Rate my play & my thinking!

bops

I haven't posted a HH in ages - tbh i haven't been playing online for the last month or two - i'm finding it very boring and much rather play live. Anyway i was in the mood for a gamble so this is where i ended up:

1/2 nlh heads up

i sat with 80 and villian had 200 - the stacks are now me 180 and he has 240. He has been playing v aggro - raising and reraising me pf with any2 (he likes to show - knob!)

i appear to be playing quite tight/passive - the reason why my stack had grown is coz i have check/called him down all streets on afew occasions to catch him at it. Of course i've bluffed myself, but i've picked my spots better and he's giving me more respect due to my image.

anyway rip this one apart:

I am BB with 7h 4h
He makes his standard raise to 6
I call

Flop 4c 9h Js (12)

I check, he bets 11, I call
(ok i have a pair and he has raised with any2 - i could be infront! i also have a backdoor fd - which i am partial to!)

Turn Ah (34)

I check, he bets 28, I call
(ok now i know i'm behind, i'm nearly sure he has an A - after what has happened previous to this, he wouldn't fire here without one - anyway i've picked up my FD now so reckon i take it all if it hits - a 4 would do also, a 7 i'm not too sure about!)

River 6h (90)

I've hit!! I've [EDIT] 135 behind and he covers, and I check again...

5starpool

If he is any good here he will check behind if he does have an A. I think maybe a weak looking lead for 40 or so on the river might be good, hoping to get reraised, although I don't think there is enough money behind for this to work properly.

If you had missed on the river what were you planning to do? Were you looking to raise at any point? If you think he has Ax then do you think he would call a crai on the turn no matter the kicker? If you think he would fold that holding a decent % of the time then I like that move with your pair + draw hand. If you only called to get lucky then it was a bad move. Did the turn card change your mind or were you planning to call him down with bottom pair only?

shoutman

Bops, its one thing being happy to be heads up in a pot with someone who you think you have a sizable advantage over skillwise, but I dont think there is a person in the world who will say its +EV to call a raise OOP with 74 hearts...

Once you hit the river you have to bet, checking is just stupid IMO, I'd fold evey street before the river but on the river you have to bet.

ianmc38

i wouldnt check the river. rest of the hand is fine. i might cr the turn.

ntlbell

Have you missed all the great threads today bops??

4 bet PF

check raise flop/shove the turn.

10/10 on your thinking, as it's the bops way and you played it very boppy.

you sir are a legend.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

very sorry! i've got 135 behind on the river - i'll edit op

phantom_lord

i might crai on the turn. i'd shove the river anyway.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ste05

Yeah just shove it in, although if you've been a passive calling station with some mad hands he might value bet the river with his A expecting it to be good in which case you could then CRAI. The flush is a back door one so shouldn't scare him too much, my action would very much depend on the flow of the game, but as a default I'd probably push.

EDIT: Didn't see the changed stack sizes, thought it was 90 left with 90 in the Pot, actually now I'd probably make a usual value bet of around 55-60 or CRAI depending on which I thought had a better likelyhood of getting all his chips in the middle based on previous play. i.e. is he more likely to raise me or to think I'm bluff CRAI'ing him...

Captain Tom

i kinda like the check.i doubt he calls a push with Ax but definately v/bets considering he's playing aggressively and you can call down light.he obv. bets with 2 pair/set also and probably fires with air considering your read.any bet he makes pot commits him to a push,especially considering your hand is so well disguised.

if i bet,i kinda like a fake blocking bet vs this opponant.he calls with Ax 100% of the time and might push with air.

Marq

!

DeadParrot

Bet about $60, I dont think he'll call a push

phantom_lord

Captain Tom wrote:

if i bet,i kinda like a fake blocking bet vs this opponant.he calls with Ax 100% of the time and might push with air.

what about a value/blocking/shove inducing bet of 45-60?

eoghan104

Marq wrote:

!

Another insightfull and helpfull post good man. Why not tell him to "move up levels aswell" thats always hilarious.

Bops I think you played it fine until the river where i would lead for 40 or so hoping for a shove.

Gholimoli

If you put him on the A then check on the river is really bad as he would often check behind there if he is at all decent.

The only way im checking that river is if I out him on nothing at all and with the way the action has gone that like never.
I also don’t like the turn call at all if you put him on the A.

I don’t like check raising the turn really that much .maybe if you were deeper.

Any one like a 20 lead on the the turn?

bops

5starpool wrote:

If he is any good here he will check behind if he does have an A.

no he won't - he hopes i've hit the flop and that i think he's just representing as per usual. btw he is a good player, just a bit tilty coz i'm getting the better of him

5starpool wrote:

I think maybe a weak looking lead for 40 or so on the river might be good, hoping to get reraised, although I don't think there is enough money behind for this to work properly.

sorry i have 135 behind - will change your opinion of how i played the river

5starpool wrote:

If you had missed on the river what were you planning to do?

check/folding

5starpool wrote:

Were you looking to raise at any point? If you think he has Ax then do you think he would call a crai on the turn no matter the kicker?

he wasn't dropping the ace imo

5starpool wrote:

If you think he would fold that holding a decent % of the time then I like that move with your pair + draw hand. If you only called to get lucky then it was a bad move.

i called to get lucky - simple as!

5starpool wrote:

Did the turn card change your mind or were you planning to call him down with bottom pair only?

if the turn was a blank, i would have check/folded to his bet

you ask a lot of (good) questions

shoutman wrote:

Bops, its one thing being happy to be heads up in a pot with someone who you think you have a sizable advantage over skillwise, but I dont think there is a person in the world who will say its +EV to call a raise OOP with 74 hearts...

It was a HU game, and I was folding PF a lot! - just felt like making a move - you've got to look at expected EV if I hit

shoutman wrote:

Once you hit the river you have to bet, checking is just stupid IMO, I'd fold evey street before the river but on the river you have to bet.

it sorta looks like i played it completely backwards lol (suits me eh?)

ianmc38 wrote:

i wouldnt check the river. rest of the hand is fine. i might cr the turn.

he will call the c/r on the turn and i'm not in very good shape!!

ntlbell wrote:

4 bet PF

check raise flop/shove the turn.

He is most likely to come over the top PF and on the turn - i could of c/r the flop and got away with it if he has missed

ntlbell wrote:

10/10 on your thinking, as it's the bops way and you played it very boppy.

you sir are a legend.

lol tyvm

Captain Tom wrote:

i kinda like the check.i doubt he calls a push with Ax but definately v/bets considering he's playing aggressively and you can call down light.he obv. bets with 2 pair/set also and probably fires with air considering your read.any bet he makes pot commits him to a push,especially considering your hand is so well disguised.

Exaclty my way of thinking here!

phantom_lord and the rest of ye wrote:

what about a value/blocking/shove inducing bet of 45-60?

yup - the generally excepted correct bet to make! - i just felt that i called, check/called, check/called....bet - alarm bells!!!!!!!
he has raised, bet, and bet - what's he gonna do on the river???

Captain Tom

phantom_lord wrote:

what about a value/blocking/shove inducing bet of 45-60?

yeah 45 looks about right.anymore and villian knows were pot committed.

Hyzepher

If we are discussing the best way to reap chips after dogging someone with a runer-runner flush, then based on his style of play a crai is probably the best move. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had xhxh as well

But to be honest if you are looking for advice to improve your game then I would advice that you rethink the way you play hands - both calling pf raises and chasing outs that may/may not have you infront. Most times you are leaking chips using your current strategy and thats never a good thing. There is nothing wrong playing with any two cards - especially HU, but you need to re-evaluate when constantly asked for chips. Especially if you are looking for miracle cards to get you ahead.

bohsman

Hyzepher wrote:

If we are discussing the best way to reap chips after dogging someone with a runer-runner flush, then based on his style of play a crai is probably the best move. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had xhxh as well

But to be honest if you are looking for advice to improve your game then I would advice that you rethink the way you play hands - both calling pf raises and chasing outs that may/may not have you infront. Most times you are leaking chips using your current strategy and thats never a good thing. There is nothing wrong playing with any two cards - especially HU, but you need to re-evaluate when constantly asked for chips. Especially if you are looking for miracle cards to get you ahead.

Been there done that, bops is too good to fold hands like this, we now must only comment on the river action.

BigCityBanker

Gholimoli wrote:

I also don’t like the turn call at all if you put him on the A.

Gholli can you expand on this please?

If you put him on an A then the turn call is fine so long as you take him to value town on the river if you hit? Calling the turn if you dont put him on an A reduces our implied odds dramatically i.e. with an A in his hand he is more likely to call a bet on the river.

Your line of thinking has me confused.

phantom_lord

the more i think about it the more I like the 40-45 bet, it gets value off the hands he's likely to check behind, which is likely to be most of his range, and he shoves his strong hands like sets/2pair as he wont think u have a flush. There's always the chance he shoves air over your "blocking bet"

remember that hand where i turned a straight, a fd hit on the river, i lead out weak and the guy shoved with a floated underpair? that was sweet

BobSloane

Anyone check / fold the river?

I might immediatly shove all -in on the river as I sometimes have a habit of doing this when I'm bluffing - and it is a backdoor flush after all so its not v obvious that you've made it.

bops

Hyzepher wrote:

If we are discussing the best way to reap chips after dogging someone with a runer-runner flush, then based on his style of play a crai is probably the best move. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had xhxh as well

That is exactly what we are discussing!!
If he has xhxh i get what i truely deserve and happily move on!!

But to be honest if you are looking for advice to improve your game then I would advice that you rethink the way you play hands - both calling pf raises and chasing outs that may/may not have you infront. Most times you are leaking chips using your current strategy and thats never a good thing. There is nothing wrong playing with any two cards - especially HU, but you need to re-evaluate when constantly asked for chips. Especially if you are looking for miracle cards to get you ahead.

lol you obviously don't know me very well! - welcome back to the forum!
i did re-evaluate on every street - i called 28$ on the turn with a 5/1 shot knowing i'd get $$$$$$$$ if i hit! - i was getting the odds no doubt!

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

Gholli can you expand on this please?

If you put him on an A then the turn call is fine so long as you take him to value town on the river if you hit? Calling the turn if you dont put him on an A reduces our implied odds dramatically i.e. with an A in his hand he is more likely to call a bet on the river.

Your line of thinking has me confused.

cause our pair is no longer any goot, we can't bluff him, and we'll miss our fi-lush lots?

Anyone check / fold the river?

no

BobSloane

phantom_lord wrote:

no

You're easily confused lol. I was hardly serious.

Gholimoli

BigCityBanker wrote:

Gholli can you expand on this please?


Your line of thinking has me confused.

we simply dont have odds to call if we put him on the A.
we have possibly 12 or 13 outs and none of them (bar maybe the 3 ramaining 4's) or to the nuts .that gives us something like up to 25% and the bet on the turn is nearly pot sized .
you can argue you have implied odds but you have revers implied odds as well so i dont like the flat call on the turn at all.

BigCityBanker

phantom_lord wrote:

cause our pair is no longer any goot, we can't bluff him, and we'll miss our fi-lush lots?

The complection of the hand has changed completely on the turn, we are now playing for our flush rather than lining up a bluff.

Lissavalley

Fold preflop. If you called turn bet purely for the implied odds, (which I presume you did) then you must get your chips in middle somehow. I prefer nothing too fancy here bar a plain and simple push

bops

BigCityBanker wrote:

The complection of the hand has changed completely on the turn, we are now playing for our flush rather than lining up a bluff.

correct!!

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

we simply dont have odds to call if we put him on the A.
we have possibly 12 or 13 outs and none of them (bar maybe the 3 ramaining 4's) or to the nuts .that gives us something like up to 25% and the bet on the turn is nearly pot sized .
you can argue you have implied odds but you have revers implied odds as well so i dont like the flat call on the turn at all.

bollix!!

i'm taking all his stack if a H hits (i think!!)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

bops wrote:

bollix!!

i'm taking all his stack if a H hits (i think!!)

You must be damn sure of this mans play if that is the case since you check to him on the river.

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

The complection of the hand has changed completely on the turn, we are now playing for our flush rather than lining up a bluff.

of course. but now the chances we had of winning the hand are dramactically reduced. and we haven't the odds to hit a flush. the ace is a bad card.

Marq

bops wrote:

bollix!!
i'm taking all his stack if a H hits (i think!!)

if he's so inclined to give you all of his money when the heart hits why did you check the river giving him a chance to get away from it?
!

bops

phantom_lord wrote:

of course. but now the chances we had of winning the hand are dramactically reduced. and we haven't the odds to hit a flush. the ace is a bad card.

I am 99% certain he will bet the pot again on the river, and be pot committed to call my reraise if he has anything. My (wrong?) way of thinking here is that i am calling 28$ to win 197$ (the 62 in the pot and the other 135 that he will put in on the river) I have 11 outs, the hearts and the two 4s - i'm check calling the river probably if i make my 2 pair.

Really what i'm getting at is the check on the river.

yes i'll call pf with ****e oop when playing heads up - if you don't understand this, you will never be a decent HU player.

yes i will call the flop bet, thinking i may be in front, i will often take this pot off him on the turn, depending on the card, and the play of the villian.

yes, i will call the turn bet here everytime due to the implied odds.

all i'm asking is what is the most profitable on the river??

if i bet 45, he will more than likely call with Ax or 2 pair - i can't see him pushing here.

if i check i'm 99% sure he will bet strong and i'll probably get the lot

just for arguement sake say he has AK (TPTK)

A) say i check the river - he checks - $0 20%
say i check the river - he pushes - $135 80%

C) i push the river and he folds - $0 70%
D) i push the river and he calls - $135 30%

E) i bet 45 and he calls - $45 70%
F) i bet 45 and he pushes - $135 20%
G) i bet 45 and he folds - $0 10%

somebody can do the math but it looks to me that i made the correct choice?? the %'s are how i feel about it - feel free to comment

thanks

BobSloane

Marq wrote:

if he's so inclined to give you all of his money when the heart hits why did you check the river giving him a chance to get away from it?
!

I suppose it all boils down to how well Bops knew his player here. The reason I'd be so inclined to push quickly on the river is that it looks more like a bluff (I think) and is more likely to get called if opponent has an Ace.

The fact that Bops puts him on an Ace is why I dont like the river check. Check out the hand on the last episode of HSP when Ivey checks the full house to Antonious on the river. He's putting Antonious on a bluff and knows betting into him here is the wrong play - although he would have looked like a donk if Antonious had a hand with showdown value and checked behind.

So Bops, is this guy bad enough to value bet a pair of aces here when its only likely for you to fold or put him to the ultimate decision with only 1 pair?

edit: sorry my post is now a bit irrelevant

Hitman Actual

bops wrote:

I am 99% certain he will bet the pot again on the river, and be pot committed to call my reraise if he has anything. My (wrong?) way of thinking here is that i am calling 28$ to win 197$ (the 62 in the pot and the other 135 that he will put in on the river) I have 11 outs, the hearts and the two 4s - i'm check calling the river probably if i make my 2 pair.

Really what i'm getting at is the check on the river.

yes i'll call pf with ****e oop when playing heads up - if you don't understand this, you will never be a decent HU player.

yes i will call the flop bet, thinking i may be in front, i will often take this pot off him on the turn, depending on the card, and the play of the villian.

yes, i will call the turn bet here everytime due to the implied odds.

all i'm asking is what is the most profitable on the river??

if i bet 45, he will more than likely call with Ax or 2 pair - i can't see him pushing here.

if i check i'm 99% sure he will bet strong and i'll probably get the lot

just for arguement sake say he has AK (TPTK)

A) say i check the river - he checks - $0 20%
say i check the river - he pushes - $135 80%

C) i push the river and he folds - $0 70%
D) i push the river and he calls - $135 30%

E) i bet 45 and he calls - $45 70%
F) i bet 45 and he pushes - $135 20%
G) i bet 45 and he folds - $0 10%

somebody can do the math but it looks to me that i made the correct choice?? the %'s are how i feel about it - feel free to comment

thanks

Going by your percentages here, yeah, checking is correct.

But how many €28 calls do you burn up on the turn to get to this point? Your play on the river looks to be loss limitation to me .

Captain Tom

lenny_leonard wrote:

Your play on the river looks to be loss limitation to me .

im not sure if i misunderstand this post but playing pot control with a backdoor flush HU vs an aggressive player is insanely weak.

AS_PokerKing

just do wat jbravado would do

SHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPP IIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!

phantom_lord

I still think betting river >>>>> checking.

Hitman Actual

Captain Tom wrote:

im not sure if i misunderstand this post but playing pot control with a backdoor flush HU vs an aggressive player is insanely weak.

Well, he said he's calling the €28 turn bet as he expects to get paid for €135 on the river when he hits. But he doesn't get 135, he'll get at most €108 on average when he hits (going by his figures). So bops doesn't have the implied odds he needs, all things considered, to call the turn.

And by loss-limitation, I mean that as he thinks checking is the most profitable line on the river, it's just making the hand as a whole less -EV. Value betting or pushing makes this hand a fairly big loss-maker.

I may be wrong in my thinking here, but that's the way it looks to me.

bops

lenny_leonard wrote:

Well, he said he's calling the €28 turn bet as he expects to get paid for €135 on the river when he hits. But he doesn't get 135, he'll get at most €108 on average when he hits (going by his figures). So bops doesn't have the implied odds he needs, all things considered, to call the turn.

And by loss-limitation, I mean that as he thinks checking is the most profitable line on the river, it's just making the hand as a whole less -EV. Value betting or pushing makes this hand a fairly big loss-maker.

I may be wrong in my thinking here, but that's the way it looks to me.

actually i've 11 outs twice (the H's and the two 4's - i don't fancy the 2 pair much)

so i will win about 1 in 4?

62 in the pot (which you've forgotten about i think)+ 80% of 135 (108) = return of 170$ = 6/1 no????

5starpool

If you don't fancy 2 pair much then you must think he has two pair possibly, so at least one of your hearts will be no good.

bops

BobSloane wrote:

The fact that Bops puts him on an Ace is why I dont like the river check. Check out the hand on the last episode of HSP when Ivey checks the full house to Antonious on the river. He's putting Antonious on a bluff and knows betting into him here is the wrong play - although he would have looked like a donk if Antonious had a hand with showdown value and checked behind.

bops and ivey in same paragraph! lol

anyways - this guy (and patrick a) don't do showdown value - they generally bet the mofo!!!!

bops

5starpool wrote:

If you don't fancy 2 pair much then you must think he has two pair possibly, so at least one of your hearts will be no good.

jeeeeeeees - yep possibly - he could have a set or aces and - but remember i've 10 seconds to act!!

ok ive 10 outs - still have odds

bet the river??

Hitman Actual

bops wrote:

actually i've 11 outs twice (the H's and the two 4's - i don't fancy the 2 pair much)

so i will win about 1 in 4?

62 in the pot (which you've forgotten about i think)+ 80% of 135 (108) = return of 170$ = 6/1 no????

I didn't see that the main pot had gotten so big, I thought it wasn't going to make up the difference. And maybe I'm under-estimating how many out's you actually have, as I don't consider that they will always be live, and sometimes he'll be stacking you when you hit. But it does look much better the way you put it.

Gholimoli

bops wrote:

actually i've 11 outs twice (the H's and the two 4's - i don't fancy the 2 pair much)

so i will win about 1 in 4?

is this a 6 card community card holdem you are playing with two cards after the turn and not one?
cuz unless it is then you have 11 outs once and not twice which makes the odds a bit different (but then again this is for us mere mortals who waste time with crap like pot odds etc and the fact that none of the outs are to the nuts).

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

is this a 6 card community card holdem you are playing with two cards after the turn and not one?
cuz unless it is then you have 11 outs once and not twice which makes the odds a bit different (but then again this is for us mere mortals who waste time with crap like pot odds etc and the fact that none of the outs are to the nuts).

gholi's math lesson #76:

say 11 live outs with one card to come

6 dead cards - two in my fuking hand and 4 on the table

here's where it gets tricky: 52 -6 = 46

11 chances in 46

11/46

24%

i will win one time in every 4


you truely are a knob jockey - you really should think about what you say before posting your ignorance in such a "i am right" attitude


...and i even put a ? after my origional statement

now piss off

bops

lenny_leonard wrote:

I didn't see that the main pot had gotten so big, I thought it wasn't going to make up the difference. And maybe I'm under-estimating how many out's you actually have, as I don't consider that they will always be live, and sometimes he'll be stacking you when you hit. But it does look much better the way you put it.

i don't mind being stacked if he beats my trips/flush - i'll take that chance here all say long

ps apologies for the above outburst - he just gets my back up - i wouldn't mind if he knew what he was talking about

Goodluck2me

i think you should check it on the river too, as he has seen you call him down light and might value bet a little lighter i.e. Ax. then push... i dont think we get it all in otherwise.