Dangerous Driving

little lady

Is it just me or do others think that people on the roads don’t understand or don’t want to understand the dangers of driving. I heard on the news this morning that a 24 year old was killed in a single vehicle accident, which to me says drinking, or speeding or both. I know something else could have happened but more than likely not.

Why do people blatantly ignore the dangers of the road, no one is asking them to drive at a snails pace but just to slow down a bit and take care, for their own sake and the sake of others

dr.bollocko

Why do people blatantly ignore the dangers of not just posting a goddamn thread where it belongs?
RANTY RANT RANT!

seamus

By and large, the vast majority of young people die on the roads because of a combination of inexperience and overconfidence. The overconfidence causes them to drive outside of their abilities, and the inexperience means that they fail to properly deal with the consequences of their overconfidence.

Young people will always die in greater numbers on the roads. This is an immutable fact the world over. All we can do is try and minimise that number.

You can't teach people the dangers of the road. This is something which can only be learned by experience. All we can do is prepare new drivers as best we can to deal with a new danger when they experience it on the road. We don't do this at present.

I don't believe that trying to send a "slow down" message will make a massive difference to deaths on regional roads. In most accidents, speed is a factor, which basically means that if the driver was going more slowly, it may not have happened. But that's obvious. It doesn't mean that the driver was breaking the speed limit when they crashed. It takes experience to learn that although the sign says 100km/h, that doesn't mean you will be able to control your vehicle on the road at 100km/h.

zuutroy

done to death.....

cournioni

Slow drivers are just as dangerous.

Wishbone Ash

little lady wrote:

a 24 year old was killed in a single vehicle accident, which to me says drinking, or speeding or both

Suicide is increasingly believed to be a cause of many single vehicle accidents involving young men.

zuutroy wrote:

done to death.....

Yup. Lock it up.

Mitch Connor

seamus wrote:

Young people will always die in greater numbers on the roads. This is an immutable fact the world over. All we can do is try and minimise that number.

according to the statistics, people around 30yo are more likely to die in a car crash then people around 20.

little lady

I do apologise for both posting in the wrong forum and for posting something that has been discussed several times before.

I just think it is such a waste of life for no good reason.

Be my guest to close the thread if you wish.

zuutroy

Tauren wrote:

according to the statistics, people around 30yo are more likely to die in a car crash then people around 20.

What statistics are these? Sounds odd.

What you never hear is that road safety IS improving dramatically. Since the 70's the number of road death per year is almost halved despite the number of km's driven skyrocketing, and that we have the 7th or so best record in the EU.

gyppo

Tauren wrote:

according to the statistics, people around 30yo are more likely to die in a car crash then people around 20.

Have you a source for this? - I'd like to see it.

Mitch Connor

gyppo wrote:

Have you a source for this? - I'd like to see it.

my info is from the a road stats report issued by the government - although i do admit it is a few years old at this point. I linked it in another thread a while back. I'll have anoher look for it now, but it could take a while!

Mitch Connor

Tauren wrote:

my info is from the a road stats report issued by the government - although i do admit it is a few years old at this point. I linked it in another thread a while back. I'll have anoher look for it now, but it could take a while!

found it: http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf

On page 22, it lists accidents and death by age group.

Looking at it again though, i am wrong. 25-34 age group is the largest percentage of injuries and deaths (26.3%) - but if you combine the 18-20 and 20-24 age groups, while the overall percentage of involvement is lower (20.8%) the number of deaths is higher (35 compared to 27)

Also, it should be pointed out that the 25-34 age group takes in 10 years of drivers, while 18-24 on accounts for 7, which could also account for the difference in overall percentage.

Sorry for giving false information, I had incorrectly 'remembered' what i had read previously. At least i still pointed it out though!

peasant

zuutroy wrote:

What you never hear is that road safety IS improving dramatically. Since the 70's the number of road death per year is almost halved despite the number of km's driven skyrocketing, and that we have the 7th or so best record in the EU.

It could be so much better though:
- the provisional driving licence is a joke
- driver training is sub-standard
- instructor training is non existant
- road infrastructure is sub standard
- speed limits are haphazard and rarely safety related
- accident investigation is pretty much non-existant

....and the list goes on.

zuutroy

peasant wrote:

It could be so much better though:
- the provisional driving licence is a joke
- driver training is sub-standard
- instructor training is non existant
- road infrastructure is sub standard
- speed limits are haphazard and rarely safety related
- accident investigation is pretty much non-existant

....and the list goes on.

All true....but we were the Eastern Europe in terms of infrastructure and economy 20 years ago. They're coming around (albeit slowly).

peasant

When I said road infrastructure, I don't actually mean build more stretches of new, tolled motorways (well, some of that as well) but fill the potholes, put up proper signposts, maintain the white markings and cats eyes, keep the drains clear ....basic stuff like that.

gyppo

Tauren wrote:

Sorry for giving false information, I had incorrectly 'remembered' what i had read previously. At least i still pointed it out though!

No problem, thanks for the link anyway.

Anan1

Tauren wrote:

25-34 age group is the largest percentage of injuries and deaths (26.3%) - but if you combine the 18-20 and 20-24 age groups, while the overall percentage of involvement is lower (20.8%) the number of deaths is higher (35 compared to 27)

Also, it should be pointed out that the 25-34 age group takes in 10 years of drivers, while 18-24 on accounts for 7, which could also account for the difference in overall percentage.

You also need to remember that there are far more drivers out there in the 25-34 age group than in the 18-20 and 20-24 groupings. This is presumably why no 0-9 year olds died while driving cars.;)

unkel

Tauren wrote:

At least i still pointed it out though!

Indeed you did, thanks for sharing

That table states deaths, it doesn't state cause / blame. I wonder how the deaths stats per age are for single vehicle collisions. My guess is that younger drivers (18-24) are over represented there too. As Wishbone Ash pointed out, there are suicides in these figures as well

Another point to make is that it is quite plausible to presume that the average driver in the 25-34 year group does a higher annual mileage than the average driver in the 18-24 year group

ZiabR

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Slow drivers are just as dangerous.

Agree 100%. Slow drivers freak me... i mean they make people take chances and can cause crashes.

I think that as soon as you become 70 years of age you should have to re-sit your driving test again. Many people on the roads that are just too old and cannot drive.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

While I agree that you have a point about slow drivers, your suggestion against over 70s is absurd. Are you going to break the spirit of an active older person by telling them that they must give up what is probably their greatest means of independance? Rural dwellers would be confined to their homes instead of having their routine of morning mass, or going to town for the daily newspaper. Not all slow drivers are over 70 - far from it.
As for re-sitting their driving tests - there are plenty of 30somethings on the road who would certainly fail if they had to do a re-sit.

GTC

Over 70s cause plenty of accidents, and quite a frightening number of pedestrian deaths are caused by older people with poor reflexes. Anyone who advocates retests for over 70s is spot-on.

Of course, the test would have to be different for them. even if an registered instructor sat with them in the car for 20 minutes and decided they were fit/unfit, that would be better than doing nothing.

randomer

logik wrote:

Agree 100%. Slow drivers freak me... i mean they make people take chances and can cause crashes.

Can you define "slow drivers" for me?

I sometimes drive slowly, but I do not understand how I "make people take changes" and "cause crashes".

For example, if I am driving on a motorway I sometimes drive at between 75km/h and 100km/h. I drive in the left lane. How does this cause a problem?

ZiabR

randomer wrote:

Can you define "slow drivers" for me?

I sometimes drive slowly, but I do not understand how I "make people take changes" and "cause crashes".

For example, if I am driving on a motorway I sometimes drive at between 75km/h and 100km/h. I drive in the left lane. How does this cause a problem?

I am not talking about motorways, or roads with two lanes. There is no problem with these. My issue is with other roads where the limit is 100km or 80km and people are doing 70-50km respectivly. They seem totally oblivious to there surroundings and the fact that there is 5-10 cars stuck behind them.

ZiabR

Zayd Jolly Grater wrote:

While I agree that you have a point about slow drivers, your suggestion against over 70s is absurd. Are you going to break the spirit of an active older person by telling them that they must give up what is probably their greatest means of independance? Rural dwellers would be confined to their homes instead of having their routine of morning mass, or going to town for the daily newspaper. Not all slow drivers are over 70 - far from it.
As for re-sitting their driving tests - there are plenty of 30somethings on the road who would certainly fail if they had to do a re-sit.

Yes that is true, but my point was not so much that they drive slow, more the fact that there reflexes become slower and they have hearing, vision and also arthritis problems "not saying all do". These are major problems and yes they can cause crashes.

randomer

logik wrote:

I am not talking about motorways, or roads with two lanes. There is no problem with these. My issue is with other roads where the limit is 100km or 80km and people are doing 70-50km respectivly. They seem totally oblivious to there surroundings and the fact that there is 5-10 cars stuck behind them.

On single lane roads, I often drive below the statutory limit, depending on the conditions and circumstances. Remember the speed limit is that - A limit, not a target.

ZiabR

randomer wrote:

On single lane roads, I often drive below the statutory limit, depending on the conditions and circumstances. Remember the speed limit is that - A limit, not a target.

Of course mate, i agree with you. If it were raining or the roads were in a bad way then i would never try to reach the speed limit. Even in the Irish Driving test you will get punished for driving too slow are you in turn are slowing up everyone else. I just think some people drive at very slow speed when compared to the road they are on and this in turn makes driver behind take chances to get past them.

Biro

Blaming 70+ year olds for the carnage is really missing the point. Granted the reflexes are much slower, but by and large the weekly trip to the shops isn't really going to save lives if it's cut out.
Besides, I would think that the road death number would be much more affected by takeing the 20 and below drivers off the road than it would be by taking the 70 and over drivers off the road. I'd actually bet money on that. But the public wouldn't like that suggestion.

pclancy

In reference to the overconfidence thing causing so many deaths...

Proper training is needed for events that you cannot plan for to happen but if you've experianced them before can have a much better chance of dealing with.

For example, You could go a whole year or more after starting driving before having to do an emergency stop in rain/fog, driving in snow or ice, proper overtaking technique, having cars pullout in front of you, knowing what to do when you car starts to skid....all these things should be taught by instruction or some kind of simulation system, you can never know how to deal with these things until it happens and it seems thats why there are so many deaths!

Pilots train hard for several events that they will probably never enounter but when it does, they are able to properly handle then (eg engine failures, fire, birdstrikes etc). Im not saying every driver should be made sit in a simulator for hours every six months but surely there could be training brought into the driving instruction curriculam, it could be taught in schools or even some government/AA/ISM/ issued guidlines on what to do?

It seems a little more work to make people better drivers would save so many lives....

gyppo

logik wrote:

I just think some people drive at very slow speed when compared to the road they are on and this in turn makes driver behind take chances to get past them.

I agree with you - its very frustrating to be behind someone going excessively slowly. However, it is the frustrated driver behind, who does take a chance, who is solely to blame in the event of an accident. Nothing should make a responsible driver take a chance, blaming accidents on those who were not going fast enough for other road users is a cop-out.

Funxy

pclancy wrote:

For example, You could go a whole year or more after starting driving before having to do an emergency stop in rain/fog, driving in snow or ice, proper overtaking technique, having cars pullout in front of you, knowing what to do when you car starts to skid....all these things should be taught by instruction or some kind of simulation system, you can never know how to deal with these things until it happens and it seems thats why there are so many deaths!

That's exactly what i want to see introduced! I would like if you had to attend an advanced driving course once every 2 years. There is no marking on it, you don't passs or fail you just need proof you have attened. I believe this would help no end

GreeBo

logik wrote:

Of course mate, i agree with you. If it were raining or the roads were in a bad way then i would never try to reach the speed limit. Even in the Irish Driving test you will get punished for driving too slow are you in turn are slowing up everyone else. I just think some people drive at very slow speed when compared to the road they are on and this in turn makes driver behind take chances to get past them.

What if the person is 70+, or driving a modifed car due to a disability and they are not comfortable driving at 80kph on a backroad?

Do we even have roads with 100kph that are only 1 lane in both directions and dont have overtaking sections? i.e 2 and 1 roads?

Define "too slow".

If by driving slowly I can "make" someone else in a car behind do something then I should be on the telly beside David Blane.

Keith C

randomer wrote:

Can you define "slow drivers" for me?

I sometimes drive slowly, but I do not understand how I "make people take changes" and "cause crashes".

For example, if I am driving on a motorway I sometimes drive at between 75km/h and 100km/h. I drive in the left lane. How does this cause a problem?

Why would you drive 75km/h when the speed limit is 120km/h on a motorway? Granted if theres traffice in front of you, but if you had a clear road in front of you, you would drive at half the maximum speed limit???

Keith C

pclancy wrote:

In reference to the overconfidence thing causing so many deaths...

Proper training is needed for events that you cannot plan for to happen but if you've experianced them before can have a much better chance of dealing with.

For example, You could go a whole year or more after starting driving before having to do an emergency stop in rain/fog, driving in snow or ice, proper overtaking technique, having cars pullout in front of you, knowing what to do when you car starts to skid....all these things should be taught by instruction or some kind of simulation system, you can never know how to deal with these things until it happens and it seems thats why there are so many deaths!

Pilots train hard for several events that they will probably never enounter but when it does, they are able to properly handle then (eg engine failures, fire, birdstrikes etc). Im not saying every driver should be made sit in a simulator for hours every six months but surely there could be training brought into the driving instruction curriculam, it could be taught in schools or even some government/AA/ISM/ issued guidlines on what to do?

It seems a little more work to make people better drivers would save so many lives....

What your suggesting would involve using a test track and hiring profesional instructers. The cost would be massive & the backlog would be even worse then current driving test waits.
Nice idea on paper but impossible to impliment. a driving lesson is what €30?? add this in & your looking at €100 easily. back to the drawing board

seamus

Keith C wrote:

Why would you drive 75km/h when the speed limit is 120km/h on a motorway? Granted if theres traffice in front of you, but if you had a clear road in front of you, you would drive at half the maximum speed limit???

Because he can?
Although it's not illegal, I personally believe that the above mentioned circumstances would show a massive disregard for other road users, and to be poor roadcraft in general.
My reason being that if you are unable/unhappy to drive in accordance with the prevailing traffic and conditions, then you avoid them. That is of course unless all other options are unreasonable - you wouldn't pull a trailer on a motorway at 30km/h, but you wouldn't have an option if the only road available to you has a 100km/h limit.

hermit

Keith C wrote:

Why would you drive 75km/h when the speed limit is 120km/h on a motorway? Granted if theres traffice in front of you, but if you had a clear road in front of you, you would drive at half the maximum speed limit???

Half the maximum speed is 60km/h in 120 zone not 75.

This is like saying everyone should run around rather than walk just because we are able to run. Ridiculous.

Believe me when conditions prevail I usually drive at close to the speed limit. But everyone must take into account other issues not just road/weather conditions. i.e. personal circumstances. For example, I was driving on a stretch of the N2 awhile ago at night - the limit on this particular stretch is 120km/h - i stayed in and around 90km/h - I had spent the day in work (starting at 7.am then went to college and I was wrecked - so given those circumstances I didn't feel comfortable doing 120Km/h.

Also, lets not forget that now, motorways are not built just solely because you can do higher than usual speed and you can get where you are going quicker (in theory), they also represent direct routes that save time - not just that you can go faster.

unkel

hermit wrote:

This is like saying everyone should run around rather than walk just because we are able to run. Ridiculous

Or it is like saying everyone should walk rather than crawl using their left knee and right elbow only

hermit

unkel wrote:

Or it is like saying everyone should walk rather than crawl using their left knee and right elbow only

Ha ha if you say so - i'll try it out and let u know how i get on

pclancy

No not a test track, how about something PC based? We allready have trucks and test centres fitted with the Driver theory test PCs, why not a similar setup with PC based driving simulators to give people a chance to learn how to cope with difficult conditions or unexpected situations, how to control a skid, how to scan for hazards etc?

It wouldnt cost much compared to the money saved that is spent on insurance, AandE and emergency services that come out of every accident? The government has money to blow on plenty of schemes every year that dont save lives why not throw a few million at something that would save lives?

How about this for an example of a simple system....

http://www.driverinteractive.com/virtual_trainer.shtml

peasant

You can not learn to drive / handle difficult driving situations on a PC.
On a multi-million simulator maybe, but not on a PC.

All the feedback you get through your arse-meter for example is very important for making the right decisions.

Your behind will tell you much quicker if your car is slipping than your eyes ...you cannot simulate that on a PC.

pclancy

Okay but you cannot argue that at least some experiance, even if it is PC based sitting on your arse watching a screen and using a sim is better then none at all?

People dont know what to expect, they dont know how to handle things that they've never experianced or have been trained for, why not give them some kind of training by use of something like that?

I blame a huge amount of the deaths on our road at the crap training drivers get in Ireland. It shoudl at least be taught in some fashion in schools. People die because theyre inexperianced and dont know what they're doing or are going to fast or drunk/drugged up.

peasant

Basic driver training should be improved a lot.

Trained and tested instructors in dual control cars spring to mind.

Advanced driver training is a bit of a double edged sword, tbh. I remember one county in Germany with an above average accident rate offerd free advanced driver training to young drivers.
The end result was that about 50% of the participants drove safer afterwards, the other 50% used their newly acquired "skills" to drive even faster and now waaay over their capabilities instead of just right on the edge :eek:

pclancy

Yeah overconfidence is a big problem allright. Its just frustrating the way so many people die for nothing.

Altreab

GreeBo wrote:

or driving a modifed car due to a disability and they are not comfortable driving at 80kph on a backroad?

The drivers of cars modified due to their disabilities that i know are VERY comfortable at 80kph on backroads

[/QUOTE]Do we even have roads with 100kph that are only 1 lane in both directions and dont have overtaking sections? i.e 2 and 1 roads?[/QUOTE]

N59 From Galway to Clifden for one

randomer

seamus wrote:

Because he can?
Although it's not illegal, I personally believe that the above mentioned circumstances would show a massive disregard for other road users, and to be poor roadcraft in general.
My reason being that if you are unable/unhappy to drive in accordance with the prevailing traffic and conditions, then you avoid them. That is of course unless all other options are unreasonable - you wouldn't pull a trailer on a motorway at 30km/h, but you wouldn't have an option if the only road available to you has a 100km/h limit.

How does driving at 80km/h on a motorway in the left lane show a "massive disregard for other road users"? I am not preventing someone passing me.

If you are talking about someone driving in the overtaking lane at this speed when the left lane is clear then I would agree with you.

What speed would you pull a trailer on a motorway?

Altreab

randomer wrote:

How does driving at 80km/h on a motorway in the left lane show a "massive disregard for other road users"? I am not preventing someone passing me.

If you are talking about someone driving in the overtaking lane at this speed when the left lane is clear then I would agree with you.

What speed would you pull a trailer on a motorway?

I think the poster who talked about "slow drivers" was not talking about motorway or dual carriage way driving but more the 2 lane roads where a single driver driving at a speed much slower than the road would safely allow can easily cause a tail back of traffic numbering scores of cars.
It is a lack of consideration for others that causes the frustration in the drivers following behind.
In the USA isnt it a traffic offence to not let following traffic by when you have 7 or more cars behind you?

jmayo

>> In the USA isnt it a traffic offence to not let following traffic by when you have 7 or more cars behind you?
Did not know that ??

If you brought that law in here half the country would be fined and I not talking about just older people either.
This issue would not be an issue if the government had gotten off it's ass and actually put passing lanes in every few kms on primary routes.
Look at Eurpoen countries, Australi, New Zealand etc.
Later these could be expanded into dual carraiageways depending on location.
The only places there are passing lanes is on hill climbs but of course the Irish drivers all stay in the overtaking lanes since they believe the left lane is only for tractors and trucks.

legs11

slow drivers are a pain in the a**
on any given day on our rural roads (ie most of ireland) it can be guranteed there are stupid ignorant drivers holding up several cars troddling along at 40 mph......
who refuse to pull over at all. and some of these tossers flash at you when you pass them out.

from experience most of these cars are hyundais, fords,daewoos or cars like that.

no one can deny this , it happens and i bet its also a factor in road accidents. having to take risky manouvers to pass out said drivers.

i was driving one day in the sticks and saw a car ahead, i nearly drove into it when i approached it, it was doing about 15mph, no kidding.

ZiabR

legs11 wrote:

slow drivers are a pain in the a**
on any given day on our rural roads (ie most of ireland) it can be guranteed there are stupid ignorant drivers holding up several cars troddling along at 40 mph......
who refuse to pull over at all. and some of these tossers flash at you when you pass them out.

from experience most of these cars are hyundais, fords,daewoos or cars like that.

no one can deny this , it happens and i bet its also a factor in road accidents. having to take risky maneuvers to pass out said drivers.

i was driving one day in the sticks and saw a car ahead, i nearly drove into it when i approached it, it was doing about 15mph, no kidding.

You have a point in there buried among "over-reacting". I have said this earlier but as man people have stated, if you take the chance and are the cause of a crash, then you along are the reason for the crash and are at fault. I agree with you that "excessive slow" drivers do cause people to overtake and take chances, but NO one is forcing you to do it.

To say that all slow drivers are in Ford/Hyundi/Daewoo, thats complete bull. I drive a Mondeo and i am not an excessive slow driver. I agree with your root point but you are going about expressing it the complete wrong way.

Vikings

On my way in to work tonight leaving Lucan heading in the direction of strawberry beds I was behind a lunatic who decided he would take the first couple of blind corners with all 4 of his wheels completely on the wrong side of the road... I could not believe my eyes!

Needless to say I slowed right down...

Then when passing westmanstown gym i saw an almighty row of brake lights start to light up and thought here we go again, must have been a tail back of at least 15 cars all dawdling along at 20km an hour all the way to clonsilla.

Two cases of driving slow there, where I was driving slow it was purely out of fear for my own safety, where the other driver was driving slow... who knows but it was annoying.

And when drivers get annoyed they would like to overtake, leading to accidents. In an accident the overtaking driver would be of course at fault however there is still a certain amount of "blame" to be put on a driver who is driving well below the posted limit. This of course is assuming conditions allow

Andrewf20

legs11 wrote:

i was driving one day in the sticks and saw a car ahead, i nearly drove into it when i approached it, it was doing about 15mph, no kidding.

This is the single biggest annoyance I have when it comes to driving. Back road trundlers doing 30-35mph on a 50 mph backroad in good conditions, but with the twists, bends, humps in the road and oncoming traffic it can be almost impossible to pass sometimes.

DeBeere

Andrewf20 wrote:

This is the single biggest annoyance I have when it comes to driving. Back road trundlers doing 30-35mph on a 50 mph backroad in good conditions, but with the twists, bends, humps in the road and oncoming traffic it can be almost impossible to pass sometimes.

This could be the reason for their reduced speed...

Maybe they just can't drive as fast as you.