Counting the main pot.

jacQues

In what situations would a dealer count the chips in the main pot and let the players know the exact amount of chips theirin? (upon request of a player)

Is there a difference between cash and tournament play for this?

Is there a difference between limit / pot limit / no limit play for this?

My assumption has always been that this is normal in pot limit and not going to happen in no limit, as this is how it was explained to me by a professional dealer some time ago. But that was challenged yesterday in our home game...

jacQues

5starpool

I have heard it said both ways. In Pot limit, the dealer should always tell you when you ask I think. In no limit it depends on the dealer. Usually they will tell you, in Ireland at least, but I have come across dealers who will just spread the pot and tell you they can't tell you the amount. It doesn't particularly bother me as I have a good head for counting chips anyways generally.

Mellor

i always count as I go, or if not i just recount the action in my head, easier than counting the pile of colours

Ollieboy

I have seen and been told that the dealer cannot count the pot in a tourney. The best example of this was a the WSOP when a player ask for a count of a big pot, the dealer refused, he ask for the Tournament Director who agreed. A few hours later, someone else asks and the dealer did it. I asked the TD after and he told me the dealer cant count as its information there provided that could be incorrect etc, but they are allow to spread the bot and even stack it, but not give a figure to whats actually in it.

As far as I know its different for pot limit and cash.

pok3rplaya

just click bet pot

Hyzepher

This brings up the old discussion as to how relevant Pot Odds are in tournament play. I always cringe when I hear people saying that they had to call as they were getting pot odds or that they had committed their stack. I understand that crippling your stack makes it very hard to play going forward - but to call and potentially go out of a tournament simply because of pot odds is a bit naive - especially if you feel you are behind.

hyzepher

5starpool

That is all very dependent of when you are considering your decision. If it is preflop and you are comfortable then it should be purely pot odds, and would be incorrect I think to fold if getting 2/1 or better no matter what cards you have.

If it is on the flop then it is a bit trickier, but again, odds play a big part, as well as your current stack and how much you will have elft after. Doing this on the river when you are sure you are beat, but 'just getting a good price' is a different matter though.

Hyzepher

I hear you but in reality no one really knows what odds they are getting as they cant see the opponents cards. My issue is with putting your tournament on the line simply because you feel you have to call BECAUSE of the odds. I bet people's opinion may change if they were close to the bubble.

Ollieboy

Hyzepher wrote:

This brings up the old discussion as to how relevant Pot Odds are in tournament play. I always cringe when I hear people saying that they had to call as they were getting pot odds or that they had committed their stack. I understand that crippling your stack makes it very hard to play going forward - but to call and potentially go out of a tournament simply because of pot odds is a bit naive - especially if you feel you are behind.

hyzepher

cough cough, been saying this for ages and nobody understood it or aggreed. Poker is a game of skill and some luck, but odds is a terrible reason sometimes to risk your tourney, but I understand peoples point in relation to odds....lol

Ollieboy

5starpool wrote:

That is all very dependent of when you are considering your decision. If it is preflop and you are comfortable then it should be purely pot odds, and would be incorrect I think to fold if getting 2/1 or better no matter what cards you have.

If it is on the flop then it is a bit trickier, but again, odds play a big part, as well as your current stack and how much you will have elft after. Doing this on the river when you are sure you are beat, but 'just getting a good price' is a different matter though.

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?

Call for odds or realise you have a muck hand and wait for a better opportunity.

Maybe everyone should back horse at long odds too.

Sorry about the moan, its just one of my pet hates too.

5starpool

Ollieboy wrote:

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?

Call for odds or realise you have a muck hand and wait for a better opportunity.

Maybe everyone should back horse at long odds too.

Sorry about the moan, its just one of my pet hates too.

You know this is not the situation I am talking about, so don't go talking all extreme rubbish.

If you are in the BB for 400, and everyone folds and SB goes all in for 700 would you still fold 72o if you have a stack of 10k?

What about if you have JsQs and the flop comes 2s8c9s and someone goes all in for a pot size bet but you are very sure they have AA or KK? Do you call then?

You know I am not saying call with any rubbish everytime there is remotely attactive odds, and if you think I am saying that then your deductive reasoning chip needs mending.

hotspur

Ollieboy wrote:

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?
Call for odds or realise you have a muck hand and wait for a better opportunity.
.

What are the odds of winning with 27o versus 8 other hands? Are you sure you are getting great odds?

Ollieboy wrote:

odds is a terrible reason sometimes to risk your tourney

SOmeone's gonna get a banning responding to that doozy

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?
Call for odds or realise you have a muck hand and wait for a better opportunity.
.


odds is a terrible reason sometimes to risk your tourney

no offence, but what a load of rubbish.

Hyzepher

I think Ollieboy's example is extreme - although I dont think I know him so I could be wrong;) However, the point is at what point is survival a lesser priority than calling because of pot odds?

Tournament play is mostly about survival - at least until you have reached your goal and then maybe the structure dictates your actions more than the blind followings of pot odds.

sikes

Ollieboy wrote:

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?

Call for odds or realise you have a muck hand and wait for a better opportunity.

Maybe everyone should back horse at long odds too.

Sorry about the moan, its just one of my pet hates too.

You cant be serious, can you? You dont think about the odds in isolation, people think about the odds comarped to their chance of winning. Your example isnt detailed enough to give you an answer, if its a regular stt, we should fold, if its a winner take all shootout, we do have to start calling with crap, depending on our perceived edge and structure.

You make plays that have long odds becuase you have an edge playnig them and you will win.

Also i would never moan about a fish compaining he was pot committed and calling with A high, its free information.

5starpool

Hyzepher wrote:

I think Ollieboy's example is extreme - although I dont think I know him so I could be wrong;) However, the point is at what point is survival a lesser priority than calling because of pot odds?

Tournament play is mostly about survival - at least until you have reached your goal and then maybe the structure dictates your actions more than the blind followings of pot odds.

I think there was a somewhat interesting discussion a while back about tournament life, which is I think what you are referring to here.

Also, when you are considering whether you are getting a good price you also have to assign likely holdings to your opponent and factor this in. Blindly calling with a draw when a little thinking will tell you that you are drawing dead is obviously stupid, but considering all information, of which one part is pot odds, is the correct way to play, and I believe the correct way to play is more important than your tournament life in general, as there is always another tournament, but making the correct decision, no matter how it turns out should always be the priority, whether that means call/fold or whatever.

Hectorjelly

and all of a sudden, boards just took a huge step backwards

gerry87

Should the dealer announce the amount a person bets?

In the IO someone raised and i didnt announce it, someone didnt see the raise and called, then called the TD over and got his chips back.

Later on, i was anouncing Raise and a player snapped at me, "Are you going to count it or not?!" so i started announcing "Raise 1,200" etc. Then someone started complaining saying i should only say how much if i'm asked.

Which is it?

Hyzepher

Hectorjelly wrote:

and all of a sudden, boards just took a huge step backwards

backwards because I challenge the idea of blindy following pot odds or backwards becasue I'm back posting;)

Hectorjelly

backwards because I thought we had gone past these discussions.

You cant ignore pot odds, its always half of every hand. Both your and ollys arguments show that you dont really understand what it is you are disparaging.

Hyzepher

Hectorjelly wrote:

You cant ignore pot odds, its always half of every hand. Both your and ollys arguments show that you dont really understand what it is you are disparaging.

You make a big assumption there.

Hectorjelly

Its no assumption, unless this is an elaborate ruse! im not trying to argue here, I just honestly think both you and olly have a totally mistaken idea of what exactly pot odds are and what they mean when you are playing. The idea that you should call with 72o after 6 all ins due to pot odds shows that you dont know what your talking about. In that case, you are being offered attractive odds but your chance of winning the pot is substantially worse than what you need to make the call.

Mellor

Ollieboy wrote:

simple example, your on the button with 2 7 os in the very 1st hand, the 8 or 9 players go allin in front of you, your getting great odds to call, what do you do?

Lol, you getting terrible odds.
Even 10 handed, and on the BB its 9/1. You need to with here 10% to break even, 72o isn't 10% of anywere near that number, so the odds make it a clear fold.

Maybe everyone should back horse at long odds too.

Long Horses are long for a reason. They have little chance to win, and their chances of winning are less than their odds, this is how a bookie makes money.

Calling because you have odds means that your chances of winning are greater than the pot odds. This has to be applied correctly. Not just throwing chips into the pot everytime you get "odds"

opr

When you make a call due to pot odds it generally cause in the long term it will be +EV as HJ and Sikes point out calling in that ridiculous example of the 7,2 is never going to be +EV

Opr

Hyzepher

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its no assumption, unless this is an elaborate ruse! im not trying to argue here, I just honestly think both you and olly have a totally mistaken idea of what exactly pot odds are and what they mean when you are playing. The idea that you should call with 72o after 6 all ins due to pot odds shows that you dont know what your talking about. In that case, you are being offered attractive odds but your chance of winning the pot is substantially worse than what you need to make the call.

I can tell you that I understand pot odds - I agreee that Ollieboy's example is a bit extreme and not exactly what I was talking about. I am not saying that pot odds dont have their place, I just question whether they should be used blindly when the alternative is tournamnt exit.


Now if you would like to give a definition of POt Odds and their use I might be able to educate you to waht I mean.

Ollieboy

sorry, I'll back track here a little. I dont think odds are a reason to call and I think people use this reason for making poor calls. I did it a couple of weeks ago and went bust early when I should have really fold each time, but I use odds instead of my head and heart.

Most players on this site can use odds correctly and understand when odds should be used and thats not the players I'm picking on, so dont take the above comment like that, its the poor players that read about odds and think they use them to play poker all the time. Also, if you take Jeff's example in the earlier thread today, that player should have fold, but maybe he thought he could be up against AK/Aq etc and felt he should push instead of studing the player and making a reasonable guess that he was miles behind preflop and fold correctly.

I'm not getting at odds in general and they have a big part in the game and my example is rubbish, but I try to use odds when later in the game more than early in the game, or just calling preflop with small pairs because of the implied odds. And again, playing cash the odds are far more important. Darragh I know you understand odds perfectly well and so do I most of the time, but some players here and online think they understand odds, I loss a very big hand recently when I reraise a player all in and he called because he felt he was getting odds, even do I told him he had 3 outs at best, he managed to hit one of those outs.

I'm happy to call for odds anyday.

maybe someone should post the hand devilfish went out on, when he called preflop for his whole tourney knowing he was miles behind, but because he raise so much he was committed.

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

I dont think odds are a reason to call

what??? they clearly are.

I'm not getting at odds in general and they have a big part in the game and my example is rubbish, but I try to use odds when later in the game more than early in the game, or just calling preflop with small pairs because of the implied odds. And again, playing cash the odds are far more important. Darragh I know you understand odds perfectly well and so do I most of the time, but some players here and online think they understand odds,

this makes no sense. i think you kinda are showing you don't "understand odds perfectly well"

I loss a very big hand recently when I reraise a player all in and he called because he felt he was getting odds, even do I told him he had 3 outs at best, he managed to hit one of those outs.

if he was getting the odds to hit his 3outs then it was fine.

maybe someone should post the hand devilfish went out on, when he called preflop for his whole tourney knowing he was miles behind, but because he raise so much he was committed.

if he folded there it would have been really bad, if the guy showed him the kings he still has to call.

Hyzepher

phantom_lord wrote:

if he was getting the odds to hit his 3 outs then it was fine.

Why is that fine - he still has only 3 outs to keep himself in the tournament. The size of the pot wont change that.

phantom_lord wrote:

if folded there it would have been really bad, if the guy showed him the kings he still has to call.

Why does he still have to call? Why should he put his tournament on the line for a very short race just because he got caught on a steal?

phantom_lord

Hyzepher wrote:

Why is that fine - he still has only 3 outs to keep himself in the tournament. The size of the pot wont change that.

cause it's +ev?

Why does he still have to call? Why should he put his tournament on the line for a very short race just because he got caught on a steal?

because he was getting more than 3/1 or something, which is more than the odds he needs to call.

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

what??? they clearly are.



this makes no sense. i think you kinda are showing you don't "understand odds perfectly well"

if he was getting the odds to hit his 3outs then it was fine.


if he folded there it would have been really bad, if the guy showed him the kings he still has to call.

this is kind of my point, odds are part of the game, not the whole game.

also to say I dont understand odds with everything I won is a incorrect statement on your part, I probaly understand odds and when to use them a lot better than you mate.

Anyway, I dont want to high-jack the thread on this issue and I know my example and above post was incorrectly stated and badly posted. I dont have a problem with odds, its when player use them for excuses to make bad calls.

In the Devilfish example he call because of odds and the stack sizes in relation to blinds etc, his reraise preflop caused the problem that he had to call, but he could have fold and use his chips to push from the button in the next hand and wait for a hand to get a double up, if he felt the guy had AA should he still call?

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

this is kind of my point, odds are part of the game, not the whole game.

the game is almost purely about odds/ev

Hyzepher

phantom_lord wrote:

cause it's +ev?

ok - lets see where this goes. Explain +ev and why it's important in a tournament situation.

opr

Ollieboy wrote:

also to say I dont understand odds with everything I won is a incorrect statement on your part, I probaly understand odds and when to use them a lot better than you mate.

But you have clearly demonstrated in this thread a fundamental lack of basic knowledge about how odds work in relation to poker and clearly don't know were to apply them.

Opr

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

also to say I dont understand odds with everything I won is a incorrect statement on your part, I probaly understand odds and when to use them a lot better than you mate.

lol, you've cleary shown u don't.

I dont have a problem with odds, its when player use them for excuses to make bad calls.

? can u give an example or something? do you mean if I call ur shove with ajo getting say 4/1, and you've ak and I spike a j, I've made a bad call?

Hyzepher

I think if some of you try and demonstrate your knowledge of pot odds in a tournament situation, you might see a different point of view

phantom_lord

Hyzepher wrote:

ok - lets see where this goes. Explain +ev and why it's important in a tournament situation.

ok, it's when a situation is profitable. I can't see how it's not important in a tournament situation

u don't win chips by being involved in losing situations, or by passing up edges.

Hyzepher

phantom_lord wrote:

ok, it's when a situation is profitible. I can't see how it's not important in a tournament situation

u don't win chips by being involved in losing situations, or by passing up edges.

So explain how putting all your chips in the middle when you are the worst of it a "profitable" situation.

Ollieboy

All I'm saying is I respect tourney life more than calling because I've raise preflop with a weak hand and now I feel I've got to call because I've got the odds when I'm sure I'll be out of the game when its over. If you cant understand this point than fine, but dont be insulting and grow up a little.

To support this point all I can do is rely on my results. I dont like going out in a tournament because a good player as given me the correct odds to call when he's miles ahead. This is why good players win more because they know how to use the odds to make players like you call.

Discussion over.

phantom_lord

Hyzepher wrote:

So explain how putting all your chips in the middle when you are the worst of it a "profitable" situation.

betting $10 on heads or tales at 1/1 is neutral ev.
get 5/4 and it's +ev

betting $10 on "a" to win a race getting 2/1 when "b" is twice as likely to win is neutral ev.
get 5/2 and betting on "a" is +ev


getting 4/1 on your $10 with TT all in against AA is neutral.
get 5/1 and it becomes +ev.


run it 5 times, 4/5 you lose $10, the 1/5 you win $50, for a net profit of $10

so it has a positive expectation!

I'll put my money in a million times getting the worst of it with TT against your AA if you give me 5/1!

Mellor

Ollieboy wrote:

I'm not getting at odds in general and they have a big part in the game and my example is rubbish, but I try to use odds when later in the game more than early in the game, or just calling preflop with small pairs because of the implied odds. And again, playing cash the odds are far more important.

I think understand were ollie is coming from. (finally).
Odds are important, and they dicate weither a call is profitable or not. You came accross a little like you were dismissing odds altogether.
"It sounded like you were saying calling behind when given odds is wrong"
I now believe this is not your point.

In the late stages of a tourney (could be bubble or final table, just before it gets crapshooty) If given the correct odds or a draw, (or hand), it is 100% correct to call.
This is a situation where you need to make up chips soon and fast, and this call is correct for the odds.

But calling only because you have odds, where you dont necessarily need to make up chips now, is wrong. I know you always need to make up chips, but its the urgency that plays a factor. An example would be in the first level, you dont need to make up chips right now, but rather over the course of the next few hours.

First handa deepstack live tourney, you are happy with your table and believe you are possible the best at the table
5 limpers, you hold AK in the SB and make a raise to thin the field.
The BB pushes
Its folded around to you in the BB.
You are 100% that the player has a hand. Lets say that he has a PP. Lets also say that he hasn't got AA or KK (as they are les likely due to your holding, and you believe he would play them slower).
Its AKs vrs PP.
Its a coin flip, there is extra chips in the pot so the pot odds make it a clear call.
Putting your tourney at risk at this stage is wrong. You have no need to double up immediately. It is +EV to call. But half the time you are going home. You have a better chances of making money if you fold.

I just thought of a way to show this. Bare with me it might not make sense.
If you call here you have a 50% chance of doubling up, and will be in a good spot. If you fold, you are pretty much still average stacked.
There are 50 players in the game.
Average stacked you feel your chances of winning are 40/1
If you double up now, you will be in a better position, and your chances are about 30/1
first prize is 15,000


Call--Win--50%--(30/1)--€500.........(1/30*15,000)
Call--Lose--50%--(0/1)--€0
Fold--N/a--100%--(40/1)--€375

The total value of folding is €1,000
The total value of calling €750, as you are in a better position half the time.
This stands true if by doubling up you dont double your chances or winning. They improve but don't double at this stage


In a cash game, its a call. as staying in makes no difference


Calling when you need chips and the pot odds are +EV is correct
Calling ONLY because the pot odds are +EV is wrong

phantom_lord

Ollieboy wrote:

All I'm saying is I respect tourney life more than calling because I've raise preflop with a weak hand and now I feel I've got to call because I've got the odds when I'm sure I'll be out of the game when its over. If you cant understand this point than fine, but dont be insulting and grow up a little.

It's not that I don't understand your point, it's that your point is incorrect.

This is why good players win more because they know how to use the odds to make players like you call.

no, good players win more because they recognise profitable situations. and have a good fundamental knowledge of poker.

opr

I think alot of what is being said is that bad players justify bad calls by saying they had big odds.

The example that was given were the guy called looking for 3 outs cause he said he big odds. No one is saying that just because you have big odds to make the call you should call the odds need to be big enough to justify the call that in the long term it will be +EV.

Odds are only a reason to call when they are the correct odds in relation to the situation.

Opr

opr

Hyzepher wrote:

So explain how putting all your chips in the middle when you are the worst of it a "profitable" situation.

8 people at a table go all in before you and you look down at AA against 8 other random hands we are going to lose a large percentage of the time even though in this situation we are putting it in with the best of it so should we fold ?

Opr

sikes

I dont think Ollie has got his point across correctly. But I also think that he may be overestimating how much of an edge he can pass up in a tournament. Im pretty sure we talked about this yesterday in a thread.

Anyway, i think his point is that he can pass up a small edge early in a tournament becuase he can gain greater edges later on due to perceived difference in skill.

Ollieboy

Mellor wrote:

I think understand were ollie is coming from. (finally).
Odds are important, and they dicate weither a call is profitable or not. You came accross a little like you were dismissing odds altogether.
"It sounded like you were saying calling behind when given odds is wrong"
I now believe this is not your point.

In the late stages of a tourney (could be bubble or final table, just before it gets crapshooty) If given the correct odds or a draw, (or hand), it is 100% correct to call.
This is a situation where you need to make up chips soon and fast, and this call is correct for the odds.

But calling only because you have odds, where you dont necessarily need to make up chips now, is wrong. I know you always need to make up chips, but its the urgency that plays a factor. An example would be in the first level, you dont need to make up chips right now, but rather over the course of the next few hours.

First handa deepstack live tourney, you are happy with your table and believe you are possible the best at the table
5 limpers, you hold AK in the SB and make a raise to thin the field.
The BB pushes
Its folded around to you in the BB.
You are 100% that the player has a hand. Lets say that he has a PP. Lets also say that he hasn't got AA or KK (as they are les likely due to your holding, and you believe he would play them slower).
Its AKs vrs PP.
Its a coin flip, there is extra chips in the pot so the pot odds make it a clear call.
Putting your tourney at risk at this stage is wrong. You have no need to double up immediately. It is +EV to call. But half the time you are going home. You have a better chances of making money if you fold.

I just thought of a way to show this. Bare with me it might not make sense.
If you call here you have a 50% chance of doubling up, and will be in a good spot. If you fold, you are pretty much still average stacked.
There are 50 players in the game.
Average stacked you feel your chances of winning are 15/1
If you double up now, you will be in a better position, and your chances are about 10/1
first prize is 15,000


Call--Win--50%--(10/1)--€1,500.........(1/10*15,000)
Call--Lose--50%--(0/1)--€0
Fold--N/a--100%--(15/1)--€1,000

The total value of folding is €1,000
The total value of calling €750, as you are in a better position half the time.
This stands true if by doubling up you dont double your chances or winning. They improve but don't double at this stage


In a cash game, its a call. as staying in makes no difference


Calling when you need chips and the pot odds are +EV is correct
Calling ONLY because the pot odds are +EV is wrong

very well put, sorry I cant explain it as well as you. Maybe I wouldn't get myself into these arguements..lol

Ollieboy

phantom_lord wrote:

It's not that I don't understand your point, it's that your point is incorrect.




no, good players win more because they recognise profitable situations. and have a good fundamental knowledge of poker.

I'm trying to make the point that good players know how to make average players call in losing situation because they give them the correct odds, because they have good reads on these players and they know where they are in the hand. If a player gives you the correct odds to call and hes a top pro, you should be worried as this means your drawing very thin.

This is when its incorrect to call because of odds.

And nobody's view is incorrect mate, you can this agree with it. Thats very arrogant

Ollieboy

.

opr

Ollieboy wrote:

I'm trying to make the point that good players know how to make average players call in losing situation because they give them the correct odds, because they have good reads on these players and they know where they are in the hand. If a player gives you the correct odds to call and hes a top pro, you should be worried as this means your drawing very thin.

This is when its incorrect to call because of odds.

You see this is one of the main points i don't understand that your trying to get across. How can a situtaion be unprofitable if you are getting the correct odds ?

Surely good player give incorrect odds and bad players call which is what makes us all profit

Opr

sikes

Ollieboy wrote:

I'm trying to make the point that good players know how to make average players call in losing situation because they give them the correct odds, because they have good reads on these players and they know where they are in the hand. If a player gives you the correct odds to call and hes a top pro, you should be worried as this means your drawing very thin.

But in that situation you have to be giving them the wrong odds for it to be correct for you to play the hand that way. Giving them the correct odds means you are making the mistake and will lose chips playing the hand that way in the long run.

Ollieboy

opr wrote:

You see this is one of the main points i don't understand that your trying to get across. How can a situtaion be unprofitable if you are getting the correct odds ?

Surely good player give incorrect odds and bad players call which is what makes us all profit

Opr

Point been you could be miscalculating you odds here and have less outs than you think. Also, if your raise preflop and get reraise, but get and feel and are given the correct odds to see the flop, your than also force to bet or play after the flop, because of the amount you have already put in the pot, again this is properly a bad example and explained totally wrong, hence the reason I'm goin to shut up..lol

opr

Ollieboy wrote:

Point been you could be miscalculating you odds here and have less outs than you think.

But it this case you are getting the incorrect odds to call thats why it is unprofitable. Odds are only a reason to call if they are correct.

That is why i highlighted the example you gave of the guy with the 3 outs. No one is saying here that just because you have big odds to call that you should they have to be the correct odds to make it +EV in the long term.

Ollieboy wrote:

Also, if your raise preflop and get reraise, but get and feel and are given the correct odds to see the flop, your than also force to bet or play after the flop, because of the amount you have already put in the pot, again this is properly a bad example and explained totally wrong, hence the reason I'm goin to shut up..lol

I would like to see and example of what you mean.

Opr