Luas for Waterfors

teckno

Heard on local news today that Government launching feasibility studies into Luas lines for Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick. It would be fantastic to have a luas Line in Waterford, but probably pre election spin.

What would the route be however??
Start off in ferrybank, and cross a brand new Luas only bridge over the Suir, final destination WIT Heaven for me!! No more driving cars i traffic

patrickc

no route cos imo it'll never happen

fricatus

Has anyone a source for this?

I read an article this morning in the Irish Times that mentions only Cork, Limerick and Galway, not Waterford.

Lads, I think we should get this one clarified pronto and then fire off a missive to Geraldine Kennedy for once again leaving our fair city off the list!

Sully

I dont think Waterford needs a Luas line anyway

merlante

Sully wrote:

I dont think Waterford needs a Luas line anyway

It needs a Luas no more or no less than Galway. Why should Galway be considered and not Waterford? Waterford would actually be more suitable because it is more compact than Galway and doesn't have the same problems with urban sprawl.

Trams are not considered for cities of less than 100,000 people in Germany, and even then only in what was previously east Germany, where trams are utilised far more than in the west. A bus service would be perfectly suitable for Waterford, Galway and Limerick, but the point is, if this country has become so awash with cash that places like Galway and Limerick are being considered then naturally Waterford should be considered too. We don't need there to be any sort of apartheid between Waterford and its peer cities of Limerick and Galway, be it in terms of education, transport infrastructure, jobs or whatever. Our competitive position must be maintained.

So basically, "I dont think Waterford needs a Luas line anyway" is neither here nor there, and will not cut it as an attitude for Waterford people to hold any longer. We are the only city that is happy to go without while other cities fight for their fair share, and more. Waterford needs to re-establish itself amongst its peer cities, and reports that refer to Luas's or anything else going to the 'regional cities' where the regional cities is all of the cities except Waterford is alarming, and is unacceptable.

I would be very interested indeed to hear an argument that justified Galway's case for a Luas but denied the same case for Waterford. I suspect there is no such argument. Whatever analysis is carried out for Luas's in regional cities should include Waterford for consideration.

fricatus

Well said Merlante.

mike65

Any such undertaking should be done on a technical/fiscal level not on a parish pump one. Taking an entirely practical view, its hard to see how the investment required could justify such an undertaking as only one route offers itself - from the bus depot out the Cork road to the collage and Browns Road/N25 junction for the industrial estate. The city to too hilly for much else.

Sully

Read the article in the Indo, and Waterford is being considered.

merlante; I just didnt think Waterford really needed one. I dont see where it could go, as there is little room to build one for a start. Also, there seems to be a fairly good bus service which brings people from A to B.

I dunno, maybe im not looking at the bigger picture but I cant see why it needs one. Just my opinion

superdudeman007

Sully wrote:

I dont think Waterford needs a Luas line anyway

And anyway the Luas needs electricity to run :rolleyes:

Jammyd

in the case of galway and a luas light rail system, the current proposal for galway is a different form of light rail that is way cheaper than the tracks laid for the luas. there would be 3 lines and the feasabliity study has already been commisioned with recent media suggesting the findings are positive. galway has a much larger population than waterford and spreads 20 miles east to west, the majority of its residents live on the west side while most industry is located on the east. The plan is to create commuter trams to alleviate congestion and connect the new growing suburbs of Bearna, Oranmore ( where a major IDA park is being built) and moycullen with the commercial, education and industrial areas. galway would be justified in getting a light rail position especially since a current scheme like adamstown (approx 15000 new residents by 2015)is being developed beside the new private hospital and proposed line route. schemes in norway have been succesful in cities of populations of over 70000. Waterford is getting a ring road that will help it develop, however galways outer bybass is not to start until 2010, it will only be a bypass and not connect the university or IT with the larger residential areas, therefore it would make the line very feasible.



Corrib Light Rail (Irish: Iarnród Éadrom na Gaillimhe) is the title of a proposal for a light-rail system for Galway City and County. The proposed light rail system takes into account existing urban and suburban structures and projected population densities. It requires 28km (17.5 miles) of track and is expected to cost in the region of €5m per kilometer (€8m per mile). The actual design of the track would minimise disruptions to traffic during construction. The construction of the total track would therefore cost about €140m.


Corrib Light Rail would cater to different groups of transport users including commuters, the elderly, and people with disabilities. The system could also be used for freight transport

Proposed Route
The initial design would be for a two line system, one east-west from Oranmore to Knocknacarra and another north-south route from Ceannt Station to Moycullen. This route would allow for maximum connectivity with existing and future transport services, including the Western rail corridor and commuter rail links to Oranmore, Athenry and Tuam.

fricatus

Where would it run? Well here's an idea:

Line 1: The length of the Dunmore Road, Newtown, down along the Quay, left onto Barronstrand St, down to John St, and right out to Tramore (including a massive park & ride) from there.

Line 2: Massive park & ride out in Ferrybank, through the North Quays (tie-in with a new railway station here if they had any sense, but we're talking CIE here), across a dedicated tram/pedestrian bridge to Barronstrand St. Sharing the tracks with Line 1 as far as Kingsmeadow and then following the Cork Road out to WIT, the industrial estate and possibly on to the new campus at Carriganore. Possibly also a park & ride site somewhere out near the ORR.

Sharing the tracks in the centre of town would allow services to run say from the Dunmore Road to the Cork Road and WIT.

Where would we fit it? Well, some roads would have to be widened, but in some cases the road could be reduced to one lane and run one-way. On the Quay and on the Cork Road, there is plenty of space.

fricatus

Jammyd wrote:

in the case of galway and a luas light rail system, the current proposal for galway is a different form of light rail that is way cheaper than the tracks laid for the luas.

All the more reason to consider it for Waterford.

Jammyd wrote:

galway has a much larger population than waterford and spreads 20 miles east to west

You're exaggerating:

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/PDR%202006%20Commentary.pdf
See page 14: Galway 72,700, Waterford 49,200.


See also some screen captures from Google Earth (same scale):

Jammyd wrote:

the majority of its residents live on the west side while most industry is located on the east.

Same as Waterford, only the other way around! Ye have the sun in your eyes in the morning and in the evening, we don't

Jammyd wrote:

schemes in norway have been succesful in cities of populations of over 70000.

That sounds like a classic case of a number being chosen to bolster an argument. Funny how Galway just squeezes in...

Jammyd wrote:

however galways outer bybass is not to start until 2010, it will only be a bypass and not connect the university or IT with the larger residential areas, therefore it would make the line very feasible.

The logic in that argument is woolly at best... but in any case, the bypass that is currently being built in Waterford is not going to benefit the city's residential areas either (just like in the case you mentioned from Galway). The people it will benefit are commuters from Kilkenny and Wexford (as the new bypass will connect to a link road very near the industrial areas).

The Outer Ring Road in Waterford (though we're very grateful for it!) is only around the same standard as the N6 from Doughiska to Quincentennial Bridge.

I'm all for Galway having light rail, just as long as the case for it in Waterford is considered on the same merits.

JPA

Can't see the need for this at all.

fricatus

JPA wrote:

Can't see the need for this at all.

Well then get your a$$ down at about 8.20 any rainy Tuesday morning to the Dunmore Road between Grantstown and Ardkeen, the Ferrybank dual carriageway, Park Road/William Street, or the Tramore Road/ORR junction. I could go on...

Our man in Havana

All that is needed is a finicular between City Square and Ballybricken to cater for those over burdened with shopping.

JPA

fricatus wrote:

Well then get your a$$ down at about 8.20 any rainy Tuesday morning to the Dunmore Road between Grantstown and Ardkeen, the Ferrybank dual carriageway, Park Road/William Street, or the Tramore Road/ORR junction. I could go on...

People will always use their cars. They think they're wasting their money if they don't get the most use out of them.

mike65

I think a decent set of bus routes with high frequencies and very low charges would achive more. But rather than offer 50c bus rides the government would sooner spend tens of millions on rail and rolling stock as it "looks" better.

Mike.

fricatus

JPA wrote:

People will always use their cars. They think they're wasting their money if they don't get the most use out of them.

True, but:
- Not everyone has a car
- People like their time in bed. If public transport can get people to work quicker, and the cost is not significantly more than the marginal costs of using their cars (petrol + mileage) then they'll use it.
- If you build infrastructure like this, people will build their houses and locate their commercial activities near to it, so there's a positive feedback effect.
- Maybe we should shift the cost of car ownership towards car use? If the government cut VRT, VAT and road tax and set petrol levies so as to recoup the same amount, then people wouldn't feel the way that you describe.

In the specific case of Waterford, every day there cars queuing all the way in from the Rhu Glenn in Slieverue, just to give you an example, and it seems to take them an eternity to get into the city, and more time again to get to wherever they're working. Maybe we should start thinking about park & ride facilities at these high-traffic spots. As long as there were rapid, cheap and frequent connections from there to the major destinations like say, the industrial estate, the city centre, WIT and the hospital, you could stop a huge number of cars from coming into the city in the morning.

Bards

Jammyd wrote:

galway has a much larger population than waterford and spreads 20 miles east to west, .

you will find that within 20 miles radius of Waterford City there are more than 100,000 people.

Galway always seems bigger because of it's larger Boundary. Apples & Oranges springs to mind

merlante

Galway is not *that* much larger than Waterford. Galway is around 72,000 and Waterford is around 50,000. The population of Galway was less than Waterford when I was a kid, so it is to be hoped that Waterford will catch up with Galway in the future, considering that Waterford's boom has come about 8 years later than Galway's.

Galway is nowhere near 20 miles from east to west, are you crazy? Nothing like it. Look at google earth if you don't believe me. In any case, the population without a 20 mile radius of Waterford would be larger than within the same radius of Galway. The 45 minute commute radius of Waterford has a much larger population than Galway. And even if Galway was 20 miles from east to west, that would be a further indictment against mass transit such as Luas's for Galway, because trams need population density. Waterford is a more compact city, which stand in its favour.

Two lines could work in Waterford. One going from the Brasscock to the IDA estate via Ardkeen, Newtown, Mall, Clock Tower, Junction, Poleberry, Cork Rd., WIT, Ballybeg, IDA estate/technology park. The second one could, ideally from Tramore, Airport, Ballytruckle, Johnstown, Junction, Clock tower, Ferrybank, Slieverue. You have a population of about 62,000 people in covered there. Cutting out Tramore and the airport and you cover 52,000 for about 6 less miles, and 2 less stops.

Personally, I'm not really convinced we need trams for cities with < 100,000 people, but if we consider 50,000 - 100,000, then Waterford should be looked at. I think the two example lines I gave above would be great, and if they were there they'd be used.

1huge1

Even looking at Limerick a city of just under 100,000 people I can't see a tram being the best idea, more a commuter rail been more invested in as the city has so much unused railway throughout the city

Can't see this happening in any city outside cork and maybe Limerick but I wouldnt hold my breath
also agree witha previous poster who said a better bus system with more bus lanes etc and cheaper rates

feel free to debate my reply as I know you will

road_high

I think the Dept of Transport are completely jumping the gun by announcing this.
Far more important in my opinion that the EXISTING rail lines in and out of Waterford be developed. Especially dual-tracking of the Dublin line as from the junction at Kildare is an essential in my opinion for public tansport in the s east. And frequent efficient and affordable commuter links between Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford. And sensible timetabling reflecting people's actual needs instead of Irish Rail's unions!

merlante

Could the moderators fix the typo in the title of this thread?

Van

This announcement is nothing more than electioneering and should be seen as such.

killbillvol2

Waterford doesn't need a light rail system IMO. There's really no emphasis on public transport in Waterford. I lived there til I was 20 and I'd say I was on a bus twice. There are still no bus lanes. Surely it'd be cheaper and more practical to try QBCs before the whole town is dug up?

There are more pressing issues anyway as others have mentioned. This is just another piece of election BS which some people will probably swallow.

themonk

killbillvol2 wrote:

Waterford doesn't need a light rail system IMO. There's really no emphasis on public transport in Waterford. I lived there til I was 20 and I'd say I was on a bus twice. There are still no bus lanes. Surely it'd be cheaper and more practical to try QBCs before the whole town is dug up?

There are more pressing issues anyway as others have mentioned. This is just another piece of election BS which some people will probably swallow.

well said ! like what other major city on ireland does not have a sunday bus service

Sully

killbillvol2 wrote:

Waterford doesn't need a light rail system IMO. There's really no emphasis on public transport in Waterford. I lived there til I was 20 and I'd say I was on a bus twice. There are still no bus lanes. Surely it'd be cheaper and more practical to try QBCs before the whole town is dug up?

There are more pressing issues anyway as others have mentioned. This is just another piece of election BS which some people will probably swallow.

Thats one of the reasons I dont think a Luas is needed. Plus, I cant see one going out to Tramore - though something similar is badly needed.

We need to work on what we have. The buses we have (publicly funded) are a shame but the privately owned ones are a pleasure. They are late often or not and take a while to get through city center traffic.

Perhaps those issues need addressing before we go about ripping the place apart to bring in a Luas track.

JMcL

AFAIK what they're proposing isn't actually "rail" in the same sense as the LUAS, rather a bendy-bus style thing that look a bit like the LUAS trams, but runs on-street on diesel/biodiesel, which makes more sense. What's needed is more frequent services - our European neighbours are used to buses coming along reliably every 5 minutes, which is why public transport works there. Whether the bus in question looks like a tram is irrelevant, so long as there are enough of them!

One to put to Cullen when he turns up on the doorstep over the next month.

Jammyd

sorry i ment to state cities in Sweden with a population of just over 70000 has a feasible tram sytem the city i refer to is Norrköping (population 83000 including greater urban area.

The argument for galway is based in projections that the city is growing a lot faster than waterford and is set to exceed 100,000 by 2020.

Also the 20 miles east to west i refer to is from bearna to oranmore these are the new suburbs of galway. there importance is shown by the fact they are the polar ends of the proposed tram lines. (Use google earth and check it out yourself)

Please do not argue against catchment areas, it is silly to discuss a greater catchement area of waterford as urban centres such as kilkenny, Dungarvan,wexford and carlow all tend to get thrown in there,these towns although not completely self sufficent or reliant on waterford, do have large local employment and a wide range of retail and service facilities

anways imo i dont believe these projects will ever get off the ground. Cork and perhaps galway projects may get sanctioned but as for limerick and waterford it is doubtful when listening to what politicians and CIE have to say.

Lets not make this a Galway vs Waterford thread..
Galway wins hands down (only kidding just wanted to rustle yer feathers a bit more)

Cabaal

Why can't we all just get along?

mad man

Jammyd wrote:

sorry i ment to state cities in Sweden with a population of just over 70000 has a feasible tram sytem the city i refer to is Norrköping (population 83000 including greater urban area.

The argument for galway is based in projections that the city is growing a lot faster than waterford and is set to exceed 100,000 by 2020.

Also the 20 miles east to west i refer to is from bearna to oranmore these are the new suburbs of galway. there importance is shown by the fact they are the polar ends of the proposed tram lines. (Use google earth and check it out yourself)

Please do not argue against catchment areas, it is silly to discuss a greater catchement area of waterford as urban centres such as kilkenny, Dungarvan,wexford and carlow all tend to get thrown in there,these towns although not completely self sufficent or reliant on waterford, do have large local employment and a wide range of retail and service facilities

anways imo i dont believe these projects will ever get off the ground. Cork and perhaps galway projects may get sanctioned but as for limerick and waterford it is doubtful when listening to what politicians and CIE have to say.

Lets not make this a Galway vs Waterford thread..
Galway wins hands down (only kidding just wanted to rustle yer feathers a bit more)

Your twenty mile assetion is a flagrant exageration.Any right thinking person can see this.The Dublin Urban area contains a million people and still doesn't exceed twenty miles.The fact of the matter is Waterford doesn't have to include Dungarvan and Carlow or any other large town to inflate its population.Tramore is efffectively a suburb of Waterford and the combined populations come to well over sixty thousand.One third of Galways population are students therefore Waterfords natural population is still larger.When you go oot to a 12 mile radii the populations eclips each other and Waterford exceeds Galway after that.

Things can change JD.If WIT receives uni status and the west loses the artificial economic conditions that it has depended on (which it will) then Galway may not seem as attractive anymore to investors.Growth may flatline and this may not be a bad thing as obviously the Galway areas cannot manage the unsustainable growth it is currently experiencing.However the fact is that a Luas for Galway even with double the population would be a tremendous waste of money.It would be typical of the Western Pork barrell politics that has plagued this country over the years.It also shows the Greens are not much different to FF at the end of the day.