Are mediums a hoax??

Adam:)

Hello,

I used to believe in mediums but I'm not so sure anymore. There's a person I know who's passed on and would like to hear information about. However, I've seen programmes on TV that show that mediums are con artists and once they get your name and address they can do a few check ups like where you live etc and then pretend that they're reeceiving messages from the dead. So is there a medium out there that can prove me wrong and provide a name of the person that I know who died? Sorry for sounding so sceptical.
Thanks and no I'm not just looking for a free reading-I'd gladly pay!

Zombrex

Adam:) wrote:

Hello,

I used to believe in mediums but I'm not so sure anymore. There's a person I know who's passed on and would like to hear information about. However, I've seen programmes on TV that show that mediums are con artists and once they get your name and address they can do a few check ups like where you live etc and then pretend that they're reeceiving messages from the dead. So is there a medium out there that can prove me wrong and provide a name of the person that I know who died? Sorry for sounding so sceptical.
Thanks and no I'm not just looking for a free reading-I'd gladly pay!

Some mediums are a hoax obviously (just like some electrical engineers are a hoax), and as you say the methods used by these hoaxers have been exposed a number of times through out the years.

But one couldn't say (and shouldn't say, as per charter) that ALL mediums are a hoax as you couldn't possible know. It all depends on your personal beliefs. If you believe in an afterlife and spirits then it stands to reason that there would be a method of communication with these spirits. If you don't, well it is unlikely you will believe in mediums either. Also if you are aware of the methods used by hoaxers you will be more likely to be able to spot if you are being conned.

I think the resident medium Mysteria is on a "tempory leave of absance" at the moment, but I'm sure others can recommend a good medium in your area, or Mysteria can when she gets back.

6th

There is a huge thread stickied at the top of this forum about mediums and psychic that is a good place to look for peoples recommendations.

Wicknight is absolutely correct, there are frauds and hoaxers in every profession. You are always best to go with the recommendation of someone who has personal experience.

For me, I found June Davy in The House of Astrology excellent.

odonnell

So in a world of 6 billion people, you believe that because con artists exist, REAL mediums couldnt possibly be the real deal? Oh well... i guess all the fake brands and rip off armani suits must mean that addidas, nike, armani, etc must not exist!! by your reasoning anyway....

have a wee think first before you tar everyone with the same brush.

Yes there is such a thing as a psychic medium in my opinion, yes some are con artists, yes some ghosts are faked, or are natural phenomenon, yes real apparitions also exist.

Its not always black or white you know.

Adam:) wrote:

Hello,

I used to believe in mediums but I'm not so sure anymore. There's a person I know who's passed on and would like to hear information about. However, I've seen programmes on TV that show that mediums are con artists and once they get your name and address they can do a few check ups like where you live etc and then pretend that they're reeceiving messages from the dead. So is there a medium out there that can prove me wrong and provide a name of the person that I know who died? Sorry for sounding so sceptical.
Thanks and no I'm not just looking for a free reading-I'd gladly pay!

Zombrex

odonnell wrote:

Yes there is such a thing as a psychic medium in my opinion,

Can you recommend one to the original poster?

I think that is all he is looking for.

6th

I did already, but as i said he should check out the sticky on mediums & psychics.

Adam:)

Apologies for taking so long to respond. Thank you all for your responses. I didn't mean to 'tar every medium with the same brush'-I tried to make it quite clear that I wasn't by apologising for being so sceptical. Thanks for your help guys. And what sticky is at the bottom of the page?! Couldn't find it! Cheers:)

monkeyfudge

Here it is:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054883158

Personally I'd consider anyone charging for such a service to be dubious whether they are genuine or not.

Ziycon

Some Mediums (Not all) use methods called cold reading and hot reading, basicly cold reading is a method of obtaining information about a person based on their response to a very wide open question, the medium can say for example something like, "There is someone close to you thats not the best at the moment", they would then go on to say "its a male or female in your life" they would then go by your unaware response lets say you react to female, next they would say something like "Its a mother, sister, dauthger, girlfriend, wife" until they hit the right one and see which you responsed to most, they work their way through by your unaware response to certain situations but if their was no response at the first question they would drop it and pursue a different angle!

Thats just a very very basic example of cold reading. Hot reading is basicly where the medium will research you before the reading or listen in on your conversations before you have the reading!

Personnally i would never go to a medium.

Aisling&M

YES, Some are & NO some are not ......

Are all chocolates good?

YES some are (belgian yummy) and NO some are not (cheap cooking chocolate).

I am a medium and have knows some amazing ones so have to say from my experience there are some real ones out there. But I have a rational mind and have to say that if I did not experience it first hand I probably wouldn't believe it so I can understand the skepticism especially when frauds are exposed so visibly.

The principle of 'Bad News sells more papers' applies to this topic.

Oryx

I agree with Aisling...there are frauds out there, you have to use your judgement and common sense. If the medium or psychic seems suspect, and seems to be cold or hot reading you, get out of there:)

Oh and chocolate can be fattening... dont over do it. Mediums psychics have their function and can help you in some situations, but dont depend on them to provide all the answers. They have to come from you at the end of the day.

Ziycon

KatieK wrote:

...and seems to be cold or hot reading you, get out of there:)

I can be very hard to tell, even impossible if the person whats something to believe or a certain answer to be told!

magnumlady

I couldn't believe the amount of people at Derek Acorah that were giving him answers. He just seemed to be expanding from what they were telling him.

Oryx

Yes or no answers, with no other information offered, helps stop cold reading, or at least makes it more difficult. Readers going from the vague to the specific (Im seeing a person... a woman...yes...a mother?....no? a granny... eh... an aunt...? etc) are probably not doing so well. A good reader, even if they give the information bit by bit, should be bang on, and not backtrack or make the info 'fit'.

tuxy

odonnell wrote:

So in a world of 6 billion people, you believe that because con artists exist, REAL mediums couldnt possibly be the real deal?

the thing is you can show evidence to prove a medium is fake.
how could you prove one is real?

Oryx

This kind of discussion goes on here quite a bit. How to prove something paranormal is real. I dont think, by its very nature, that mediumship lends itself to scientific analysis. I think proof rests with the weight of information given, versus the chance of producing this information 'accidentally' or by guessing. The information given is not like picking a card from a deck of 52, where you can work out the exact statistics for getting it right by chance. The information is generally specific to a person or situation. I mean, what are the chances of getting details such as physical description, name, age and such correct in combination, by pure guess work? (of course you would need to establish that cold/hot reading could not be a factor.)

The problem also is that the reading is a personal interaction between two people (and one spirit ) and 'proving' facts in a case like that is like proving the effectiveness of say, counselling. You can only see the effectiveness as an overall result. One readers description of a person, or interpretation of an event may vary subtly from actuality, but the basis for it may be correct.

stevenmu

Are mediums a hoax ? Certainly some are, and certainly some are not, or at least some genuinely believe in what they are doing. Whether or not the yare genuinely in touch with spirits is another question which really comes down to a matter of faith. Personally I'd look at it as something to try out of interest, but not something to be taken too seriously or relied upon for anything of consequence. Even the best genuine mediums can't guarantee results, everything may go exactly as you'd want, or maybe nothing will happen.

SkepticOne

A hoax implies a deliberate attempt to mislead. As stevemnu points out, this need not be the case. A lot of information is passed on intuitively through body language in ways that both the sender and receiver might not be consciously aware. We can't call this a hoax even though no paranormal means are employed.

solas

I agree,some folk genuinely beleive that what they are doing is acting as a medium with "the otherside", I'm just not so sure that what they are doing is genuinely communicating with spirits. I think spirit needs to be defined a little more before anyone can make such claims.

hello to all btw


[edit:maybe they're subconsciously picking up personal information via the "bee " field ]

6th

solas wrote:

[edit:maybe they're subconsciously picking up personal information via the "bee " field ]

Funny on one hand but very possible on the other.

solas wrote:

hello to all btw

hello, you've missed you

Oryx

Interesting point, solas (hello btw ) Ive often wondered how much of any reading is picked up from the sitters aura/mental telepathy/bee field.

solas

neat trick all the same and still qualifies as some level of paranormal eh..activity. Personally I'd have to see with my own eyes or have some independant adjuicator confirm the existance of spirits before I'd accept info recieved as being genuinely from spirit. *shakeshead*
(good to see you katie)

6th

Like someone said earlier, hoaxing is more about intent than anything else.

solas

in saying that for what I've seen personally and experienced, I've been able to convince myself that it's all in the head, so when it comes to others they'd really need to dig deep before I'd buy but if it helps people through grief or gives them something to believe in then what the heck eh?

dreamingoak

i realise this thread is a little old now, but i am a clairvoyant medium. ill be the first one to say that nothing is cast in stone especially regarding the future, and that ive been wrong before, but i have been able to help a lot of people to come to terms with the passing on of a loved one , and i always try to do the very best i can. i often can get defining features, such as the person smoked heavily, or was very possesive over their china! the humour of the spirit world never ceases to amaze me. in short, If adam is looking for a reading still, i will do my best to help him out, if he's interested.

mossieh

Has there ever been a single documented scientific study of a medium at work that proved that was happening was real and not cold reading or invention? Just one uncontrovertible example?

Occams razor: all things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. The simplest explanation for this phenomenon is cold reading.

If people take comfort from it, well and good but for a medium to charge money for this 'service' is taking advantage of the bereaved in my opinion. True comfort and sympathy for a bereaved person should not cost money.

6th

What about counselling? Or therapy?

mossieh

6th wrote:

What about counselling? Or therapy?

Do you think that the services provided by trained psychology and medical professionals are equivalent to those provided by mediums?

Do you think that some charlatan pretending to talk to a dead relative is as constructive and honest as a therapist helping a bereaved person to come to terms with the fact that the dead person is gone?

Besides, there are several free bereavement counselling organisations in Ireland.

6th

mossieh wrote:

Do you think that the services provided by trained psychology and medical professionals are equivalent to those provided by mediums?

Do you think that some charlatan pretending to talk to a dead relative is as constructive and honest as a therapist helping a bereaved person to come to terms with the fact that the dead person is gone?

Besides, there are several free bereavement counselling organisations in Ireland.

You say pretending but I've experienced some very good mediums & psychics first hand.

No I dont think they are at all equivalent to medical professionals but are compareable to some counselling.

Yes there are free bereavement services, I've know some that have helped people and some that did them no good.

I'm as against charlatans as anyone but my personal experiences have shown me its not all charlatans.

mossieh

6th wrote:

I'm as against charlatans as anyone but my personal experiences have shown me its not all charlatans.

Which leads back to my first question:
Has there ever been a single documented scientific study of a medium at work that proved that what was happening was real and not cold reading or invention? Just one uncontrovertible example?

meanmachine3

A discussion like this can go on for a life time and still there will be both believers and non believers.what it basically boils down to is " fear of the unknown". what we know about the paranormal world is only about .001% of it's true nature.there are thousands of people out there with these gifts and most of them will stay hidden. the only way someone is going to believe in any of this ,be it a seer, medium , healer,a physic etc. is to experience it first hand. alot of these people who have these gift/gifts dont like using what they have. for anyone that does have any of the gifts the first encounter is one of the most scariest and yet magnificent experiences a person can have in a lifetime.

karynp

When you book an appointment for a reading they dont ask for your full name or your address so I cant accept that they check you out that way,yes,their are cons out there,bad at what they do,BUT on the other hand,there are also very good mediums out there.

karynp

monkeyfudge wrote:

Here it is:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054883158

Personally I'd consider anyone charging for such a service to be dubious whether they are genuine or not.

Well, how do you expect them to live then? Also, theres a thing called exchanging of energies ,creating a balance. God didnt put us here to suffer my friend,if this service is given full time,then a reasonable charge is not an issue for the majority of folk. I respect your opinion but i also ask do you get paid for your work?

karynp

KatieK wrote:

Yes or no answers, with no other information offered, helps stop cold reading, or at least makes it more difficult. Readers going from the vague to the specific (Im seeing a person... a woman...yes...a mother?....no? a granny... eh... an aunt...? etc) are probably not doing so well. A good reader, even if they give the information bit by bit, should be bang on, and not backtrack or make the info 'fit'.

A good medium does not want you to fill in the details,just yes or no if you can or cant accept or understand what they are talking about,as other spirits can come to them during a reading that may not be for you,its best to be honest in your replies without giving the whole story away.

karynp

tuxy wrote:

the thing is you can show evidence to prove a medium is fake.
how could you prove one is real?

A real medium should give you evidence from spirit world from the person they are dealing with. If they cannot give you ANYTHING you understand then they most likely are fake.

karynp

Not everyone who sees a medium does so outve grief ,some just go to see what they have to say, Im wondering has everyone here whos thrown in a negative response been to see one??
If not...........then wheres your argument?

mossieh wrote:

Has there ever been a single documented scientific study of a medium at work that proved that was happening was real and not cold reading or invention? Just one uncontrovertible example?

Occams razor: all things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. The simplest explanation for this phenomenon is cold reading.

If people take comfort from it, well and good but for a medium to charge money for this 'service' is taking advantage of the bereaved in my opinion. True comfort and sympathy for a bereaved person should not cost money.

mossieh

karynp wrote:

Not everyone who sees a medium does so outve grief ,some just go to see what they have to say,

No doubt, but many people who do resort to them are bereaved and open to manipulation, this is the bedrock of the profession.

karynp wrote:

Im wondering has everyone here whos thrown in a negative response been to see one??
If not...........then wheres your argument?

Why would someone who believes it's all cynical trickery participate in it? And why would that invalidate my argument? Does the fact that I don't believe in the tooth fairy disqualify me from talking about her/him/it?

I sometimes wonder how, in this relatively enlightened age we live in, with so much information at our fingertips, conmen continue to thrive. I guess as long as a subset of society are happy to operate with their analytical and critical faculties smothered in wishful thinking, they always will.

6th

mossieh wrote:

Which leads back to my first question:
Has there ever been a single documented scientific study of a medium at work that proved that what was happening was real and not cold reading or invention? Just one uncontrovertible example?

To my knowledge, NO. Also there has never been a single documented scientific study of God at work and yet millions of people worldwide not only believe in him (or her etc) but many devote their life to him and his churches.

The role of mediums in peoples lives tends to be minimal in the vast majority of cases. The Catholic Church (for example) asks that its teaching be the guiding light in peoples lives, they also take in alot more public money than mediums as a whole I'm sure.

People turn to mediums and psychics because they believe that these people can give them insight. I am sure i could get a list of a hundred people who will say that a reader has given them information they believe was acquired by 'paranormal means'. Its a belief, and people are intitled to that whether others agree with it or not.

Part of my point is that many people will challenge the belief in paranormal phenomenon as they are relatively easy pickings. God on the other hand tends not to get questioned as much (imo) here on Boards and in alot of places because its a battle that can not be won.

Now I am not the best person to have a debate with over these things because I am not out to convince anyone. I dont believe either side should push their opinions down the other teams throat. I am skeptical myself, where is not for my own experiences I would be as challenging as the yourself.

In the past I have opened up trips and events I have arranged to anyone, giving believers and non-believers the opportunity to possibly experiences paranormal phenomenon for themselves.

Are Mediums a hoax? As stevenmu said above "Certainly some are, and certainly some are not, or at least some genuinely believe in what they are doing." Again its about belief as as I've said before - a hoax is all about the intention to deceive.

6th

mossieh wrote:

Why would someone who *believes it's all cynical trickery participate in it?

For me I would say because I could only accept or respect an informed opinion.

Surely you can see that coming to a judgement without looking at or experiencing all the possiblities could be seen as ignorant and unscientific?

*Again belief comes into it. You have your beliefs based on your experiences, or lack there of, just as anyone else has theirs?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

karynp wrote:

Well, . God didnt put us here to suffer my friend

talked to him, have you?

God on the other hand tends not to get questioned as much (imo) here on Boards and in alot of places because its a battle that can not be won.

ummm..

do you read much of boards at all? I only ask because that is certainly not the impression of peoples attitudes to god that I've gleamed from my time here..

6th

karynp wrote:

Im wondering has everyone here whos thrown in a negative response been to see one?

Well I can say plenty negative about some mediums but I think the fairest way to judge is on a case by case basis.

Sylvia Brown (who I personally believe is a hack) is a psychic & medium who for many years has been held in very high regard by alot of people. Skeptics have always questioned (some would say hounded) her and her claims. Recently (I must find the thread and link to it) she was outed on a very big case for being unethical, uncaring & just plain WRONG ... not a little bit wrong but truck loads of it!

She was hugely popular and was/is very in demand. If she can get to that stage in her career by whatever means she did why should people be expected to in the abilities of people like her? Personally I think its wrong to claim all are bogus based on the likes of Sylvia Brown but people have every reason to be suspicious and skeptical - cynical is another matter.

Best to judge on a case by cases basis and personal experiences where possible.

6th

Mordeth wrote:

do you read much of boards at all?

More than I should I would imagine.

Mordeth wrote:

I only ask because that is certainly not the impression of peoples attitudes to god that I've gleamed from my time here..

I'm sure the religious forums get there fair share of trolls, cynics etc but Paranormal does seem to be one that people regularily feel is easy pickings. Just my opinion of course.

mossieh

6th wrote:

For me I would say because I could only accept or respect an informed opinion.

Surely you can see that coming to a judgement without looking at or experiencing all the possiblities could be seen as ignorant and unscientific?

*Again belief comes into it. You have your beliefs based on your experiences, or lack there of, just as anyone else has theirs?

There is a fundamental difference between a belief based on empirical and reasoned analysis and one based on wishful thinking or lazy-mindedness.

Those who buy into fanciful and utterly illogical explanations for situations they don't understand are quick to accuse those who don't of being close-minded, but the great breakthroughs in human development have been made by scientists, not magicians. Automatically accepting the fantastic explanation over the mundane is how we operated as a society in the dark ages. Imagination is required to make breakthroughs in our knowledge of how the universe works but without a sound basis of logic and common sense, all you're left with is cloud talk and alchemy.

It irritates me, frankly, to hear obviously intelligent people devote so much time to what logic tells me is nonsense. The real, bricks and mortar world we live in is more amazing and exciting than we can yet fathom, it doesn't need to be embellished with angels and bogeymen.

Put down the your necronomicon/bible/koran and pick up A Brief History of Time. And stop wasting yours, life is too short.

6th

I cant (or rather wont) argue with you on this for a few reasons:

1) As I said I am not out to convince or convert anyone.

2) I have yet to have a decent explaination put forward for why, on a regular basis, I have not only seen but interacted with energies (in the paranormal understanding of the word) that could be concidered ghosts, spirits, entities. Its not like I have any medical or mental problem that would cause these happenings - at least I have never been suspected of or tested for any. I am a normal guy with a normal life. Married to the woman of my dreams, a beautiful daughter, a son on the way, a job I enjoy, interests outside of the paranormal area - there is no reason for me to desperately cling to illusions or fanciful notions.

and finally

3) Your agressive tone and choice of language is both offensive and patronizing. Of course I understnad that its born out of frustration, and not malice, which is why I choose not to report it.

I do completely agree that there are undoubtably people who turn to the paranormal and spiritual because their lives might lack excitement or are pushed towards it due to grief. Anyone who thinks this is not the case is fooling themselves. I have refused to talk to some people who have contacted me because I believed they were asking questions for the wrong reasons. I've had PMs from more than one Buffy fan who was out for the trendy factor

6th

mossieh wrote:

Put down the your necronomicon/bible/koran and pick up A Brief History of Time.

I've read none of those books, I live my life mostly *through my experiences of the world, not other peoples.

*Edited because I cant spell after properly midnight.

6th

mossieh wrote:

The real, bricks and mortar world we live in is more amazing and exciting than we can yet fathom, it doesn't need to be embellished with angels and bogeymen.

For most people life is about love. Now I could be wrong but can science say its truely and absolutely understands why we choose to love some people and not others?

I am not talking about the basic urge to continue the species, I understand that there are chemicals at play when it comes to lust etc and that men (for example) might be predisposed to going for a woman who will bare them children ... I get all that. But can science tell me why, lets say, a man or woman would continue to love their partner even in cases where it is know that one or the other can not have offspring? Or why I myself would be willing to lay down my life for my wife, children and possible any other human beings, if put in the position?

mossieh, is there not an illogical side to you that loves or has loved someone so much that you would do things which make no sense? And in the face of such love is the important thing to discover why it is you love them or it it to simple love them?

Are we at a stage in science and life where we can say that the impossible and fantasical of today is not part of the "bricks and mortar" or tomorrow? Is it not possible that (for example) an element of the human "spirit" could transend death and exist on a plane that is currently outside of our understanding and yet some have the ability to experience it at some level?

Aisling&M

Mossieh, does it really have to be a case or one OR the other, regarding Science V's the Paranormal?
In my view as someone who believes in and uses spiritualism most days in my life I've come to accept that is is just as much a part of my make-up physiologically, psychologically, and spiritually. Being able to perceive spirits etc does not come from a sparkly cloud above my head. It comes from me, my atoms, my energy and my sould.........science and spirit go hand in hand in my life and perhaps your anger wouldn't be so strong if you stopped to consider that these experiences that some have and you have not can be attributed in both aspects.

Before it was discovered that the chair you are sitting on contained a many micro-universes of atoms and molecules would you have accepted the possibility? Similarly I do believe that we will discover the scientific source and effect of paranormal phenomenon as we have discovered many other wonderful occurences, like space travel, mobile telephones, x-ray machines..........all of which 1000 years ago would have been laughable subjects.

Good luck with your searchings.

mossieh

6th wrote:

Your agressive tone and choice of language is both offensive and patronizing. Of course I understnad that its born out of frustration, and not malice, which is why I choose not to report it.

I apologise for that, you assessed it accurately.

6th wrote:

mossieh, is there not an illogical side to you that loves or has loved someone so much that you would do things which make no sense? And in the face of such love is the important thing to discover why it is you love them or it it to simple love them?

Yes there is however I think it is not beyond analysis. The reproductive urge operates on a very deep level in the conciousness of an animal and will tend to override reason even in an animal capable of rational thought. It might not sound particularly romantic but there you go. There are also plenty of theories as to why altruistic behaviour may have benefits in terms of natural selection.

6th wrote:

Are we at a stage in science and life where we can say that the impossible and fantasical of today is not part of the "bricks and mortar" or tomorrow? Is it not possible that (for example) an element of the human "spirit" could transend death and exist on a plane that is currently outside of our understanding and yet some have the ability to experience it at some level?

To the first question i would say yes, what is imagined today may be real tomorrow, but if I was looking for concrete examples of that in culture and literature I think Asimov or Clarke or Hawking would be a better bet than Terry Pratchett or Mystic Meg.

To the latter question, I would also say a VERY cautious yes as the empirical evidence is not there, but at this stage of our development we can't expect to know and understand everything.

Our justice system is based on the premise that you are innocent until proven guilty. This is a sound principle. I think it should be applied in the paranormal/spiritual/religious field too, i.e. false until proven true. Unfortunately, (from my point of view) the opposite seems to be the case for many who post here.

6th

mossieh wrote:

The reproductive urge operates on a very deep level in the conciousness of an animal and will tend to override reason even in an animal capable of rational thought. It might not sound particularly romantic but there you go. There are also plenty of theories as to why altruistic behaviour may have benefits in terms of natural selection.

But my point of why some people love and spend their lifes with someone who can not have children (infertility, same sex relationships etc) are not covered by the "continuation of the species" urges.

My point is only that one of the most important factors in how people lives their lives is one that "can" defy logic.

Aisling&M

Just one more quick thought from me to counteract your statement that it was ONLY scientists who discovered the major breakthroughs in history. Well of course, they are the ones equipped with the brainpower to prove what I'm sure a lot of spiritual people and those with a great insight imagined long before.

Also, from your observations of Science, i thought you might like to consider that the ability some have to foresee the future or see spirits is something biological and rational, but as yet unexplained. Almost every person can do simple mathematics in day to day living yet very few are gifted to understand the theories and equations of complex equations.
so too I believe everyone has an 'instinctual' ability they use daily and then a few are able to have this amplified into an ability to see what most cannot.
This applies to any talent/trait......art, music, language........

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Almost every person can do simple mathematics in day to day living yet very few are gifted to understand the theories and equations of complex equations.

yes, because most people are taught how to do simple sums and math, whereas most people wuss out of mathematics before it gets to the good stuff. that is entirely to do with teaching, nothing to do with natural ability. People with natural abilities for maths are very different from the rest of us.

art and music are fine examples of what you were talking about, but language is again something that is learned. If we didn't have people talking at us all the time as we were children, we wouldn't be able to speak or understand anything. Google for feral children and have a look at the proper, natural state of humanity.