Guns in America

davyjose

I know there's another thread on this but this is slightly OT from that - its less about that incident and more about general Gun culture in America.
My Fiance is American and TBH having grown up in America she's seen guns - her ex (they have a daughter from their marriage, whom i adore FTR) was an ex-marine, with 2 guns in the house, a true believer in the NRA - but she is one of many who hates guns. And wants them banned - why is this happening? How is America so divided? And so able to withstand pressure from the rest of the world???

timmywex

most people want them and its in their constitution so........its not going to be un done in a referendum(or their equivilant)

Thomas_S_Hunterson

They don't know what they want. There's too many people in the US to ever get a concensus on the subject so opinions will always remain divided.

I do find it hilarious though when americans defent their right to have guns, saying they're for self defence,when they themselves own 12+ pistols under their bed!;)

mike65

most people want them and its in their constitution so........its not going to be un done in a referendum(or their equivilant)

Exactly, and its not up to the rest of us to moan either, the USA is a functioning democracy and of the oldest in the world. Its thier call.

Mike.

Snickers Man

davyjose wrote:

why is this happening? How is America so divided? And so able to withstand pressure from the rest of the world???

We're all pretty much divided on certain topics. Just not this one. Its gun laws are one of the few manifestations of true American identity. It's the only place in the world, or at least the democratic world, with such liberal gun laws and such a strident pro-gun lobby.

Which if you think about it, is pretty unique. America is probably the most mimicked country in the world. People the world over are into its culture-- rock and jazz music, its cinema and TV shows, its dress sense--well mostly.

It's basic democracy and bill of rights is much admired and held up as a paragon of freedom by peoples around the world.

Its business methods are widely copied. Its companies are the leading players in many global industries.

It has spread English around the world far more effectively than the British Empire.

About the only things it hasn't influenced the rest of the world to adopt are its sport (basketball excepted) and its gun laws.

And they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

exCrumlinBoyo

I live in Florida and being an expat from Ireland, I don’t understand the need for guns. The main reason American’s want to have guns is for hunting purposes. Now that’s all well and good, not for the defenseless animal off course, that’s another story for another day, to go hunting with an AK 47 assault rifle. To me that what the problem is!

You can go and buy military weapons for jayis sakes. Huge guns that would blow up a small country! Automatic, Semi Automatic… theses guns are not for hunting, they are deadly assault military weapons. Simple as.

I can go not 5 mins where I live or work and buy an Arsenal which again could take out a small country.

My main point is these people like to hunt, I don’t agree killing a defenseless animal from behind a tree with a sniper rifle but I do disagree with being able to buy fully automatic, magazine loaded machine guns. Hunting I don’t think so.

Guns are always going to be a part of life over here, that’s a fact. You are never going to get rid of them. They should limit the purchase of guns to hunting rifles not AK -47’s and the like.

My wife’s father recently handed to my wife for safe keeping 3 guns. When I say guns, I mean a .44 Magnum. A dirty harry gun, this thing is ridiculous. A double barrel shot gun and another gun along with 3 pillow cases of ammo. I hate the fact that is in my house, but its part of life over here. They just need to restrict the type of weapons and how easy assessable the ammo is for these guns.

Me a total ban should be imposed.

themole

Snickers Man wrote:

It has spread English around the world far more effectively than the British Empire.

Debatable, all of the major English speaking countries are former British colonies, the USA included

davyjose

mike65 wrote:

the USA is a functioning democracy and of the oldest in the world .

And? Their 'democracy' (and i use quotations for a reason - its questionable) is based on a gun culture. But BECAUSE its a democracy, does that entitle them to weapons which can, in the case of columbine where 12 teenagers died, or Virginia where 32 people died, or the 10 school shootings?
There was a recent thread whereby someguy mentioned glassing, and another mentioning junkies!, and i'm currently in the process of bringing my fiance and her daughter (both American) over to live here.
In answer to the above quote - we are widely regarded, along with Sweden and other (almost) excessively liberal countries, countries in the world, but, ...... are my little honey's better off here, or there?

magick

its easy to call for a total ban on guns in Ireland , but u tend to create a sh*t storm in the US, or on US fourms such as offtopic.com. People think that by giving up guns the "bad guys" then will have them and u will be completely defenceless.

Personally though its not about banning them, its the gun lobby the NRA has to much power, before even the though of a total ban the NRA would have to be delt with, and this being such a hot topic and with the Presidential candidates making their speeches they will want to stay away from this issue. Looks like a ban on guns wont happen for a verry long time.

davyjose

Snickers Man wrote:

We're all pretty much divided on certain topics. Just not this one. Its gun laws are one of the few manifestations of true American identity. It's the only place in the world, or at least the democratic world, with such liberal gun laws and such a strident pro-gun lobby.

Which if you think about it, is pretty unique. America is probably the most mimicked country in the world. People the world over are into its culture-- rock and jazz music, its cinema and TV shows, its dress sense--well mostly.

It's basic democracy and bill of rights is much admired and held up as a paragon of freedom by peoples around the world.

Its business methods are widely copied. Its companies are the leading players in many global industries.

It has spread English around the world far more effectively than the British Empire.

About the only things it hasn't influenced the rest of the world to adopt are its sport (basketball excepted) and its gun laws.

And they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I only 1% disagree - I could say the Beatles have done more for the history of Popular music than any American band has, but that's to miss the point - Britain had a massive influencer on a developing America - why do you think the 'Grapes of Wrath' was written in English? But I see what you're saying. Last time I was over and my gf was deciding which Pizza to order, and I stepped in and said 'Why don't i just 'cook' some dinner???'
It IS a strange place!

davyjose

magick wrote:

Looks like a ban on guns wont happen for a verry long time.

Will never - the right to bear arms is a constitutional right. But that's it, how badly does the country need it?
Is it helping? I think not!

cousin_borat

davyjose wrote:

And? Their 'democracy' (and i use quotations for a reason - its questionable) is based on a gun culture.

Playing loose with terms like democracy is a dangerous business. That's ridiculous saying their democracy is based on gun culture. It is part of their constitution. The 2nd amendment is also subject to gross mis-interpretation. Most people including Fox news claim its for the right to defend oneself. Citing Hurricane Katrina as an example where people defended themselves against the looters with firearms.

However the 2nd amendment is to protect you from the government if it becomes tyrannical.

But BECAUSE its a democracy, does that entitle them to weapons which can, in the case of columbine where 12 teenagers died, or Virginia where 32 people died, or the 10 school shootings?

What about Switzerland where every male keeps the assault rifle issued to them during mandatory militia training. Is that a democracy?

Although I would'nt want to own a gun realistically speaking in a country with 250 million guns, you're not going to get rid of them. Therefore I'd prefer more good people to be able to get guns and make it harder for bad people to have them. Pretty simple.

Snickers Man

themole wrote:

Debatable, all of the major English speaking countries are former British colonies, the USA included

I meant as a lingua franca, a second language. For many people, English is the most advantageous second language to have because of the American dominance of international business.

Sam Vimes

cousin_borat wrote:

What about Switzerland where every male keeps the assault rifle issued to them during mandatory militia training. Is that a democracy?

its funny because thats how the second amendment was intended. it reads:

second amendment wrote:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

basically people were meant to have guns only in the context of a militia to protect the state. it was never intended to allow people to have a bazuka under their pillow

Snickers Man

mike65 wrote:

its not up to the rest of us to moan either, the USA is a functioning democracy and of the oldest in the world. Its thier call.

Mike.

I do so find it surprising agreeing with anything Mike65 says but in this case I absolutely agree. But let me ask you: would you favour the introduction of gun laws similar to those in the US to this country? Or even to Britain?

That, I think, is what most concerns people here. Do we want the sort of gun regime they have in the states in our own country?

Lirange

Notice not too much focus on the "Well regulated" part either.

"Guns in America" ... isn't that a Kim Wilde song?

Jesus Wept

timmywex wrote:

most people want them and its in their constitution so........its not going to be un done in a referendum(or their equivilant)

To my knowledge, the Constitution states that they can pick up arms in order to retaliate if the government is oppressing them (perhaps it's time they they did retaliate).

This has been translated into: any yokel can get his hands on guns with ease and they easily fall into the hands of kids/teens/nutballs.

mike65

Snickers Man wrote:

I do so find it surprising agreeing with anything Mike65 says but in this case I absolutely agree.

Just make sure it does'nt happen again!

Snickers Man wrote:

But let me ask you: would you favour the introduction of gun laws similar to those in the US to this country? Or even to Britain?

That, I think, is what most concerns people here. Do we want the sort of gun regime they have in the states in our own country?

I don't know how different in law we and they are, it might not be as great as we think. I don't reckon anyone would belive its a good idea to be able to walk into a gun fair and buy a weapon 'just like that', we have enough of them coming in with drug shipments.

Even here if you really want a gun you can get a gun and judging from the info thats come out today about the University killer he would have got a gun or two by whatever means necessary. It was no 'random' shooting.

Mike.

county

Lirange wrote:

"Guns in America" ... isn't that a Kim Wilde song?

Kids in America

metaoblivia

As an American, I'd like to throw my two cents in. My family owns one gun - an 1877 Winchester rifle that one of my great grand daddies bought when he moved his family out West back in the 1870s. Obviously this gun doesn't see much action anymore. We keep it as a symbol of our family's past.
Other than that, we don't hunt, we don't live in an area that's unsafe - we have no reason to own another firearm.
I do believe in a citizen's right to bear arms - but I also believe in regulation of that right. I support complete background checks, a waiting period, license and registration, and required safety courses before the purchasing of a firearm. I also believe that there are certain types of guns that private citizens have no business owning, such as semi-automatic weapons. T
A responsible citizen should have the right to own a firearm under these circumstances. And there are millions upon millions of responsible gun owners in the United States.
Gun culture in the US is huge, and it's not going to go away. On another thread, someone said that Americans like guns. That's the complete truth - we do! We love guns. Other countries can tell us we're stupid, they can tell us that we should put our guns away, but come on - we're Americans; when do we ever listen to anyone else?
That word culture is very important - guns are a part of our culture. The American public has made it clear that they are willing to live with the consequences of this gun fascination. Following the Columbine shootings in 1999, Democrats came out strongly for increased gun control - and they didn't fare so well in the next round of elections. Most Democrats now aren't talking a whole lot about revising gun control laws. The fact is, the majority of Americans don't want increased regulation of guns. Support for that has been waning since the 90's.
At the end of the day, we lie in the bed we make.

Manic Moran

The best statement I've seen on another forum is that non-Americans simply cannot understand the American viewpoint on firearms laws, much like Americans cannot understand why Europeans today tend to consider their gun laws ridiculous. I say 'cannot' as in 'are culturally incapable of understanding', even if the arguments are put forward to them.

If I may make the comparison: When I emigrated to the US back in 2000, I made my first firearm purchase with no small amount of trepidation. I was already somewhat familiar with them, I was active in the UCD rifle club, so shot air rifle and shotgun, and had been in the FCA, thus military-calibre weapons were not foreign to me either, so perhaps I had a bit of a headstart over most Irish people. The concept of being able to take home my very own personal firearm, though, was... well... strange. I won't say it made me nervous, it was just an odd concept.
As time went on, I began to realise that no, there was nothing inherently dangerous about the piece of metal that was stored in my closet, I don't need to be nervous about it as it's not going to go and hurt me of its own volition, and that this owning firearms business might have something to say for itself. It's fun, and practical. This process took several months' of familiarisation with the concept from others, going to the range, whatever, and then another few months of ownership. As a result, I can't expect that anyone not familiar with the firearms culture can have a clue about its appeal.

Combine that with the simple fact that there are 200million firearms in circulation in the US, and any 'banning' simply isn't going to work anyway. Canada couldn't track down its 16 million firearms, and gave up. Any attempt at new legislation will have to take into account the fact that (1) Firearms are there to stay, and (2) People want them.

The main reason American’s want to have guns is for hunting purposes

You may want to reconsider that: With 60 million firearms owners (estimated), and only about 2 million hunting permits, what do the other 58 million people have them for? Yes, some forms of hunting (varminting, for example) do not require a permit, but all 58million of them? And how many millions of people only own handguns? They're almost certainly not for hunting.

go hunting with an AK 47 assault rifle

You may want to consider that as well. With a very few exceptions, assault rifles are banned. Indeed, depending on the game, current military calibres are often banned from hunting because they're not powerful enough. You cannot legally hunt deer in any state I'm aware of, for example, with a 5.56mm rifle. Too weak.

I can go not 5 mins where I live or work and buy an Arsenal which again could take out a small country.

Please try to do so legally, and let me know your success. Perhaps you are unaware of the procedures you need to go through before you can purchase one of these military spec weapons. There's a reason they're so rare.

They should limit the purchase of guns to hunting rifles not AK -47’s

What is it about a hunting rifle, like a Remington 308 semi-auto which makes it less dangerous than a civlianised AK?

Me a total ban should be imposed.

And is totally impossible to carry out.

metaoblivia wrote:

Following the Columbine shootings in 1999, Democrats came out strongly for increased gun control - and they didn't fare so well in the next round of elections.

Small detail. It was in the 1996 elections after the passage of that wonderfully daft piece of legislation, the Assault Weapons Ban. Both the Democratic Party and Clinton in his memoirs acknowledge it was the single greatest factor in the transfer of power in Congress from the Democrats to Republican control.

NTM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ah, hah!.. so we can blame the iraq war on the democrats.

Finally!, someone tell bill o reilly

biko

It's apparent that Americans can't handle their guns.

Binomate

biko wrote:

It's apparent that Americans can't handle their guns.

Come on, that's not fair. If there's anything I've learned in life it's that people from all nations, all races, all creeds and all walks of life are generally retarded. That's why you can always depend on people to let you down. With that taken in to account, trust nobody with a gun. So to sum it up, The U.S isn't the only place in the world to be diluted with retards.

PeakOutput

i didnt read the whole thread so if its been sadi i apologise but the guns in america are not the problem.......canada has the same lax gun laws and yet it has a much smaller gun crime rate

now i love america in general but there is something in the american psychi(spelling) that when mixed with guns seems to make them more prone to these kinds of atrocities

Black Swan

cousin_borat wrote:

What about Switzerland where every male keeps the assault rifle issued to them during mandatory militia training. Is that a democracy?

Good point! So perhaps the American culture should be examined rather than if they are armed?

cousin_borat wrote:

I'd prefer more good people to be able to get guns and make it harder for bad people to have them. Pretty simple.

As far as making "it harder for bad people to have them," it's not "pretty simple." Gun control in America is a joke! Sure, the "bad people" have some difficulty purchasing their gun from a gun retailer (with background checking required, although someone with a clean record could buy it for them), but they have no problem whatsoever purchasing just about anything they want from garage sales and swap meets, from Saturday Night Specials to assault rifles to 20mm semi-automatic cannons with armour piercing rounds (anti-tank guns).

I cannot complain too much on this thread, cause I have been into martial arts for some time, and recently taken up sword. But what really troubles me, based upon several years of MA training, is how someone can just go out and buy a gun in America without any training or certification that they will not hurt themselves or some innocent bystander. There also seems to be a proclivity for gun sportsmen in America to drink and hunt, which is really scarey! (Anyone remember their Vice President recently blasting his friend after some claimed he may have had too much to drink?)

Snickers Man

cousin_borat wrote:

What about Switzerland where every male keeps the assault rifle issued to them during mandatory militia training. Is that a democracy?

You can read a bit about it here

Note the picture of the guy in the supermarket nonchalantly buying his baked beans and peanut butter with an automatic rifle slung over his shoulder. Note too the caption which says that carrying ammunition is strictly forbidden.

It seems Swiss law is very different to American law. You can buy a pistol but you have to give a very good reason for it. Ammunition sales are strictly controlled, especially the military supplied ammunition for all those assault rifles that are in people's houses.

You can't just pop into a shop for a pistol and buy shed loads of ammo down at the supermarket like you can in most parts of the US.

Ghost Train

PeakOutput wrote:

i didnt read the whole thread so if its been sadi i apologise but the guns in america are not the problem.......canada has the same lax gun laws and yet it has a much smaller gun crime rate

now i love america in general but there is something in the american psychi(spelling) that when mixed with guns seems to make them more prone to these kinds of atrocities

Aren't hand guns restricted in canada. If a person can't conceal a gun so easily, it might reduce people casually carrying around guns they can use to attack people

These atrocities I think can happen anywhere, but factors like the high level of gun ownership and relatively easy availability of guns makes it more likely for maybe kids or an unstable person, criminal to get access to them.

If the level of gun ownership among the public is high, anybody going out to mug or rob is probably going to need a gun for protection and be more prepared to use it, so your going to have a higher level of gun crime

I've no problem with people buying what they want if that what the law allows, it is very sad that innocent people are shot just because that the level/choice of weapon used against them. And I know people are attacked and killed everywhere but gun crime seems to be worse in america.

Mass killing have lead to some extra restrictions in the past, so maybe after whats happened in virginia tech some things might change to provide for some sort of safer environment.

nzamcdza

I dont think the gun laws are the main problem, even if they were illegal if someone wants to get a gun they will get one somehow illeaglly.

Ghost Train

nzamcdza wrote:

I dont think the gun laws are the main problem, even if they were illegal if someone wants to get a gun they will get one somehow illeaglly.

well gun laws decide what guns get made and sold, who is allowed to legally buy and what ammo is sold, it obviously pretty important in the chain

if the legal sale of guns is more limited, you have less guns and potential murder weapons out there

presumably guns on the illegal market were at some time sold legally and were stolen or somehow transfered into the wrong hands

yes if somebody really wants to do something bad they'll find a way, but it doesn't mean you cant change the rules to make it more difficult for them

i don't think you'll ever get rid of gun crime or solve the problem but with less availability or less convieniant weapons, lower level of ownership gun crime would be reduced

Manic Moran

Snickers Man wrote:

Note the picture of the guy in the supermarket nonchalantly buying his baked beans and peanut butter with an automatic rifle slung over his shoulder. Note too the caption which says that carrying ammunition is strictly forbidden.

It seems Swiss law is very different to American law. You can buy a pistol but you have to give a very good reason for it. Ammunition sales are strictly controlled, especially the military supplied ammunition for all those assault rifles that are in people's houses.

This argument is a non-starter. What people are arguing, I think correctly, is the difference in culture given that the availability of the weapons and ammunition is the same.

Ultimately, if a Swiss chap is going to go on a killing spree, I don't think he's going to be particularly worried by what the magistrate has to say about his unlawfully opening the tin of military ammo which is kept in his house with the rifle. With estimates ranging between 1 million and 3 million firearms in circulation in Switzerland, all accessible to their owners with ammunition, the reason that they don't go amok is because they choose not to do so, not because they can't do so, and they respect the laws. Over 60 million firearm owners in the US did not go on a murder spree on Tuesday. I don't see why Swiss Cho would have had any more difficulty in going on a nice shooting spree than American Cho did, once the conscious decision was made to ignore the various legal restrictions on his actions.

NTM

0ubliette

If i was to ever end up marrying my american missus, and lived in america, first thing id do upon getting citizenship, sign up to the NRA, and buy myself an M-14. God i love that rifle.
When i was last in america, i used a shedload of guns, from an ak47 to an m4, pump shottys, colt 1911, the works. I know id so end up a gun nut if i lived there.

Degsy

#Elites wrote:

Personally i wouldnt mind a handgun kept safely in the house for protection..anything bigger (m4 type things, shotguns) should be a lot more strict.

Jeesus h Christ..i suppose you mean a loaded handgun too?Its because of this sort of idea that handguns are very difficult to license,especially in this country.

Dyr

All i know is quality american TV programmes would be all the poorer if it wasn't for the ready availability of firearms. Jack Bauer running around with a baton? Nonsense.

Willymuncher

davyjose wrote:

I only 1% disagree - I could say the Beatles have done more for the history of Popular music than any American band has, but that's to miss the point - Britain had a massive influencer on a developing America - why do you think the 'Grapes of Wrath' was written in English? But I see what you're saying. Last time I was over and my gf was deciding which Pizza to order, and I stepped in and said 'Why don't i just 'cook' some dinner???'
It IS a strange place!

It seems to me that you don't like the states that much...

I personally love pizza everyday for dinner

biko wrote:

It's apparent that Americans can't handle their guns.

There are millions of people in the country that own firearms and are responsible with them, I don't think its fair to say they can't handle them.

5starpool

While I think it is riciculous to cite a law from a couple of hundred years ago as good reason to be allowed to keep their guns, it would be a futile exercise to even try to ban guns now. Even allowing for the likely widespread opposition to such a law, that horse has well and truly bolted and all the legally held guns back even would not go any way towards getting the guns from the criminals.

I am relieved that there are such strict gun laws here, and despite the high profile shootings over here, the vast majority of that was amongst the criminal world shooting each other, which can only be a good thing.

NutJob

They should keeping giving guns to people with histories of mental illness. In fact it should be mandatory for known depressed suicidal teenagers to have automatic weapons after all its in the constitution.

slipss

#Elites wrote:

Personally i wouldnt mind a handgun kept safely in the house for protection..anything bigger (m4 type things, shotguns) should be a lot more strict.

I couldn't disagree more, if you want to have a firearm to defend your home it would be much better for people to have a rifle than a handgun. The only advantage a handgun has is that its easily concealable (i.e it can be carried around on the streets). I can see no reason whatsoever that handguns should be legal in America either, their argument for keeping guns is that they are for home protection and/or hunting. Well unless your a ninja you are going to have a nearly impossible task to kill a dear with a handgun and a rifle is just as good at defending your home as a pistol, publicly owned handguns are concealable anti-personel weapons, and its ridiculas for anyone to claim they "need" one for any reason.

Degsy

slipss wrote:

I couldn't disagree more, if you want to have a firearm to defend your home it would be much better for people to have a rifle than a handgun. The only advantage a handgun has is that its easily concealable (i.e it can be carried around on the streets). I can see no reason whatsoever that handguns should be legal in America either, their argument for keeping guns is that they are for home protection and/or hunting. Well unless your a ninja you are going to have a nearly impossible task to kill a dear with a handgun and a rifle is just as good at defending your home as a pistol, publicly owned handguns are concealable anti-personel weapons, and its ridiculas for anyone to claim they "need" one for any reason.

In some states you're allowed to carry a weapon for protection..its called a Conceal Carry Permit.
Also people Do use pistols for hunting beleive it or not.

Manic Moran

Degsy wrote:

In some states you're allowed to carry a weapon for protection..its called a Conceal Carry Permit.
Also people Do use pistols for hunting beleive it or not.

46 out of 50. Two don't require a permit (Alaksa, Vermont), and of the other two, Wisconsin has had its bill pass the legislature twice, but the Governor keeps vetoing it, it's only a matter of time, and the last state (Iowa, if I recall) permits unconcealed carry without a permit if you don't mind people giving you funny looks in town.

In fact it should be mandatory for known depressed suicidal teenagers to have automatic weapons after all its in the constitution.

Sarcasm aside, you'll note that the firearms lobby doesn't have any issue with the mental capacity requirement.

first thing id do upon getting citizenship, sign up to the NRA, and buy myself an M-14. God i love that rifle.

Forget the M-14. Buy an FAL. Same category and ammo, but better! (You don't need citizenship, green card will do)

I couldn't disagree more, if you want to have a firearm to defend your home it would be much better for people to have a rifle than a handgun. The only advantage a handgun has is that its easily concealable

Which goes to show what you know about firearms usage. Assuming you're talking about inside your house or apartment, as opposed to guarding your street corner in case of a Katrina-esque disaster, rifles have two very major problems: Length and overpenetration. A house is usually a confined area, with not much room to swing anything about. The other problem, overpenetration, comes from the fact that your typical rifle round will punch through walls and go down the street, or next door, or wherever if you miss. At least a shotgun has the advantages of not needing a precise aim and usually no overpenetration (Depending on the load), but it does also suffer the 'wieldability' problem, and frankly, your house repair bill afterwards is going to be impressive, semi-autos are expensive, (I checked out a Bernelli M3 yesterday, $1500), pump-actions are too slow, and magazine capacity is limited. They are the 'traditional' home defense weapon mainly because they are traditional. A pistol suffers no problem in confined quarters, and with defense loads such as Hydrashok or hollow point they do not tend to overpenetrate, they carry sufficient ammunition without reloading for most conceivable situations, and they are quite sufficiently lethal.

NTM

rogue-entity

Snickers Man wrote:

<snip>
It's basic democracy and bill of rights is much admired and held up as a paragon of freedom by peoples around the world.

Its business methods are widely copied. Its companies are the leading players in many global industries.

It has spread English around the world far more effectively than the British Empire.

About the only things it hasn't influenced the rest of the world to adopt are its sport (basketball excepted) and its gun laws.

And they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

But how many "free countries" actually impliament those same rights, to the same degree of freedom. Ireland doesnt for one. Our freedom of speech right is hobbled by this "public morality" clause, and I am pretty sure libel laws that recently restricted boardsie's rights to mention events by a certain promoter dont exist in the US. Sweden is one country that I admire for its freedom, especially in response to the Pirate Bay incident where public outcry at the illegal action taken by the swedish police eventually resulted in TPB coming back to sweden.

Best example of non-US companies copying US business methods: Vodafone.
Another example of US culture creeping in over here is all the lobbying done to try and legalise software patents.. something that I strongly feel should be illegal, and unrecognised. Legalising them in all member states would result in the lost of our own native businesses and the extention of US dominance in the global market. Something that I also abhor the thought of.

That is debatable of course, but the spread of americanisms, and american spelling is becoming more and more prolific in the english speaking world, and it is actually acceptable to submit an academic report in "american english".

The fact remains, criminals will always be able to get access to guns, making them illegal for civilians to have them, wont stop this. It just means that the criminals are armed, and the civilians are not. Just look at gun crime in Ireland, with armed gangs raiding Securicor vans and criminals offing themselves over money and drugs. The best that America could hope for is to reduce the easy access to powerful weapons for civilians by making it harder for people to get them.. but I dont believe for one second that american gun culture will go away.

purple'n'gold

If American law allows people to buy, and have firearms in their position that’s their business. Nothing at all to do with the rest of the world. And as regards lunatics killing people, the USA is a huge country with a huge diverse population. You are bound to have more nutters per square yard there than in a smaller more homogeneous country.

PeakOutput

purplengold wrote:

If American law allows people to buy, and have firearms in their position that’s their business. Nothing at all to do with the rest of the world. And as regards lunatics killing people, the USA is a huge country with a huge diverse population. You are bound to have more nutters per square yard there than in a smaller more homogeneous country.

in theory it should be the same per square yard but because they are bigger they will have more but like i said there is something in their society that makes them breed alot more psychos for sum reason

cson

My opinons on the matter;

First of all the comparisons between the United States and Switzerland are bordering on stupidity. You are discussing two different mindsets and cultures here that have little in common. (Bar the avalibility of guns).

I think someone mentioned culture here, Europeans and Americans have a different culture and mindset with regard to guns. I think in Europe most people see guns as a necessary evil perhaps, one means to protect and keep countrys safe. (I know there are lots of shooting clubs etc, but this is what I think for the most part what Europeans think). In the United States owning a gun is somewhat a rite of passage and is a form of pastime. Two totally different attitudes towards guns.

Myself, I think that with the constitution firmly enshrined with the right to own guns that to envoke stricter laws or banning, well you might as well be pissing into the wind. Personally I feel safer in a country with strict gun laws as people such as Cho would have severe difficulty in obtaining weapons.

mcsmohil

mike65 wrote:

Exactly, and its not up to the rest of us to moan either, the USA is a functioning democracy and of the oldest in the world. Its thier call.

Mike.

Oldest in the world?????

mcsmohil

purplengold wrote:

If American law allows people to buy, and have firearms in their position that’s their business. Nothing at all to do with the rest of the world. And as regards lunatics killing people, the USA is a huge country with a huge diverse population. You are bound to have more nutters per square yard there than in a smaller more homogeneous country.

Lots of guns = lots of dead people, simple.

biggun

exCrumlinBoyo wrote: »

I live in Florida and being an expat from Ireland, I don’t understand the need for guns. The main reason American’s want to have guns is for hunting purposes. Now that’s all well and good, not for the defenseless animal off course, that’s another story for another day, to go hunting with an AK 47 assault rifle. To me that what the problem is!

You can go and buy military weapons for jayis sakes. Huge guns that would blow up a small country! Automatic, Semi Automatic… theses guns are not for hunting, they are deadly assault military weapons. Simple as.

I can go not 5 mins where I live or work and buy an Arsenal which again could take out a small country.

My main point is these people like to hunt, I don’t agree killing a defenseless animal from behind a tree with a sniper rifle but I do disagree with being able to buy fully automatic, magazine loaded machine guns. Hunting I don’t think so.

Guns are always going to be a part of life over here, that’s a fact. You are never going to get rid of them. They should limit the purchase of guns to hunting rifles not AK -47’s and the like.

My wife’s father recently handed to my wife for safe keeping 3 guns. When I say guns, I mean a .44 Magnum. A dirty harry gun, this thing is ridiculous. A double barrel shot gun and another gun along with 3 pillow cases of ammo. I hate the fact that is in my house, but its part of life over here. They just need to restrict the type of weapons and how easy assessable the ammo is for these guns.

Me a total ban should be imposed.

Its a bloody good thing that people like you dont ever get the chance to implement policy decisions like that anyways. Time and time again people like yourself have been exposed as being completly ignorant of the supposed topic you profess an expertise in in the first place.

1) Have you ever used a firearm ?
2) Have you ever had to use a firearm in defense of your self or a friend or fmaily member ?
3) Have you ever had your home invaded by persons intent on killing you , raping your wife and children and making you watch, then raping and killing your kids.

If in the event of any of the above occurring, how would you think you would be able to defend yourself ?

Oh yes, you would appeal to their sense of reasoning and ask them to leave your home , not killing you or any of your family, or possibly setting fire to the home you worked so hard for to destroy forensic evidence. I travel to the states regularly and have a CCW permit from the state of Utah. I will use that weapon to defend myself at all costs. Have a look at the dregs coming to this country. We have people coming from the likes of eastern europe and Africa where the value placed on human life is virtually ZERO. What are you going to do when they come for you.


My old departed father used to have a great saying;

" IF YOU CANT SAY ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE, SHUT THE **** UP"

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

mcsmohil wrote: »

Oldest in the world?????

what exactly about that statement did you find worthy of 5 question marks?

Little Princess

biggun wrote: »

1) Have you ever used a firearm ?
2) Have you ever had to use a firearm in defense of your self or a friend or fmaily member ?
3) Have you ever had your home invaded by persons intent on killing you , raping your wife and children and making you watch, then raping and killing your kids.

how many people are actually put in that situation at year?

then ask urself how many people are killed by guns per year in situations that are not like the one you described. the number of people killed in situations not like the one you described by guns, probably far out weighs the number of people killed in self defence while breaking and entering a house in order to rape a family and murder kids.


logical conclusion. ban guns to stop the thousands of gun murders a year that outweigh the amount of people killed in self defence a year and let the police deal with the well being of people.


everybody i know from america has made a fortune. theyve always told me that the reason they made a fortune in america is because generally americans are really really backwards and dumb. in my honest opinion, this is probably why they will not change their gun laws. theyre too stuborn to change their constitution because they're hung up in their own american pride. this goes with the argument that americans are dumb. there are obviously some exceptions.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

should we ban cars as well and force americans to use public transport?

Little Princess

Clammy Todgers wrote: »

should we ban cars as well and force americans to use public transport?

this argument is dumb. cars arent designed for killing people. a lot of the guns and ammunition sold in america are designed specifically for killing people.