Time to prepare for a United Ireland even if it does not happen?

darkman2

Hi,


Im sure like me your a bit wary of hearing about our freinds to the North however some serious issues are going to have to be addressed in the next few years that will really impact on us. Namely the likelyhood that either:

a: the breakup of the UK is getting closer should Scotland opt for a referendum on Independence and this will leave us with little choice but to take care of Northern Ireland in a way we have not previously done (this is under the reasonable assumption of course that once Scotland leaves the Union England will call time on the UK and only have a loose union with Wales) Such a development in Scotland would undoubtedly have dramatic consequences for Northern Ireland which is not a viable state on its own. Under such an outcome I can only see the English really pushing for joint sovereignty or that NI leave the UK altogether.

b: That a vote on Northern Ireland's posistion in the UK is held and won by a nationalist majority. This may be unlikely for the next 10 or 15 years at the very least.

Im not implying here I want a UI or otherwise that NI should be in the UK. My question is that with such outcomes on the distant horizon should we have a plan now based on what will need to happen here to sustain Northern Ireland financially, politically and militarily. This has huge relevance for the future of this country and its hardly been debated yet. I think to not even have a plan should the 'doomsday' outcome occur in Northern Ireland would be very short sighted. Given a UI may never happen - I really think we should have a major plan ready just in case.

What do you all think?

P.S I dont mean a major plan debated in a way that antagonises Unionists but one quietly drawn up between the two goverments just in case.........

wes

Never a bad idea to plan for such things. May never happen, but better to be prepared I reckon.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

Hi,


Im sure like me your a bit wary of hearing about our freinds to the North however some serious issues are going to have to be addressed in the next few years that will really impact on us. Namely the likelyhood that either:

a: the breakup of the UK is getting closer should Scotland opt for a referendum on Independence and this will leave us with little choice but to take care of Northern Ireland in a way we have not previously done (this is under the reasonable assumption of course that once Scotland leaves the Union England will call time on the UK and only have a loose union with Wales) Such a development in Scotland would undoubtedly have dramatic consequences for Northern Ireland which is not a viable state on its own. Under such an outcome I can only see the English really pushing for joint sovereignty or that NI leave the UK altogether.

Assuming the SNP get the majority in Scotland and call a referendum that results in a majority in favour of Scottish independence, then yes, I agree that the implications for Northern Ireland will be somewhat significant (especially given the Unionist's preference for West/East co-operation above North/South co-operation).

That said Unionists don't oppose Irish unity because they want to be in the same group as their Scottish buddies and while any change in the NI/Scotland relationship will always create complications it won't change the ideological beliefs of the majority of NI's citizens... That said I do think an independent Scotland would a) create stronger ties with RoI, as we're their poster-boys for independence and b) move closer to the EU and adopt the Euro, both of which will create issues for NI.

b: That a vote on Northern Ireland's posistion in the UK is held and won by a nationalist majority. This may be unlikely for the next 10 or 15 years at the very least.

There were fears of nationalists "outbreeding" the Unionist population a few years ago, but the most recent census dispelled that - if it is going to happen it won't be for a considerably long time... far more than 10-15 years.

I personally think Scottish independence will put more pressure on the Unionist argument but there is only one thing that will lead to a United Ireland and that's when people in NI believe they stand to gain more in Ireland than they do in Britain.... that kind of debate won't even be heard, let along proven or disproven, for a long time yet.

Oh - and Wales and England will remain just as close as they do now, and the English Government would gladly hand NI over to the RoI tomorrow if they had the mandate, so neither of those things are issues.

P.S I dont mean a major plan debated in a way that antagonises Unionists but one quietly drawn up between the two goverments just in case.........

What makes you think that one doesn't already exist?

darkman2

flogen wrote:

What makes you think that one doesn't already exist?

Interesting. You may be right. Certainly the way we are kind of budgeting funds to NI at the moment may suggest the first tentative steps to eventual withdrawal from NI on the British side in anticipation of a future successful vote for Unity. What better way to do it then introduce the South in financially and gradually build up the contribution? Having said that, that could be a little far fetched. I agree with your comments about Scotland. There is no way in my view they would consider taking on Northern Ireland. Even if they tried it would seriously annoy us, something which as you say they are unlikely to do because there is a great relationship between the ROI and Scotland anyway and I dont think they would intentionally want to sour that. Unionists would undoubtedly be 'lost' if Scotland gained independence. So I agree with you - we would have to show them they have more to gain with us politically, financially and socially. One thing I will say though is that many Unionists genuinely have very distorted views about us in the South. Like they would be oppressed and all that. These ridiculous attitudes really need to be countered. That will take a long time on its own. For Unity everyone would have to believe that the resulting society would be all-inclusive. Major eductaion strategy needed in that respect I think.

marco murphy

I believe we're moving forward to a UI. As darkman said, some unionists have distorted views about us southern monsters . That has to be addressed, and events such as Bertie shaking Paisleys hand help things move forward IMO.
The assembly will be up and running soon, cross border buisness is on the increase, all in all it's looking good, and all making a base for unity to take place IMO.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

Interesting. You may be right. Certainly the way we are kind of budgeting funds to NI at the moment may suggest the first tentative steps to eventual withdrawal from NI on the British side in anticipation of a future successful vote for Unity. What better way to do it then introduce the South in financially and gradually build up the contribution? Having said that, that could be a little far fetched. I agree with your comments about Scotland. There is no way in my view they would consider taking on Northern Ireland.

Huh? Who said anything about Scotland taking on NI? They'd have a hard time becoming economically viable by themselves, there ain't a chance in hell that they'd strap some extra weight to their backs for good measure.

Unionists would undoubtedly be 'lost' if Scotland gained independence.

I disagree - their argument would be a little weaker, but they would be far from lost.

One thing I will say though is that many Unionists genuinely have very distorted views about us in the South. Like they would be oppressed and all that. These ridiculous attitudes really need to be countered. That will take a long time on its own.

Yeah - but we really showed them how mature we are with that whole Love Ulster thing... (obviously that was far from representative, but it was allowed to happen, and that's enough to make things even worse).

For Unity everyone would have to believe that the resulting society would be all-inclusive. Major eductaion strategy needed in that respect I think.

What do you suggest? A new curriculum in NI? We're just as mis-educated about Unionist culture and NI as they are about Republicanism and the RoI... what we need to do is get on with building a viable and logical relationship with NI and stop trying to maneuver them and us with a view to creating unity - that just breeds paranoia and mistrust. How about we as a country just get on with our lives and let people in NI decide for themselves if joining us is right or wrong... sure beats trying to "re-educate" them until they come up with the "right" answer.

darkman2

Poblachtach wrote:

I believe we're moving forward to a UI. As darkman said, some unionists have distorted views about us southern monsters . That has to be addressed, and events such as Bertie shaking Paisleys hand help things move forward IMO.
The assembly will be up and running soon, cross border buisness is on the increase, all in all it's looking good, and all making a base for unity to take place IMO.

Do you remember what David Trimble said about us only a couple of years ago - 'pathetic, sectarian, mono-ethnic, mono-cultural state' - make you wonder what planet these guys are living on. It was also an incredibly Ironic statement that coming from Northern Ireland. However joking aside. That attitude exists. Most Unionists have never been here. Its like were diseased or something. Something has to be done about that.

darkman2

flogen wrote:

Huh? Who said anything about Scotland taking on NI? They'd have a hard time becoming economically viable by themselves, there ain't a chance in hell that they'd strap some extra weight to their backs for good measure.



I disagree - their argument would be a little weaker, but they would be far from lost.



Yeah - but we really showed them how mature we are with that whole Love Ulster thing... (obviously that was far from representative, but it was allowed to happen, and that's enough to make things even worse).



What do you suggest? A new curriculum in NI? We're just as mis-educated about Unionist culture and NI as they are about Republicanism and the RoI... what we need to do is get on with building a viable and logical relationship with NI and stop trying to maneuver them and us with a view to creating unity - that just breeds paranoia and mistrust. How about we as a country just get on with our lives and let people in NI decide for themselves if joining us is right or wrong... sure beats trying to "re-educate" them until they come up with the "right" answer.

Sorry I should have been clearer. Ive just heard rumours that Unionists wanted Scotland to have them if the UK disappeared. Not that you said it at all.

TBH I think Unionists really do need to be educated about us, in particular this society today - not 60 years ago when we were under the thumb of the Catholic Church. I definately think Unionist attitudes toward us is simple lack of education. I can see no other reason for it. I mean some of the views there are simply incredible.


Love Ulster - Lets be honest they came with the intention of showing Unionists what animals we are down here - they succeeded not because those rioting gave a damn about them but because some Dublin scumbags wanted a new pair of runners. They took that back up there claiming this is ROI today.

About how Unionists would feel about Scotland leaving the Union. TBH I think their argument would be more then a little weaker.

marco murphy

Yeah - but we really showed them how mature we are with that whole Love Ulster thing... (obviously that was far from representative, but it was allowed to happen, and that's enough to make things even worse).

We can do more good things than bad. Hopefully than can be forgotten about.

Do you remember what David Trimble said about us only a couple of years ago - 'pahtetic, sectarian, mono-ethnic, mono-cultural state' - make you wonder what planet these guys are living on. It was also an incredibly Ironic statement that coming from Northern Ireland. However joking aside. That attitude exists. Most Unionists have never been here. Its like were diseased or something. Something has to be done about that.

Unionist Outreach is a big part of Sinn Feins goings on. It's productive. It's very humbling to see Paisley sitting close to Adams, then shaking Berties hand. Paisley has a lot of supporters behind him (obviously) and he needs to take off that bigoted mask and move forward. He has the power to talk to a broad amount of unionists. Progress is being made daily. Eventually, hopefully, unionists will see our true colours. How or when I dont know.


EDIT : I suppose a start could be joining up on Unionist forums and make a start.

darkman2

Poblachtach wrote:

We can do more good things than bad. Hopefully than can be forgotten about.


Unionist Outreach is a big part of Sinn Feins goings on. It's productive. It's very humbling to see Paisley sitting close to Adams, then shaking Berties hand. Paisley has a lot of supporters behind him (obviously) and he needs to take off that bigoted mask and move forward. He has the power to talk to a broad amount of unionists. Progress is being made daily. Eventually, hopefully, unionists will see our true colours. How or when I dont know.


EDIT : I suppose a start could be joining up on Unionist forums and make a start.

I actually wonder why the Northern forums on Boards dont seem to do much business Not interested I suppose. It would be good to see genuine unionists from NI getting their own views across. Maybe then people would understand a bit better.

marco murphy

I've just signed up on one, It should be encouraged. It's something that needs to be done.

darkman2

Poblachtach wrote:

I've just signed up on one, It should be encouraged. It's something that needs to be done.

I know of one site but its a bigoted, twisted one where Nationalists are not even allowed to post. I would not want to anyway tbh.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

Sorry I should have been clearer. Ive just heard rumours that Unionists wanted Scotland to have them if the UK disappeared. Not that you said it at all.

I remember there being some confusion when the suggestion was made that if Scotland jumps, NI should go with them - as far as I know that was someone saying that NI should go independent at the same time as Scotland, but not for the two of them to become one single independent state.

TBH I think Unionists really do need to be educated about us, in particular this society today - not 60 years ago when we were under the thumb of the Catholic Church. I definately think Unionist attitudes toward us is simple lack of education. I can see no other reason for it. I mean some of the views there are simply incredible.

I've seen plenty to suggest the same amount of ignorance on the other side too - I know very little about the history behind Ulster-Scots, and I bet most people just assume Unionists are only unionists because they love the Crown, which isn't true.

Love Ulster - Lets be honest they came with the intention of showing Unionists what animals we are down here

That's arguable, but even if they came looking for a reaction, people here were stupid enough to give them one.

They succeeded not because those rioting gave a damn about them but because some Dublin scumbags wanted a new pair of runners. They took that back up there claiming this is ROI today.

Actually I failed to see a single member of that march saying anything negative about RoI, and I personally was surprised.
The Gardaí were praised and stories of passers by coming over and chatting to the marchers, welcoming them and having a chin-wag were told a few times - Jeffery Donaldson was on the news saying how he knew these idiots weren't representative of the people of Ireland etc.

About how Unionists would feel about Scotland leaving the Union. TBH I think their argument would be more then a little weaker.

We could argue about the exact weakness of the Unionist argument in light of Scottish independence all day, but the fact is that it would be weakened, I just don't believe it would be enough to speed up Irish unity - the death of extremism and the arrival of rationality within the North/South debate is the only thing that has any chance of achieving that.

marco murphy

Well the one I've just signed up on appears to think we're all IRA men haha.
I put forward a few questions, lets hope i don't get banned.

marco murphy

Actually I failed to see a single member of that march saying anything negative about RoI, and I personally was surprised

Nah just carrying banners glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there.

darkman2

Poblachtach wrote:

Well the one I've just signed up on appears to think we're all IRA men haha.
I put forward a few questions, lets hope i don't get banned.

This particular website would not begin with 'c' by any chance?;) Would not touch it with a barge pole tbh. They can keep the hatred and bigotry. Some people you cannot talk to.

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

Nah just carrying banners glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there.

Really? Perhaps you can enlighten me on that one - I know there was an issue of the hypocrisy that existed in the march, that is that Unionist victims were mourned (and the IRA attacked for these deaths) while Nationalist victims were ignored (and Loyalist groups let off the hook by them), but I don't remember anything about glorifying dead catholics.

darkman2

flogen wrote:

Really? Perhaps you can enlighten me on that one - I know there was an issue of the hypocrisy that existed in the march, that is that Unionist victims were mourned (and the IRA attacked for these deaths) while Nationalist victims were ignored (and Loyalist groups let off the hook by them), but I don't remember anything about glorifying dead catholics.

In fairness flogen, it has to be said they did come for a reaction. I would of liked to see their attitude on the bus crossing the border on the way to Dublin. I dont believe they were 'mourning'. However I do have symphathy with your point about good comments from Unionist politicians and tbh Willie Frazier (the organiser) only got a handful of votes in the recent election. So maybe I was wrong but I wonder what 'normal' unionists in the North actually thought?

johnnyskeleton

darkman2 wrote:

Hi,a: the breakup of the UK is getting closer should Scotland opt for a referendum on Independence and this will leave us with little choice but to take care of Northern Ireland in a way we have not previously done (this is under the reasonable assumption of course that once Scotland leaves the Union England will call time on the UK and only have a loose union with Wales) Such a development in Scotland would undoubtedly have dramatic consequences for Northern Ireland which is not a viable state on its own. Under such an outcome I can only see the English really pushing for joint sovereignty or that NI leave the UK altogether.

1) Take care of Northern Ireland? For over a century, up until about 10 years ago NI was richer than ROI, then we had a boom that could well blow up in our faces, so what gives us the right to patronise NI? They have better infrastructure than us, great 3rd level education, etc. If anything, if there is peace it is a great investment opportunity. It's not like we're rich West Germany taking on the East after years of communist oppression and exploitation.

2) I disagree that it is not a viable state on its own. If it was an independent state it is not going to simply collapse, it would still have funding from the EU. It is a country of around 1.5m people. Andora is not economically feasible, Montenegro is not economically feasible (yet they still manage it), but NI is much bigger than them. I think when the split happened in around 1920(?), economic viablity was important. That is why they had 6 counties instead of 4. But in the modern age where large armies etc. are not essential, I don't see why it is not viable.

3) When Paisely came to meet Bertie, he said something to the effect of "I look forward to co-operation between our respective countries" i.e. making it clear that NI was a separate country. There is, I think, a clear intention that NI would be independent rather than part of ROI.

darkman2 wrote:

b: That a vote on Northern Ireland's position in the UK is held and won by a nationalist majority. This may be unlikely for the next 10 or 15 years at the very least.

I don't think that if the majority of people in NI were nationalist that we would see a united Ireland. Originally, Unionists wanted to run the entire Island, and I don't think that they would allow a united Ireland. They would, I imagine, find some way to justify not giving up some corner of the Island.

darkman2 wrote:

I’m not implying here I want a UI or otherwise that NI should be in the UK. My question is that with such outcomes on the distant horizon should we have a plan now based on what will need to happen here to sustain Northern Ireland financially, politically and militarily. This has huge relevance for the future of this country and its hardly been debated yet. I think to not even have a plan should the 'doomsday' outcome occur in Northern Ireland would be very short sighted. Given a UI may never happen - I really think we should have a major plan ready just in case.

Notwithstanding the above, and my view that a United Ireland is not certain and even if it is, it's a very LONG way off, I don't think there is that much to plan for. Change over of currency, transfer schools over to DoE over say 10 years, health can merge pretty easily, laws are very similar, passports and other minor details can be easily integrated, and the electoral constituencies may need to be changed, but what’s new?

If France and Germany can merge relatively easily, I don't see why both Irelands can't. Especially since the EU imposes its will on the whole Island of Ireland.

So to plan for such a far off eventuality is a bit premature, and while it is fine for us on boards, I don't think the government should waste its time and money on it.

marco murphy

This particular website would not begin with 'c' by any chance? Would not touch it with a barge pole tbh. They can keep the hatred and bigotry. Some people you cannot talk to.

No however I think I know the one. I dont know how it is allowed on the net to be honest.

Really? Perhaps you can enlighten me on that one - I know there was an issue of the hypocrisy that existed in the march, that is that Unionist victims were mourned (and the IRA attacked for these deaths) while Nationalist victims were ignored (and Loyalist groups let off the hook by them), but I don't remember anything about glorifying dead catholics.

Lets be realistic. The scumbags who rioted did'nt represent Ireland, or southerners if you like.
Just like Willie Frazer and his line up of Loyalist Flute Bands dont represent Northern Unionists. (As highlighted by darkman, Mr Frazer did'nt exactly top the poll in his constituency.)
This man supported Brit collusion with Loyalist Paramilitaries and praised Billy Wright ona number of occasions. The man is an advocate of hatred. Im not suprised some realtives of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings were protesting against him and his entourage.

marco murphy

This particular website would not begin with 'c' by any chance? Would not touch it with a barge pole tbh. They can keep the hatred and bigotry. Some people you cannot talk to.

No however I think I know the one. I dont know how it is allowed on the net to be honest.

Really? Perhaps you can enlighten me on that one - I know there was an issue of the hypocrisy that existed in the march, that is that Unionist victims were mourned (and the IRA attacked for these deaths) while Nationalist victims were ignored (and Loyalist groups let off the hook by them), but I don't remember anything about glorifying dead catholics.

Lets be realistic. The scumbags who rioted did'nt represent Ireland, or southerners if you like.
Just like Willie Frazer and his line up of Loyalist Flute Bands dont represent Northern Unionists. (As highlighted by darkman, Mr Frazer did'nt exactly top the poll in his constituency.)
This man supported Brit collusion with Loyalist Paramilitaries and praised Billy Wright ona number of occasions. The man is an advocate of hatred. Im not suprised some realtives of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings were protesting against him and his entourage.

purple'n'gold

Some people on here seem to think that it will be only a matter of changing currency and the colour of our post boxes and hey! It’s a united Ireland folks! It won’t happen for many many years. Never forget, a sizable portion of the protestant population of Northern Ireland despise the people of the republic. They hate Catholics, period, and will never be persuaded that this is now a secular state.

marco murphy

They hate Catholics, period, and will never be persuaded that this is now a secular state.

As there are catholics that hate protestants. Get over it.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

In fairness flogen, it has to be said they did come for a reaction. I would of liked to see their attitude on the bus crossing the border on the way to Dublin. I dont believe they were 'mourning'. However I do have symphathy with your point about good comments from Unionist politicians and tbh Willie Frazier (the organiser) only got a handful of votes in the recent election. So maybe I was wrong but I wonder what 'normal' unionists in the North actually thought?

I thought that when the march was announced, but if they were looking for a reaction to justify their anti-Ireland view, then they certainly did a terrible job in taking advantage of the one they got.
As I said before, though, even if they were looking for a reaction, their attempts were dependent on stupid people doing stupid things - a handful of people were only happy to fit that bill.

Poblachtach wrote:

Lets be realistic. The scumbags who rioted did'nt represent Ireland, or southerners if you like.

Agreed.

Just like Willie Frazer and his line up of Loyalist Flute Bands dont represent Northern Unionists. (As highlighted by darkman, Mr Frazer did'nt exactly top the poll in his constituency.)

Agreed.

This man supported Brit collusion with Loyalist Paramilitaries and praised Billy Wright ona number of occasions. The man is an advocate of hatred. Im not suprised some realtives of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings were protesting against him and his entourage.

Frazer certainly is a hypocritic, and the personfication of everything that's wrong with Northern Ireland (not his PoV, but his blinkered stance on everything).

With all that out of the way, where were the signs glorifying the murder of Catholics in Northern Ireland?

LordSutch

darkman2 wrote:

Hi, Im sure like me your a bit wary of hearing about our freinds to the North however some serious issues are going to have to be addressed in the next few years that will really impact on us. Namely the likelyhood that either:

a: the breakup of the UK is getting closer should Scotland opt for a referendum on Independence and this will leave us with little choice but to take care of Northern Ireland in a way we have not previously done (this is under the reasonable assumption of course that once Scotland leaves the Union England will call time on the UK and only have a loose union with Wales) Such a development in Scotland would undoubtedly have dramatic consequences for Northern Ireland which is not a viable state on its own. Under such an outcome I can only see the English really pushing for joint sovereignty or that NI leave the UK altogether.

Wow Darkman, thats some conclusion you have arrived at, so lets start with Scotland leaving the Union, it may leave? although I would be very surprised if it does, & time will tell, but even if it does leave the Union surely Westminster would then be in a far better position to pump more money into Northern Ireland as a direct result of the savings made from the loss of Scotland, and where would the Royal Navy birth its Northern fleet once the Scottish Naval yards have gone? Northern Ireland I suggest & think of all the Extra Jobs for the North too, hence making the North even more integral to the New UK (excluding Scotland) ..... hypothetically speaking of course

darkman2 wrote:

b: That a vote on Northern Ireland's posistion in the UK is held and won by a nationalist majority. This may be unlikely for the next 10 or 15 years at the very least.

As far as I am aware it might take Fifty to one hundred years to 'Out breed' the Unionist people, and even then you must take into account the fact that a sizeable number of Nationalists also wish to keep the North within the UK! and then there are the impondrables like 'How would the Poles or the Chinese vote'? and the most interesting oddity that I have heard recently 'Would the North join with Scotland' and create a New Political Union? (Scotland + Northern Ireland) ............ interesting eh

darkman2 wrote:

Im not implying here I want a UI or otherwise that NI should be in the UK. My question is that with such outcomes on the distant horizon should we have a plan now based on what will need to happen here to sustain Northern Ireland financially, politically and militarily. This has huge relevance for the future of this country and its hardly been debated yet. I think to not even have a plan should the 'doomsday' outcome occur in Northern Ireland would be very short sighted. Given a UI may never happen - I really think we should have a major plan ready just in case.

I suspect that if a so called 'United Ireland' was on the cards we would all see it coming down the tracks decades before it arrives, and even if it did, I suspect that our National Anthem and our Green White & Orange flag would be some of the first victims of a New Union between North & South.

darkman2 wrote:

What do you all think?

P.S I dont mean a major plan debated in a way that antagonises Unionists but one quietly drawn up between the two goverments just in case.........

Unionists always feel under seige because they are under seige not so much from the South anymore but from Sinn Fein who are now going to do their utmost to Extract the North from the UK bit by Bit, day by day week by week, and I suspect that this will make the Unionist/ British people of the North even more British & more unlikely to surrender...............

Dont Panic Darkman.

darkman2

ArthurF wrote:

Wow Darkman, thats some conclusion you have arrived at, so lets start with Scotland leaving the Union, it may leave? although I would be very surprised if it does, & time will tell, but even if it does leave the Union surely Westminster would then be in a far better position to pump more money into Northern Ireland as a direct result of the savings made from the loss of Scotland, and where would the Royal Navy birth its Northern fleet once the Scottish Naval yards have gone? Northern Ireland I suggest & think of all the Extra Jobs for the North too, hence making the North even more integral to the New UK (excluding Scotland) ..... hypothetically speaking of course



As far as I am aware it might take Fifty to one hundred years to 'Out breed' the Unionist people, and even then you must take into account the fact that a sizeable number of Nationalists also wish to keep the North within the UK! and then there are the impondrables like 'How would the Poles or the Chinese vote'? and the most interesting oddity that I have heard recently 'Would the North join with Scotland' and create a New Political Union? (Scotland + Northern Ireland) ............ interesting eh



I suspect that if a so called 'United Ireland' was on the cards we would all see it coming down the tracks decades before it arrives, and even if it did, I suspect that our National Anthem and our Green White & Orange flag would be some of the first victims of a New Union between North & South.



Unionists always feel under seige because they are under seige not so much from the South anymore but from Sinn Fein who are now going to do their utmost to Extract the North from the UK bit by Bit, day by day week by week, and I suspect that this will make the Unionist/ British people of the North even more British & more unlikely to surrender...............

Dont Panic Darkman.

Im well aware of your political persausion on this forum but if you think a newly independent Scotland would have any interest or capacity to take on board Northern Ireland your seriously mistaken. They have very good relations with us and genuinely are not stupid people. Neither are the British btw. If you think, after years of trying to sort the North out, the British would militarise it any further your living in cloud cuckoo land. The British will off-load Northern Ireland shortly after Scottish independence. Ive no doubt about that at all. Scottish independence is the ultimate excuse. It invalidates most of unionisms arguments.

BTW who in gods name has talked about 'surrender' here? Dont tell me you live in the 1600's too

LordSutch

Ergo; the Good Friday Agreement is for the Bin? does'nt the GFA say that for as long as the majority of people living in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK, then they will do so?

P.S. This whole thread is in Cloud-Cuckoo-land, from top to bottom hence my smilies

darkman2

ArthurF wrote:

Ergo; the Good Friday Agreement is for the Bin?

Doesnt the GFA say that for as long as the majority of people living in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK, then they will do so.

Of course but it is obsolete if the UK does not exist;)

marco murphy

With all that out of the way, where were the signs glorifying the murder of Catholics in Northern Ireland?

Well take a look at the following bass drum. Iam happy it was'nt shown on TV, imagine the response then?

Rising Sons Loyalist Flute Band E.Belfast
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9484/shortstrand11120706059by0.jpg

Apologies for not knowing my Loyalist Bands off by heart but have a look at the loyalist flags on this banner.
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4876/normaldsc00088bj0.jpg

Oh and hey, another band that visited Dublin, the Youth UVF!!
(Pic not uploading, but some nice decorative UVF flags.)

Unionists always feel under seige because they are under seige not so much from the South anymore but from Sinn Fein who are now going to do their utmost to Extract the North from the UK bit by Bit, day by day week by week, and I suspect that this will make the Unionist/ British people of the North even more British & more unlikely to surrender...............

How do you get that impression? Unionists voted overwhelmingly to see the DUP and Sinn Fein in power together. Hardly a sign of feeling ''under seige''.

Dont Panic Darkman.

Eh....

ninty9er

ArthurF wrote:

Ergo; the Good Friday Agreement is for the Bin? does'nt the GFA say that for as long as the majority of people living in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK, then they will do so?

P.S. This whole thread is in Cloud-Cuckoo-land, from top to bottom hence my smilies

What about allowing the people of the Republic to parttake in the referendum, to see if changes circumstances would see the Republic reject Northern Ireland's integration.


As recently as 2005, Bertie; as leader of Fianna Fáil - The Republican Party; said at the time he doesn't see even negotiations beginning for at least 10 years. Other Ministers such as Dermot Ahern are steadfast in their belief they will see a UI in their lifetime.

That said, there is a tiny (less than 1%), but growing minority of people like me in the party who were asked to join and "bring your own ideas".

I'm not for a Northern Ireland within the UK and I'm not for a 32 county Republic. People like myself are continuosly told Northern Ireland isn't a viable economic state...I'm sure the same could easily have been said about the Republic when we gained independence.

NI had a population of almost 1.7 million in 2001, so presumably it's now heading for 2 million. Luxumbourg, Malta and Iceland all have fractions of this population and are viable eceonmies....Innovation not population is what makes a country viable.

Of course we and Britain would have to offer support to the new fledgling state, and the EU might be a place to look to for support too??

marco murphy

I'm not for a Northern Ireland within the UK and I'm not for a 32 county Republic.

Being a member of a ''Republican Party'' just what are you for?

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

Well take a look at the following bass drum. Iam happy it was'nt shown on TV, imagine the response then?

Rising Sons Loyalist Flute Band E.Belfast
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9484/shortstrand11120706059by0.jpg

Apologies for not knowing my Loyalist Bands off by heart but have a look at the loyalist flags on this banner.
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4876/normaldsc00088bj0.jpg

You're seriously showing me random pictures of marching bands in an attempt to prove that they were carrying signs glorifying the murder of Catholics during the Love Ulster parade?

And for fear of being obtuse, those two examples linked don't even equate to the suggestion you were making - that they had signs "glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there". Plenty of Orange marches are sickeningly sectarian, and plenty of the marchers took part in the Love Ulster parade, but you've added 1 + 1 and gotten 3.

fly_agaric

ninty9er wrote:

What about allowing the people of the Republic to parttake in the referendum, to see if changes circumstances would see the Republic reject Northern Ireland's integration.

I'd like that too. I doubt we will get the chance to vote on these issues at all. Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

K-9

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd like that too. I doubt we will get the chance to vote on these issues at all. Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

I'm sure the DUP/UUP didn't shout about NI contributing towards the UK subvention to the EC in the 80's/90's, thus providing funds to the Good People of the 23 Counties.

There does need to be a recognition, like Gerry Adams admits, that there is not going to be a 32 County United Ireland in the short term.

Therfore, Republican or Nationalism doesn't really come into it. There will be a NI in the UK, and not in a United Ireland, but with considerable influence from the Republic, for the forseeable future. It doesn't matter if you are republican or nationalist, thats the reality.

ninty9er wrote:

What about allowing the people of the Republic to parttake in the referendum, to see if changes circumstances would see the Republic reject Northern Ireland's integration.

There seems to be a growing opinion agreeing to this.

IMO, i don't agree with it, but if this continues and the majority of the people in the Republic reject NI's integration, well no matter how much I don't agree with it, who am I to disagree with democracy?

cathald

In the end that is one of the questions, I would like to know. Anytime I hear the word democracy I am starting to wonder on the correctness of it. Seems like one side always seems to try to shut the other one up.....discrimination etc.

ninty9er

Poblachtach wrote:

Being a member of a ''Republican Party'' just what are you for?

I'm for providing the people of this great republic with the services they deserve, and re-igniting the traditional customs & values of Irish society, such as neighbourliness, community spirit and a lessened slense of greed....now don't get me wrong I'm not saying a little selfishness is a bad thing, and risk has to be rewarded. Just that we have enough problems this side of the border.

In the long run there'd always be a psychological north/south divide anyway. Most people who I know (outside of FF) that are "anti them F*ing brits, giv us back our f*ing country" would have absolutely no interest in seeing that it works after a piece of paper allowing it were signed. They're more anti-Brit than pro-UI, which makes no sense.

There's a part of me deep down that wants to get the pitchfork, march over the border in front of a cavalcade of tanks and tractors:p and "reclaim the north", but I then consider:
There is a Unionist population that will be agrieved at this, just as the nationalist population is with the current situation, and the way I see it; it's better that neither of them have it their way than just changing the balances around.

I'd be strongly in favour of an all island economy and currency, but an all island government jsut won't be able to cope with the strains of the unionist revolt if the day comes when 50% + 1 of the people who vote do so in favour of integration with the Republic.

Co-operation, better than another 30 years of warfare from the UDA, UVF and LVF.

No matter how strongly one feels about these things deep down in the heart, the head must sometimes rule and in this case the head knows the pocket won't like this outcome and is against it.

So being a member of a Republican Party; I'm all for giving the approx 2 million people in Northern Ireland a republic all of their very own

Look republicanism up in a dictionary and see how far you get!!

fly_agaric wrote:

Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

This I don't have a problem with as an all-island economy is beneficial to both jurisdictions

edit: spelling

K-9

There does seem to be an element in any United Ireland debate of:

Well they ignored our beliefs/civil rights for 70/80 years. So lets show them how we've learned from that. Lets ignore another minorities beliefs/civil rights.

We've learned from 800 years of oppression.

If a majority of NI wants to be part of UK in some way we have to respect that. They are a minority on this island. Minorities have been disrespected too long on this island.

OS119

purplengold wrote:

Some people on here seem to think that it will be only a matter of changing currency and the colour of our post boxes and hey! It’s a united Ireland folks! It won’t happen for many many years. Never forget, a sizable portion of the protestant population of Northern Ireland despise the people of the republic. They hate Catholics, period, and will never be persuaded that this is now a secular state.

if it was to change at 50%+1 then it would be a disaster of monumental proportions.

it needs to wait until you've got 75% approval and 90% of the 'opposed' saying "its not what i want but i respect the majority decision.." the tiny minority left will have to be policed and guarded against. the way to get to that stage is to have freeflowing co-operation between the states to such an extent that the change hardly has any effect on everyday life, the way you do that is to have longstanding - and effective - systems that allow citizens of either state to access similar services both sides of the border, so if you happen to live in NI but its 25 minutes drive to an NI High School but only 5 munites drive to an RoI high school then you go to the nearest with no hassle, very similar curricula and equally valid qualifications, likewise if you live in Raphoe and your nearest doctor is in Strabane then you go to Strabane with no dramas.

one other, easy area for co-operation is Search and Rescue: in RoI the SAR sercive has already been privatised whereas in the UK it will be privatised in 5 years when the RAF and RN SeaKings are due to retire. getting the ROI and NI governments to agree on a single SAR contract for all-Ireland and all Irish/UK waters around NI should be fairly simple. something similar regarding air ambulances should be even easier.

on the somewhat less rosey side is the issue of policing and military support: in the mid-Seventies when some 35% of the population of NI were opposed to the status quo, and only some 5 - 8% of the population prepared to support the use of violence to change that status quo, yet to maintain what passed for 'order' on those days required a police force of some 8,500 full-time and 5,000 reserve officers and regular military support of 20,000 plus eleven battalions of UDR. maintaining 20,000 regular troops in NI required having some 60,000 set aside for that task alone (20k there, 20k training to go, and 20k recouperating from being there).

RoI currently has 10,000 troops, meaning it could perhaps put 3,000 on the ground permamently and maybe 6,000 for a short-time in the most dire emergency, meanwhile PSNI numbers have dropped from a total of 13,000 to 8,500 and GS has a force of only some 13,000. the UDR/RIR home service units have all been disbanded.

a UI will be in no position to maintain order, let alone enforce it, should a significant minority - and we know from history how small a significant minority can be - are prepared to use violence. this doesn't have to be PIRA scale violence, this can just be good old fashioned rioting.

wait till everyone over the age of 30 has died off, use similar health and education systems for a few decades and have party politcs based on economic and social issues rather than the 'national question'. then it will seem like the most natural thing in the world...

marco murphy

flogen wrote:

You're seriously showing me random pictures of marching bands in an attempt to prove that they were carrying signs glorifying the murder of Catholics during the Love Ulster parade?

And for fear of being obtuse, those two examples linked don't even equate to the suggestion you were making - that they had signs "glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there". Plenty of Orange marches are sickeningly sectarian, and plenty of the marchers took part in the Love Ulster parade, but you've added 1 + 1 and gotten 3.

The very same banners were present at the Love Ulster parade.

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

The very same banners were present at the Love Ulster parade.

Not that I've seen or am aware of - there were plenty of pictures taken during that day and yet they all seem to have vanished. How odd.

Adyx

Even if Scotland gains independence, the break up of the Union isn't necessarily going to happen. UK = United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland. Great Britain = England, Scotland & Wales. Even if Scotland leaves, that still leaves the UK of Britain & Northern Ireland. If you want to get technical, the only way to break up the UK is for either NI to leave or the whole of Britain to leave. Either way you're left with an independent NI.

Mucco

What's the advantage for people in the republic to vote for a united Ireland?

fly_agaric

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm sure the DUP/UUP didn't shout about NI contributing towards the UK subvention to the EC in the 80's/90's, thus providing funds to the Good People of the 23 Counties.

Surely NI must have itself been a net recipient of UK tax money most of that time? (it certainly is at present)
Even if that were not the case I have other issues with the whole "we are just paying back the money we got from the UK via Brussels so its just making things even really" argument.

Adyx wrote:

Even if Scotland leaves, that still leaves the UK of Britain & Northern Ireland.

We could call it the partially United Kingdom of some of Great Britain and a corner of Ireland...

marco murphy

Lol recognition of Wales has finally ceased.

Zambia

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

marco murphy

Zambia232 wrote:

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

They will have nothing to give out about if the people decide unity is what they want. However, if that small group of people against it remains, I think they could get used to the idea. Jackie McDonald for instance said he could get used to it provided nationalists (SF) played the game

It's simply going to take a while to build trust.

darkman2

Zambia232 wrote:

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

No one is talking about forcing anybody into anything. However if your suggesting we dont have the means to assemble a military and police force capable of dealing with potential trouble in a United Ireland well IMO thats just wrong. The size of the army here can double with an extra 1 billion Euro per year to approximately just over 50,000 full time and reservists. It should be that level anyway but thats for another forum. If nessacary im sure the funding is there to go much further then that - only if its needed. The present army (full time) is, despite popular belief, now getting very well equipped.

In terms of the Gardai - that would also really have to at least double in size to, once again, where it should be anyway. Unless something drastic happens the economy in the near future this is well affordable if absolutely nessacary. Thats the trappings of a working economy.

It also must be noted that alot of the British army's problems in the North were actually self inflicted in the early 70's (The book 'A History of the IRA' is a good read about that). I somehow doubt we would quite make the same mistakes. Also the British army had to deal with both Republicans and Loyalists.

Zambia

Poblachtach wrote:

They will have nothing to give out about if the people decide unity is what they want.

It's simply going to take a while to build trust.

You went on those chat sites do you think the will of the majority will change there mind.

Did the will of the majority of N.I change the PIRA's mind, it all depends on your iont of view.

I agree with you on the trust thing , but we will be very old to see that.

Ulster9

I think first of all peoples perceptions need to change regarding what a United Ireland would be like.
Personnally I would be of the view that political autonomy would have to remain in Stormont in a United Ireland.A constitution would need to be reviewed to include recognition of the British/Unionist heritage in Ireland.
I think a new flag and anthem would be necessary to give all traditions a sense of ownership of the Irish identity.The tricolour and anthem have failed to be unifying symbols of Ireland, time to look again.Consider a green flag with the shamrock and/or maybe the harp.Unionists generally look favourably on the green flag and shamrock as a neutral symbol that both sides can identify with.Just like in Ulster both sides favour the Red Hand.
Some people are assuming that independence for Scotland is a certainty, I beg to differ here.I would be glad to see Scottish independence but i think when it comes to an actual vote many Scots will be cautious and shy away from independence for a while yet.
Irish unity i suspect will happen along similar lines to the integration of the EU, while many Unionists become comfortable with powersharing and North-South co-operation i believe London will become less of a factor in everyday politics and providing the all-Ireland economy continues to grow i think unionist will begin to look increasingly to Dublin and not London as long as the mutual respect is maintain through the evolving political system.

LordSutch

Firstly, if Scotland leaves the UK then the term Britain & Northern Ireland will cease to exist ~ seeing as Britain is an island (which includes Scotland irrespective of their Political position).

So you would have the United Kingdom of (England, N.Ireland & Wales) the term 'Britain' being obsolete unless used in a Geographical context.

Somebody also raised the question "What benefit would a United Ireland bring to the South"? Answer "No benefit what-so-ever if a sizeable proportion of the people up-North do not want to join with the South" > they are British, their flag is the British flag, they sing God Save the Queen, they like their Red Post Boxes, they rely on their NHS, they see Britain as the mainland, they are also culturally 'British' and are simply 'a different people' from the Irish Nationalist people on this island (in my opinion).

Zambia

Good post Ulster9 , I think i always considered a straight forward engulfing of the North into the South. Maybe if we considered what a united Ireland might be more than what we think it has to be

A new Irish Flag ...theres an idea

I like the big green flag Idea.

Oh and a United Ireland couldnt be neutral it would have to be at least allied to the rest of the UK.