2006 census results published

gurramok

Thought i'd bring thread up again as proper census results are out today http://www.cso.ie/census/Census2006_Principal_Demographic_Results.htm

Apparently 10% of the population are of foreign nationality with barely 63,000 Poles resident.

Biggest non-Irish groups are out of 419,733 people approx:
EU 25 - 275,000 Non-EU 145,000

British (including N.I.) - 122,000
Polish - 63,000
Lithuanian - 24,000
Nigerian - 16,000
Latvia - 13,000
USA - 12,000
Chinese - 11,000
Germany - 10,000

Not stated- 44,000

As a good few of those British will have Irish connections(including my own recently returned cousins), more anglo than anything else

From my rusty maths, it appears roughly around 137,000 are of eastern europe origin including new EU countries plus Romania, Russia, Ukraine.

This figure seems to be a hell of alot less than that reported in the media

What astounds me, where did the media get their figures of 200,000 Poles from?..Sensationalism??

Delboy05

gurramok wrote:

British (including N.I.) - 122,000
Polish - 63,000
Lithuanian - 24,000
Nigerian - 16,000
Latvia - 13,000
USA - 12,000
Chinese - 11,000
Germany - 10,000

...............This figure seems to be a hell of alot less than that reported in the media

What astounds me, where did the media get their figures of 200,000 Poles from?..Sensationalism??

do you really, honestly believe that there are just 11,000 chinese in ireland!!!!We know from the english schools that there are 15,000 students alone. How many of them have gone back home? And how many more adult chinese are there on top of the student numbers....estimates I read a few weeks back from some paper was that there are 100,000 chinese in the south.

And only 16,000 nigerians!!!!....despite the nigerians being the largest group of asylum seekers every year for the past 10 or so years. And practically all asylum seekers are allowed remain despite the vast vast majority failing to win their cases.

And only 63,000 poles!!! despite near 200,000 of them applying for PPS numbers!!! I did'nt know that Polands economy had taken off to such an extent that there were now jobs galore over there and everybody was returning home!!!
BBC newsnight did'nt find this a few months ago when it ran a special report on how polish companies are having to bring in Ukranian and Moldovan workers to do what jobs exist as so many 'working age' ploes have left the country. And only Ireland, the Uk and Sweden accepted them up to a few months ago, within the EU.

This census has proven to be a joke. Either:
a/ non-nationals have not filled out the census forms
b/ the figures have been doctored to fool us into thinking there is no influx of non-nationals in ireland when the dog on the street can clearly see there is.

Immigration is the biggest lie in Ireland right now, and the irish people are no where near to finding out the truth of the scale of this issue...and wont be allowed to find out

purple'n'gold

And only 16,000 nigerians!!!!....despite the nigerians being the largest group of asylum seekers every year for the past 10 or so years. And practically all asylum seekers are allowed remain despite the vast vast majority failing to win their cases.


How do we have that incredible amount of asylum seekers from Nigeria? There are no direct connections between this country and Nigeria. Therefore they have to come here from a third country. Why are they not returned to that third country immediately? I was under the impression that asylum seekers had to request asylum in the first EU country they land in.

Zambia

What immigrant in there right mind answers the census properly :rolleyes:

16,000 legal Nigerians I can believe same goes for the chinese figure.

If i was a illegal immgrant or had any reason to fear authority there is no way I would answer any census questions.

Moriarty

gurramok wrote:

What astounds me, where did the media get their figures of 200,000 Poles from?..Sensationalism??

From memory, the 200,000 poles figure was taken from the amount of PPS numbers issued to Polish Nationals since enlargement. Apparently many of them don't stay here too long.

Delboy05

Moriarty wrote:

From memory, the 200,000 poles figure was taken from the amount of PPS numbers issued to Polish Nationals since enlargement. Apparently many of them don't stay here too long.

'Apparently' !!! I find it hard to believe that 2 in every 3 Poles that came to ireland to work legally, have since left.

oscarBravo

...but you find it easy to believe that the CSO doctored the census results.




O-kaaay...

Zambia

Delboy05 wrote:

'Apparently' !!! I find it hard to believe that 2 in every 3 Poles that came to ireland to work legally, have since left.

They could have gone to the north or the UK claimed Tax numbers there and on again wherever work takes them. Besides that is is immatieral how many there are to the man on the street there is no limiting or increasing their numbers.

These figures do not seem to add up at all , however I have nothing to prove them wrong at present.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

...but you find it easy to believe that the CSO doctored the census results.

O-kaaay...

I would doubt they did however I just dont see them counting everyone of dubious immigration status. There also could be a sense of mistrust from polish nationals about the census where if there was 10 poeple in a house I think they would not have filled out the whole form including everyone in the house.

In cases where one pole was sub letting rooms to the other nine etc...

Delboy05

purplengold wrote:

How do we have that incredible amount of asylum seekers from Nigeria? There are no direct connections between this country and Nigeria. Therefore they have to come here from a third country. Why are they not returned to that third country immediately? I was under the impression that asylum seekers had to request asylum in the first EU country they land in.

we have far more than 16,000 nigerians in ireland. They make up about 60% or so of asylum seekers every year, and allthough asylum figures are down to 4-5,000 a year in total now, around 2000/2001 they were running at 15-20,000. And with practically no deportations ever from ireland and so many availing of the Irish-born baby law before it was judged, and nearly all the rest availing of the amnesty after the law came in ....it's easy to see why their population is so high.
As to why nigerians were ever allowed claim asylum here in the 1st place, considering the amount of safe counties they passed through first...thats a question for the minister of justice and the dept. And I've never heard 1 proper reason why it was happen and still is allowed to continue.

Too many bleeding hearts running the system probably...pity we did'nt have a John Howard type character in charge of that dept. for the last 10 years ...;)

lisnageragh

We actually Have

Around 1 million Migrants here upto 2006 alone.

The Census states it.

But it is hidden.

Look at the empty housing figures? 25% empty houses in Kerry etc?

I guess a few people just dint fill in the census!

According to the census under Religion, it shows a figure of 3.7 Irish people who stated there religious status.

However nearly 1 million (997611) people stated there religion. However they also stated the country they came from. And Guess what it isnt Ireland!

So in fact we have 1 million migrants here upto 2006 which is really 06re than 20% of the population or every 2-3 in 10 people.

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/PDR%202006%20Tables%2031-40.pdf Scroll down to page 7

oscarBravo

lisnageragh wrote:

However nearly 1 million (997611) people stated there religion. However they also stated the country they came from. And Guess what it isnt Ireland!

I can't see that figure in the document you linked.

InFront

lisnageragh wrote:

We actually Have
Around 1 million Migrants here upto 2006 alone.
The Census states it.
But it is hidden...
However nearly 1 million (997611) people stated there religion. However they also stated the country they came from. And Guess what it isnt Ireland!
So in fact we have 1 million migrants here upto 2006

I see that page, but whatever way you're doing the maths it isn't correct. There were a total of approx. 420,000 people in the state on that night who answered that question and were of a nationality that wasn't Irish. A further approx. 46,000 just did not reply, Irish or not.

Where are you getting one million from?

Hobbes

Zambia232 wrote:

I would doubt they did however I just dont see them counting everyone of dubious immigration status.

You should read up on how surveys work. A census is basically a survey with a larger sample. So the chances of a large deviation is quite slim to none with such a large sample of people even if not everyone in the country fills it out.

I wonder if the census had come out and showed that the figures were much much higher would the same people still be going on about some conspiracy?

MontgomeryClift

Hobbes wrote:

You should read up on how surveys work. A census is basically a survey with a larger sample. So the chances of a large deviation is quite slim to none with such a large sample of people even if not everyone in the country fills it out.

It depends on the number of forms not returned. If X forms are not returned then we're left guessing how many of these belong to foreigners. And if they're less likely to return the form then you can't just assume the unreturned are in the same ratio of foreign/Irish as the returned forms.

Does the census tell us how many forms were issued and not returned? Maybe it does but I'm not seeing it there.

OPENROAD

Delboy05 wrote:

we have far more than 16,000 nigerians in ireland. They make up about 60% or so of asylum seekers every year, and allthough asylum figures are down to 4-5,000 a year in total now, around 2000/2001 they were running at 15-20,000. And with practically no deportations ever from ireland and so many availing of the Irish-born baby law before it was judged, and nearly all the rest availing of the amnesty after the law came in ....it's easy to see why their population is so high.
As to why nigerians were ever allowed claim asylum here in the 1st place, considering the amount of safe counties they passed through first...thats a question for the minister of justice and the dept. And I've never heard 1 proper reason why it was happen and still is allowed to continue.

Too many bleeding hearts running the system probably...pity we did'nt have a John Howard type character in charge of that dept. for the last 10 years ...;)

And hope you are in favor of the Americans kicking out the illegal Irish?

purple'n'gold

Absolutely, I am 100% in favour of the Americans kicking out the illegal Irish. Illegal Irish have no right to be in the USA and should be sent home immediately.

Scigaithris

Hobbes wrote:

You should read up on how surveys work. A census is basically a survey with a larger sample. So the chances of a large deviation is quite slim to none with such a large sample of people even if not everyone in the country fills it out.

For practical purposes, this is generally the case (but is a complex issue in methodology, which may produce substantial errors for underrepresented groups).

A census is an attempt to enumerate the total population, but historically, a national census fails to accomplish this. Even over in the USA during their decade-driven census programme, the last reported to have cost them over one billion USD, the 50 state response rates ranged from just over 50 percent to a high in the 70 percentiles (see US Census Bureau for precise figures on the 2000 census). Because of the low return rates in some states, they do validation studies to determine the error between respondants and non-respondents, especially in the lower reporting states.

What may be of interest to this discussion is that just before every US census there is a flurry of scholarly papers by US demographers, political scientists, and related methodologists to get the US to drop the census method and replace it with a rigorous (and less costly) sampling of the US population. The US Census Bureau agreed with a sample in place of a census in a postion paper issued before 2000 (but it would require an amendment to the US Constitution, which now requires a census).

One of the limitations of the current census is that some groups (e.g., lower SES, racial and ethnic, illegal immigrants) have been notoriously underreported, and that a rigourous sampling method would capture (estimate and project) the statistical significance of these groups better than an expensive attempt at a census (followed by validation studies to identify representativeness, as well as error for some underrepresented groups). But in the past, their Republican Party has opposed this and their Democratic Party as favoured it (the latter tending to represent the underrepresented groups in their political platforms).

For example, one underrepresented group in past US census taking has been Native Americans, that have a strong tendency not to return the census forms mailed to them. Until the 1980 census, former validation studies were conducted by sending census field representatives to the Native American reservations (both open and closed), as well as where they thought they might live off the reservations, which can be quite substantial (According to their Bureau of Indian Affairs, there are an estimated 50,000 Native Americans in Los Angeles alone). Before 1980 a person was determined to be Native American in validation studies by observations of the census field representatives. With the 1980 US census, Native Americans were allowed to identify themselves to the field worker. Ironically, the American news media erroneously reported that there had been a Native American population explosion between the 1970 and 1980 census, when in fact it was later determined to be due to the differences in methods; i.e., field worker observation vs. self-report.

In concluding, what Hobbes says about the size of the sample in most cases is useful, but in some cases can also be subject to error of underrepresented groups (for some reason) that were excluded from the enumeration in statistically significant numbers; e.g., would immigrants with different cultural, political, racial, ethnic, or gender differences be less likely or more likely to cooperate (or be encouraged) in a census?

oscarBravo

I've split this discussion off from the original thread - it's drifting off-topic for it, and deserves a thread of its own anyway.

Hobbes

It depends on the number of forms not returned. If X forms are not returned then we're left guessing how many of these belong to foreigners. And if they're less likely to return the form then you can't just assume the unreturned are in the same ratio of foreign/Irish as the returned forms.

Actually you can. Someone who does statistics could explain it better but there is generally a certain level of sample that gives certain number deviations.

Many of the surveys of things like "76% of Irish like potatoes" (you get the drift) that would be a random sample of 1,000 people.

Scigaithris wrote:

e.g., would immigrants with different cultural, political, racial, ethnic, or gender differences be less likely or more likely to cooperate (or be encouraged) in a census?

That's the million euro question. I have yet to see evidence to it.

TBH the Irish census is 1000 times better then the US census. I was in the US during the census. The person who dropped it off just handed it to me, no instructions said someone would be around to pick it up later. Filled it out and no one turned up to pick it up. I ended up posting it in.

Irish one, guy turns up at the door hands it to me and explains in detail what I need to do, they also confirmed the person who picked up the census and the address.

Nevyn

Delboy05 wrote:

'Apparently' !!! I find it hard to believe that 2 in every 3 Poles that came to ireland to work legally, have since left.

Most are coming here for 2 to 3 years to work and then going homewith enough money saved to buy a house or start a busniess.

This is relfected in the fact that a school has been set up on dublin for polish children who are bing taught through polish the polish criculum so that there is no gap in thier education when they return to poland with their parents.

Delboy05

OPENROAD wrote:

And hope you are in favor of the Americans kicking out the illegal Irish?

100% in favour....let them come home to ireland and work where we need them. if they still want to live in america, apply for visas and dont try and be queue jumpers....

Far Corfe

11,000 Chinese in all of Ireland

Thats got to be bulls**t.

39% of new houses built between 02 and 06 unoccupied we are also told.

Guess a lot of people avoided the census. Must have been the worse census ever carried out in Ireland.

grahamo

Far Corfe wrote:

11,000 Chinese in all of Ireland

Thats got to be bulls**t.

39% of new houses built between 02 and 06 unoccupied we are also told.

Guess a lot of people avoided the census. Must have been the worse census ever carried out in Ireland.

I definitely don't believe that. I reckon there are a serious amount of unregistered landlords plus a lot of illegal immigrants afraid to fill out the census form.

I think a lot of the "un occupied" houses were occupied but people for various reasons couldn't or wouldn't answer the door.

I remember a thread here on the census for example where one boardsie related his story regarding the enumerators pathetic attempts to contact appartments.

The lifestyle today made things very difficult.

I'm of the view that the number of unoccupied houses is over estimated and am doubtfull that many enumerators went to the bother of using the law to seek tthe occupiers of some houses.It would be far simpler to just list the house as unoccupied/no response.
Enumerators weren't exactly being paid enough to make them so enthusiasticas to chase these things up I would think and I've not heard of any or too many court cases/fines.

Hobbes

that figure is going to hurt those areas later down the line when they start budgetting to see who needs resources sooner. Obviously those new estates don't need schools soon as there is no one there yet.

ballooba

A 15% level of vacancy for housing units does not surprise me. I know of several large apartment buildings in prime locations in Dubin which have been empty for extended periods. One on the corner of Church Street and North King Street for example.

I would also expect that the level of vacancy is highest in areas where Section 23 is available. There is nothing wrong with those houses. Businesses don't necessarily need to let them out to get benefit from them however.

MontgomeryClift

Hobbes wrote:

Actually you can. Someone who does statistics could explain it better but there is generally a certain level of sample that gives certain number deviations.

How come? I don't see how you can apply the same ratio to the unreturned forms as the returned, if a certain group is less likely to participate than another.

J.S. Pill

Tristrame wrote:

Enumerators weren't exactly being paid enough to make them so enthusiasticas to chase these things up I would think and I've not heard of any or too many court cases/fines.

The guy I had last year was practically stalking us - He just would not give up!

oscarBravo

Far Corfe wrote:

11,000 Chinese in all of Ireland

Thats got to be bulls**t.

Doubtless you'll now produce a study that was more exactingly performed than the national census, complete with methodology, to back up that assertion.

Right?

is_that_so

My own enumerator on this one also had an awful lot of problems tracking people down and ended up doing it 7 days a week. I am inclined to believe the effect of empty units.

I have a question on the census.

When will we see the meaty stuff on population growth per region, including towns and so forth?

jd

is_that_so wrote:

When will we see the meaty stuff on population growth per region, including towns and so forth?

Next month , I think.
Volume 1 - Population Classified by Area

26 Apr 07

Hobbes

MontgomeryClift wrote:

How come? I don't see how you can apply the same ratio to the unreturned forms as the returned, if a certain group is less likely to participate than another.

Because when a sample is at a certain size they can make an almost accurate answer with a smaller deviation of error. Any extra data is unlikely to deviate wildly.

Really this whole thing is a science in itself. Google it.

ardmacha

'Apparently' !!! I find it hard to believe that 2 in every 3 Poles that came to ireland to work legally, have since left.

What proportion of Irish people issued with UK tax numbers are actually currently still in the UK?

Civilian_Target

I'd say the figure's about right. Perhaps a better guide are the figures for religion: there's 86% catholic in Ireland. Given the small number (5%-10%) of non-Catholic Irish, and that maybe 1/4 immigrants mark themselves as catholic, that gives you about 11% foreigners, which is reasonably consistant with the stats. These are then concentrated usually into the major towns and cities, which combined with the high visitor/tourism figures, gives an impression of many more foreigners than there actually are.

InFront

'Apparently' !!! I find it hard to believe that 2 in every 3 Poles that came to ireland to work legally, have since left.

Even if you ignore the pretty obvious ethical barrier to using census information to target individuals who may have come to work here illegally, I'm not sure why you think there would be a cover up on their behalf? Poles have no problems locating here, nor should they, and they have nothing to gain (or lose ftm) by not filling out the form. That's my understanding anyway, maybe I'm mistaken.

Isn't it the case that Polish people (like the other E/ Europeans) have pretty much free economic migration rights into Ireland, along with most other EU states?
Apart from a paranoia about the Government, which isn't itself a Polish phenomenon, I'm not sure what motives you think they'd have in not filing census forms.

fly_agaric

Hobbes wrote:

Any extra data is unlikely to deviate wildly.

Hobbes, I'm no statistician but aren't you just assuming the extra data has a similar distribution to the rest of the population...which was kind of the point wasn't it?
(They are giving reasons as to why they think that a particular sub-population excluded by the sample taken [the census] may not be representative of the rest of the population...)

KosmaPL

as a member of Polish minority in Eire I have to say that we were also surprised that there are only 60k Poles working in here. i would say that the figure is a little higher than that ,but not as high as 200k.


IMHO the reason is just like Thaedydal said that the most are here for a few years and then they go back home to pay they mortgage quicker.


pozdrawiam - take care

sceptre

Delboy05 wrote:

And only 63,000 poles!!! despite near 200,000 of them applying for PPS numbers!!! I did'nt know that Polands economy had taken off to such an extent that there were now jobs galore over there and everybody was returning home!!!

Over half the Polish people I've been working with in the past two years ago have gone home. The upside is that I'll never have to pay for a hotel in Poland. Which should make all of you very happy.

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote:

Doubtless you'll now produce a study that was more exactingly performed than the national census, complete with methodology, to back up that assertion.

Right?

It has to be said that people on one side are accused of assumptions while people on another who make statements like "most only come here for a short while and head home" are not asked for any evidence to back this up. Didnt the chinese themselves estimate 100,000 were living in Ireland, or maybe even Dublin (Id go with the Ireland figure, it varies by area of Dublin but Id reckon theyre about 5% of the total)

As for the Nigerian figure, Id reckon there is at least three quarter that amt in Dublin 15 alone (awaits the "you can tell Nigerians apart from other Africans?" comment).

As for the motivation for the clearly inaccurate figures, Id put it down less to a conspiracy and more to a mix of lack of sufficient English to fill it out, perhaps paranoia by some groups re governments holding their personal details, and the CSO being just another useless government dept.

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote:

It has to be said that people on one side are accused of assumptions while people on another who make statements like "most only come here for a short while and head home" are not asked for any evidence to back this up.

Um, no. In this particular case, the national census is the evidence to back it up.

Tha Gopher wrote:

Didnt the chinese themselves estimate 100,000 were living in Ireland, or maybe even Dublin (Id go with the Ireland figure, it varies by area of Dublin but Id reckon theyre about 5% of the total)

That's nice. What methodology was used to arrive at this figure? Obviously it was a more exacting, thorough and scientific study than the census. Right?

Tha Gopher wrote:

As for the Nigerian figure, Id reckon there is at least three quarter that amt in Dublin 15 alone

Interesting. What methology did you use to arrive at that number?

Tha Gopher wrote:

(awaits the "you can tell Nigerians apart from other Africans?" comment).

Good question - can you?

Hobbes

Tha Gopher wrote:

As for the motivation for the clearly inaccurate figures, Id put it down less to a conspiracy and more to a mix of lack of sufficient English to fill it out

You do know that the census forms were supplied in Arabic, Chinese, Czech, French, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Spanish and English.

Also the official language of Nigeria is English.

brianthebard

InFront wrote:

Even if you ignore the pretty obvious ethical barrier to using census information to target individuals who may have come to work here illegally, I'm not sure why you think there would be a cover up on their behalf? Poles have no problems locating here, nor should they, and they have nothing to gain (or lose ftm) by not filling out the form. That's my understanding anyway, maybe I'm mistaken.

Isn't it the case that Polish people (like the other E/ Europeans) have pretty much free economic migration rights into Ireland, along with most other EU states?
Apart from a paranoia about the Government, which isn't itself a Polish phenomenon, I'm not sure what motives you think they'd have in not filing census forms.

Yes we put no restrictions on immigration from the newer member states but only Ireland, the Uk and Spain or Italy (can't remember which) did this, all other "old EU" states have some restrictions, some states have quite a few.

Victor

On the Chinese thing, you might get that impression fromthe number of cashiers in shops, etc., but looking in a pub earlier, all the faces were very white, customers and staff.

Delboy05

Tha Gopher wrote:

Didnt the chinese themselves estimate 100,000 were living in Ireland, or maybe even Dublin (Id go with the Ireland figure, it varies by area of Dublin but Id reckon theyre about 5% of the total)

at the chinese new year celebrations in dublin a few weeks back, the organisers and communtiy leaders said that there were about 100,000 chinese now living in ireland.
I would love to see how many visas are issued to Chinese every year, especially students. Anywhere where those stats could be obtained?

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote:

Um, no. In this particular case, the national census is the evidence to back it up. That's nice. What methodology was used to arrive at this figure? Obviously it was a more exacting, thorough and scientific study than the census. Right? Interesting. What methology did you use to arrive at that number? Good question - can you?

Im sorry but the pettyness in that response is simply too much. Im sorry Oscar but I really have to ask, do you believe that the census is reasonably accurate?

Anyway, in response

1- Yes, the census would appear to suggest that it would be the case. Government reports have suggested lots of things over the years. In the past they have suggested Iraq had WMDs, and that British beef in the 90s was safe to eat. Hell, most government surveys seem to suggest that the proportion of people who have ever taken an illegal drug is still under 50%. Go figure.

2- Common sense

3- As above

4- Well, the immigration figures would seem to suggest most West Aficans here are Nigerian. Seeing as West Africans look about as much like Somalis or South Africans as Swedes look like Greeks, again its common sense call. Particularly seeing that of all the West Africans Ive worked with, went to school with, hung out with, been neighbours with, you name it with, a grand total of one was not Nigerian (Sierra Leone). Therefore, if you reckon that around 10% of an area of Dublin is West African, it is probably correct to assume, based on the above evidence, that the majority are from Nigeria . Certainly there are older working class areas of Dublin which seem to have barely any foreigners (Finglas, Cabra, Ballyfermot etc), but in terms of the day to day visual evidence in the newer suburbs the census is years out.


Vctor- I worked with alot of Chinese back in the day. Generally speaking their only vices are smoking and gambling. Apart from the odd bottle of wine most of them didnt go out drinking more than twice per year. Also, alot more Chinese than other groups work minimum wage jobs (food service etc) and therefore dont have the spending money if they want to take a lump home (as well as the obvious cost difference in a Chinese man visiting home compared to a Pole etc)


Hobbes- I didnt know that. However IIRC the standard form was in English and Irish, and presumably you had to make some special effort by calling up the CSO if the person delivering had dropped the standard one in the door. Which tbh I doubt most people bothered doing.

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote:

Im sorry but the pettyness in that response is simply too much. Im sorry Oscar but I really have to ask, do you believe that the census is reasonably accurate?

Yes. Why? For the simple reason that a census is, by definition, a more methodical (and therefore more likely to be accurate) method of assessing population statistics than:

Tha Gopher wrote:

...the day to day visual evidence in the newer suburbs...

I'm reminded vaguely of the cheese ad: "There's literally millions of things you can do with it - sandwiches, on toast... sandwiches..."

Tha Gopher wrote:

Government reports have suggested lots of things over the years.

You keep suggesting that the CSO have deliberately falsified the census results, without bothering to offering anything that remotely resembles evidence.

Tha Gopher wrote:

2- Common sense

3- As above

That's a wonderfully thorough and scientific methodology you're using there. Let's not bother with a census in future; we'll just ask a few randoms in the street what their common sense tells them about the population.

Tha Gopher

Oh Jesus H Christ

If you bothered reading my first post in this thread I said that I wasnt of the opinion that the survey had been falsified by the government (although with your defensive posts I am now wondering whether you are the director of the CSO and you actually are hdiing something :rolleyes: ) As said previously, I think its less conspiracy and more just laziness by the CSO.

So observation counts for nothing? If someone were were to ask you what proportion of your workplace is foreign, would you give a rough answer percentage wise or refuse to answer the question on account that management has never done a survey of the national origins of staff? Im sorry but I have to be honest and say outright that I do not believe you when you say you largely believe the results of the census, as I simply find it impossible to fathom that anyone with an ounce of wit could think it is accurate. You dont have to review the met office annual reports 2002-2006 to deduce Ireland has rough winters and occasionally great summers. You know it from common sense. So use it.

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote:

If you bothered reading my first post in this thread I said that I wasnt of the opinion that the survey had been falsified by the government (although with your defensive posts I am now wondering whether you are the director of the CSO and you actually are hdiing something :rolleyes: ) As said previously, I think its less conspiracy and more just laziness by the CSO.

You can keep saying it and saying it and saying it, but it's not going to become true until you produce something more concrete than a gut feeling to contradict a detailed study.

Tha Gopher wrote:

So observation counts for nothing? If someone were were to ask you what proportion of your workplace is foreign, would you give a rough answer percentage wise or refuse to answer the question on account that management has never done a survey of the national origins of staff?

My workplace consists of 28.6% English people, with the remainder being Irish. I don't need to give a rough answer; I've counted them.

Now, if someone was to tell me that surely that couldn't be right based on the fact that they've met two of my English colleagues and me, and sure can't the dogs in the street use their common sense and figure out that the company is obviously two thirds English - how many times would they have to repeat it before it becomes true?

Tha Gopher wrote:

Im sorry but I have to be honest and say outright that I do not believe you when you say you largely believe the results of the census, as I simply find it impossible to fathom that anyone with an ounce of wit could think it is accurate.

I'm not sure whether I'm being accused of lying or stupidity, but I'm not going to pass too much heed either way until you offer some factual evidence to back up your position.

Tha Gopher wrote:

You dont have to review the met office annual reports 2002-2006 to deduce Ireland has rough winters and occasionally great summers. You know it from common sense. So use it.

Suppose I want to know exactly how many days of rain there were in Belmullet in the period 2002-2006. What answer does your common sense give you? If you were to guesstimate the answer, and I got a different answer by researching it through Met Éireann, would you accuse Met Éireann of laziness?

LouiseIV

There are two points that I don't think have been considered so far. For a start, the census is about a year old and so it really only covers the population as it was a year ago. As the population is increasing so rapidly, any census carried out now is likely to be out of date after only a few months. To get a more up to date snapshot of the population we're going to have to wait until the past year's immigration figures are released and then add those to the non-national figure in this census.

Another point, in working out the non-national figure, I don't think the census includes the Irish-born children of the non-nationals in the non-national figure itself. It would be interesting to know whether they're included in the Irish category.

gurramok wrote:

British (including N.I.) - 122,000

God almighty! Since when has an ROI government started considering people up in the north as British? Gerry must be fuming.

Even more unforgivable - they're included under the Non-Irish category!

Not stated- 44,000

That's interesting. Why would someone a) not state their nationality and b) get away with not stating their nationality. I can understand people not stating their religion but why would they have reason not to state their nationality?

Chinese - 11,000

That cannot be right. 11,000 out of a population of 4.1 million? That would mean only one Chinese person out of every around 370 people in the country. For some reason it just seems a lot more than that.

Nigerian - 16,000

Something tells me that that figure of 44,000 non-stated people is made up of alot of Poles and Nigerians.

What astounds me, where did the media get their figures of 200,000 Poles from?..Sensationalism??

I think those figures probably comes from all the PPS numbers issued to non-nationals.

lisnageragh wrote:

Around 1 million Migrants here upto 2006 alone.

The Census states it.

I wasn't able to find that 1 million figure in the report you linked to but you might not be entirely off the mark either.

There's a book out now with information on the issues behind the coming general election. You probably know the one - it has Bertie Ahern's beautiful face on the front. I was in a bookshop the other week and I was having a quick flick through it. It has a chapter on immigration and it mentioned a figure of 750 thousand immigrants coming here over the last few years.

Tha Gopher

oscarBravo wrote:

You can keep saying it and saying it and saying it, but it's not going to become true until you produce something more concrete than a gut feeling to contradict a detailed study. My workplace consists of 28.6% English people, with the remainder being Irish. I don't need to give a rough answer; I've counted them.

Good for you. I could be troll like and demand to see a copy of a proper survey carried out by managemen using yadda yadda methodology but Ill accept your headcount.

oscarBravo wrote:

Now, if someone was to tell me that surely that couldn't be right based on the fact that they've met two of my English colleagues and me, and sure can't the dogs in the street use their common sense and figure out that the company is obviously two thirds English - how many times would they have to repeat it before it becomes true?

Anyone who would judge on having seen two people is clearly an idiot. That example is so far out it doesnt even deserve reading.

oscarBravo wrote:

I'm not sure whether I'm being accused of lying or stupidity?

With all due respect I am of the personal opinion it is the first. Im sorry but I fail to see how anyone with common sense could honestly, truly believe the results.