Should sex offenders be allowed in church?

sex_offender

Should sex offenders be allowed in church?

As a convicted sex offender I was wondering what your views are. Perhaps this issue has a special resonance since much of the public discussion about sexual offenses against children in Ireland has revolved about the role of the Roman Catholic church in the matter.

This has been a matter of debate on USA noticeboards and on American blogs since the appearance in the US news media a few weeks ago of news stories concerning the presence in sex offenders in churches who had made their presence known to the congregations concerned, in particular this story:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070317-9999-1n17pliska.html

and here again:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20070314-9999-1n14church.html

Juza1973

Obviously if someone comes to the Church confessing that he is a (past) sex-offender people will look at them with suspect, but all kind of people should be accepted to Church. And if someone goes to the Church confessing this kind of things the danger he poses is limited by the fact he confessed, even thought I understand that there could rbe understandable resistance from families with childrens.

philologos

It's a very difficult issue. I'd say that sex offenders should be welcomed back into the community, if they are truly sorry for what they did. It is what Christ would do.

Excelsior

Yes. And welcomed as full human beings.

There are obviously some aspects of community with which they cannot fully participate (they won't be Sunday School teachers or Womens' Retreat Co-ordinators) but church is for everyone, including people society would prefer to disregard.

sex_offender

Accepting sex offenders in church must be very difficult for many who have been victims of sexual abuse / assault. This was one of the issues facing Pilgrim Church (see my post starting the thread) and how do you deal with the fears of parents?

From my experience I have found a reluctance to deal with issues surrounding human sexuality in church. In this the church is I think mirroring the denial and double standards of 'the world' on these issues. Try and talk forthrightly about sexual or porn addictions in church and I guess many will be squirming uneasily in the pews.

I have met gay men who struggling with their sexuality have told no one in their congregation about their struggles for fear (often well founded) of the reaction they will get.

I cannot imagine a congregation of any significant size that will not include not only victims of sexual abuse but also porn and sex addicts as well as sex offenders - even if the offenders have not been 'found out'.

My experience as a sex offender, leaving aside the personal issues that I and my family have had to work through, has made me conscious about how the church (and as I think of the church in its universal sense here as well as specific congregations and denominations) deals or does not deal with sexuality, child and public safety, forgiveness.

I feel reluctant to even mention the word forgiveness at all as it seems to me to be so abused and misunderstood, at least in terms of its Biblical use.

Any thoughts?

Well as long as they are not in danger of re-offending and realise what they did was so sickenly vile.I don't think it should be a problem.
Obviously if you don't believe what you did was wrong,then you should not go.

sex_offender

Excelsior wrote:

Yes. And welcomed as full human beings.

There are obviously some aspects of community with which they cannot fully participate (they won't be Sunday School teachers or Womens' Retreat Co-ordinators) but church is for everyone, including people society would prefer to disregard.

BTW Excelsior, do not assume that sex offenders are all male. Maybe some female sex offenders would be unsuitable as Men's Retreat Co-ordinators.

philologos

sex_offender wrote:

BTW Excelsior, do not assume that sex offenders are all male. Maybe some female sex offenders would be unsuitable as Men's Retreat Co-ordinators.

I've never heard of any female ones, but you do have a point it is possible that they exist.

Michael G

sex_offender wrote:

Should sex offenders be allowed in church?

Do you mean, should sex offenders be allowed to come to church and take part in worship and (to use the Catholic terminology that I am familiar with) receive the Sacraments?

Of course they should. Why not? It is a sin like any other sin; worse than most but still just another sin. I have plenty sins of my own. If the offender has repented, and made a sincere promise to God not to offend again (those are also indispensable requirements of a Catholic Confession), then he or she is as welcome in church as any other sinner trying to keep from sinning again. Coming to church may well help the offender to keep his or her good resolutions. (Or if I may once again sound the Catholic note - because I don't know whether the poster is Catholic or Protestant - the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Communion will give someone who is genuinely repentant some extra strength to keep straight.)

sex_offender

Jakkass wrote:

I've never heard of any female ones, but you do have a point it is possible that they exist.

Jackass I am surprised, female offenders are a minority but very real nevertheless.

The link below gives and example. It is an American, and it only includes female teachers having sex with their students, but it is a start, check it out:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53859

And I know some men out there will think of the idea of a teenage boy having sex with his teacher as an adolescent fantasy come true but remember that men who do this with their adolescent pupils are quickly labeled by the popular press as 'paedophiles' - a term that is technically incorrect but which does serve to demonise and curse them (with, I would say, many of the Biblical connotations of these terms). These are all sex offenders.

Would most parents of a 13 or 14 year old boy be willing to let his or her son into Sunday school with one of these women or with a woman who they thought was likely to behave like this? How do you feel or think about it?

sex_offender

Michael G wrote:

Do you mean, should sex offenders be allowed to come to church and take part in worship and (to use the Catholic terminology that I am familiar with) receive the Sacraments?

Of course they should. Why not? It is a sin like any other sin; worse than most but still just another sin. I have plenty sins of my own. If the offender has repented, and made a sincere promise to God not to offend again (those are also indispensable requirements of a Catholic Confession), then he or she is as welcome in church as any other sinner trying to keep from sinning again. Coming to church may well help the offender to keep his or her good resolutions. (Or if I may once again sound the Catholic note - because I don't know whether the poster is Catholic or Protestant - the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Communion will give someone who is genuinely repentant some extra strength to keep straight.)

FYI I am a Prod.

Coming to church is important to the rehabilitation of sex offenders. Indeed the safest place from the community's point of view to have sex offenders is to have them integrated into the community, engaged in meaningful work, and in relationship with family and friends who know their story, to whom they are accountable, who are informed and watchful for signs that they might be about to re-offend and who are realistically hopeful for the offender's rehabilitation. From my own experience the spiritual dimension of this is essential, and as some one struggles to follow Jesus, I know that I can only do this in community.

Contrary to public perception most sex offenders once caught do not re-offend. However the term sex offender encompasses a very wide sweep of offenses and it does include some very dangerous people.

However I would like you to read the links that I provided in my original post opening this thread. Here you had a recidivist offender who was open with the pastor of his church about his offenses. When the pastor opened this to his congregation he had not counted on:

- the number of abuse victims that were in his congregation
- the fact that many of these had very understandable feelings of anger and fear about the offender stemming from their own abuse
- the hysteria about sex offenders that existed in the community surrounding the church, in particular the school attached to the church (my own children attend a school with a similar relationship to an attached school on adjoining grounds).

The offender as a result of his honesty in opening to the congregation about his offenses lost his job and was evicted from his home.

Not a good outcome all round. Nothing here to encourage sex offenders to be honest about their sins and to seek support in their rehabilitation.

It also shows the extent to which the church is not dealing with the pain felt by victims of sexual abuse - and there must be some of them even now reading this thread.

So how should Christians be dealing with this in their congregations?

philologos

Christians should be wary perhaps. Although if you are truly sorry for your mistake, which I am sure you are considering that you are turning to Christ and His church for forgiveness. I'm a Prod also (Anglican) and I'm sure that you would be welcomed back into His Church, however that isn't going to stop people being wary around you. Do you mind me asking if it was child abuse or raping a woman? (You don't have to answer that if you don't feel comfortable).

Fanny Cradock

First and foremost, God would certainly welcome anyone who seeks him and would rejoice at their arrival. This, however, would mean having a sincere desire - with Gods support - to change. Easier said than done of course!

If a person is to follow the tenets of Christianity, forgiveness is one of the key beliefs. Whether the congregation is Christian enough to welcome a person is an entirely different matter. Christians should be practising what they preach, yet often they don't. However, reluctance to accept someone into the fold is understandable if they think that they, their loved ones or their children could be in danger. As difficult as it is for humans to accept, God doesn't have a hierarchy of sins... they are all the same in his eyes.

If someone doesn't trust themselves in certain situations, or if others don't feel comfortable around them, there may be ways around this. For instance, it may be possible to attend a bible study with people willing to accept the person is genuinely trying to change. The notion that getting close to God can only happen on a Sunday in a service led by a man (usually) in funny robes all located in a specified building is nothing but a construct of man.

I think that God can change anyone for the better, but they have to be willing to change.

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote:

The notion that getting close to God can only happen on a Sunday in a service led by a man (usually) in funny robes all located in a specified building is nothing but a construct of man.

I think that God can change anyone for the better, but they have to be willing to change.

Amen to that!

I think another point to make, is that the former offender must empathise with others also. E.G. If for arguements sake it was the rape of a child. I could forgive if I thought the individual was repentant and truly sorry. However, I would never risk my children being alone with them. I cannot read the hearts of men, so I must remain vigilent. The former offender must accept this as a consequence of such an abominable act. Only he and God will know truly, if there is real repentance there. That should be good enough for the former offender, as he knows that the congregation will be concerned for their loved ones. He will also be safe in the knowledge that God forgives the repentant heart, so whatever trials he faces, God is his only true judge.

Sangre

Tbh, I don't see what place it is of the congregation to say who can and can't attend Church.

philologos

^^ I can't either actually.

sex_offender

Sangre wrote:

Tbh, I don't see what place it is of the congregation to say who can and can't attend Church.

I disagree strongly. It is their place and no one else's. Who else will decide? Surely the 'church' - the people of God gathered - is the congregation. In the case of the Pilgrim Church (see my introductory post to this thread) the pastor sought to make the decision and the consequences were:

_ a substantial number of his congregation left
- the sex offender had to leave

For better or worse this is something the congregation has to get to grips with.

I am struck though by how people are responding to this thread. The emphasis in many of the responses in on whether I (the sex offender) is repentant or not and later maybe on what sort of accountability the offender is willing to accept. And that is concern is fair enough. There are two sides to this though - the other being how the congregation going to act.

In the case of the Pilgrim Church - a church which by press accounts emphasized its openness to all - the offender was open about his past offenses and had accepted very clear accountability and supervision boundaries. Yet despite this the congregation found it difficult to accept him, the church community was split, the resulting publicity led to the offender being publically named in local news media and eventually in national new media, he lost his job and was evicted from his home. And of course the victims of his crime had to endure seeing the perpetrator of the abuse committed against them named over the press possibly triggering further reminders of the pain and abuse they had suffered.

Do you really think that it would be different in Ireland?

It is clear from the Scripture that Jesus preached and acted a radical inclusivity and that forgiveness was absolutely central and foundational to his ministry and so following this central to the lives of all those who would be his disciples. However the 'church', (i.e. 'Christians' - sorry for the inverted commas but I truly have problems in defining who or what a Christian is) really seem to struggle with this especially when it comes to issues about sex, and not just sex offenders. Why is this? Should anything be done about it?

In view of the likely fall out from having a sex offender in your church, really - think about it, should we be allowed in your church?

Sangre

sex_offender wrote:

I disagree strongly. It is their place and no one else's. Who else will decide?

Eh...God? Who are they to cast judgement alone? Who are they to deny him repenting his sin's to God?

In the case of the Pilgrim Church (see my introductory post to this thread) the pastor sought to make the decision and the consequences were:

_ a substantial number of his congregation left
- the sex offender had to leave

The actions of one church alone does not make it a valid position, either morally or theologically. Let the congregation leave, no one is forcing them to. However, they seek to force the offender away from Church. Clearly the former is the lesser evil.

'Judge not lest ye be Judged' (or something). Tbh, such actions of denying church access, let alone the chance of forgiveness are utterly repugnant to the teaching's of Jesus.

JimiTime

I don't think its a matter of should they be allowed here or there. Its what should a Christian do. The message is clear. Forgive, just as God forgives you. However, this does not mean that people should then be careless regards the offender. As I said, one can forgive a child rapist, but you would still not either tempt the former ofender nor risk a child by leaving them in a precarious situation together. It shouldn't become a witch hunt. this is more to do with people than entrance into a building.

sex_offender

God decides who can be in the congregation - well He does not. The Lord will separate the wheat from the chaff and the goats from the sheep, He alone knows what is in a person's heart. And He operates an open table and he associates our forgiveness of others with His forgiveness of us. He wants to see sinners, including people like me, brought into His Kingdom and welcomed by his disciples.

But humans have to assent to this.

So the only way that a sex offender (or anyone else for that matter) can join a congregation of the church and become part of its community is for the congregation to assent to it. The congregation decides, not God. God may decide who should belong. The congregation decides who does belong. They have to assent to God's will.

So the question I put - 'Should sex offenders be allowed in church' - is not asked in terms of what should happen but in the context of what does happen. In answers that question the answer might address what should or might be done about any divergence between what should and does happen and why this divergence exits.

Again look at the case of the Pilgrim church (again see links at my first post on the thread):

- many in the congregation left
- the sex offender was told don't come back until the issue is sorted
- the case generates widespread publicity
- victims of the offender see the story of the person who perpetrated the abuse against them plastered over the national news media probably awakening memories of the pain he inflicted on them
- the anger and pain of sexual abuse victims in the church congregation is exposed - maybe in some cases a good thing if appropriate support is available, but otherwise?
- the sex offender, given the publicity following his openness with the church about who he is, looses his job and is evicted from his home
- the inability of the church congregation to handle the situation calls into question the ministry of the church

The final point, if it was addressed, might make the whole thing worthwhile. But simply saying God tells us to forgive does not address the real issues of how fallen and broken people respond to this very challenging situation within the context of their communal life as followers of Jesus.

In the light of how the situation actually is, not how God intends it to be, should sex offenders be allowed to attend church?

As a sex offender, looking at it from the other side of the divide, asking myself, "Should sex offenders go to church?" - I think the answer is no. I do not want to walk into a situation like Pilgrim church. I am just wondering how from the church goers point of view it panned out?

Sangre

sex_offender wrote:

So the only way that a sex offender (or anyone else for that matter) can join a congregation of the church and become part of its community is for the congregation to assent to it. The congregation decides, not God. God may decide who should belong. The congregation decides who does belong. They have to assent to God's will.

So the question I put - 'Should sex offenders be allowed in church' - is not asked in terms of what should happen but in the context of what does happen. In answers that question the answer might address what should or might be done about any divergence between what should and does happen and why this divergence exits.

What should happen in the context of what does happen? What does that mean exactly? Either something does or it doesn't happened. Its a closed question which you can't reopen with the prefix 'should'. If a number of scenarios happen than I choose the one which I think is theoretically correct.
Tbh, I don't see why you seek to inhibit the debate like this. Especially with such an open thread title.

You also haven't shown whether the example given in the 'Pilgrim Church' is what 'does happen' rather than what 'happened once'. If its only the former than my original opinion is still quite valid in the context of the thread. If you show it always happen the same in every Church than you might have a point.

In the light of how the situation actually is, not how God intends it to be, should sex offenders be allowed to attend church?

Yes, their reactions can't not take away the teachings of Jesus. While reasonable precautions can be put in place they are in no position to deny him Church or confession. If they do then they need to be told again what they're supposed to believe in. I wouldn't stand idly by if a black man (or whatever) caused a similar ruckus to the congregation. Their strong reactions do not validate their position nor would they change my mind. Even if I knew all the above would happen again I still say they should be allowed attend (whether they choose to is a different matter).

sex_offender

Sangre wrote:

If they do then they need to be told again what they're supposed to believe in. I wouldn't stand idly by if a black man (or whatever) caused a similar ruckus to the congregation. Their strong reactions do not validate their position nor would they change my mind. Even if I knew all the above would happen again I still say they should be allowed attend (whether they choose to is a different matter).

Wow ... .. "They need to be told again what they are supposed to believe in"? Who are you to say what they are 'supposed' to believe in.

OK, I am a convicted sex offender, a very well publicised case, main evening news on RTE, TV3, BBC NI, UTV, sort of stuff. But I imagine that if I was a victim rather than a perpetrator of sexual abuse and you came and lectured me about what I was 'supposed' to believe in regarding forgiveness and somehow then I was supposed to overcome all the unresolved feelings of fear, self - loathing, anger and so on that might be triggered by having a sex offender worship in the same congregation as me just like that, I suspect that I would be extremely angry. It is a bit like telling some one whose child has just died that they should snap out of what ever negative feelings they have and be joyful because their child has just gone to heaven. The pain does not just go away because you know that you are supposed to believe in forgiveness. What support do congregations give sexual abuse victims? Forgiveness might be a life long struggle (it is for me, put me in a room full of Irish mothers as see my reaction - I hate mammys!!, big time), I think the Lord will look on that struggle with compassion - if he doesn't I am in big trouble.

For me the case of the Pilgrim church raises these kinds of issues. I have yet to come across a congregation of any denomination that dealt in the radical and compassionate way I think Jesus intended with these sort of issues. Forgiveness is central to the Gospel. Yet the really nitty gritty aspects of it are rarely built into the culture of congregations.

As to whether the case of the Pilgrim Church congregation can be used to represent the likely reaction of church congregations in Ireland - I suspect it does but I do not know. Maybe you know better than me - seriously, do you?

Sangre

I don't know you, I'm not sure how I could know if I knew better than you. I think its easy and straight forward to tell people what they're supposed to believe;

A: 'Hi I'm a Roman Catholic but I don't believe Jesus Christ was the messiah'
B: 'ehhh...aren't you supposed to?'

I not demanding these beliefs off anyone, nor am I judging people for having them. I'm simply stating the theological reality that if you claim to be a follower of a certain church then you're supposed to believe or follow certain doctrines.

philologos

"I'm simply stating the theological reality that if you claim to be a follower of a certain church then you're supposed to believe or follow certain doctrines."

Totally agree, hence it's the people who are having a problem. Jesus reached out to so many different people, even those that people disliked. e.g Zacheus, the greedy tax collector. If people don't accept you back into the Christian faith, then they are hypocritical imo. Just as Sangre said, you have to practise what you preach basically.

PDN

Sangre wrote:

Eh...God? Who are they to cast judgement alone? Who are they to deny him repenting his sin's to God?



The actions of one church alone does not make it a valid position, either morally or theologically. Let the congregation leave, no one is forcing them to. However, they seek to force the offender away from Church. Clearly the former is the lesser evil.

'Judge not lest ye be Judged' (or something). Tbh, such actions of denying church access, let alone the chance of forgiveness are utterly repugnant to the teaching's of Jesus.

Actually, the Biblical position is clearly that God has delegated to the Church the power to exclude individuals from the visible communion of the Church and to decide when they should be readmitted.

For example, Matthew 18 (interestingly, the context is just after Jesus has been speaking about the severe consequences of harming children) instructs the Church how to exercise discipline, including expulsion from the Church.

In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul instructs the Corinthian Church to expel an immoral member. Then in 2 Corinthians 2 Paul encourages the same Church to readmit a repentant sinner. Both passages only make sense if we assume that the members of the Corinthian Church had the authority to expel or readmit people into fellowship.

PDN

The issue of a sexual offender attending a church involves juggling the essential Christian concepts of love, forgiveness & restoration - but also the responsibility we have to protect & to care for the vulnerable.

Our church has a large number of children who run freely around the church premises & are not always closely supervised by their parents. If I, as a pastor, knew that a convicted pedophile wanted to join our church I would have to make the protection of children the #1 priority, especially due to the high rate of recidivism in respect to such crimes.

Therefore I would encourage the individual concerned to be a part of a small house-fellowship or cellgroup where they could get the love & support they need, but not to be present at the main Sunday worship gathering. Some might see that as judgmental & uncaring toward the individual - but we have to serve the good of the many as well.

Fanny Cradock

I think the OP and others should try to redefine their view of the church as something other than the traditional image of a building built specifically for worship. Christianity and the Church are often two entirely separate entities. I would strongly argue that sometimes the Church (and the congregation within) does (do) not serve the best interests of Jesus.

Not knowing the nature of your crimes OP, could you possibly understand that some people out there may be willing to forgive, but may also afraid that, in a moment of weakness, re-offend may happen?

This, however, is not a refusal at the door. If you still wish to attend Church, you must consider that they aren't places active only on a Sunday (I'm looking to my own non-denominational experiences here). Throughout the week there will be many meetings, studies and events where people gather together. These may be more suitable to your needs. This is really reiterating what PDN said. There may be better, more spiritually rewarding alternatives than attending what people often think of as a traditional Church service.

'Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them' Mat 18:20

You could meet in a cell group in a garden shed and that to God is the same as attending St Peter's Cathedral. Please see that as only a example, and not consignment to God's garden shed

sex_offender

PDN wrote:

especially due to the high rate of recidivism in respect to such crimes.

What basis do you have for declaring that there is a 'high recidivism rate in respect of such crimes'. Do you know what the rate of recidivism for sex offenders is? What research supports your assertion? How high has a recidivism rate to be to be declared 'high' by you?

sex_offender

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Not knowing the nature of your crimes OP, could you possibly understand that some people out there may be willing to forgive, but may also afraid that, in a moment of weakness, re-offend may happen?

FC - If you read the thread I think you will see that I am the one who to date that has been raising this issue in this thread.

sex_offender

Fanny Cradock wrote:

You could meet in a cell group in a garden shed and that to God is the same as attending St Peter's Cathedral. Please see that as only a example, and not consignment to God's garden shed

Sorry about the mis-posts - profuse apologies.

FC - No I think that is actually where I am confined. However being confined to the garden shed is better than being told to live under a bridge as happens in Florida - see here:

http://miaminewtimes.com/2007-03-08/news/swept-under-the-bridge/full#comments

I am happy to stay I the garden shed given the combination of uninformed views about sex offenders and the quite naive views of the nature of forgiveness voiced here. I would like to find a place where I belong but I would not venture into a church where the views expressed here were widespread, it would be a disaster for me and I suspect for any victims of sexual abuse about the place.

BrianCalgary

One of the problems I see in some congregations and in some people is that see Christianity as a club for people who 'have made it' as opposed to a place where the hurting and repentant can seek and find solace in Christ.

My wife runs a prayer ministry at our church focussing on prayer for our junior and senior high school kids and their leaders, one of the people we had sign up to pray was not sure if she was comfortable praying for kids who were or are facing issues such as alcohol, drugs and sex. In her mind church people don't have such issues. All to her though she has stuck with it and has been hit with reality.

Sex_offender, you would be welcome at our church, probably not in a position of leadership that could tempt you to reoffend. Just as I wouldn't bring the recovering alcoholic to a pub for a bible study. But we would love you and work with you.