your exit is free and (2) the only thing stoping you complete your manouver is the oncoming traffic...

This would be the case for the blue car, in the picture of left, of the original post...

ImaBM-man

Ive asked all my family, every one of them as said "yeah id do that", so would I and as u said 1st off you are permitted to pull in to the box provided you do not block oncoming traffic.

Was the garda young? Where did this happen?

jayok

What you've done looks fine to me. If its not legal then why are yellow boxes painted on busy roads that have side roads off them with no traffic lights. You know the ones you see around housing estates, I think they are designed such that when traffic is queuing there will always be a space for merging traffic to enter the yellow box and get into the queue. This is the same idea of the yellow boxes on the M50 I think.

seamus

You may have been in the wrong Flibble.

If you look at the attached. It's exactly what you posted above. Look at the car with the brown X. If he is trying go straight ahead in the right-hand lane, and you were attempting to get into the left-hand lane, you were obstructing him.

In Dublin, there's one specific junction where this happens all the time - at the Con Colbert Road junction with South Circular. Inbound traffic attempting to turn right onto South Circular, basically has to do a U-turn onto the outbound, and then take a left onto South Circ. Often traffic doing the U-turn will turn onto the yellow box, exactly as pictured in the attached, and will block traffic attempting to go westbound on the Con Colbert Rd.

Where exactly did this occur?

dudara

Also, if I remember correctly, only one car at a time is allowed in a yellow box.

BrianD3

jayok wrote:

If its not legal then why are yellow boxes painted on busy roads that have side roads off them with no traffic lights. You know the ones you see around housing estates, I think they are designed such that when traffic is queuing there will always be a space for merging traffic to enter the yellow box and get into the queue.

I'm not sure, but I'd say it's more likely these yellow boxes are there to facilitate drivers turning right into the side road from the main road. If right turning drivers have to wait because the entrance to the side road is blocked then that could quickly cause a big traffic jam on the main road.

@Dublindilbert, your memory of the ROTR is mostly correct The bit you forgot is that you can also enter a yellow box when turning right if blocked only by other right turning traffic.

In the OPs case, he is not blocked by oncoming traffic or other right turning traffic as it would appear that the purple car is what's blocking him. Therefore he may have been in the wrong. There was a big debate about this in an old thread on this forum. IIRC the conclusion was that the pictures in the ROTR conflict with the text in the ROTR

ninty9er

I think there's a stipulation that you can enter a yellow box "provided that it is free"

Stark

You mean provided that the way ahead of you is free?

I mean you're hardly going to drive into the space occupied by another car one way or another.

You can enter a box junction while waiting to turn right only if doing so doesn't block traffic that has right of way.

Mr. Flibble

seamus wrote:

You may have been in the wrong Flibble.
If you look at the attached. It's exactly what you posted above. Look at the car with the brown X. If he is trying go straight ahead in the right-hand lane, and you were attempting to get into the left-hand lane, you were obstructing him.
In Dublin, there's one specific junction where this happens all the time - at the Con Colbert Road junction with South Circular. Inbound traffic attempting to turn right onto South Circular, basically has to do a U-turn onto the outbound, and then take a left onto South Circ. Often traffic doing the U-turn will turn onto the yellow box, exactly as pictured in the attached, and will block traffic attempting to go westbound on the Con Colbert Rd.
Where exactly did this occur?

Yes, it was at Con Colbert Road junction with South Circular.
I'm no more blocking the car with a brown X than I am the blue car beside it. Brown X has no where to go if I'm not there due to the red car.

Do you know where in the RTR act I should look to find the law I allegedly broke? It isn't covered in the Box Junction section at least.

dudara wrote:

Also, if I remember correctly, only one car at a time is allowed in a yellow box.

Oh:(
Is there anywhere else other than the ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 act that has rules/laws about this. I searched and it only says what I quoted above and also not to park in them.

seamus

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I'm no more blocking the car with a brown X than I am the blue car beside it. Brown X has no where to go if I'm not there due to the red car.

Purely from my own experience, the first car in the box usually doesn't block the westbound traffic (there's enough room to manouver around normally), the second and subsequent cars piling in usually do block it. Of course, I wasn't there.
If it was the case as in the picture, then the Garda should have fined both of you for the same offence.

Do you know where in the RTR act I should look to find the law I allegedly broke? It isn't covered in the Box Junction section at least.

This bit (page 104):
"However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that
has the right of way."

littlejukka

you were in the wrong. an appeal wouldn't be a good idea as you have no evidence to suggest a grounds for dismissal and you will double the penalty.

take it on the chin and try not to do it again in front of a garda.

Wishbone Ash

DublinDilbert wrote:

you can enter and stop on a yellow box junction when (1) your exit is free and (2) the only thing stoping you complete your manouver is the oncoming traffic...

This would be the case for the blue car, in the picture of left, of the original post...

That would be my interpretation also DublinDilbert.

Mr Flibble - your exit was not clear and you did not have to yield to "oncoming" traffic, therefore you should not have entered the box.

It's a bit ambiguous but AFAIK, the law regarding turning right is intended to refer to turning right into a side road (although this does not appear to be specified).

Mr. Flibble

Alrighty. It seems that I was wrong although I cannot track down the exact law I broke in the Act. I take it that the road traffic act supersedes the rules of the road book?

Sure I'll see what the ticket/summons says and go from there. Cheers for the feedback all.

Our man in Havana

Yes the ROTR book is not the law and of course the Road Traffic act 1961 as ammended is the law and it takes precedence.

Esel

Chief--- wrote:

If however while you are stopped in the yellow box and the lights change or whatever and you are stuck in the yellow box obstructing traffic that has the right of way, you are committing an offence.

Are you certain about this?

Surely if you are in the junction when the lights change, you have control of the junction and can proceed to complete the turn? The oncoming traffic should only proceed if it is safe to do so.

Wishbone Ash

esel wrote:

Surely if you are in the junction when the lights change, you have control of the junction and can proceed to complete the turn? The oncoming traffic should only proceed if it is safe to do so.

Not so simple when stuck in the box while driving an artic.

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I take it that the road traffic act supersedes the rules of the road book?

Yes. The ROTR specifically states that "This booklet is not an interpretation of the law".

mada999

this may clear it up for you...it's a video

http://www.driving-test-success.com/box_junc/box_junc.html

It's an english site but I'm sure it's the same here....

jayok

BrianD3 wrote:

I'm not sure, but I'd say it's more likely these yellow boxes are there to facilitate drivers turning right into the side road from the main road. If right turning drivers have to wait because the entrance to the side road is blocked then that could quickly cause a big traffic jam on the main road.

Yeah I know those yellow boxes, but there is also the ones that are painted one the side of the road opposite the junction. That is the lane directly next to the junction has no yellow box, but the one opposite the junction has. The only place I can think of one now is in Auburn avenue in Castleknock. Very strange.

seamus

esel wrote:

Surely if you are in the junction when the lights change, you have control of the junction and can proceed to complete the turn? The oncoming traffic should only proceed if it is safe to do so.

Yes and no. There is another item in statute (that I located last night, don't have it right now), that says that a person should not operate their vehicle in a public place in such a way as would obstruct the path of other traffic.

If you also think about this logically, the law states that you must only enter a yellow box if you can proceed to clear the box at the other side. It also provides a case where you may enter and wait for oncoming traffic to clear. However, this doesn't necessarily override the need to clear the box on the far side - that is, if you cannot clear the yellow box on completion of your right-hand turn, then you shouldn't enter it in the first place. It's not all that obvious, but that's easily a valid interpretation of the statute.

BrianD3

Here's another scenario for you guys. Lets say you enter a yellow box while waiting to turn right into a side road. The road you wish to turn into is clear and only oncoming traffic is preventing you from making the turn. As you wait for a gap in oncoming traffic, 10 of the oncoming cars decide to turn left into the same side road that you want to turn into. The side road is now gridlocked and your exit is blocked. If a Garda comes along at this point, it looks like you entered the yellow box without having a clear exit when in fact you didn't.

Any thoughts?

seamus

Bad luck I guess Brian.

It's a theoretical one (though not unlikely in this country), much like the discussion we had about four vehicles simultaneously entering a equal-rights crossroad.

You'd just hope that a Garda would have been present long enough to have seen what happened.

Turner

Wonder if there is case law on this ??

craichoe

Ok,

If turning right, you should position yourself in the Yellow Box so you can turn right, then proceed when it is safe to do so, if the light is red then you should still turn otherwise you are obstructing traffic. In practise this should work because the lights should be red for oncoming traffic, unless they break the lights (going on a late red which would give the cars to your right and left a green light before you get moving) in which case the person who broke the lights is obstructing traffic i.e. you as you have right of way when in the junction and oncoming traffic has been instructed to stop as signaled.

If you do not position yourself in the junction, you will be obstructing the traffic behind you going straight.

Many many drawings by an instructor explained this ... oh the pain ! ... It's also on the Cork driving test route, out by Togher.

DMC2005

I can't really understand the confusion here. You are not allowed stop your vehicle in the yellow box except if you are trying to turn right AND are prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic. The idea of the exception is to allow people find "a gap" in the oncoming traffic more easily.

The OP's passage thru the junction was not blocked by oncoming traffic, it was blocked by traffic moving in the same direction as him.

BrianD3

DMC2005 wrote:

I can't really understand the confusion here. You are not allowed stop your vehicle in the yellow box except if you are trying to turn right AND are prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic.

Or by other right turning vehicles.

It states this in the ROTR, but the illustrations in the ROTR conflict with the text. Look at the very first post in this thread with the red car waiting in the yellow box. He's not blocked only by oncoming traffic or only by other right turning vehicles yet he's sitting there in the box. So it's no wonder there is confusion

This apparent discrepancy was debated at length before in this thread from about post 21 onwards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=256144

DMC2005

BrianD3 wrote:

Or by other right turning vehicles.

It states this in the ROTR, but the illustrations in the ROTR conflict with the text.

The 2007 rules of the road has clarified the matter and states :

"An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the
yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite
direction."

It also states that you may not enter the box to turn right, if it would obstruct other vehicles.

jimmycrackcorm

DMC2005 wrote:

The 2007 rules of the road has clarified the matter and states :

"An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the
yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite
direction."

It also states that you may not enter the box to turn right, if it would obstruct other vehicles.

That would indicate that Flibble is correct in that he did not obstruct other traffic. The blue car in his case is obstructed from moving forward by the traffic on the far side of the box and stopped short of the box as he legally could not enter it.

Any decent solicitor can get out of this one as there is no point in having this box junction (side road) other than to facilitate side road traffic.

littlejukka

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

That would indicate that Flibble is correct in that he did not obstruct other traffic. The blue car in his case is obstructed from moving forward by the traffic on the far side of the box and stopped short of the box as he legally could not enter it.

he's still wrong. any good solicitor would know that actually blocking traffic and setting yourself up to potentially block traffic are equally punishable. if the lane on the left was held up while the right hand lane was released (by traffic lights farther ahead for example) the OP would have been holding up the right hand lane. allowing yourself get into this position is enough, whether or not you actually block traffic.

smemon

BrianD3 wrote:

Lets say you enter a yellow box while waiting to turn right into a side road. The road you wish to turn into is clear and only oncoming traffic is preventing you from making the turn. As you wait for a gap in oncoming traffic, 10 of the oncoming cars decide to turn left into the same side road that you want to turn into. The side road is now gridlocked and your exit is blocked. If a Garda comes along at this point, it looks like you entered the yellow box without having a clear exit when in fact you didn't.

Any thoughts?

which is exactly why i don't enter a box until i see a gap in traffic and a clear exit

it's happened me a few times in the past.. end up looking like an eejit and blocking other traffic from moving.

seamus

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

That would indicate that Flibble is correct in that he did not obstruct other traffic. The blue car in his case is obstructed from moving forward by the traffic on the far side of the box and stopped short of the box as he legally could not enter it.

As pointed out, he did obstruct traffic though - the right-hand lane of vehicles. I know this junction very well, if I get a chance I'll do a mock up drawing - there's a little more context to it than the picture above can show.

OldmanMondeo

My understanding of the box junction is that it is for traffic turning right off the road on which the traffic is already on. Traffic needed to turn onto the road, i.e for junction right or left, can only stop in the box if there is no other car in there. (gets ready to be shot down)

cormie

Don't fancy reading all the posts, has a conclusion been drawn on this situation yet?

And is it true that only one car is allowed in a yellow box at a time? Meaning the green car is breaking the law regardless, I never knew that was the case.

OldmanMondeo

cormie wrote:

And is it true that only one car is allowed in a yellow box at a time? Meaning the green car is breaking the law regardless, I never knew that was the case.

Could be just a rule of thumb that I was told a long time ago, but from the ticket the OP got, it could well be.

DMC2005

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

That would indicate that Flibble is correct in that he did not obstruct other traffic. The blue car in his case is obstructed from moving forward by the traffic on the far side of the box and stopped short of the box as he legally could not enter it.

Any decent solicitor can get out of this one as there is no point in having this box junction (side road) other than to facilitate side road traffic.

No it wouldnt .... Have you read my post ?

The rule is very clear : Never stop on a yellow box unless you are waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction so you can turn right, and you are not going to obstruct other traffic while on the box. He was not waiting for a gap in traffic coming in the opposite direction, therefore he should not have been in the box.

The rule is not : you can stop on the yellow box so long as you don't obstruct someone.