Irish Rugby

Chucky the tree

copacetic wrote:

for people who are, ahem, slightly more mature in age (like myself) there is much less of a tendency to be so blasé about actually winning things. I think this thread illustrates how good the current side is when people are so critical of achievments that are up there with the best ever by any Irish team.

So because we had a **** irish rugby team for years before, we should celebrate a triple crown like its a Grand slam?

EdgarAllenPoo

I'm guessing that even though the French teams have pulled out and a lot of the GP teams have pulled out of the European Cup there still isn't a place for Connacht next year, that's a shame.

copacetic

Chucky the tree wrote:

So because we had a **** irish rugby team for years before, we should celebrate a triple crown like its a Grand slam?

What are you on about? I didn't say anything like that.

This is arguably the best Irish team ever. Yet for some reason people want to debate whether they are rubbish or not? It's ridiculous.

Chucky the tree

copacetic wrote:

I didn't say that did I? pull your head in.

So what are you saying then?

copacetic

Chucky the tree wrote:

So what are you saying then?

apologies, I edited above post. What I am trying to say is that we are a very small country with very small rugby playing numbers. It's a miracle we are up there anywhere near the best teams in the world. We clearly aren't 'rubbish'.

(and please no-one bring up New Zealand being small, their rugby playing numbers are massive and they get players from all the islands too)

Sangre

Comparisons to NZ are only valid if rugby was our national sport.

copacetic

Sangre wrote:

Comparisons to NZ are only valid if rugby was our national sport.

exactly, but whenever you point out what a small country we are rugby wise someone always says "New Zealand" are too, when they have a much larger player pool to choose from.

Chucky the tree

copacetic wrote:

apologies, I edited above post. What I am trying to say is that we are a very small country with very small rugby playing numbers. It's a miracle we are up there anywhere near the best teams in the world. We clearly aren't 'rubbish'.

(and please no-one bring up New Zealand being small, their rugby playing numbers are massive and they get players from all the islands too)

Wales. An even smaller playing pool yet they have managed to win a GS in the last few years. And we probaly have better players then them but we just cant seem to do it when it matters.

RuggieBear

Chucky the tree wrote:

Wales. An even smaller playing pool yet they have managed to win a GS in the last few years. And we probaly have better players then them but we just cant seem to do it when it matters.

larger playing pool. and also their national sport.

copacetic

Chucky the tree wrote:

Wales. An even smaller playing pool yet they have managed to win a GS in the last few years. And we probaly have better players then them but we just cant seem to do it when it matters.

I should have added Wales to New Zealand. Rugby is the national game in wales also and although they have less playing numbers they have more clubs. Besides they only have 1000 or so less senior players than us. As a % of population their playing numbers are much higher so they are much more likely to have the better sportsmen in the country play rugby than we are.

Anyway, I wasn't looking to argue should we have won a grand slam. We should have this year, we were very close to it. However you need to be consistently good or come up against other teams on bad days to win grand slams and up until the last few years we have been nowhere near. At least now we are competing, no-one is happy that we threw it away but saying that that last couple of mins against france makes us a rubbish rugby side is laughable and that is my understanding of the OPs opinion.

nacho libre

Laslo wrote:

An opinion you're entitled to, of course. But I would say they are overrated myself. Underachieving in the sense that we're not winning any silverware. Overrated in the sense that we're simply not putting in the performances that the hype might suggest.

I'm (deeply) sorry to say it... Ireland just aren't as good as everyone seems to think. We'll see at the WC.

I have to disagree.. Ireland put in a good perfomance against France albeit for 39 minutes of the second half... They comprehensively beat England although people will remind me it was an average English side but to put 30 points on an English team is not something Ireland has done too often. I would like to view it as a poor English side being outclassed by a much superior Irish team. I'm not saying they are good enough to lift the trophy but if they perform to their full potential, and have the ability to see out games, this Irish team is capable of giving the All Blacks a very good game.
Well, as you said we'll see come September.

Chucky the tree

if all the other teams perform to their full potential they will have a good chance against NZ.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

randomname2005

keystone wrote:

I'd like to pose two questions to anyone who'd like to answer them

1. Is O'Sullivan picking the strongest squad?

I'm not sure if this answering the question but I think that O'Sullivan's hands are tied to some extent when it comes to selecting overseas players. If you look at the hassle the RFU has with getting the english players from their clubs to play for the English team, the IRFU will have even more hassle.
IF we had (for example) Leo Cullen, Eoin Reddin and Shane Jennings playing in the national team they would have had to go back to playing with their clubs on the off weekends of the 6 nations. Of course Jordan Murphy was selected but I think this policy allows our front line players to rest during the six nations when necessary, stay in training camp etc.
just my €.02
R

buck65

Lads I think we are playing to our potential. We are probably 5th or 6th best in the world. Realistically all this nonsense about the world cup is clouding the real issue - will we qualify from our group?
If we do (and its a big if) we will probably meet NZ in the quarter finals and then we are facing a massive test and will probably fall short IMo.
I think we are all hyping ourselves up too much and will be bitterly disappointed come Autumn.
In regards to the HEC Munster looked tired and spent but will be back, Leinster underachieved again (they really do frustrate).
Ok Im off to hide from the backlash.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

nacho libre

Chucky the tree wrote:

if all the other teams perform to their full potential they will have a good chance against NZ.

I don't think Argentina, Italy, Scotland, England and Wales playing to their full potential are as good as Ireland. I Can't see any of those teams troubling New Zealand. I think France, Australia and Ireland are the only teams that have the ability to run New Zealand close come in September.

Diamondmaker

nacho libre wrote:

I don't think Argentina, Italy, Scotland, England and Wales playing to their full potential are as good as Ireland. I Can't see any of those teams troubling New Zealand. I think France, Australia and Ireland are the only teams that have the ability to run New Zealand close come in September.

ageed but also ad SA to that list.

damnyanks

Argentina would have a shot as well. The fact that they dont take part in a serious competition each year makes them hard to predict.

We know they are good but its difficult to measure it against teams that take part in tri / 6 nations each year.

Getting out of the group is going to be hard for Ireland, France and Argentina.

Chucky the tree

nacho libre wrote:

I don't think Argentina, Italy, Scotland, England and Wales playing to their full potential are as good as Ireland. I Can't see any of those teams troubling New Zealand. I think France, Australia and Ireland are the only teams that have the ability to run New Zealand close come in September.

Argentina would have a very good chance. I wouldnt rule out wales or England either. Wales have showed that when they have a fully fit squad they are excellent. Although their coach is terrible, he really retricts there chances.

England got lucky in the 6 nations with injury. They stumbled on their best squad and have a nice draw in the WC. They wont beat SA but i would give them a decent chance against the aussies or Wales. Thats not a bad road to the semi finals. Against NZ i wouldnt rule them out at that stage.

South africa are the most likely team to trouble NZ.

flsghujslkuo

Why can the Irish team destroy the english national side, but on club level be beaten so comprehensivly.

IMO, I think that it was probably the sarcifice of club rugby for international benifit, having watch the games at the weekend the llanelli and wasps teams looked so much sharper than the Irish teams it was imbarrasing. Both provinces made so many mistakes all over the pitch it was disgraceful. Wasps looked like a team that actually played together week in week out and not a bunch of players brought in for the big games and expected to click with the magners league players and leinster did not; munster need a new back like.

Anyone else think that if O sullivan told O Gara kick the corners instead of running/passing we would have won every game, admitedly we wouldn't have won pretty (like against england) but why not play to the strenghts of O Connell and DOC in the lineout... we missed flannery's bullets at lineout time too. I just think the high risk stuff works very well e.g. against england/italy or if it doesn't click i.e. keep losing possesion due to knock ons etc., we play like we did against scotland. In short 'Horses for courses' we should have played the corners (the munster way) against france and we won with the backs getting possesion in the oposition 22 one line break= try.

thebaz

i sense a bit of fickleness following the weekends dissapointing results . If Irish rugby is no good , what state is Scottish rugby ? Is French rugby also doomed with no HC reps ? The reason the English teams are so strong now, is most of them have been together throughout 6 Nations , and have had continuity. Irish rugby has never been so strong , look Easterby, Reddan, Cullen Jennings are still starring, and we concentrate are resources mainly between 2 teams. ! The rest will do the Irish team no harm, and is good as the Bull, Leamy , O'Connell, need a rest before the main event in Spetember . One thing the results did show, is how important O'Driscoll and O'Connell are to Irish rugby, simply irreplaceable. But should we be scared of SA or the Pumas or France -- no -- the All Blacks are the only ones to fear . Pity though the season ended so early.

Diamondmaker

Sangre wrote:

Hayes and Hickie are the only 2 players who would possibly be finished after this world cup.

Hickie has had an outstadning season this year I know hes 31 but I think he has 1 maybe 2 more years left. He has played as well and better than any other Irish or otherwise winger this season good enough young enough:D !

Not so easy for Hayes to play past similar years.....

A short answer to the OP quest " are ireland good or bad?"

We are somewhere in the middle, closer to good, but maybe not as close as we, or the players would wish to be.

This WC and the next 1, maybe 2, seasons are the be all and end all of this squad...so many of a similar age. They all will pass their peak around the saem season or 2!

IMO next year is critical to Leinster, we have steadily improved with regards to results ( like it or not at this point it rings true ) but were caught lacking at big games. A trophy is likley to be won this year and some REAL talent coming into the pack from Leicester Irish and also this season was great experience for the 2 Munsster exiles in the pack too.
The addition of a quality pair of front row and enlisting Jack on a Jocky Wilson darts course for the summer will do us great (or Blaney on a Jocky Wilson bulking course)

I feel Munster are the team with more work to do but at least they peaked with a ERC.

Benedict XVI

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I know that they won a gland slam in ’48. I’ll Google it and if I find something other than a triple crown in the past 20 years I’ll get back to you.

Wexford won 4 football All-Irelands in a row you know, but that was 100 years ago.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I know in rugby it’s called a Test, but call it what you will it’s still a non competitive game.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

With the hype that has surrounded this current team one would expect them to have won something better than a triple crown.
With the exception of the early ‘80s and Munster in ‘06 every time an Irish rugby team has an important game to win to get them to a higher level they go and fail miserably, here are a few examples

v France 6 nations 2007 (I think I’ll add v France WC 2007 now also)
v France WC 2003
v England 6 nations 2003
v Australia WC 1991

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

thebaz

People giving out about Irish rugby now, have short memories , 10 years ago it would have been unheard of, of us beating a Southern Hemisphere team. Beating Scotland , and losing to England by less than 20 points was deemed successfulll. I remeber sometimes it was like Simon Geoghan taking on the opposition on his own . Irish rugby is in good hands, the real test will be at the World Cup, we must make it to the semis at least .

potato_man

couldn't agree with thebaz any more...

these pseudo realists and pessimists are either suffering from alzheimer's or are only old enough to remember as far back as BOD's Paris hattrick. if they're unhappy with being a world-class competitive side placing 2nd and winning TCs for the last 4 years... they must never have competed at a serious level in any sport in their lives. For Irish athletes to even compete against countries with the resources they have is a fair enough achievement. But to produce a team that plays such stirring pure running rugby and is also one of the outside bets for the WC is a phenomenal achievement that some ppl just don't get.

Sure Wales managed a freak one-off GS... but ask yourself who you'd prefer to be a supporter of over the last 4 years and going into this WC? Similarly those who play up this other realist-pessimist attitude that we don't stand a chance at the WC are talking complete sh*te. Having only just missed out on the GS this year - while not even reaching top form - the Irish are of course one of the outside chances for a WC upset... if we're not then who is! better still, why bother holding the WC at all... lets just give it to the ABs!!

And then if we do manage something amazing this Autumn, I'm sure all these realist-pessimists will then be telling us that we should therefore be aiming to stroll the next GS to justify that status... but that's NOT how it works for Irish sports! Surely we can be balanced enough to at least hope for attaining the ultimate achievement, while at the same time recognising that (unlike the English) we can still celebrate an admirable and competitive semi-final loss... or even giving this magnificent Kiwi side a good run in the quater final!

Irish teams like this don't come round every other year... you should probably enjoy it while ye can rather than moaning about them being inveterate losers for coming 2nd! I remember growing up thinking the Irish soccer team would always be there or there-abouts in World Cups... beware!

Snickers Man

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

We actually only won it outright twice in the 80s. Although we did share it (points difference wasn't used to separate teams level on match points then) with Francein 1983.

Since the war, we have won the Five Nations outright on six occasions. In 1948 (Grand Slam), 1949 (Triple Crown) 1951 (draw with Wales stymied us) 1974 (with only seven points a draw with Wales and a defeat to France) 1982 (Triple Crown) and 1985 (Triple Crown + draw with France).

We haven't yet made it in the Six Nations but since the start of that tournament, we have been the second most consistent team in Europe (just behind France) having played 40 6N matches and won 29 of them.

Benedict XVI

Snickers Man wrote:

We haven't yet made it in the Six Nations but since the start of that tournament, we have been the second most consistent team in Europe (just behind France) having played 40 6N matches and won 29 of them.

If that is not the definition of mediocrity I don’t know what is

funky penguin

Benedict XVI wrote:

If that is not the definition of mediocrity I don’t know what is

Mediocrity is the state of bare minimum adequacy. Is that how you would describe this Irish team? Barely scraping through?