Final Table MTT hand

Hectorjelly

€100 Double Chance FO in the SE

Ive been playing super since the break (before the break was I a bit ropey!), had a great starting table which I stayed on until the FT. I arrived with about 70k, which was in the top 4. Theres 9 at the final table, I dont know most of the players.

I dont play a hand for about an orbit (I was very active before and was making a mental effort to slow down). Utg I squeeze one card, its an ace. If its a jack im probably going to throw it away. Unluckily its an ace. I make it 6k (bb =2k, no antes).

The guy on my left calls. He has a monster stack and has played almost every hand so far at the FT, limping mostly. I would hazard a guess that he was rubbish. Then on the button a guy wearing headphones looks at his cards and contemplates for a while. I think he is considering raising, but that may be wishfull thinking. He calls. Both players have more chips than me.

The flop is J 8 4r. I check. First guy checks, other guy checks.

River 9. I bet 12k. First guy calls quite quickly. Im almost positive this guy has a ten. Other guy thinks for a while, asks what the bet is. Thinks for a while and calls.

River is a 4, I check. Other guy checks. Then headphones bets 20k. Call fold raise? I can call the river 20k, lose and still play on comfortably, but I think thats a bad reason to call.

Im most interested in the river, but you can discuss the flop check if you want.

ocallagh

I would prob bet flop but it's dry enough so check is fine.

River is interesting. You really have shown no strength at all in this hand. Even your preflop raise is masked by your agressive image so I think you have to try and get more chips in here.

A value raise (min raise to 40k) is pointless because you only have 52k left so I think I try and look as weak as possible and shove all in.

The only thing beating you is a craftily played set but you'd have found out about that on the turn more than likely.

cardshark202

Wow I hate the flop check in a live tourney especially. Why check the flop? I'm hoping to get as many chips in the pot as possible.

On the river you almost certainly have the best hand although its unlikely anything worse will call you if you push, assuming the headphones guy is ok. I would call the river here, but against most live tourney 'players' I would raise for value.

EDIT: Just realised stacks are quite shallow in relation to pot so I shove here all day.

White Knight

I rather lead the river for 20k and fold to a raise (which surely would be an all in).

ocallagh

actually, just thinking about it more. if the other guy (not the earphone dude) is really bad, then maybe just flat calling river is better.

Hectorjelly

Just some quick points before bed, I dont think I have an aggressive image, ive never played with either of these 2 players before, and I havent played a hand yet. I should of made this clear.

I was kind of joking when I gave push as an option for the river. I may have the best hand but if I push and get called I certainly wont. I really hate a push here, I have very little idea of what the 2nd guy had, and I dont like value shoving 1 pair on the river unless i have a solid read of at least somebodys strength. Whilst the 4 counterfeits 2 pair, I doubt this guy has 2 pair. (the first guy could well have). Why is this guy betting 20k into 2 people? I think that he has me beat a good % of the time, and I think the times he value bets a worse hand and then calls my all in is about 0. I think its unlikely he checked AJ/QQ on the flop hoping to get all in later in the hand (allthough its not impossible)

I check the flop for a number of reasons, im not heads up, im out of position, Ill learn more from a check than a bet, and if I bet and get called in 2 places im in a very bad spot on the turn. Its hard to explain here why I check, it would take me a very long time. To cut it short, if I bet 12k here I am turning a small pot into a large one, out of position with two streets to go and plenty of money still to go in. Depending on the action I was considering check raising (probably not though). For nothing else, I think early on at the FT of a tournament filled with bad players its best to err on the side of caution. I would also rarely bet here without a hand, so its probably best that I check here with a good hand sometimes.

I didnt really consider betting the river, I think both guys are much more likely to bluff if I check, If I bet here, im showing a lot of strength so Its much harder for them to bluff. If I check it looks like missed completely and was attempting a steal on the turn. The button is far more likely to try and push me off what he probably thinks is AK and utg a missed draw. Also either of them may make a stupid value bet with a hand I beat. If I bet/fold I dont get to a showdown, and I think this is a definite disadvantage. That all said I may get value from weaker hands, but it doesnt really look like either of them have AJ/KJ which the only hands I would expect to call me.

Also if I check they will undoubatdly size their bet very badly, betting small with a strong hand which I can call easily. Often they would of bet less than 20k so I cost myself money by bet/folding.

kryogen

I dont like the flop check at all to be honest, i assume u were looking to check raise?? the straight seems unlikely, i dont see how the 4 makes a huge difference, unless there was a set hit on flop or turn, but as has already been stated i believe you would have found out on the turn....
i probably ship em unless i have that nagging voice telling me im beat.... Yeah i definatly ship all my chips in here 80% of the time,

Hectorjelly

the real question in my mind, is should I call/fold this? I cant really beat any hand he should be value betting, and I may well be exagerating the times he will bluff into two people. I know the guy to my left has a draw, but the button might not realise. He looked like he thought he knew what he was doing, but didnt think he did to any great extent. (not much of a read I know!)

StraddleFor6

He does not check flop with over pair or jack. He should raise turn with set, but who knows. Preflop Q10 looks unlikely, but is the only hand that makes sense on river that has you beat.
Can't see what he will call a raise with, without straight or house.
Just call.

NickyOD

That river bet makes no sense at all and in situations where I can't understand why the guy is betting I would never value raise. I'd actually be worried this guy is playing A-4. The preflop read could also have meant he was considering folding ace rag and saw some value, then somehow saw more value with bottom pair on the turn.

Of course if you are sure enough you are ahead you absolutely shove but only if you understand why this guy is betting the river.

BTW your flop check and river check make no sense to me at all.

Mr.Plough

i hate a shove here.

i just call 90% of time.

OOP i dont hate the flop check at all

BigCityBanker

I really think you need to raise more preflop but this is something that I have been thinking alot about lately and im probably gonna start a thread on it later.

I call the river bet and expect to be ahead often enough to make it profitable.

Bandana boy

I think you have to call
your hand is very well disguised so I think there are many hands that you beat will bet that river
I never push here I am hoping bad player might find a bad call here too which is nearly as good as a push being called and as I dont think anything calling a push is beat this is probably best way to maximise value and you dont put risk going out to A4 etc
If we call and raggy dude pushs and earphones calls that would be interesting

I think I bet that flop
Yes its dry enough but we know we have monster stack who likes to see cards We want to see him putting as much money in the pot as possible against our premium hands

sikes

youre almost getting 3/1, i cant fold. he is doing this enough with missed draws and 2 pairs which you beat.

flop check is ok, tho i wouldnt, though you cant really consider your image for a check here live. all they will think is that ah he has a monster, AA, and checks the flop. most people are stupid and wont consider the fact your were oop etc, thus giving your cbets less cred.

Flushdraw

I'm never pushing the river here as played. The only conceivable hand that can call that you beat is AJ, and thats borderline. I'm not sure how loose headphones is, but is Q10s in his range here? It seems to be the one hand you can be really scared of because i'd probably protect a set on the turn with this board.

J10s is a possibility with him picking up the extra outs on the turn but i dont think he'd be value betting the hand as it has some showdown value. I call the 20k river bet and hope he turns over A10s for a missed draw

Gholimoli

the flop check is fine and its something that ive started to do lately.
for me its all dependent on the stack but if im deep enough i think the flop check here is the best line to take.
HJ already said why so im not going to give reasons again .as i said though stack sizes are very important on whether you should check the flop or bet it.
as for the river i think a call is a must.
if the bet came from the first guy then i would consider a fold but button betting here does not mean much.
nither HJ nor the first guy have shown that you have any sort of a hand so any half decent button would naturally try and steal the pot there.
both of you have checked the flop and you have made what seems like a delayed Cbet on the turn with him just calling so if i was on the button this pot looks like it can be bought.
one of the reasons that i like the flop check is actually the fact that it induces this kind of bet on the river and some times the turn.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

one of the reasons that i like the flop check is actually the fact that it induces this kind of bet on the river and some times the turn.

this is one of the reasons i dont like it, we start going into check call mode against players who we have no information against, we will often be taken to valuetown or throw away the best hand, in exchange for pot control.

careca

I'd definetly call this. He might check a set on the flop but would he just smooth call the turn bet on that board?

Its actually very hard to put him on a hand. The only one i could see him playing that way is Q10 and if so, it was very weak preflop. Also QQ is a possibility and he called the turn bet after getting a gutshot draw but I'm surprised he didn't bet the flop with it.

I'm calling but expecting to see Q10 soooted.

Bandana boy

If it is QT it is horribly played
I know op doesnt give an opinion on headphones guy but assuming he is better than terrible you never slowplay a hand against a terrible player
OP suggests big stack is terrible and quickly called the 12K QT ships in a raise here every time imo to extract more from the big stack

nicnicnic

Flop check looks good to me in this situation but its also fine to lead, I don't agree that you get more information by checking. I call the river 20k

Gholimoli

sikes wrote:

this is one of the reasons i dont like it, we start going into check call mode against players who we have no information against, we will often be taken to valuetown or throw away the best hand, in exchange for pot control.

You are up against multiple opponents out of position.
Keeping the pot in control is essential here.
If you bet flop and get called in two places what is your plan for the turn?
What about river?
If you bet the flop and first dude calls, then the second dude is getting huge odds to call with a wide range of hands.
By inflating the pot you are creating a scenario where ppl are getting odds to call with a wide range, getting odds to bluff with a wide range (the pot being so big it makes it profitable to bluff) and as result putting your self in a horrible situation.
You are not going in to a check call mode in multiple streets.
The check will allow you to call a single bet on one street and also induces a bluff/value bet from a hand that you can beat.
If you check the flop and one of them bets on two streets you can safely fold on the second street, as your hand is often no good.

Ste05

I play this hand almost identically except I call the River pretty quick, you're getting nearly 3:1, and I'd say we have the best hand more than half the time. I think your hand is seriously under represented on what is a pretty dry board (if he has Q10 more power to him), I don't really see how you can ever seriously consider folding there. Also raising would be just madness.

Marq

I like the flop check. On a board like this there aren't many hands that give you lots of action unless they are far ahead of you.
I check-call the river. If you think this guy could be bad he could easily be betting a J,8 or 9. You'll lose a god % of the time, but I reckon the call is still profitable.

sikes

i prefer more information on the opponents before taking a passive flop line. I bet becuase I think its more likely we get money out of hands we beat than by checking, expecting an unknown to take the lead against an aggro player who raised in ep, and checked a dry flop. It would send alarm bells off I think, though HJ says he wouldnt bet this flop with most of his raising range, which I think is pretty weak.

ocallagh

yeah, the push is a bit rash... but you have looked so weak. Thinking about it again, I 100% call this and never consider folding.

There was very little action really. There were 12 opportunities in this hand to bet at the pot, and only 3 of them were acted on plus 2 of thise attempts were auto bets nearly.

I'd actually prefer to push than fold.

sikes

Gholimoli wrote:

You are up against multiple opponents out of position.
Keeping the pot in control is essential here.
If you bet flop and get called in two places what is your plan for the turn?

it very much depends on the turn card. If i am betting the flop and the turn is a blank, I am stacking off against these two on the turn. we will have about 50k left come the turn and the pot will be at 63k and I dont mind stacking off here if i run into a set so be it.

Gholimoli wrote:

What about river?

I have a big enough stack for two streets only here when playing 2 players, I want to pump it on the first two, rather than the last two becuase I then give a free turn card and when the river comes, I am always beat when called. When we get heads up on the flop, its different obvioulsy.

Gholimoli wrote:

If you bet the flop and first dude calls, then the second dude is getting huge odds to call with a wide range of hands.

On this board, i expect to take it down or get heads up a huge amount of the time. If they both call, then I am fairly confident I am ahead of button and considering the info on the player to our left, I am now even more confident that my hand is good.

Gholimoli wrote:

By inflating the pot you are creating a scenario where ppl are getting odds to call with a wide range, getting odds to bluff with a wide range (the pot being so big it makes it profitable to bluff) and as result putting your self in a horrible situation.

Our equity in the hand goes up when his bluffing range increases.

Gholimoli wrote:

You are not going in to a check call mode in multiple streets.
The check will allow you to call a single bet on one street and also induces a bluff/value bet from a hand that you can beat.
If you check the flop and one of them bets on two streets you can safely fold on the second street, as your hand is often no good.

Yeah this is the advantage of playing passively. But when i do this i want to more certain about the players and be aware of my image at the table and what is the most profitable way to play. Becuase i would cbet this flop against two oppoents and becuase my image is pretty lose, i would always bet.

this isnt the point HJ wanted opinions on anyway I know what the advantages are of checking the flop, I prefer a bet.

Jesus Wept

have to call the river, you've under represented your hand (which is fine), but now you have to call the river bet.... imo

connie147

You said yourself the reason you checked the river was that it was more than likely that one of them would bluff. I call here everytime as well. I think you played the hand very well and now that one of your opponnents has taken an obvious chance to buy the pot( i mean both you and big stack have shown absolutely no strength in the hand, the button surely thinks he can get a bet through you both. I imagine he'll turn over A-10 or something like that.

phantom_lord

snap call river?

Hitman Actual

Just a crying call for me as well. But I'd be doing it with a bad feeling, tbh.

Lissavalley

Call river even though you are probaly behind. I prefer a lead on the flop also. Never shove river.

bops

the headphone guy has 99!!

bet the flop, never check a flop with AA - even if there is an A on it!!

as played call the river and pay him off - only a complete monkey would reraise that river!

(someday i'll be right!)

Marq

!

Jaden

Looking over this from start to finish, this is what I would have concluded.

From the calls pre-flop, it looks like left guy has a PP, prolly TT but anything from 88-QQ (KK re-raise if he's active?).

Button guy has maybe a strong ace (A,K-J), he was contemplating a squeeze play, but just called, He's getting 2.5:1, assuming both blinds fold, he'll call with a decent range here.

21K in the pot on the flop, and checked all round. Hmmm. What's wrong with a standard continuation bet? Handing out free cards when you're sure you're ahead against multiple opponents? If you get called in both spots, slow down and re-evaluate the turn.

Your turn bet looks like a "where am I?"/ delayed continuation bet. Just over half the pot. Pot odds dictate a call from both players.

The river bet is an attempt to take it down after massive displays of weakness. He has AJ here?

Regardless, I call every time. If one of them has lucked a set, so be it. IF the Button has QT, call him a retard. (Oh wait, we don't do that any more).

Goodluck2me

how is it a poorly played QT? i think that its either QT or a bluff, maybe 99 actually too, but surely he`d bet 99. Im not sure how i like the way you have played it. I think it better to Bet the flop for protection at least. If they are bad the Jx and 8x will probably call you thinking you are cont betting. the way it has played out any 4x, QT will bet and surely only hands that beat you value bet. i certainly never push the river as you wont be called by a worse hand. Im prob 70% call and 30% fold here 0% shove.
shoving is bad also due to the fact the other player is likely to call for the 20K with a worse hand that the button is to call your shove with one.

Flushdraw

goodluck2me wrote:

shoving is bad also due to the fact the other player is likely to call for the 20K with a worse hand that the button is to call your shove with one.

English at its best

sikes

goodluck2me wrote:

Im prob 70% call and 30% fold here 0% shove.

i have noticed a few people say things like this recently. We have all the info HJ had at the time, either its profitable to call or not. This isn't a case where we mix up our play for deception or look at our watches for the answer!

Hectorjelly

Jaden wrote:

From the calls pre-flop, it looks like left guy has a PP, prolly TT but anything from 88-QQ (KK re-raise if he's active?).

how can you think this? hes played every hand so far at the FT, there is no reason to think he has a pair

Hectorjelly

sikes wrote:

though HJ says he wouldnt bet this flop with most of his raising range, which I think is pretty weak.

I dont often continuation bet into two players out of positon having totally missed no, I really dont think thats weak. I think its a waste of chips

Bandana boy

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont often continuation bet into two players out of positon having totally missed no, I really dont think thats weak. I think its a waste of chips

that assumes that this flop "Missed" your AA
I think this is a relatively good flop for your AA and you have big stack fish player in the hand Do you not want to maximise chips from this player ?
genuine question

bottom feeder

I’d make a continuation bet on the flop myself of around 18k to try push one guy out as I’d prefer heads up here, hoping to take it away on the turn…. [unless an Ace comes on the turn then I’d milk the mutha fu@ka]

Anyway on the river it’s a 100% call here and if it turns out one of the dudes has something like A 4 soooted or the unthinkable Q 10 well fair fu@ks to him……

Hector come on the suspense is killing me how the hand turn out…… LOL

Gholimoli

Bandana boy wrote:

that assumes that this flop "Missed" your AA
I think this is a relatively good flop for your AA and you have big stack fish player in the hand Do you not want to maximise chips from this player ?
genuine question

there is nothing to suggest that either of the players are aggro/over value hands/or bluff too much.
all we know is that one of them is very loos preflop.
what you need to reliase is that the hand does not end with a bet from us on the flop.
there are two more street to play with alot of chips behind.
if the hand was going to finish on the flop then yeah i bet would have been obvious.
we dont bet becuase we have to carry on till the river with our hand which is very unlikely to improve against two opponents who we have no idea about the streanght of their hand and how that flop is for them.

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont often continuation bet into two players out of positon having totally missed no, I really dont think thats weak. I think its a waste of chips

i wouldn't religiously cbet, but it certainly would be my default and not spew on this board. I dont think you will be playing 3 streets against 2 opponents either, we have less than a PSB on the turn, with a 14k flop bet. So either we are playing 2 streets against 2 opponents or 3 against 1, which is fine.

Goodluck2me

sikes wrote:

i have noticed a few people say things like this recently. We have all the info HJ had at the time, either its profitable to call or not. This isn't a case where we mix up our play for deception or look at our watches for the answer!

no but as we are not there we cannot know for sure, we wont have noticed tells/betting patterns, also there is no right/wrong answer as such, its not a definite call/definite fold//definite raise, what im saying is that most of the time i think its a call but it can often be a fold too.

Hectorjelly

Bandana boy wrote:

that assumes that this flop "Missed" your AA
I think this is a relatively good flop for your AA and you have big stack fish player in the hand Do you not want to maximise chips from this player ?
genuine question

I was refering to sikes point that it is weak to check when ive really missed (ie not when I have AA)

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

there is nothing to suggest that either of the players are aggro/over value hands/or bluff too much.
all we know is that one of them is very loos preflop.
what you need to reliase is that the hand does not end with a bet from us on the flop.
there are two more street to play with alot of chips behind.
if the hand was going to finish on the flop then yeah i bet would have been obvious.
we dont bet becuase we have to carry on till the river with our hand which is very unlikely to improve against two opponents who we have no idea about the streanght of their hand and how that flop is for them.

this makes very little sense. you say

"what you need to reliase is that the hand does not end with a bet from us on the flop." -

it obviously wont end if we check, but how do you know it wont if we bet. when we bet here we are most likely ahead, we dont need to improve.

you also say

"we have no idea about the streanght of their hand and how that flop is for them."

-
well bet it then and find out. the longer the hand goes on the more likely it is that we will have to call a bet when we are even more likely behind. We should value bet the river, and take it down if they have missed or charge them for a draw. i dont like a check here at all, it only gives their preflop call more value by seeing an extra street form free. Hand liek QT/99 will likely fold to the flop bet and hands liek Jx will call.we are now in a situation where we are at the river with a difficult decision and can likely be behind, we cant value bet with a strong hand as its strength is diminished from each street. this isnt a cash game and i think our priority should be to bet out the flop to protect our hand and if so take down the 20K in the pot.

Bandana boy

Gholimoli wrote:

there is nothing to suggest that either of the players are aggro/over value hands/or bluff too much.
all we know is that one of them is very loos preflop.
.

This is 100% correct and maybe my assumption is wrong
but i find that bad loose preflop players are usually bad loose flop players (couple of exceptions )
and those who excitedly insta call with what looks like Tx on that turn probably looks more like this assumption is not totally out of line.

Again I believe I need to make money from these kind of players with these kind of hands but then i am possibly guilty of overplaying QQ KK AA

Bandana boy

Hectorjelly wrote:

I was refering to sikes point that it is weak to check when ive really missed (ie not when I have AA)

Fair enough

If i get more than 1 caller my CB rate at least halves if i have air

Hectorjelly

i called him, and he annoyingly sat there and did nothing for a while. Finally he takes off his headphones, and I shout across the table again that ive called. He then thinks for a while, seemingly hoping Ill show my cards, then almost relunctantly showed 88 for a house. I muck. I was pretty steaming until i realised that if he bet the flop he would of probably ended with all my chips.

I wasnt sure if it was a good call or not, I think he probably bluffs there a lot less than I would, and I doubt he value bets many worse hands.

BigCityBanker

Ever consider asking El Stuntman for a loan of one of his many Triad Gangs?

Gholimoli

goodluck2me wrote:

this makes very little sense. you say it obviously wont end if we check, but how do you know it wont if we bet. when we bet here we are most likely ahead, we dont need to improve.

you also say -
well bet it then and find out. the longer the hand goes on the more likely it is that we will have to call a bet when we are even more likely behind. We should value bet the river, and take it down if they have missed or charge them for a draw. i dont like a check here at all, it only gives their preflop call more value by seeing an extra street form free. Hand liek QT/99 will likely fold to the flop bet and hands liek Jx will call.we are now in a situation where we are at the river with a difficult decision and can likely be behind, we cant value bet with a strong hand as its strength is diminished from each street. this isnt a cash game and i think our priority should be to bet out the flop to protect our hand and if so take down the 20K in the pot.

you didnt understand what i was saying at all.

when i say the hand will not end with a bet on the flop i mean we have to think about future streets as well.as oppose to the river when there is no future street.

im not saying we should/should not end the hand here .
also 99 has two outs to beat us and QT has 4 outs to beat us so considering the chance they have of improving it becomes much more important to protect your stack than to charge them for drawing.
ppl often talk about not giving free cards/charging for draws etc but they fail to understand the theory behind it and when you need to be concerned with it.
i dont think out decesion on the river is difficult at all and im surprised that HJ has so much difficulty making this call.
the way the hand was played warrents this call.
the hand was played in a manner so that we can make this call .
unless there was some sort of physical tell that put HJ in uncomfort i really dont understand why ?
also single pair hands are not that great for value betting anyway and the deeper you get the more you should try to keep the pot small unless you are playing total donkeys who constantly and dramatically over value hands.