Sinn Féin-the southern elete and the biased media

GabharBrean

As a lifelong SF voter (I belong to no political party), I think the petty carping by non-SF'ers is just humorous. As Repulicans we were told to by the southern ruling elite to accept British rule. Forget the injustices; forget the repression; forget the isolation.

If we wanted to change things, we had to organise politically and vote for change. So we did. And we learned to do it well. Now the ruling eco-political elite in the south want no part with us. Why? What are they afraid of?

The "Irish" media continually spin news stories and selective history snippets to dampen the growth of SF. So what. We who have come from marginalisation to equity know only too well how propoganda is used to narrow political ends. Our British peace keepers have been doing it for decades.

Hopefully, we have broken the cozy political mold in the North (as indeed have the DUP). Are the Southern elite afraid of this process? Will SF stay the course and continue to shaken up the cozy elites? Hopefully, they will.

Ulster9

As a lifelong SF voter (I belong to no political party), I think the petty carping by non-SF'ers is just humorous. As Repulicans we were told to by the southern ruling elite to accept British rule. Forget the injustices; forget the repression; forget the isolation.

If we wanted to change things, we had to organise politically and vote for change. So we did. And we learned to do it well. Now the ruling eco-political elite in the south want no part with us. Why? What are they afraid of?

The "Irish" media continually spin news stories and selective history snippets to dampen the growth of SF. So what. We who have come from marginalisation to equity know only too well how propoganda is used to narrow political ends. Our British peace keepers have been doing it for decades.

Hopefully, we have broken the cozy political mold in the North (as indeed have the DUP). Are the Southern elite afraid of this process? Will SF stay the course and continue to shaken up the cozy elites? Hopefully, they will.

Agree with this.I have found the southern media insulting to Sinn Fein and its supporters.The rubbish that the Sunday Independent print every week attacking Sinn Fein is unbelievable in its blatant lies.
These so called revisionist journalists like Cruise O Brien, Dudley Edwards and Eoghan Harris are not credible as they have got it wrong so much and have been against the peace process for so long.The less said about Jim Cusack and Brendan O Connor the better.
As a Cavanman,regarding my vote i will be doing my bit to ensure the return of Caoimhghin O Caolain and hope to see many others returned so that Sinn Fein can forward its New Ireland agenda.

oscarBravo

Speaking for myself, I dislike Sinn Féin's continued inability to distance themselves completely from violence. When they fully embrace democratic politics, and unequivocally reject violence, I'll start to evaluate them solely on their merits as a political party.

Doesn't mean I'll ever vote for them, but I've surprised myself in the past.

Ulster9

Speaking for myself, I dislike Sinn Féin's continued inability to distance themselves completely from violence. When they fully embrace democratic politics, and unequivocally reject violence, I'll start to evaluate them solely on their merits as a political party.

Doesn't mean I'll ever vote for them, but I've surprised myself in the past.

But havent they already done this?If not what do you require to be satisfied?Sinn Fein has commited itself to peaceful and democratic means.The present leadership has brought its grassroots further towards constitutional politics than any other republican leader in Irish history.Sinn Fein has delivered on its commitments regarding decommisioning despite Loyalist continuing to hold weapons, British army activity(although in recent months they made great progress in demilitarisation), signed up to policing while question marks still remain over Inteligence interference in civic policing.You see they have unequivocally rejected violence.The IRA has also asked all its members to engage in purely peacefull activities.
You see i think some people will always try to link Sinn Fein with violence because of IRA activity throughout the troubles without understanding or recognising the context of it.Some people will even use selective attrocities to score cheap political points.

I'd imagine it will take a generation to fully disconnect SF south of the border from robberies like Adare etc
Most people down south you see had little tollerance for the likes of that.
Theres nothing eletist about being in the 90% or so cohort of the south that abhored the IRA campaign.

That said, I do think there is a vibrancy,enthusiasm and new departure evident in a lot of the young first time SF candidates and in a lot of their candidates in fact which is refreshing to see.

I'd just need to see some more sellable economic policies before I'd consider them.That might take a while too.
Perhaps at stage 3 of their new departure?

oscarBravo

Granted, they've done all of the above, and I applaud those moves. When they co-operate fully with the PSNI into the investigation of Robert McCartney's murder and distance themselves completely from the murderers of Gerry McCabe, I'll start to believe the rhetoric more completely.

I understand that for political reasons they need to be careful about alienating that element of republicanism that longs for the good old days of murder and mayhem; that's (part of) their constituency. I don't belong to that constituency, and as long as they feel a need to pander to it, I want nothing to do with them.

But that's just me.

whippet

Ulster9 ... you have accused the media and the major political parties in the republic of anti SF spin ... stones and glass houses comes to mind.

While I do not agree with the majority of SF policies and ideals, I can not take them serious as a political force. I disturbs me to hear of the rise in the polls that they are seeing.

SF is still very much linked to paramilitary and criminal activities, this I have no doubt about, any such party will never get my vote.

Any politician who can campaign and almost demand that a convicted murderer who shot guard in cold blood while robbing a bank be released as a POW is not worthy of a vote. It really is sickining, these people didin't kill Gerry McCabe to save dear old ireland .. it was a criminal gang stealing money from a bank.

Couple that with election posters and wepons in the boot of a car, taking months for your party's president to encourage people not to cover up for another man's murder. The whole Northern bank robbery fiasco, money in a Daz box etc ... these people could never represent me or even take a mandate from me.

The demographics of SF rise in the polls is quite simply appealing to people who didin't traditionally vote. In my opinion they are using local emotional politics to gain votes, almost like independent candidates and then having a different party mandate at a national level. The bigger picture is not what the individual canditates were elected on, it is a very cute and smart strategy but one which worries me.

Colonel Sanders

I do believe there are subjected to a lot of bias from the media.

However whenever i speak to college friends from different constituencies they all tell me that SF have masive resources behind their election campaigns. Where does this money come from?

Until i am entirely sure they are no longer linked to organisations involved with crime I couldn't vote for them.

GabharBrean

First of all let me say I'm suprised this shows as a topic. I did not post this as a thread but as a reply to another topic. Is this standard practice? And I definitely don't like the title.

As I've stated, I consider myself a Republican, not a SF rep. I'm not going to defend SF. That's their job. Also, I'm sure many who consider themselves Republican won't agree some or all of my with my views.

As an observation. The DUP party, the policing board in the North, the Monitoring Commission, ad naseum have issued "a clean bill of health". Obviously some people's standards are higher than the big man's. Has Martin smacked a dinner lady around lately? Mary Lou used abusive language towards a traffic warden?

No doubt the media will continue to highlight what the Republican baddies did. (I'm sure they're hoping and praying that somebody with a tenuous or otherwise link to Republicanism does something naughty during the near future). It can then lump all Republicans together as vile, mean people. Sure, what other large section of the Irish community can be so sterotyped? On what other section can such select prejudices be practised?

It will ignore or brush-stroke over the repressive Northern regime. It will not mention the Bratash military solutions or, if it does, highlight their "peace-keeping" role. It will portray the Southern regime as right minded and above all the mess down there.

Some of the same people who take the high moral ground about violence in Iraq and other places seem to think it was alright for Republicans to have violence used against them. Sure, didn't Republicans bring it upon themselves. Everything would have been so much easier if they had just accepted Northern laws at any price.

As the pace of the election gathers, items to beat the Republicans with will be taken out of moth balls. The tribunals will be laid to rest for a while. Numerous road repairs will take place. Republicans will take all the hype and spin with a grain of salt. We've heard it all before. We know all too well how the ruling cliques don't give an inch.

If SF, or any other party for that matter, wants my vote, they have to tell me that they want to help run a country - not just an economy. I do not want a Top/Down society, i.e. one where laws are handed down from upon high to requlate us for our own good. I would like a party to publish it ideas and then, if in government, fulfill them. I feel the present government has hidden agendas. If they want all health care privatised, just say so. Let us vote on it.

The countryside is a sterilised dormitory. Drugs and random attacks in small towns are the norm. Are the media going to press these issues? Not likely. Or, if they do, we'll be told we need more police; better security systems; more restrictive legisilation. We'll be encouraged to isolate ourselves. We will be encouraged to identify ourselves with our material status. If somebody identifies themselves as Republican, well, that's just subversive.

Ulster9

Granted, they've done all of the above, and I applaud those moves. When they co-operate fully with the PSNI into the investigation of Robert McCartney's murder and distance themselves completely from the murderers of Gerry McCabe, I'll start to believe the rhetoric more completely.

You see its media spin that has you linking Sinn Fein with Robert McCartneys murder.People who dont understand the North and the history of policing will struggle with this.People are often heard saying Sinn Fein should "hand over the Robert McCartney murderers".Its not within Sinn Feins gift to do that, or to sort out crime.The man who killed Robert McCartney was a thug who happened to have been in the IRA.Now i believe its a police job to solve this and the lack of charges so far is a result of the historical baggage of police relations with nationalist areas.Sinn Fein have called on memebers of the public to co-operate with the police in relation to this.Thats all they can do and is all any political party would be expected to do.The new era of co-operation with Sinn Fein and the PSNI hopefully will ensure that justice can be administered properly for everyone in the North.
The issue with the Gerry McCabe murder is a difficult one for republicans to deal with.This is because political parties have played politics with this.I as a republican was disgusted with this killing in Adare and i dont particularly have much sympathy for the men involved.Its a very emotive issue but the harsh reality is that as a result many prisoners were released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and the supreme court recognises that they are qualifying prisoners but only the Dept. of Justice can release them.
The IRA often robbed banks to fund the continuing struggle in the North but they were forbidden from engaging in armed action with Southern forces so the incident in Adare was disgracefull and tragic.

is_that_so

My comments on SF have already been made here.
I suspect this thread is going to go much the same way. Sinn Fein are the only ones responsible for how well or badly Sinn Fein do in the same way that FF or FG are responsible for how they do.

Ulster9

I do believe there are subjected to a lot of bias from the media.

However whenever i speak to college friends from different constituencies they all tell me that SF have masive resources behind their election campaigns. Where does this money come from?

Until i am entirely sure they are no longer linked to organisations involved with crime I couldn't vote for them.

It is well known that SinnFeins finances have been among the most audited in the State.Sinn Fein depends on a lot of voluntary work from supporters and all its elected representatives salaries go in to the party and they in turn receive a allowance or much reduced salary.Nobody joins Sinn Fein for narrow self-serving interests because if you did you wouldnt be getting the rewards you get in FF/FG/LB/PDs.
They are an efficently run organisation that is why they have strong resources.There best resources are their people not money.

GabharBrean

Colonel Sanders wrote:

I do believe there are subjected to a lot of bias from the media.

However whenever i speak to college friends from different constituencies they all tell me that SF have masive resources behind their election campaigns. Where does this money come from?

Until i am entirely sure they are no longer linked to organisations involved with crime I couldn't vote for them.

SF's accounts are fully audited North and South. Their funds are not particularly massive, and they certainly don't get big business donations. They do, however, use their money differently. Their elected reps get an industrial wage. The excess above their wage goes into the party coffers.
Also, most of their party machinery (canvassers and so on) is carried out by volunteers.

Ulster9

No harm to repeat me Monaghan man i suppose

oscarBravo

I'm not really going to get into a protracted debate on this; I've made my feelings known repeatedly in the past. I will, however, highlight one point:

Ulster9 wrote:

The issue with the Gerry McCabe murder is a difficult one for republicans to deal with.This is because political parties have played politics with this.I as a republican was disgusted with this killing in Adare and i dont particularly have much sympathy for the men involved.

That's pretty much where we're never going to find a middle ground. Det. Gda. McCabe was cold-bloodedly murdered. I have no sympathy whatsoever for his murderers. I think they should rot in hell, never mind Castlerea.

If a political party finds this a difficult issue that they have to wring their hands over, I have nothing in common with them, and won't be voting for them. It's pretty much that simple for me.

oscarBravo

GabharBrean, as far as I can tell you posted this as a new thread; I don't see any sign of it having been split off from another thread.

Colonel Sanders

by masive resources i meant both cash and people. I have heard stories of candidates with 3 or 4 full time election campaigners. Does all this money come from the means you referred to above?

Ulster9

by masive resources i meant both cash and people. I have heard stories of candidates with 3 or 4 full time election campaigners. Does all this money come from the means you referred to above?

You see hearsay is not a very good means of acquiring factual information.In answer to your question,Sinn Fein raise money by the same means as other political parties.

Ulster9

GabharBrean, as far as I can tell you posted this as a new thread; I don't see any sign of it having been split off from another thread.

I too recall reading the exact same post in another thread.If GabharBrean denies starting this thread then it should be closed.

gandalf

GabharBrean wrote:

As a lifelong SF voter (I belong to no political party), I think the petty carping by non-SF'ers is just humorous. As Repulicans we were told to by the southern ruling elite to accept British rule. Forget the injustices; forget the repression; forget the isolation.

Now please forgive me but when where and who told anyone to accept British Rule. Technically if you're a republican living in Belfast collecting the dole from Her magesties social service it could be said you are accepting British Rule :rolleyes:

If we wanted to change things, we had to organise politically and vote for change. So we did. And we learned to do it well. Now the ruling eco-political elite in the south want no part with us. Why? What are they afraid of?

We, hang on I thought you weren't a member of Sinn Fein and therefore can't really speak for them.

I'll tell you why the majority in the South do not like or maybe more accurately trust Sinn Fein. You were linked at the hip with an organisation that murdered, robbed and tortured. Given that voting patterns in this country are still effected by a civil war that happened in the 1920's did you honestly expect that when Grizzly Adams said the war was over we'd all go "Ahhhh isn't that nice those Chuckies are actually a nice bunch of lads afterall".

The "Irish" media continually spin news stories and selective history snippets to dampen the growth of SF. So what. We who have come from marginalisation to equity know only too well how propoganda is used to narrow political ends. Our British peace keepers have been doing it for decades.

What selective snippets please provide us with examples of these. From what I can see the Irish media have played a big part in progressing the situation in Northern Ireland to one close to normality.

I suppose what you could do is start your own media outlet to divulge the truth to the people. Oh wait they did and it closed down, guess not alot of people shared their views eh.

Hopefully, we have broken the cozy political mold in the North (as indeed have the DUP). Are the Southern elite afraid of this process? Will SF stay the course and continue to shaken up the cozy elites? Hopefully, they will.

Well you never know, but they will have to prove over the years they are no longer involved in criminality, they will have to condemn acts like Adare and other murders.

oscarBravo

Ulster9 wrote:

I too recall reading the exact same post in another thread.If GabharBrean denies starting this thread then it should be closed.

Leave the moderating to the moderators, thanks.

gandalf

No point closing the thread down as it is generating a debate. I can change the title GabharBrean if you pm me what you would prefer. I didn't split the post from another thread either?

Ulster9

You were linked at the hip with an organisation that murdered, robbed and tortured.

What did the old IRA do play with water guns?Where do you think the PIRA got their inspiration from?Yeah your take on the whole thing is that the norths problem was just a huge crime wave, nothing to do with Britains misrule, the Souths inaction??

gandalf

"Balaclava 1" Oh god I feel oppressed what can I do.

"Balaclava 2" I know lets go out and do something to end this oppression

Hails Taxi

Bang Bang Bang....Taxi driver with brains all over dashboard

"Balaclava 1" That showed them !!!

Please place either Loyalist or Republican in front of Balaclava's

zepp

Ulster9 wrote:

What did the old IRA do play with water guns?Where do you think the PIRA got their inspiration from?Yeah your take on the whole thing is that the norths problem was just a huge crime wave, nothing to do with Britains misrule, the Souths inaction??

Now many civilians did the Old IRA target. How many bombs did they place in shopping centres and pubs. You can't simply walk away from it. The opperation of the stormont and dail are totally different systems. There is nothing wrong with saying the DUP should go into power with them and FF to not to. We majoritive democracy the north has cross parlilmentary rule.

As for Sinn Fein always playing the martry. The media has been very very gentle with Sinn Fein. Yet Sinn Fein complain they want to be treated as a equal party and yet when people treat them as such they play the poor me card. If any other party called a terrorist organisation the army of Ireland the papers would slate them. But as it is Sinn Fein they say nothing.

mike65

Which Sinn Fien MLA was it that said she'd not tell the PSNI information about 'dissident' guns? Michelle Gildernew was it?

Mike.

Schuhart

I can’t understand why anybody feels a need to vote for SF. For the sake of argument, leave aside where their money comes from or how so many of their candidates work for An Phoblacht, as if the in-house journal really needed so many ‘journalists’ or any of what we might broadly refer to as the Mafia ‘cut one and they all bleed’ side of the organisation. Lets consciously suspend our disbelief for a moment (which is all any SF voter can be doing – consciously deciding to ignore what their common sense tells them.)

What’s left, even without those powerful SF negatives? Their political programme amounts to “So come with me we'll go and see the Big Rock Candy Mountains”. Why vote for someone that you know is taking you for a ride?

Incidently, the full SF manifesto is available here.

Ulster9

Which Sinn Fien MLA was it that said she'd not tell the PSNI information about 'dissident' guns? Michelle Gildernew was it?

Mike.

Ah DUP person in Waterford.

oscarBravo

Ulster9, any chance you could avoid personalising the debate? You've narrowly escaped one ban already.

Ulster9

Now many civilians did the Old IRA target. How many bombs did they place in shopping centres and pubs. You can't simply walk away from it. The opperation of the stormont and dail are totally different systems. There is nothing wrong with saying the DUP should go into power with them and FF to not to. We majoritive democracy the north has cross parlilmentary rule.

The old IRA killed plenty civilians alright, RIC, Black and Tans,civil servants and protestants in west cork.War is hell, dont think it was all clean and civil.The naivety on here.

brianthebard

http://www.sinnfein.ie/history

Personally as long as they have a page like this on their website I won't consider voting for them. They are marketing themselves as a party based around the conflict (clear to see in the very wording of the title) and they are presenting wild inaccuracies in the article.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

No point closing the thread down as it is generating a debate. I can change the title GabharBrean if you pm me what you would prefer. I didn't split the post from another thread either?

Oh that would have been me in a cut and run drive by mod shooting down of two off topic posts in another thread.
I hope no one was hurt in this incident.
I do of course apologise to any innocent victims and indeed to all the innocent victims of my moderating.

I took the title by the way from what was said in the first post as it seemed to accurately reflect what the post contained.

whippet

Ulster9 wrote:

The old IRA killed plenty civilians alright, RIC, Black and Tans,civil servants and protestants in west cork.War is hell, dont think it was all clean and civil.The naivety on here.

War ... such an excuse for murderer's to stand behind since the 70's ... warrington .. perfectly legit tactical target I suppose, Omagh likewise, pubs etc ... don't try to justify killing men, women and children out shopping or having a drink. I'd love to know the % of IRA targets through out the troubles were military ... isn't that what war is about .. military against military.

please remind me when the cease fire was called by the IRA? and then collate this with the date that Gerry McCabe was shot, the National Irish Bank was robbed .... it does not add up.

Up until recently (i can't seem to find it now) Sinn Fein had t-shirts for sale on its website with 'Crossmaglen - Snipers at work' and the like. Sucm supporting scum.

800 years and all that ... 800 years ago there wasn't even a united ireland .. it was opposing tribes knocking the sh1te out of each other stealing cows and livestock!!


To be honest, anyone with a rational brain sees through the propaganda.

grumpytrousers

Ulster9 wrote:

The issue with the Gerry McCabe murder is a difficult one for republicans to deal with.This is because political parties have played politics with this.I as a republican was disgusted with this killing in Adare and i dont particularly have much sympathy for the men involved.Its a very emotive issue but the harsh reality is that as a result many prisoners were released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and the supreme court recognises that they are qualifying prisoners but only the Dept. of Justice can release them.
The IRA often robbed banks to fund the continuing struggle in the North but they were forbidden from engaging in armed action with Southern forces so the incident in Adare was disgracefull and tragic.

But see this is where it's hard to have that level of trust...However unpalatable it may be, the fact of the matter is that if we want peace, we have to release prisoners that, to put it mildly, offended our sensitivities. And most of us accept that. Like the widows of murdered RUC constables, they - grudgingly - accept that nobody has a monopoly on grief and move on.

The major problem with the McCabe murder was that there was a CeaseFire. the IRA were to have stood down. there were to be no activities related to the furthering of the objectives of Oglaigh na hEireann by violent means going on. And what did the thuggish cowardly b*stards down in Adare go and do? that's right - they wanted money for booze and fags or whatever, and robbed a bank, murdering in cold blood two upstanding Gardai.

AND THEN had the f*cking nerve to try and hide behind the Good Friday Agreement. Look - whatever the line about 'I was fighting for old Ireland when I blew up a fish shop on the Shankill Road', at least (and i use that in the loosest possible sense) people on the Shankhill knew that there was a campaign of terror on, and that Christ alone knew where the 'Ra were going to hit next.

Adare? Those poor divils didn't stand a chance. And THAT'S why Adare will continually be a thorn in the side of any party that fails to grow the cock and balls necessary to stand up and say 'it was wrong'...

Ulster9

Ulster9 wrote:

What did the old IRA do play with water guns?Where do you think the PIRA got their inspiration from?

Oh you take your inspiration from the early 1900's do you?

Lets not be selective then,we'll ask your GF not to vote untill she is 30.We'll ostracise her if she is seen to be cavorting with you outside of marriage and we'll make sure she doesn't work if she gets married.

Thats just for a start.

My point as always is you cannot cherry pick what you like from nearly a 100 yrs ago or any distant completely different period of society in history and use it to justify what you do today.

If SF went to the electorate with that attitude and their policy was ,it was ok then so it's ok now,the vote they have now grasped together by election workers in deprived areas would collapse when faced with the implications.

kmick

Keeping aside all the historical aspects of the war in Northern Ireland which I am neither learned enough nor interested enough to know about; I would not vote for the Sinn Fein becuase all the candidates I know I dislike

Aengus Ó Snodaigh - Comes across as very dumb. Saw him talking in the dail one day and he struggled to string a coherent sentence together.
Mary Lou McDonald - The Sinn Fein Equivalent of Michael McDowell all snarl and fake smile. Would not vote for McDowell either.

Gerry Adams - I know he is not standing but I find him hard to take. He never strikes me as earnest or believable.

I have to like the people I am voting for. Call me shallow.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

When I saw this thread title I knew before reading it that there was going to be a lot of trenchant shouting across the divide at the other side. I haven't been dissapointed.

In terms of Media bias - anyone who reads the Sunday Independant and thinks "they are fair and objective on the subject of Sinn Feinn and Republicanism" isn't particularly clever and / or honest with themselves.

I am resident in Sean Crowe's constituency and will be giving him a first preference in the upcoming elections. My second and third preferences will go Green and the workers party. I will not be putting a preference down for any of the traditional parties.

Why? On the basis of the current Sinn Feinn manifesto, you couldn't have them in Government. That is to say - their economic arguments are unrealistic and unworkable. However, their driving message of inequality and disatisfaction with the current realities of the celtic Tiger are appealing. Particularly in the area within which I live. I feel the debate between big three is stagnant and unhelpful - and I feel that the differences in how they would run the country are much more minimal than they make out. Sinn Feinn fill a void that exists in the current political debate in this country. I think that they pick up many general protest votes, and they better vocalise and are more in tune with the concerns of the lower income bracket than any of the other parties. As such, I can vote for Sinn Feinn because I want them involved in Irish politics and the issue of them taking a dominant lead in the economic policy of the next government is not realistically at stake in this election.

So they will get my vote.

On the issue of the North, I would be in favour of a 32 county Republic. I abhor all aspects of the paramilitary campaign. But the news over the past year is good. Paramilitary activity is at its lowest levels since the troubles began. Progress is clearly being made, and with every year that passes it becomes less likely that the IRA can ever resume their campaign. The candidates and members of the Southern wing of Sinn Feinn are not IRA men. The link between the two organisations concerns the older and senior wings of the party. But I would point out that if people were to always bury their heads in the sand and choose to never accept that leaders can change and ultimately put violence behind them - then we are essentially paying lip service to the idea that terrorist campaigns can ever be brought to an end: that violent conflicts can ever be fully resolved. Such digging in of the heels effectively ridicules the democratic process.

Now you can break my post down into little quotes and try and point out every little flaw and inaccuracy. But the idea of voting for Finna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour or the PDs just makes me shudder.

oscarBravo

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

On the basis of the current Sinn Feinn manifesto, you couldn't have them in Government. That is to say - their economic arguments are unrealistic and unworkable.

...and yet, you're going to vote for them. What's wrong with this picture?

LuckyLloyd

oscarBravo wrote:

...and yet, you're going to vote for them. What's wrong with this picture?

My vote will essentially be a protest vote. I am comfortable with that idea and understand that it is a product of a general malaise for current Irish politics. And they won't get into government.

gandalf

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

My vote will essentially be a protest vote. I am comfortable with that idea and understand that it is a product of a general malaise for current Irish politics. And they won't get into government.

There are better options if you want to protest vote. There is a high chance that Sinn Fein could hold the balance of power in the next dail and lets be honest if hopping into bed with them is the only way Bertie Ahern gets to be Taoiseach again he'll do it.

Now thats a nightmare scenario in my eyes.

oscarBravo

Fair enough - I think the idea of voting for a party you don't want in government is absurd, but that's just my opinion.

In the unlikely and scary event of them ending up in government - are you willing to accept your share of the blame?

Ulster9

War ... such an excuse for murderer's to stand behind since the 70's ... warrington .. perfectly legit tactical target I suppose, Omagh likewise, pubs etc ... don't try to justify killing men, women and children out shopping or having a drink. I'd love to know the % of IRA targets through out the troubles were military ... isn't that what war is about .. military against military.

please remind me when the cease fire was called by the IRA? and then collate this with the date that Gerry McCabe was shot, the National Irish Bank was robbed .... it does not add up.

Up until recently (i can't seem to find it now) Sinn Fein had t-shirts for sale on its website with 'Crossmaglen - Snipers at work' and the like. Sucm supporting scum.

800 years and all that ... 800 years ago there wasn't even a united ireland .. it was opposing tribes knocking the sh1te out of each other stealing cows and livestock!!

Just for the record the IRA was not on ceasefire at the time Gerry McCabe was shot in June 1996.IRA ceasefire broke down between Feb 1996 and August 1997.Regardless it was wrong and defenceless.
Nobody has ever proved that the IRA robbed the Northern Bank and Martin McGuinness is on record as saying that he regarded those involved as criminals who didnt give a damn about the peace process.
The IRA killed 1,821 people throughout the conflict of these 1013 were members of the security forces.621 were civilian.
Loyalists killed 1021 many assisted with collusion from RUC and 368 killed by security forces directly.
As much as people would like to ignore, the IRA was the only ones doing the killing.If people are gonna make claims here they should know the facts.

brianthebard

I don't think anyone has given loyalists paramilitarys a pardon, but we don't have to face the possiblity of their political wing being in government. Its not part of the topic and I don't think it will add to the debate to further that point.

LuckyLloyd

oscarBravo wrote:

Fair enough - I think the idea of voting for a party you don't want in government is absurd, but that's just my opinion.

In the unlikely and scary event of them ending up in government - are you willing to accept your share of the blame?

IF, and it is a big if, they got into government I think everyone is wise enough to understand that they would hardly push for a full or even partial application of their stated economic positions.

In any case, Sinn Feinn getting that significant a position would arguably be the best thing that happened Irish politics in a long, long time. It could only serve to shake things up - could only serve for people to ask the question: "how did it come to this?". If it convinved people to actually sit up and take notice of what is going on in this country and make an informed vote the next time round it would be a good thing.

However, the reality (and you know this) is that the parties will do a deal that excludes Sinn Feinn. And they will stretch themselves to do it.


My problem is with the fact that we have a government that has rode the wave of a property upsurge and the good economic tidings delivered by the IDA - without taking any proactive action to secure Ireland's current good position with any long - term certainty. I amn't hearing anything from the major opposition parties that would lead me to believe that they will tackle the festering problems in any meaningful way either. So I won't be voting for the status quo - and a blind walk down the road to economic downturn.

gandalf

Ulster9 you're typical of Sinn Fein supporters that have graced this board in the past. When you get into a corner you retreat to the past and quote atrocities and deaths. Well as you like your stats heres a good one for you.

Did the IRA kill more Loyalist Paramilitaries than Republican ones?

Time Magazine

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

...sit up and take notice of what is going on in this country and make an informed vote the next time round it would be a good thing.

The PDs currently have 8 seats and are in government. The Greens and Sinn Féin both expect to have about twelve in three months' times. Until you stop supporting a ludicrous party that face that will have as many seats as the Greens or the PDs but that you don't want in government, I pass on your views on what an informed vote is thanks.

whippet

Ulster9 wrote:

Just for the record the IRA was not on ceasefire at the time Gerry McCabe was shot in June 1996.IRA ceasefire broke down between Feb 1996 and August 1997.Regardless it was wrong and defenceless.
Nobody has ever proved that the IRA robbed the Northern Bank and Martin McGuinness is on record as saying that he regarded those involved as criminals who didnt give a damn about the peace process.
The IRA killed 1,821 people throughout the conflict of these 1013 were members of the security forces.621 were civilian.
Loyalists killed 1021 many assisted with collusion from RUC and 368 killed by security forces directly.
As much as people would like to ignore, the IRA was the only ones doing the killing.If people are gonna make claims here they should know the facts.

oh ... a break down !! .... like that show friends .. we were on a break !! nonsense!!

I know all about how many were butchered and murdered up north, I am married to a belfast girl ... I just know that I won't have anyone from a loyalist paramilitary background knocking on my door looking for a vote ... and what ever way you try to spin it .. the shinners are arm in arm with the IRA and there support for the release of the scum who murdered Gerry McCabe and the silence (until almost forced to speak) on the pub slaughter case puts them in an indefensable position.

My views I know are those of a vast majority of the irish electorate.

As for proving guilt for the bank robbery ... the dogs on the street know it ... money in Daz boxes etc ... and I have no doubt that McGuiness will be on the record denying it .... the majority of prisoners in mountyjoy told the courts they didn't do it !!!

LuckyLloyd

Ibid wrote:

The PDs currently have 8 seats and are in government. The Greens and Sinn Féin both expect to have about twelve in three months' times. Until you stop supporting a ludicrous party that face that will have as many seats as the Greens or the PDs but that you don't want in government, I pass on your views on what an informed vote is thanks.

Well you can pass on my views of an informed vote. Let me ask you this though:

- How many Fina Gael and Labour votes have been subconciously pre - decided in the minds of people who picked up on the kerfuffle, hot wind and accusations that have been thrown around about Bertie Ahern's personal finances and the possibillity of corruption? "People" being those who won't notice much else up to the election.

- How many votes up and down the country will be cast on the redundant reasoning that "I like xxx - always seemed like a decent fella to me"?


You sir are failing to understand my outlook. I find all of the mooted coalition combinations to be unpalatable. I feel that the main points upon which the key parties will concentrate debate upon leading up to the next election on are not the key issues. I don't have a particular preference for which combination happens to broker a deal after scraping the sufficient amount of votes to negotiate prominantly.

I particularly dislike McDowell and the PDs - but I apprecaiate the honesty and open nature in which he presents his opinions. It is easy to know where you stand with him. I think the Green message is now more vital than it ever was - but I don't believe that the likes of Trever Sargeant has the neccesary credentials and competence to run a government.

I believe that Finna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour will all get in and change little with their minds fixed on simply doing enough to secure re - election in 2012.

So I will vote for the party that is most active on the ground in my constituency. I will cast a vote for the one Irish party commited to the cause of a 32 county Republic. And I will vote for the one party that scares people into tuning in when they get votes.

brianthebard

The one party committed to a 32 county republic? You are going to vote for FF?

LuckyLloyd

brianthebard wrote:

The one party committed to a 32 county republic? You are going to vote for FF?

My post should probably read "committed to a 32 county Republic in a real and meaningful fashion unlike other political parties who pay mere lip service to the idea on rare occassions".

But you are clearly sharp and on the ball. So good for you.