Wait For Integrated Mpeg4 Tuner/decoder Tv Sets

a bientot

I would suggest that one should NOT invest in a new LCD or plasma tv set until the major companies Philips, Sony etc bring out sets with MPEG4 tuners to suit future Irish DTT consumers.......who will almost certainly be tuning in..... in MPEG4 format.
It seems very evident that Irish DTT will be exclusively in MPEG4. As is known now France should have gone MPEG4 from start up but the decoders in MPEG2 had already been ordered just as VHS tapes were ready for the video recorder market even though Sony's Betamex was a far superior system.

Many of the tv sets available in the U.K. and France with the HD ready sign on them are catering for the MPEG2 market in these countries where up to twenty channels are being provided on a free basis.... subject to a once off payment for a decoder or an integrated tuner within the actual tv set.

From 2008 in France all newly manufactured tv sets will have to have an integrated terrestrial tuner in MPEG4 (encompassing MPEG2) allowing consumers to watch all the basic tnt and the pay channels in HDTV....costing an extra 50 - 100 euros per unit. For instance TF1 will be available on two different frequencies 'ordinary' in MPEG2 and the programmes in HDTV will only be available to pay customers on MPEG4.
So if you have to buy YOU can call the price......particularly if you have no interest in cable or satellite.
Otherwise, hang on and you will avoid ever having a 'yoke' on your tv set. Heaven on earth!

By the way the French free TNT channels will be available from Astra 19 from 3 June to cater for those who live in the Alps and the Pyrenees on the French side of the border (!!!) subject to once off payment in France for necessary equipment... .. ..

L1011

France's basic DTT channels = MPEG2.

Irish DTT = one MPEG4 channel.

'evident' is it?

watty

MPEG4 is increasing likely to be used by Terrestrial Pay TV, for ordinary Definition.

So either way, and given fact that most "HD ready" Tvs do not even have 1080 lines (All HD is/will be 1080 line here) and lack of HD channesl, the advice to hold off upgrading is good.

yellabelly

Having already bought a new Sony set I'm hoping an MPEG4 PCMCIA upgrade module will be available. Probably wishful thinking.

byte

Or you could just add a nice MPEG4 PVR

watty

yellabelly wrote:

Having already bought a new Sony set I'm hoping an MPEG4 PCMCIA upgrade module will be available. Probably wishful thinking.

I saw it last summer
http://www.neotion.com/products/modules.php

They use them in France for Pay TV on MPEG2 satellite receiver

It can't ever do HD as the MPEG2 decoders won't handle the data rate. But it will convert ordinary resolution MPEG4 to MPEG2 and has a view card Slot for payTv

lawhec

IMHO buying a TV specifically as an IDTV is a waste of time, no harm if you get it as a secondary extra. Until the technology has matured enough to be stabilised, a STB is easier to upgrade and deal with.

watty

Agreed. Also you have changed your name!

Ulsterman 1690

Incidently I dont understand why ALL TV's dont have integrated digital tuners at this stage I mean it ought to be compulsary what with the UK's analouge switch off starting next year.

I mean how many shops in 1984 (the year before the 405 switchoff) were selling 405 only TV sets ?

JohnC.

Most UK people I know prefer to use an STB even if their TV has an integrated tuner. An STB is usually better in their experience. And they can get PVR STBs.

zilog_jones

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Incidently I dont understand why ALL TV's dont have integrated digital tuners at this stage I mean it ought to be compulsary what with the UK's analouge switch off starting next year.

They've had DTT since 1998 in the UK, and they know what standards they're using. Here there's still only trials going on and no one can say what standards they'll agree on. Also I'm sure the TV manufacturers will be reluctant to make sets with specific DTT tuners for such a small market (if we don't end up using something fully compatible with what they're doing in France) - I'm sure it's a bit more complicated than just adding a VHF tuner.

I mean how many shops in 1984 (the year before the 405 switchoff) were selling 405 only TV sets ?

The reason why the 405-line switchoff took so long in the UK was because it they decided to only use UHF for PAL broadcasts, so it took them a long time to make UHF coverage comparable to VHF. Also people generally kept TV sets for longer back in the day.

Actually, how did the availability of 405 line sets go? Unfortunately the demise of the system pre-dates my birth by a few months so I never experienced it. I've seen a lot of sets from the '70s (it wasn't uncommon for kids in the '90s to have to put up with black and white hand-me-downs ), but never anything apparently capable of receiving 405-line transmissions. (And yeah I know a 405-line TV would have always been completely useless in Limerick, but I used to live in England)

watty

They should never have turned 405 ON. To benefit 300 Users, instead of the 625 system.

There is pressure in UK from Sky to allow MPEG4 on paytv Terrestrial.

MPEG4 SD will be widely used. MPEG2 is basically obsolete. Pay TV on Satellite will switch SD channels to MPEG to halve the cost/ double channels when the installed base of MPEG4 boxes is high enough.

Soon the cost of MPEG4 receivers will be similar to MPEG2 only. For SD, it is simply a different chip and SW for DSP. For HD a higher spec DAC for component is needed and HDI interface.

There is no extra cost in doing MPEG2 & MPEG4 SD on a MPEG4 HD receiver.

Ireland will not be using something strange and innovative, that is NOT what the trials are about.

I did see some old 405 sets in Dublin in 1971, they were not in use. A house in Janesboro in Limerick I rented for a short time in end of 1990 had a 405 set, I presume brought from Dublin. It displayed a raster and had noise on picture and sound, so I guess it still worked.

The standard tuner head for terrestrial does 45MHz to 860Mhz with no gaps.

Ulsterman 1690

I think I read somewhere about some viewers in Limerick being unable to wait for RTE to be rolled out across the country and investing in elaborate rooftop ironmongery to pull in Kippure on 405 lines.

Ive never seen a 405 line only set (apart from a in a Museum in London *) but the last time I saw a working "dual standard" set was in 1989 (although whether it still worked on "405" was of course impossible to verify)

I have an original copy of the book "basic television" which goes into a lot of detail about the workings of "dual standard" sets - Ingenious but hideously complex (and unreliable) beasts they were interally.

Anyway getting back to digital stuff while it would make sense to ensure that sets and STB's are as future proof as reasonably possible regarding MPEG4 I still dont see why anyone would prefer an external STB especially on a portable set.

Surely the average viewer (as opposed to gadget lovers like you and me) wants fewer boxes cluttering up their living rooms ?

And surely even gadget lovers like you and me could be doing with one less damn remote handset in our collestion.

* Incidently I remember reading somewhere that said museum were hounded by the TV licencing authority even though none of their sets were useable for anything other than playback of old 405 line videotapes.

L1011

but but but but.... that video recorder had a tuner in it! Need to pay for that! </Capita>

L1011

watty wrote:

They should never have turned 405 ON. To benefit 300 Users, instead of the 625 system.

Well, not much choice in 1936 - but it might have been an idea not to turn it -back- on in 1947, considering what else was out there - 819 for a start.

As it was, RTE ran 625 before the BBC (publically) did, the UK was a bit behind in that regard. Although they were mucking around with UHF and all that when we weren't...

Sponge Bob

MYOB wrote:

As it was, RTE ran 625 before the BBC (publically) did, the UK was a bit behind in that regard. Although they were mucking around with UHF and all that when we weren't...

Bit that lasted a month in 1962 and we have been behind ever since.

We lagged on colour. teletext, digital DTT , freeview on satellite , terrestrial uhf instead of vhf etc.

The only lead we ever had on the UK was on early cable deployment . shame we still have it though HFC in ireland means Happy Farmers Cows
Thank God the Uk never went mmds , we fairly bate them on that one ...eh , we still do . They will never catch up on us .

Ulsterman 1690

The Beeb were experimenting with both 405 and 625 line transmissions on UHF from the late fifties onwards (although of course regular service didnt begin until 1964 and it took well over a decade for it to be rolled out across the UK)

Although RTE beat the UK to it in starting a regular 625 line service presumably they were aware of the BBC's plans to use System I* Although what I could never figure out is why they developed System I in the first place when System D (6.5 MHz sound used in Eastern Europe and China) was clearly better (more video bandwidth) and fitted into the same 8 MHz channel

Well, not much choice in 1936

Well they could have gone for the superior 441 line standard

* While there strictly speaking was no need for Ireland to use the same 625 line standard as the UK even RTE didnt want to inflict TRI-standard TV sets on the Public. Dual Standard was problematic enough

watty

MYOB wrote:

Well, not much choice in 1936 - but it might have been an idea not to turn it -back- on in 1947, considering what else was out there - 819 for a start.

As it was, RTE ran 625 before the BBC (publically) did, the UK was a bit behind in that regard. Although they were mucking around with UHF and all that when we weren't...

Yes it was the 1940s. The 625 existed by then and ONLY 300 pre war 405 line sets.

I meant turn it Back on.

SPDUB

watty wrote:

Yes it was the 1940s. The 625 existed by then and ONLY 300 pre war 405 line sets.

I meant turn it Back on.

Didn't they turn it back on so that they would have their own tv industry.

watty

Yes, but if they had used 625, they could have EXPORTED TV sets also. Other than to people in Dublin with aircraft hazards.

lawhec

watty wrote:

Yes, but if they had used 625, they could have EXPORTED TV sets also. Other than to people in Dublin with aircraft hazards.

Works both ways though, the UK could have then been a prime target for televisions from contentinal Europe.

It was the same thinking with the French.

Ulsterman 1690

The 625 existed by then and ONLY 300 pre war 405 line sets.

According to my copy of Basic televisionthere were 20,000 TV sets in the UK in September 1939. Were 19,700 TV sets donated to the war effort for conversion to radar sets or did the homes of wealthy gadget lovers suffer particularly badly in the air raids or did somebody get their figures wrong ?

byte

Can we please get back on topic!

Ulsterman 1690

Sorry

watty

Sorry
Watty Mod slaps watty Poster on wrist.

Actually I may have misread an article. I find a figure of 3350 viewers tuned in to 1st BBC broadcast after WWII

Sponge Bob

What war ??????

In the Free State it was known as The Emergency

Would I be wong in saying that the French interest in Mpeg4 is because they have secam and have had the best analogue picture in Europe for decades

Is nobody else offering MPEG4 services yet ??

Ulsterman 1690

they have secam and have had the best analogue picture in Europe for decades

If youre into SECAM dot crawl, Large white spots in your picture (French system still uses Positive Video modulation) and Crackling sound (French system still uses AM sound) ...........:rolleyes:

watty

All the Studio & recording is in PAL or Digital, never ever SECAM. A VHS converts to & from SECAM.
There are about 5 versions of SECAM to try and fix it. It's worse than NTSC.

It can't be better than PAL, as all SECAM goes through PAL. Except newer direct Digital Sources. In another few years it will be gone.

zilog_jones

watty wrote:

A VHS converts to & from SECAM.

Unless you're in the Middle East, then there's MESECAM VHS recordings for extra confusion. I used to live in Saudi in the early '90s and it was pretty much a de facto standard to have a VCR and TV both capable of PAL, (ME)SECAM, NTSC 3.58 and NTSC 4.43 as well if you want I remember our Daewoo TV (with stylish glass panel in front of the screen) had LEDs on the front to tell you what standard you were watching.

Ulsterman 1690

Ummm Ive just realised we started talking about MPEG4 drifted to talking about 405 line TV (Probably my fault for making the comparison) and when Byte takes us to task for going O/T we go to talking about the relative merits of PAL and SECAM (via an argument over the correct term for that little bit of unplesentness in 1939-45) with something about video tape formats, glass panels and LED's thrown in as well.

Quick somebody say something about MPEG4 for crying out loud

watty

Erm.. it saves 50% on same quality for ordinary definition, but has more flavours than Heinz.

Foggy43

OK! I have a Sony Bravia LCD 40 inch 1080. Lets say in the morning all I could receive was a DTT service using MPEG4. Will I receive anything or would I notice any difference at all?

I can not get my head round this MPEG business. Only thing I understand is MPEG4 will carry more channels per frequency than MPEG2. In Ireland at present there are so few channels there would be no difference between the two. HD needs MPEG4 as it takes up a lot of space. There is my limited knowledge:eek:

byte

Your Bravia's integrated tuner won't be any good for MPEG4 broadcasts, but it's nothing an MPEG4 set-top box won't fix! Similarly, a HD Settop box for HD channels. Nothing to worry about really.

Foggy43

byte!
Thankyou for the info!
I suppose I can assume 'Freeview' in the UK is MPEG2?

watty

Foggy43 wrote:

OK! I have a Sony Bravia LCD 40 inch 1080. Lets say in the morning all I could receive was a DTT service using MPEG4. Will I receive anything or would I notice any difference at all?

I can not get my head round this MPEG business. Only thing I understand is MPEG4 will carry more channels per frequency than MPEG2. In Ireland at present there are so few channels there would be no difference between the two. HD needs MPEG4 as it takes up a lot of space. There is my limited knowledge:eek:

partially true. What Byte says is true.

But for DTT to succeed it needs about 60 channels. All the Irish, all the basic UK and the popular pay channels as pay TV. Otherwise it is not commercially viable.

Also Analogue coverage in Ireland is poor by UK standards and DTT will initially give much less coverage.

An MPEG4 HD channel is about FIVE to SIX times the space of an MPEG4 quality ordinary channel. Twice as bad if it was MPEG2. About 20 times the space of a cheap shopping channel (some of them are only 354x288, compared with 544x576 and 720x576 for regular channels)

watty

Foggy43 wrote:

byte!
Thankyou for the info!
I suppose I can assume 'Freeview' in the UK is MPEG2?

At the moment, yes.
It is likely that a bunch of the UK pay TV terrestrial will go MPEG4 standard Definition to fit twice the pay channels. Then sometime after analogue is closed they will have a few HD MPEG4 Free channels. Then some years later switch to MPEG4 for all the channels

Foggy43

Watty!
Looking from 'outside' my main concern with DTT in Ireland is money. My main concern whether it will be comercially viable. I suppose it will have to start somewhere.
I suppose by the time a full DTT service, if at all, is up and running, MPEG4 will be the standard.

I fully understand the initial problems with DTT coverage.

maxg

Mpeg4 will be the standard for DTT maybe in 20 or 30 years.
There are not much plans to introduce mpeg4 for DTT in europe. The main target is to replace analogue with DTT for channels payed via the TV licence in the different countries. For that mpeg2 is enough.
The are some plans in france but if the wrong party win the next election all that plans will be canceled. Some political parties in france don't like the idea to builtup a DTT network with tax money and let then the commercial channels jump in for nothing.
The announcement from sky about mpeg4 via freeview was only a bad joke.

watty

More like 2 to 6 years.
All HD is MPEG4. Once enough people have MPEG4, Pay Tv will change first. Sky Satellite Pay TV will change to MPEG4 completely maybe in 5 years or less.

IPTV is changing from MPEG2 to MPEG4 now.

Commercial pressure. As MPEG4 set box is cheaper a Satellite operator may recover the cost saving in a year.

For DTT Pay TV the issue is not enough channels using MPEG2 to compete with Cable and Satellite.

Don't the Commercial channels on TNT in France pay for carriage? It won't be cancelled because users already have it.

maxg

Look around in Europe. Where is the overwhelming demand for HDTV? German premiere for instance canceled HD sport after the world cup.
Look at Top up tv as a DTT paytv provider. There is no great chance for a DTT paytv provider to make money.
Its simply no market hole left over which can be filled with paytv via DTT. A real competition would affort a lot of money with not much chance for a return of investment.
In all the discussions about irish DTT and mpeg4 everybody is dreaming about the technical possibilities but nobody ask the question who should pay the bill and who should subscribe to all the channels.
The french commercial channels are only willing to jump in this adventure if they get one mux for free. Beside the test crew for the 6 week HDTV test last year nearly nobody own a HDTV mpeg4 capable DTT receiver in france.

Solair

MPEG4 also means they can squeeze more niche channels and more virtual video on demand services like sky box office into less bandwidth. It's absolutely in the interest of providers to start upgrading to it. In most cases, it's only a matter of a software update on the boxes and the new boxes are generally backwards compatable with MPEG2 anyway.

HDTV is a bigger deal in the US as the standard definition televisions are significantly poorer resolution than standard definition European tvs. A large screen NTSC tv looks terrible in comparison to a 100Hz widescreen PAL/SECAM TV when receiving a digitally derived signal.

HDTV will definitely be a harder sell in Europe.

maxg

Its not possible to upgrade a mpeg2 box via software to mpeg4.
Introducing mpeg4 means to invest money for every provider.
If there is too less demand it makes no sense.
Which firm should invest a lot of money into a mpeg4 DTT paytv distribution in Ireland without a great chance of a return of investment?
The competitors are established and only with a handfull subscribers its not possible to refinance such a project.

watty

MPEG4 doesn't mean HD.

I agree about HD. Unless you have a 48" to 60" screen and great content it's pointless.

NOT CONSIDERING HD
MPEG4 saves 50% cost of spectrum or allows twice as many channels. By this autumn, standard Definition MPEG4 won't cost any more in decoders either.

watty

In france they use a CAM for viewing card that converts the MPEG4 to MPEG2. (Not HD).

With only about 8 or 10 pay TV channels there is no viability at all. With 40 channels there is. The MPEG4 costs now very little more as a once off install cost (Nothing to do with HD).

maxg

There is no mpeg4 content on air via DTT in france.
The irish market is too small even for a handfull mpeg2 paytv channels via DTT.

L1011

maxg wrote:

There is no mpeg4 content on air via DTT in france.
The irish market is too small even for a handfull mpeg2 paytv channels via DTT.

Untrue, theres a number of channels on DTT in france in MPEG4 - but they are all pay. As has been said numerous times in this thread.

Solair

MPEG4 makes absolute sense on a new DTT network. There would be no point in rolling out MPEG2 at this stage, even if they're trialling it. Compatability with the UK networks is really irrelevant as settop boxes will be supplied to the vast majority of viewers anyway.

Rolling out an MPEG4 network would mean that whoever's operating the DTT network will have endless more options. Rolling out MPEG2 really makes very little sense at this stage in the game.

I can see UPC Chorus/NTL upgrading the MMDS network to MPEG4 too. It would squeeze much more into it than the existing system.

Likewise, MPEG4 on cable would give capacity for all sorts of extra services, more importantly, it would free up bandwidth for alternative uses on the cable network i.e. broadband and interactivity.

The likes of UPC could still roll out MPEG4 as they're still not really by any means all digital, particularly in cable areas.

watty

The MPEG4 can go on an MPEG2 TS. Allows cable /mmds to have 240 channels.
UPC will be finishing upgrade to digital 1st. Then the Chorus MMDS is DVB-t and NTL MMDS is DVB-c, Since at 2.5Ghz there is no real avantage to COFDM (DVB-t) compared to regular single carrier QAM like on DVB-C, UPC I think have already decided to migrate the Chorus MMDS to DVB-C sometime after it is all Digital. Any conversion to MPEG4 could initially be on Premium & HD channels.

Any MPEG2 to MPEG4 on cable will be a gradual transistion.

Antenna

watty wrote:

UPC I think have already decided to migrate the Chorus MMDS to DVB-C sometime after it is all Digital. Any conversion to MPEG4 could initially be on Premium & HD channels.

Any MPEG2 to MPEG4 on cable will be a gradual transistion.

But doesn't DVB-T work with lower signal levels than DVB-C when used for transmission ? such a changeover could lead to some reduction of MMDS coverage?

maxg

Solair wrote:

MPEG4 makes absolute sense on a new DTT network. There would be no point in rolling out MPEG2 at this stage, even if they're trialling it. Compatability with the UK networks is really irrelevant as settop boxes will be supplied to the vast majority of viewers anyway.

Rolling out an MPEG4 network would mean that whoever's operating the DTT network will have endless more options. Rolling out MPEG2 really makes very little sense at this stage in the game.

I can see UPC Chorus/NTL upgrading the MMDS network to MPEG4 too. It would squeeze much more into it than the existing system.

Likewise, MPEG4 on cable would give capacity for all sorts of extra services, more importantly, it would free up bandwidth for alternative uses on the cable network i.e. broadband and interactivity.

The likes of UPC could still roll out MPEG4 as they're still not really by any means all digital, particularly in cable areas.

You cannot switch off the analogue channels and tell the TV licence payers they have ot buy a 200 or 300 euro mpeg4 receiver. Thats the reason allover in europe mpeg2 is in use for DTT.
For paytv via DTT there is no great chance in Ireland.
I doubt UPC will invest fresh money in MMDS.

SPDUB

Solair wrote:

..... as settop boxes will be supplied to the vast majority of viewers anyway.
.

Where did this nugget of information come from