Rifle hunting for vermin

stevoman

hi,
its spring time now and the need to use my shotgun for hunting is getting less and less. i have my brno .22 rifle but its just not the right time for rabbits yet, so im started to try and shoot vermin for a while. does anyone know the best techniques for shooting vermin i.e geycrows, crows and rats. i sat in a ditch yesterday evening well camo'd and hidden for up to two hours overlooking a freshly ploughed field and i left about a quater pound of mince about 60 yards away whick looked like an eaten carcass and not a thing landed to take a bite. does anybody have any good tips and techniques they would like to share???

Vegeta

This is a great post as I was thinking the very same thing myself.

I went out saturday during the day and put the bait out and spent about an hour and a half there and nothing came in either.

I could just use an owl decoy and a crow caller but that's a shotgun game whereas i'd like to get the use of the .22lr for a bit of hunting.

Umiq88

Is the rifle a brno or CZ i know some people think they are the same but they're not.

As vegeta said owl decoys are great for crows as is a dead carcass or even a bag of grain left out.

The most effective way is ambushing which is what your dong at the moment. Remember that crows have excellent sight so make sure not to move at all.

Electronic callers are a really good wy of getting them in at all but pretty costly the lockvogel caller is nearly 200 but they are very good.

Most important thing is putting your bait/decoys out where you know there are crows you want to look across fields and see where the crows are and setup there

stevoman

no its definitly a bruno. i usually shoot pidgeon and crows around the area i was yesterday and get an average of 3 or 4 shots off on an average evening with the shotgun, but as i said im going to put that awat for the summer. i used a quater ounce of mince which does look like an eaten carcas when you spread it out so it should work as a good bait but for the couple of hours i waited nothing came in. this was from about 5pm until 7. the late evenings are great now. what are the best ways to lure out rats and where are the best places to look? ps - do farmers generally be glad to see people shooting vermin on their land?

Umiq88

Depend on what crops they have but generally farmers will welcome you but not everyone is going to let some lad out with a gun on his property normally once you get one and are there for a while the word spreads out and you'll get more.

What model brno do you have? will be 1,2,3,4 or 5
would love to see a few pics of it

stevoman

i couldnt tell you to be honest what model it is. bought it from jim griffen the gun dealer in rahen in offaly. he has a god selsction there and he also has the rifle range. from what i have seen from other brno its seems to be the regular model as most people have. my friend has the manum model but i fingd the impractical for small game which is why i have mine. i dont have any pics of it at the moment. rabbit population around co laois seems to be very low which means for a good hunting trip you have to take off to offaly and westmeath early for a good mornings shooting

Vegeta

psittacosis wrote:

As vegeta said owl decoys are great for crows as is a dead carcass or even a bag of grain left out.

Electronic callers are a really good wy of getting them in at all but pretty costly the lockvogel caller is nearly 200 but they are very good.

I have one of those callers and what I find is that they do indeed bring the crows in from a long way but they will fly around and never land. Grand for shotgun, not so for rifle

Will try it again soon and report back

stevoman

i hear oven chips are supposed to be great for magpies. i dont know how but i read it somewhere recently

bullets

psittacosis wrote:

Is the rifle a brno or CZ i know some people think they are the same but they're not.

I am interested in finding out......
What are the differences and how can you tell ?
I bought mine from Jim/Mary and he said it was a Brno as they
were better than the CZ.

Lots of Info on CZ on the web but found very little on Brno.
Only thing I thought was that its the same rifle just made in
a different factory.

Got more info?

~B

stevoman

i found this aswell. firearms seem to be hard to look into thoroughly on the web i find. i have a pedretti shotgun and couldnt find out anything about it on the web at all apart from the artistic design on the gun which is of no interest to me to be honest. my brno says its made in the chech republic so it does. jim and mary seem to be very helpful people though

stevoman

still to the point i might head out this evening with the rifle again for an hour or two to have a crack at a greycrow or any vermin im lucky enough to come across. i need some good tips though that can help me lure in whatever vermin are around to shoot and maybe do the landowner a favour in the meantime.

Umiq88

I dont know a huge amount of info on it but could point you in the right direction but basically brno where the original design i think they started manufacturing the mod 1's in the 1950 theres alot of history attached but they made some very nice firearms they eventually went bankrupt in the 80's i think where CZ came in and bought them out and CZ started producing rifles of the same design with their badge on it the early CZ's from around 1983 to 88 used mainly brno parts but the modern CZ are all manufactured by CZ they still use the same design and are an excellent gun but the old brno's were just that bit better more care was taken when making them higher quaility parts everything was made out of steal.

The model should be stamped on the top of the barrel and the year of manufacture will be on the left hand side of the reciever closest to the barrel.

I've recently just bought a Brno 581 made in 1970 waiting for the license to come through but i cant wait to get it they really made some very nice guns.

Vegeta

well put simply bait on its own is not good enough as crows might not ever fly over it to see it

so calling might get their attention and bring them towards the bait. Decoys might work but again he has to land (for a shot with the rifle anyway) and might be put off staying around by a fake plastic crow.

Oh and starting where there are lots of crows anyway is always good, near farmyards etc

let us know how you get on though

stevoman

yeah thanks vegeta i'l head out for a bit this evening and see what happens. i might try bread instead of mince today and try and watch the fly path of the crows to see if that improves anything. if i have any joy i'l let you know

Clare gunner

Lots of Info on CZ on the web but found very little on Brno.
Only thing I thought was that its the same rifle just made in
a different factory.

Got more info?

www.czub.cz.
CZ is the company,Brno is the town where they were orginally made. Due to the fact that these were made once behind the iron curtain,it was a bit of political fumbling and whatnot to get them sold in Europe in the past.
So they were called Brno.In Germany they are still sold as Brno. CZ was a State owned socialist collective company,and they farmed the various bits of work around the workers pardise of Checkoslovakia,but the finished product came from the town of Brno.There is no difference in Brno or CZ/Brno.It's badge engineering.

Crows,
Good luck sniping crows! They wont stand for it.I have tried for years this on cut silage fields,where they come to feed on slugs,worms etc.Even with a silencer you will only get one,or two if you are quick.They are very smart,and like geese have their sentries posted when the rest are eating.One of their pals drops over dead ,the flock is gone ,and will not return to that field for the time it takes until you are bored and have gone home.They are totally suss of anything Man does,and seem to know even the difference of how a gun is carried or a spade or stick.The best fellahs to take with sniperwork are the Grey Hooded Crows.They are not flock birds,and are usually only one or two,plus they keep a good distance from man or buildings,so a long shot is required,they will come to a carcass of somthing fresh.They are not total carrion eaters.
Crows in general,two weakness are,totally protective of their young,and hate birds of prey.It is shotgun work,from a hide.

Umiq88

There is a difference CG they were made in different factorys im going home tomorrow and i have a few things bookmarked can give you the info if you want.

stevoman

thanks clare gunner thats very helpful. it wont be too long before all the grazers are of size to start my rabbit season. in my opinion its my favourite time of year to shoot

Clare gunner

psittacosis wrote:

There is a difference CG they were made in different factorys im going home tomorrow and i have a few things bookmarked can give you the info if you want.

Please do,I could be wrong,but that was what I was led to belive.

Umiq88

Thats what most people think as they are the same design both made in czech but they are two different companies and Brno arms is currently bankrupt.

I thought i had a few pages bookmarked but cant seem to find them however if you go onto the CZ section of http://www.rimfirecentral.com and ask there or PM brnomann you will get a huge amount of information.

Heres a post i just came across might clear up a few things
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156090&highlight=brno+581

bullets

psittacosis wrote:

Heres a post i just came across might clear up a few things
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156090&highlight=brno+581

When I was ordering my 452 varmint version in .17HMR I was
told that I was getting a Brno and not a CZ.

But since the Brno's were rifles dating
back well before the .17HMR existed then I find it difficult to believe
mines a Brno. considering reading the Link supplied I see the following:

>One limitation on Brno's though are that you can't get them in .17-HMR, >.17-HM2 or a .22-WMR.


~B

Umiq88

People call them brno's and they essentially are with a different badge on it CZ used to be part of the Brno company and broke off and formed their own i think. But the old original Brno's are a higher quaility gun than the modern day CZ's thats not a dig at CZ's at all im on my second and love em they're just not the same.

Brno did offer one rifle in .17hmr it was a rebarreled version of their .22wmr semi auto the 611 and they called it the 617 however they are rare and i think most were recalled due to the fact they didnt cycle right.

J.R.

Here is a method I have succesfully used with magpies and greycrows at this time of the year (nesting season) - I'm sure it will also work with rooks and jackdaws.

ARTIFICAL PHEASANTS NEST

Select an area near a hedge with a suitable backdrop where you wish to fire shots.

Place some clingfilm on the ground - roughly about a foot by a foot. Get some grass and shape it into the shape of a nest. Don't make the sides of the nest too high - about 2 inches. Place one or two small hens eggs in the 'nest' and break an egg in the nest, placing the shell and yoke in centre where it's clearly visible. (the clingfilm stops the egg from seeping into the ground so this decoy nest should look realistic for a few hours).

A magpie / crow call also helps. Magpies get very exicited with this set-up, and after checking out surroundings, will land in the nest to feast. If sides of nest are too high it can make shot more difficult.

The beauty of this method, especially when using a .22LR, is that you can pace / rangefind the distance to your hide that your sights are set at and take shots without any hold over / under.

Magpies / greycrows will often fly up and down hedge prior to landing so it's imperative that good camo is used with hat / gloves / facemask etc. A well built hide is also neccessary with a roof to outwit these crafty hunters. The least bit of movement or item out of place will frighten them off.

If crows / magpies notice nest and begin to call and get excited but turn and fly off then something is alerting them to the 'trap'. Check the set-up thoroughly - problem can be as simple as cigarete smoke or a reflection from glasses / gun barrel / scope lens etc.

johnner1

have a mod 5 brno myself would like to know how to tell its age. showing a bit of rust on the barrell if any one has a solution how to get rid of the rust marks i would be glad to hear there views. thanks in advance.

stevoman

thanks a million johnner thats a great tips. as regards cleaning the rust off your barrell im in the same predicament with a small amount of rust on the barrells of my shotgun and id also like to know how to combat this problom

maglite

as part of a blueing kit you get rust removers

but these will strip all the blue off the steel
you could try 0000 steel wool wipe and re blue

Umiq88

First thing would be to "scrubb" it with an oily rag which will get off surface rust

If that wont do it extremely fine grade steel wool soaked in oil and polish it off using that if its not coming off you'll need coarser wool or may have to use sandpaper.

You might be lucky and only have surface rust but if its not you can buy touch up blue kits on ebay.

@ Johnner to find out the date of manufacture on the left side of the reciever on the side where the barrel is threaded there ill be two numbers like "99 or something like that this is the year i.e. 1999

Any chance of posting up a few pics if its a mod 5 brno im guessing its was made in the 70's

civdef

The Rifle now known as the CZ452 used to be marketed as the Brno No.2 (and some other numerical versions).

"Brno" was the generic marketing name for all firearms produced by the state owned arms manufacturing companies in Czechoslovakia. With the breakup of the country and the state owned companies, the factories became separate commercial marketing entities again , several of them with the word "Brno" in their names, except confusingly, the company making the best known of the Czech Weapons - CZUB (they're based in Uherský Brod rather than the city of Brno). They always were known as CZUB within their own country.

The CZ452 rifle is still almost universally known in Ireland as the "Brno 22" - and it is essentially the same rifle - there have been some manufacturing changes over the years, both when known as Brno and as CZ.

Zbrojovka Brno, the other main rifle manufacturer produces rifles based on the Mauser VZ24 action rather than the CZ 550/600 types. It also brought out a frankly horrific straight pull 22 for a short while, which thankfully disappeared.

Longer version here:
http://p201.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm25.showMessage?topicID=139.topic

johnner1

i will try the steel wool and oil approach. will have a look at the date later on in the week and post a couple of pics if i can manage it not very up on this computer stuff. will keep you posted. have to find the camera first:)

Trojan911

stevoman wrote:

does anybody have any good tips and techniques they would like to share???

Hi stevoman,

Coming back on topic, what I normally do is shoot a rabbit & split it open and leave it about 100yds from my position. This does draw in the greycrows but I've also had a couple of disasters where nothing has come in. However a fox has crossed my path twice while doing this & they have been nabbed with a well placed head shot.

As for shooting the bunnies I tend to find a favourite field & wait for them to emerge, this too can be a long wait. Make sure you stay the right side of any breeze so not to alert them of your presence. I use the CZ452 with suppressor.

Hope that helps..

TJ911...

stevoman

yeah thanks that helps. bagged four rabbits last night, they where too big though to be honest i think i'l lay off them for 4 to 6 weeks, there doesnt seem to be any small grazers around as of late. in future i'l keep a spoiled rabbit for this technique so i will.

Hezz700

I Have 7 Firearms in my cabinet all completlely rust free due to a simple tip i picked up for a old hunter years ago.;)

After evey shooting session once you've cleaned the bore and wiped down the surfaces put the gun in the hotpress for half an hour before returning it to the safe. be sure not to prolong its stay in the hotpress, espescially with timber stocked Firearms as warping could occur.:eek:

stevoman

good tip. somewhon told me to rub vaseline on the barrells if its been out in the rain

I have seen people incorporate a bulb in the bottom of their safe in order to raise the temperature. That, combined with some silica packs should help reduce rust!

astraboy

stevoman wrote:

good tip. somewhon told me to rub vaseline on the barrells if its been out in the rain

Interesting you mention that. A good friend of mine recently bought a Pump-action shotgun from his uncle. It had been in storage in a dealers for years and years. Before his uncle moved away hew covered the gun in vaseline and wrapped it in a curtain! It is now in perfect condition, no rust after years of storage in not exactly ideal conditions. The only trouble was removing all the vaseline when my friend got hold of it.

Umiq88

if my guns been out in the rain it will be completely dissesambled and spend a couple hours beside the esse (aga)

Clare gunner

The Vaseline,or better still Cosmoline is a good idea.Cosmoline is the aproved stuff ,as it does not damage rubber or such parts that might be treated.All it is doing is preventing air and moisture getting near the metal.No air and moisture,no rust.
What Org Psycho said is also brilliant and for free.Go to your local hI fi computor outlet,etc.Ask them for the silica packets from the empty boxes.
Free dehumifiders.:D

Vegeta

back on topic i shot a grey crow this evening over some remains of a dead sheep. no pic i'm afraid

grey crows and magpies can be gotten by baiting

recular crows are too paranoid so use a shotgun as they are unlikely to land

mallards

As a side issue I have access to a crow nesting area. Its about a dozen or more mature trees (hardwood) and has around 150+ crows. They are nesting and I was planning to turn up early next week and try and bag as many as i can over the day. There are no areas of trees like this for at least a mile or two around this mountain area.

So if I fire my first shot (shotgun) will they all depart never to return?

Has anyone been in this vermin control situation?

What would be the best way to maximise the impact on the crows?

If I shoot out the nests will they nest again?

If I am shooting out the nests, tight chokes with the risk of missing flying
birds?

Am I better to wait until the crows have hatched to get adults and juveniles, thus it will be to late for the crows to nest again?

Will a crow magnet(wirly) help?

Please advise as they are hammering my wild game broods and the farmer hates to see them mess up his silage bales!

Mallards.

smashey

stevoman wrote:

yeah thanks that helps. bagged four rabbits last night, they where too big though to be honest i think i'l lay off them for 4 to 6 weeks, there doesnt seem to be any small grazers around as of late. in future i'l keep a spoiled rabbit for this technique so i will.

You should come to Donegal. I was out tonight on the country roads between Lifford, Castlefinn and Raphoe and there were young rabbits everywhere. I mentioned this to a local farmer and he said they are abundant this year.

J.R.

Mallards

If you want to get rid of the crows completely, to help both yourself and the farmer, then shoot the area consistently as often as possible - every evening if you can. The crow will all leave after about a week.

You will have solved the problem for yourself and the farmer but the problem is they will just relocate somewhere else. It just pushes the problem on. It can solve your problem by creating a problem for someone else.

I have often shot a similar situation but not to eliminate the crows completely. The farmer wanted them thinned but not wiped out (something to do with superstition, I think, 'if all the crows leave it's bad luck')

The way we tackle the situation is to use a spinner some distance from the rookery with two flying crows rotating plus some decoys and a crow call. As long as you are well concealed they will continue to come in all day.

When shooting crows from a hide everything must be well concealed. A roof made of netting across a section of the top of the hide really helps. If two are in the hide then use netting to create a dividing wall down through the centre of the hide.

Crows when shot frequently are very wary and check everything before coming in. A few 'look out' crows will approach first and usually fly down the hedge to check everything. Without the roof and dividing wall they will be able to see into the hide. With the roof and dividing wall all is concealed and they begin to call as they approach. Then the others quickly follow.

To shoot out the nest you will need heavy cartridges (maximum) as the clay lining at the base of the nest is like concrete. I wouldn't bother shooting them out in a rookery as they will just rebuild them or leave. Shooting out nests is usually for greycrow & magpies. Then if you see the nest being rebuilt you know the pair have returned to breed a second clutch.

Incidentally, be very careful if shooting out old nests of greycrows or magpies. Birds of prey, owls and even blackbirds have been known to use an old greycrow / magpie nest on occasions.

mallards

Great info J.R. How far from the rookery would you recommend I set up the whirly?


Mallards.

stevoman

smashey wrote:

You should come to Donegal. I was out tonight on the country roads between Lifford, Castlefinn and Raphoe and there were young rabbits everywhere. I mentioned this to a local farmer and he said they are abundant this year.

i'd love to but its a far cry from laois. as far as i can see is just keep talking to the local farmers and find out where all the rabbits are and use different spot once a week or so , so as not so shoot every rabbit out of an area. i knoiw they can be called vermin, but they taste good so im all for a large rabbit population

J.R.

Mallards,

We would set up the spinner in the next field to the rookery - approx. 700 - 800 yards.

When building the hide near a hedge walk in to the area from the side and erect the hide from the inside out. That way all the vegetation in front of the hide remains untouched. Make the back and sides of the hide much taller than the front so no crow approaching from behind or either side can see in.

If you stand in front of the hide while erecting poles, draping nets etc. all the vegetation gets trampled - a give away tell tale sign to crows that some activity has taken place.

Vegeta

class pics, i see you're a lefty, any trouble getting the semi left handed

johnner1

very good tips about birds of prey j.r. nice pics of you in the hide the camo looks and works very well! BUT WHAT WERE YOU THINKING:eek: did you forget to remove that blue cheque shirt you had on:D

J.R.

Vegeta wrote:

class pics, i see you're a lefty, any trouble getting the semi left handed

The gun in the photo is a Benelli Montrefeltro lightweight. No problem getting one but the left hand version is approx. €200 dearer than the right handed version when buying new. The only other manufacturer making a truly left handed version are Remington. I had a Remington 870 left handed pump action before this one. I find the Benelli a great gun. I fire 3,000 - 3,500 annually and it has never once jammed or let me down in the four years that I have it.

The Benelli in the photo has a 'Camoclad Realtree' self adhesive covering on it. I bought it on E-Bay from a guy in the U.S. It really helps it to blend in when hide shooting.



QUOTE
nice pics of you in the hide the camo looks and works very well! BUT WHAT WERE YOU THINKING did you forget to remove that blue cheque shirt you had on

Johnner
You are quite right. When I'm shooting in my native Kerry I leave the house with shooting gear on but here in the centre of Dublin I have to leave the house in 'street clothes' and put on the camo gear when I arrive at the shoting grounds. On the day in the photo I forgot to pack the realtree shirt which I usually wear under the jacket. But it has been worse...once on a damp day I forgot the wellies...had soaking shoes throughout the shoot.

mallards

Thanks J.R the info worked a treat, Ireland is 2 magpies, 2 Grey crows and 17 crows lighter this evening! Pity I wasn't quick enough to fetch the gun when I seen a fox making his way down the field!


Mallards.

stevoman

excellent pictures. the deck chair is key! do you use a caller or bait or both when you have the hide set up?

J.R.

stevoman wrote:

excellent pictures. the deck chair is key! do you use a caller or bait or both when you have the hide set up?

I use a Lockvigel electronic vermin call - expensive but very effective. I have never used bait, besides eggs in an artifical nest.

When decoying for crows I will have 2 decoy flying greycrows on a spinner with a kids toy rabbit (very realistic) on the ground in front of it. The rest of the crow / greycrow / magpie decoys will be near the hedgerow or perched in the hedge. For decoys when crow shooting I usually have 2 greycrows flying on spinner, 2 on ground, 8 black crows & 4 magpies. Could do with a bigger picture but crows only come in full body and not shells, like pigeons, so are bulky to carry. This combination attracts all corvids.

The rooks are usually first in, quickly followed by greycrows, once they hear the comotion. Once a greycrow dived and even tried to take the toy rabbit - got away as I couldn't take the shot for fear of hitting the spinner.

I have tried a decoy eagle owl on two occasions with mixed results. Once when placed in a tree directly over the hide the crows went absolutely crazy - in a frenzy and continued to come in droves to attack and mob the owl. Even as we were firing they continued to come.

On the second occasion, in a different farm the crows cawed when they saw it but gave the owl a wide berth - deliberately leaving their flightline to avoid it - took it down that day after half an hour.

I must try it again this year to monitor their behaviour and figure out how to use it effectively.

Some pics. below - can't find picture of spinner with crows on it - only pigeons.




I put a website together some time ago, haven't had time to update it recently - it deals with crow & pigeon decoying in Ireland.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~jamesanthonyryan/

stevoman

just back to the topic on vermin hunting, i have benn looking at J.R's site and its excellent with some great tips. i invested in a crow caller last night, its a cass creek one, it was 70euro which is expensive compared to ebay (about 2 thirds dearer so if anyones gonna purchase do so on ebay!!!!). i also traded in my old pedretti shotgun and bought myself a brand new over and under scirocco. anyways iv been looking round the web and found this site, so if anyone is interested in crow hunting they should check out jr's site above or this one....


http://www.crowbusters.com/index.htm

stevoman

i went out at seven this morning with the crow caller. i didnt have any decoys and didnt have time to make a hide so i kept close to the ditch. the buggers were coming into the calls but i was only getting shots from around 35 to 45 yards. i got about 12 shots off and guess what, i hit nothing. my shots gone to the dogs lately and i cany figure out where im going wrong.