How would you react if one of your children was gay?

HelterSkelter

I was talking to a Muslim recently about how she would react if one of her Children turned out to be gay. She said she would be very hurt and disappointed. She would have minimal contact with them from then on. I think this is very harsh. I would prefer if my kids were hetrosexual, but if one of them turned out gay I would still love them the same.

What are your opinions on this?

wes

Well I would need to have some kids first . Oh and a wife, would be very difficult to have children without the involvement of a female.

Anyway joking aside, I would be concerned for my child, as society isn't exactly accepting of Homosexuality, well its a lot better than it use to be, but still a ways to go. I would of course show the same love and support for the child as they can't help how they were born.

the_new_mr

wes wrote:

...they can't help how they were born.

That's assuming you can be born gay. We've already talked about this on this forum I think so no point going back into it. Also, this forum isn't really the place for the nurture vs nature debate.

I think I would probably be disappointed and try and see what can be done to have my child convinced otherwise. Perhaps through reasoning or something. I've no idea how to handle a situation like that really. I pray that it won't happen.

I don't think I would love them any less. I would view it as any other sin really. Like I'd be unhappy if my child drank or had pre-marital sex but wouldn't love them less or exile them or anything. I think that the woman that says that she'd have minimal contact was being quite harsh. Maybe she wouldn't really be like that if the situation actually arose.

Osman

I would probably be disappointed, but I tend to take the optimistic view that it is what has been written for them. If they have these feelings, then I would view it as a test from Allah and Allah says (paraphrasing here) that he does not place a burden on somebody greater than they can bear.

It is important though to remember that the feelings themselves are not condemned, but only when it becomes action is it condemned.

Regards

InFront

It's hypothetical so we never really know what we would do in the situation. Like the others, if I ever have children inshAllah, (if God is willing) and they felt that way I would be disappointed.

Being honest it would probably make me question my success as his father. On the other hand, I would hope that kicking him out of the house or turning him away would be absolutely out of the question.
To push them away, you would have to wonder what you'd be pushing them away into. At a time like that, a teenager would need their siblings and parents as much as ever.

However, I would also be relieved if he trusted his father enough to confide in him about something of that nature, instead of someone outside the home or a person who could have a negative influence.

I don't know how possible it is to just deliberately stop loving your child, it seems very unnatural.

Osman

InFront wrote:

I don't know how possible it is to just deliberately stop loving your child, it seems very unnatural.

Believe me, I've heard some pretty wild stuff out there from some Muslims. I've heard one say that they would actually hate their child because they in doing so they would be practising Al Wala' wa'l Bara' (loving and hating for the sake of Allah).

Pretty sad world we live in, huh?

Regards

UU

That's a very interesting question OP! Thanks!

Well I'm gay myself but I'm not Muslim. Although I knew a guy once who was gay and Muslim from Indonesia I think. Very nice chap. Well, he couldn't tell his parents because he's be afraid they'd disown him. But not loving and hurting your child because of his/her sexuality wouldn't be very nice and would be sinning also which in fact, you wouldn't be any better. From what I've heard though, the Qur'an doesn't so much say that homosexuality (that is, being gay) is a sin wbut the acts themselves are. So if two men loved each other but refrained from sex then they wouldn't be sinning. Also homosexuality in Islam doesn't extend to lesbians. I may need some clarification on that though.

Anyway, a good website from LGBT Muslims is called Al Fatiha so it's good for support and stuff.

InFront

UU wrote:

So if two men loved each other but refrained from sex then they wouldn't be sinning.

Hi uu. It depends on what you mean by love. There is friendly love and there is romantic love.
In Islam, we must avoid not only what is not permissible and sinful, but also, what creates an environment that allows sin to happen.

We see such situations all the time in Islam, a male and a female friend not being alone together, not going out together, or avoiding eye contact. These situations might lead on to further things, (or simply observing them can serve to act as a regular reminder, of the dangers of certain behaviours).
It's a bit like wearing a seatbelt. It is important to do everything reasonable to secure your fate. Prevention comes before damage limitation.

lso homosexuality in Islam doesn't extend to lesbians. I may need some clarification on that though.

I think the issue is that there is no pre-determined punishment for lesbians, it would certainly be regarded as sinful though. Allah knows best.

the_new_mr

InFront wrote:

or avoiding eye contact.

In fairness, this isn't a very widely held opinion as far as I know. I think correct and proper eye contact is fine but, ahem, lustful eye contact is not.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Reckon I'd be disappointed. Maybe I should be ashamed of this but I just imagine it's how I'd feel & I'm not going to lie. I think everyone would tbh. If a gay guy had kids (straight crisis or something) he'd probably be disappointed too.

There's probably genetic reasons for it. I mean if my son knew I'd be disappointed in him being gay there's a higher probablity of him covering it up & might even end up having kids. Therefore the gene that causes this disappointment gets passed on.

If he thought I'd be just as happy he'd be comtorbale in havng a male partner & that's the end of those genes.

I'd do my best to pretend I was happy for him all the same.

Truther

If one of my children turned out to be gay, I wouldn't cut off contact with them or force them out of the house, or love them any less. It would still be my duty to take care of that child.
It's not a sin to be homosexual but it is to practise it. But at the end of the day Allah knows best. Don't forget that Allah says it so many times in the noble Qur'an that He is the most forgiving and merciful.

the_new_mr

Salam Truther. Welcome to the Islam forum.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

There's probably genetic reasons for it. I mean if my son knew I'd be disappointed in him being gay there's a higher probablity of him covering it up & might even end up having kids. Therefore the gene that causes this disappointment gets passed on.

If he thought I'd be just as happy he'd be comtorbale in havng a male partner & that's the end of those genes.

I see your point but surely you don't mean genes. You probably mean psychological hang up or something, right?

Osman

Truther wrote:

If one of my children turned out to be gay, I wouldn't cut off contact with them or force them out of the house, or love them any less.

Thanks for this post.

It brings something to my mind:

In the lengthy hadith of `Amr ibn `Anbasah (RAA), which includes many of the basic teachings of Islam, he said:

"I entered upon the Prophet (PBUH) in Makkah (meaning at the beginning of his Prophethood), and asked him, `What are you?' He said, `A Prophet.' I asked, `What is a Prophet?' He said, `Allah (SWT) has sent me.' I asked, `With what has He sent you?' He said, `He has sent me to uphold the ties of kinship, to break the idols and to teach that Allah (SWT) is One and has no partner whatsoever . . ."3

Peace

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote:

I see your point but surely you don't mean genes. You probably mean psychological hang up or something, right?

I did actually mean genes, like one that could cause one to be more predisposed toward having this psychological hang up.

the_new_mr

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I did actually mean genes, like one that could cause one to be more predisposed toward having this psychological hang up.

I know this isn't the forum for it but...

I guess it's possible that a gene could be responsible for having a psychological hangup about something but I'm not sure if someone getting over it themselves would be "the end of the gene". I think that at the most it might be the end of a behaviour which is passed down on the psychological level (possibly sub-consciously) rather than the genetic level.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I meant that the end of the gene would arise from two guys together being unable to have kids!

the_new_mr

Riiiiiiiiight. Makes sense now

Boston

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Reckon I'd be disappointed. Maybe I should be ashamed of this but I just imagine it's how I'd feel & I'm not going to lie. I think everyone would tbh. If a gay guy had kids (straight crisis or something) he'd probably be disappointed too.

There's probably genetic reasons for it. I mean if my son knew I'd be disappointed in him being gay there's a higher probablity of him covering it up & might even end up having kids. Therefore the gene that causes this disappointment gets passed on.

If he thought I'd be just as happy he'd be comtorbale in havng a male partner & that's the end of those genes.

I'd do my best to pretend I was happy for him all the same.

Interesting that you highlight Gay son rather then daughter and gay genes. It suggests you would view a gay son as a reflection of yourself, something you passed onto your son. That's probably why you'd be disappointed.

Anyway, to change the question slightly, would you feel a non-heterosexual child meant you had failed in your duties to raise you child as a Muslim ?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Boston wrote:

Interesting that you highlight Gay son rather then daughter and gay genes. It suggests you would view a gay son as a reflection of yourself, something you passed onto your son. That's probably why you'd be disappointed.

Anyway, to change the question slightly, would you feel a non-heterosexual child meant you had failed in your duties to raise you child as a Muslim ?

You might be on to something, though it's more likely I'm a bit of a sexist & thought of male first:D
Anyway you could change it to daughter or child & it would still be the same post. I should have said child.

I'm not a Muslim so I can't answer your question. If I was a Muslim I don't think I would as I personally believe homosexuality is due to nature rather than nurture. Mainly due to there being so much homosexuality with other animals.

the_new_mr

Tough question. I'd say I would feel that I've failed slightly for sure. But maybe not failed completely since a person is more than just their sexuality.

And (without wanting a return of the nature vs nurture debate... that's not for this forum), the argument that it's in animals isn't a very strong one in my opinion. I mean, male lions go about killing the cubs of males in different prides to prevent the spread of the other lion's genes and a young male lion will try and kill or scare off (but usually kill) the alpha male of a pride to take over it and spread his genes. You can't find justification for humans doing anything like that just because animals do it.

meglome

the_new_mr wrote:

I see your point but surely you don't mean genes. You probably mean psychological hang up or something, right?

Emm don't want to start anything here (especially since it's the first time I've posted in here) but I have several gay friends whom I have known for a long time. I can tell you they are just not attracted to the opposite sex, I don't see how that's a switch that can be turned on and off. They tell me they knew they were different to the other kids in childhood, just at the time didn't understand why. I appreciate some peoples sexuality is ambiguous (try-sexual you might say) but I think for none of the 'normal' sexual chemistry to work it has to be genetic not just a preference.

As for the original question... I wouldn't choose for my children to be different in any way that would single them out for a hard time. But i'd love them all the same no matter what their sexuality turned out to be.

wes

To be fair while I personally think that Homosexuality is more a product of nature than anything else. There is no proof of there being a gay gene per se. The best evidence is its appearance in other animals rather than genetics.

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote:

Tough question. I'd say I would feel that I've failed slightly for sure. But maybe not failed completely since a person is more than just their sexuality.

And (without wanting a return of the nature vs nurture debate... that's not for this forum), the argument that it's in animals isn't a very strong one in my opinion. I mean, male lions go about killing the cubs of males in different prides to prevent the spread of the other lion's genes and a young male lion will try and kill or scare off (but usually kill) the alpha male of a pride to take over it and spread his genes. You can't find justification for humans doing anything like that just because animals do it.

You can't justify it but it still happens, look at all the gangland murders over drug territories.

Also the chances of an infant being killed by a step parent is higher than with a genetic parent. cinderella effect

Anyway while I do believe it comes from nature I also find it difficult to believe anyone would be 100% homosexual. So as someone suggested it could be viewed as a test from Allah.

wes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Anyway while I do believe it comes from nature I also find it difficult to believe anyone would be 100% homosexual.

There is actually a theory that says that not everyone is a 100% gay or straight. That we all have tendencies to a degree (some are of course more homosexual and straight than others) and that one side tends to win out for the majority. I can't remember the theories name. I am sure someone will enlighten us to the name.

the_new_mr

Welcome the Islam forum meglome. Hope you have read the forum charter.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You can't justify it but it still happens, look at all the gangland murders over drug territories.

Also the chances of an infant being killed by a step parent is higher than with a genetic parent.

I think you might have misunderstood me. What I meant was that just because it's in animals doesn't mean we have to do it. So, gangland murders and the cinderella effect are things which are simply wrong. We may all sometimes get the urge to hit someone but that doesn't mean we should.

As has already been said and you repeated, it may well be a test from God. God knows best.

Bottle_of_Smoke

the_new_mr wrote:

I think you might have misunderstood me. What I meant was that just because it's in animals doesn't mean we have to do it. So, gangland murders and the cinderella effect are things which are simply wrong. We may all sometimes get the urge to hit someone but that doesn't mean we should.

Oh yeah, completely agree with that. All I said was I believed it came from nature. As does the cinderella effect & drug dealers wiping out competition. Whether it's right or wrong is a different issue.

Medin

I'd gently remind him about what happened to the nation of Allah's Messenger Lot (Lut a.s.) and afterwards I wouldn't pay much attention to him, unless he re-thinks and comes back to normal.

Shabadu

Medin wrote:

I'd gently remind him about what happened to the nation of Allah's Messenger Lot (Lut a.s.) and afterwards I wouldn't pay much attention to him, unless he re-thinks and comes back to normal.

Do Muslims believe Allah made and loves every human the way they are?

If it is scientifically proven that Homosexuality is an inevitable choice due to genetics/hormone exposure in the womb would you accept that Allah had created homosexuality?

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Do Muslims believe Allah made and loves every human the way they are?

IMO.Eh, no. Of course not. If every human was fine as they are then there would be no need for the Quran or for prophets to help mankind. Must like any other faith, the people are asked to make themselves better for their god to be pleased.

Shabadu wrote:

If it is scientifically proven that Homosexuality is an inevitable choice due to genetics/hormone exposure in the womb would you accept that Allah had created homosexuality?

You have just said if science disproves what the religion says, and hence what god says, would that make people turn away from their faith. Has it worked with christians and the bible ? no. So I dont think it would work here.

And just out of interest, what difference would it make. Say tomorrow people accepted that Homosexuality is an inevitable choice due to genetics/hormone exposure in the womb. What would change ? Do you think that Islam would embrace Homosexuality as a good way of life ?

Does your faith accept Homosexuality ? If so is that based on science or a gut feeling ?

Medin

Shabadu wrote:

Do Muslims believe Allah made and loves every human the way they are?

If it is scientifically proven that Homosexuality is an inevitable choice due to genetics/hormone exposure in the womb would you accept that Allah had created homosexuality?

Allah (swt) does not love infidels. Homosexuality is a devil installed thing in one's head and nothing more than that. Whoever is looking to find an excuse in genetics - it will not be accepted from him.

Boston

Medin wrote:

Allah (swt) does not love infidels. Homosexuality is a devil installed thing in one's head and nothing more than that. Whoever is looking to find an excuse in genetics - it will not be accepted from him.

Medin : Reinforcing streotypes accross boards.ie.

Basically Allah hates infidels, allah is a hateful god and so are his followers. His followers also have conditional love for their children. People like you, who shout the loudest from the fringes are why Muslims the world over have so many problems and why so many liberal people view Islam as incompatible with a secular and accepting society.

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

You have just said if science disproves what the religion says, and hence what god says, would that make people turn away from their faith. Has it worked with christians and the bible ? no. So I dont think it would work here.

Not all Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. I sincerley doubt if Jesus was the son of God that he did either.

Besides, not everyone believes that the Bible is written by God. If it was divinely inspired, it was also filtered through the tiny, prejudiced minds of man.

And just out of interest, what difference would it make. Say tomorrow people accepted that Homosexuality is an inevitable choice due to genetics/hormone exposure in the womb. What would change ?

Well, fingers crossed some fundamentalist christians would quit banging on about it being a 'choice'. I assume the same would happen for some Muslims.

Do you think that Islam would embrace Homosexuality as a good way of life ?

I'm fairly sure a lot of Muslims already do.

Does your faith accept Homosexuality ?

My personal not-so-much affiliated with any major religion faith? Absofeckin'lutely. I wouldn't have ANY sort of spiritual belief if I didn't completely believe that if there is a higher power, it is clever enough to realise that homsexuality is not a sin.

If so is that based on science or a gut feeling ?

It's based on the fact that homosexuality is not ever a sin, regardless of whether it's nature or nurture induced.

DinoBot

Boston wrote:

Medin : Reinforcing streotypes accross boards.ie.

Basically Allah hates infidels, allah is a hateful god and so are his followers. His followers also have conditional love for their children. People like you, who shout the loudest from the fringes are why Muslims the world over have so many problems and why so many liberal people view Islam as incompatible with a secular and accepting society.

Hi Boston,

Im Irish and I have not yet met a practicing roman catholic who thinks god allows homosexuality as a good way of life. So by your logic, roman catholics are also incompatible with a secular and accepting society. Irish catholic's also discriminate against children who do not beleive in jesus, in relation to schools. How does that fit in with your ideal of a "secular and accepting society" ??

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

Hi Boston,

Im Irish and I have not yet met a practicing roman catholic who thinks god allows homosexuality as a good way of life. So by your logic, roman catholics are also incompatible with a secular and accepting society. Irish catholic's also discriminate against children who do not beleive in jesus, in relation to schools. How does that fit in with your ideal of a "secular and accepting society" ??

Really? Both my Grandmothers were devout Catholics and absolutely fine with the lifestyles of their homosexual children.

Boston

DinoBot wrote:

Hi Boston,

Im Irish and I have not yet met a practicing roman catholic who thinks god allows homosexuality as a good way of life. So by your logic, roman catholics are also incompatible with a secular and accepting society. Irish catholic's also discriminate against children who do not beleive in jesus, in relation to schools. How does that fit in with your ideal of a "secular and accepting society" ??

You rolled the Dice and came up snake eyes there pal. For starters I was playing devils advocate, I do not believe that medins fundementalist views are widely share nor his attitude towards how to deal with these issues, hence the fringe comment. That said, what if medin was the only Muslim I'd ever talked to? Most people take first impressions and thats it, they never look at something twice.

As for the Catholic thing, I'm open and accepting of most religion, the catholic religion however is something I have a huge problem with, and I don't see it as in any way fitting into a secular and accepting society.

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

It's based on the fact that homosexuality is not ever a sin, regardless of whether it's nature or nurture induced.

Just for the record, I dont have a problem with homosexuality.

My point was: you are of the thinking that if people turned to science the problem of religion would be fixed. But your view that "homosexuality is not ever a sin" is not based on science either. So you also came to a conclusion about it without looking for proof, same as muslims.

The problem is complex IMO. Its not as simple as you implyed.

Shabadu wrote:

Not all Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. I sincerley doubt if Jesus was the son of God that he did either.

But your not speaking as a believer, so Id say your option is very biased.

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Really? Both my Grandmothers were devout Catholics and absolutely fine with the lifestyles of their homosexual children.

Thats human nature, and its a good thing people use their common sence when it comes to matters like that, Im glad to hear it. But their "faith" as Catholics does not allow it. Now if they choose to ignore that part, all well and good.
But I doubt if they had asked the pope if he agreed that he would.

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

But your not speaking as a believer, so Id say your option is very biased.

Actually, I *do* believe that Jesus was the son of God. That's not something I admit to much as when I'm with my peers it seems like if you're not an athiest nowadays you must have some sort of mental deficiency.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with any of the Christian religions, but I believe in Christ.

DinoBot

Boston wrote:

You rolled the Dice and came up snake eyes there pal. For starters I was playing devils advocate, I do not believe that medins fundementalist views are widely share nor his attitude towards how to deal with these issues, hence the fringe comment. That said, what if medin was the only Muslim I'd ever talked to? Most people take first impressions and thats it, they never look at something twice..

I dont think his views are "fundementalist". I think alot of muslims would agree with his statements about homosexuality (as would alot of christians)

Boston wrote:

You rolled the Dice and came up snake eyes there pal.

Dont get the reference, is that a good thing or bad

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

Thats human nature, and its a good thing people use their common sence when it comes to matters like that, Im glad to hear it. But their "faith" as Catholics does not allow it. Now if they choose to ignore that part, all well and good.
But I doubt if they had asked the pope if he agreed that he would.

Have to say I don't agree there. You're not excommunicated for being gay.

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Actually, I *do* believe that Jesus was the son of God. That's not something I admit to much as when I'm with my peers it seems like if you're not an athiest nowadays you must have some sort of mental deficiency.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with any of the Christian religions, but I believe in Christ.

So you have your own "version" of what Jesus said and thought. Well super, hope that works for you. I would however recommend further study of the actual teachings of Jesus and the message he brought. I dont think its good enough to only attribute good things to him and leave out the bits you dont like and still claim it to be from him.
Do you know of any christian faith that allows homosexuality as part of their faith and claim it as part of jesus teaching ?

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Have to say I don't agree there. You're not excommunicated for being gay.

The catloics also dont excommunicate their members for other stuff either as history has shown in recent years.

Boston

So you agree that Allah is a hateful god? You believe it is right to shun your child because he doesn't follow exactly the path you beleive was outlined by Allah. You believe that Homosexulaity is the work of the devil crawling into the heads of people?

These are views not widely shared, even in islam.

1) People have talked about God/Allah loving all, even non-muslims. Allah loves infidels.

2) People are not to be so quick to turn on their loved ones, regardless of relgious differences.

3) When Christians, and for that matter most Muslims talk about homosexuality, its as a sin of a normal mortal person. Just like all the other sins. To suggest that the devil has pocessed the person is deranged to say the least, and not something which would have much support.

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

So you have your own "version" of what Jesus said and thought. Well super, hope that works for you. I would however recommend further study of the actual teachings of Jesus and the message he brought. I dont think its good enough to only attribute good things to him and leave out the bits you dont like and still claim it to be from him.
Do you know of any christian faith that allows homosexuality as part of their faith and claim it as part of jesus teaching ?

Sorry, is Leviticus one of the Gospels now or sth.? Where did Jesus EVER say homosexuality was a sin? Maybe you should 'further study of the actual teachings of Jesus and the message he brought.'

DinoBot wrote:

The catloics also dont excommunicate their members for other stuff either as history has shown in recent years.

Wait- you're not seriously equating the church's stance on homosexuality with it's stance on pedophilia, are you?

LOL

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Sorry, is Leviticus one of the Gospels now or sth.? Where did Jesus EVER say homosexuality was a sin? Maybe you should 'further study of the actual teachings of Jesus and the message he brought.'

Well, I must admit Im no expert when it comes to the christian faith. My impression was always that christians are against it because its on the bible. There is an active thread on the christianity forum which is on the same lines.
Maybe I should look into this jesus felle a bit more

DinoBot

Wait- you're not seriously equating the church's stance on homosexuality with it's stance on pedophilia, are you?

No,
what I am saying is that just because the church does not excommunicate their members for commiting certin sins does not mean that the sin is then accepted!

You had said "You're not excommunicated for being gay" This does not equate to the church excepting people living a gay life does it ?

Shabadu wrote:

You believe it is right to shun your child because he doesn't follow exactly the path you beleive was outlined by Allah. You believe that Homosexulaity is the work of the devil crawling into the heads of people?

They are not my belief! but I do see this as quite common among muslims. I have been to classes where is would be recommended to shun your child

Shabadu

DinoBot wrote:

No,
what I am saying is that just because the church does not excommunicate their members for commiting certin sins does not mean that the sin is then accepted!

You had said "You're not excommunicated for being gay" This does not equate to the church excepting people living a gay life does it ?



They are not my belief! but I do see this as quite common among muslims. I have been to classes where is would be recommended to shun your child

True, but it's not as if they deny homosexuals the sacraments anymore. (apart from marriage ) Don't get me wrong, they don't have any sort of good track record with homosexual rights, but it's improving slowly and steadily. Eh, we're also totally off topic waffling about the Catholic Church here and should stop.

DinoBot

Shabadu wrote:

Eh, we're also totally off topic waffling about the Catholic Church here and should stop.

Agree, nice chatting

the_new_mr

Yeah, as interesting as it is, this is not the place for that discussion. As mentioned, there's already a thread on it in the Christianity forum.

As for the homosexuality in Islam thing, I think it's already been covered.

I believe that there is no question about it being a sin and a major sin at that. Definitely no question about that in my mind. But how do you treat your child in such a situation? As I've already said, I wouldn't know until I'm actually in the situation (and I pray to God that I never am) but I think I would try my best to guide them away from the sin just as if they were drinking or having pre-maritial sex etc. Definitely would feel very uncomfortable about it though.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

HelterSkelter wrote:

She said she would be very hurt and disappointed. She would have minimal contact with them from then on.

like most of my Gay friends parents act...and they are christian and Irish...