The Most Hated Family In America BBC2 Sunday

mike65

This is a heads-up for what could be a very interesting programme, by Louis Theroux about the Phelps family who are notorious for thier linking of almost anything to the Wrath of God (homosexuality/flags/the military/United States) using the language of hate.

Fred Phelps runs the Westboro Baptist Church which is crackpot even by American standards.

January 15, 2006, Westboro members protested the memorial of 2006 Sago Mine disaster victims claiming that the mining accident was God's revenge against America for its tolerance of homosexuality.

The Theroux programme goes out on BBC2 next Sunday at 9 pm.

Mike.

unreggd

Ive seen her, she's a bleedin psycho

Zombrex

You know you are nuts when Fox News are giving out about you for being too religious

county

mike65 wrote:

The Theroux programme goes out on BBC2 next Sunday at 9 pm.

Mike.

nice one mike

Bottle_of_Smoke

Sh\t - I read godhatesfags.com before, thought it was a bunch of athiests trying to make Christians look bad.

Still hard to believe it's real.

Karoma

The crap they spout would make t-shirt hell blush.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ok this has to be my favorite bit from the wiki article

In December 2006, the Ku Klux Klan distributed flyers attacking the church in Albemarle County, Virginia [52]

Feral Mutant

Ha, brilliant. This is funnier than Chick tracts.:D

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Ok this has to be my favorite bit from the wiki article

That is good but I prefer

Wikipedia Article wrote:

Disney Fags (used during Disney on Ice at the Expo Center.)

rabbitinlights

Karoma wrote:

The crap they spout would make t-shirt hell blush.

LOL.....

de5p0i1er

Wicknight wrote:

You know you are nuts when Fox News are giving out about you for being too religious

Thats funny and true.

aidan24326

Their impact is minimal. Their 'church' has less than a hundred members and most of those are relatives and friends. They are so extreme as to barely appeal to even the most right-wing fundies. They also claim that every dead soldier returning from Iraq in a box is god's punishment to America for homosexuality. If I had my way people like them would not be allowed to breed. Problem then solved in one generation.

seamus

They're clearly closet homosexuals. No-one who was comfortable with their sexuality would hate gays that much.

guildofevil

I never understood why people get upset about what other people do in private. I mean, it doesn't affect them one iota. Who cares?

Zombrex

seamus wrote:

They're clearly closet homosexuals. No-one who was comfortable with their sexuality would hate gays that much.

Was thinking the exact same thing. You should look up the interview by Charles Firth on YouTube and watch their reactions when he starts to make advances towards the main "preacher" while interviewing them at a protest.

They all start shouting and screaming hysterically that he is a "pervert" It is hilarious. If these people aren't all self-hating closet homosexuals I will drink my own pee.

bonkey

I don't understand the logic of a show like this, billing it as "most hated". Its almost as though its a case of "we need more people to hate them".

To be honest, I'd put them down as (perhaps) America's most hateful family, but still don't see why anyone would want to tell the world about them.

Maybe its to make us feel better about our own lesser hatefulness, by showing us that we're not really so bad. Maybe its just sensationalism. Or maybe its just more tabloid lowest-common-denominator tv.

Bradidup

This is the FAQ section of their church website.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html

Zombrex

From a athiest point of view, and someone who has just finished The God Delusion for the second time, it is funny to watch how these people are received by other American Christians. It isn't surprising that these people exist. The surprising thing is that there aren't a lot more of them (maybe there are?)

Seen through a literal reading of the Old Testament the stuff that this crowd are stating isn't at all unreasonable. In the Bible God used to do this kind of thing all the time. You cannot go a few pages in the Bible without some group of people getting annihilated because of their sinful actions.

While it would be easy to dismiss these people as nut jobs the more disturbing conclusion is that they just believe in their religion. God does hate homosexuals. America does tolerate homosexuals. God therefore does hate America, as he hated the cities of Sodom and Gamorah. And just as those cities received punishment from above so to does America receive punishment from above. The thing that turns people off is not what they are preaching, but that they are preaching it about America. And most Americans are brought up to believe that God loves their country, so to them, even the deeply religious who would have no trouble saying these things about other countries, this doesn't make sense. God loves America, he will always love America.

Within the context of the Old Testament none of what this group is preaching is actually that far out there. I would imagine if they were preaching it about Iran or Saudi Arabia they would have a lot more support.

It gives a rather fascinating glimpse into the mind set of the people who would have come up with the Sodom and Gamorah stories in the first place. They were probably pretty much like these people, convinced that God really will send destruction to Earth if we sin against him or tolerate others to sin against him

InFront

Wicknight wrote:

God does hate homosexuals. America does tolerate homosexuals. God therefore does hate America

Well, actually for that to work you have to prove

• that God hates homosexuals (as opposed to the act). I'm not sure about the first part, I wonder how sure you are?
• that God hates those who tolerate the sinner

I'm not saying God doesn't hate America, that's a whole other subject. But this and your earlier comment that Ibrahimic faiths teaching that "women are inferior to men" (I've only ever been told this by non religious people by the way) would suggest that instead of reading the same atheism book twice, you might read something about the religions you don't believe in also.

po0k

Bradidup wrote:

This is the FAQ section of their church website.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html

www.godhatesfaqs.com

Zombrex

InFront wrote:

Well, actually for that to work you have to prove

* that God hates homosexuals (as opposed to the act). I'm not sure about the first part, I wonder how sure you are?
* that God hates those who tolerate the sinner

Not really.

As far as I'm concerned God doesn't exist, so proving what he does or does not believe in is impossible. He doesn't believe anything.

The point is that these people do. They genuinely believe that their god hates homosexuals, and that this position is supported in the Bible. Are they wrong? Does the Bible explicitly say that "I, God, love homosexuals?" Of course not, if it did then Christianity wouldn't have been against homosexuality for hundreds of years. Homosexuality is described as an abomination. It is described as a sin. Homosexuals are lumped in with all sorts of sinners -

1 Cor 6
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

This isn't surprising. Some people just have big hang ups over homosexuality, or sex in general. People clearly have hang ups about it now, they clearly had hang ups about it back then. The people who wrote the Bible, or the Quran, didn't like homosexuality. This is reflected in the writing. While the Bible and the Quran both praise sexual intimacy between a man and a woman homosexual intimacy is never mentioned as anything other than a sin.


If someone wants to get into theological gymnastics to try and shape the passages around so that the support the idea that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality be my guest.

This crowd clearly couldn't be bother to do that because they aren't looking for the Bible to tell them homosexuality isn't evil. They are happy enough with the first conclusion they arrived at. So were most Christians for hundreds of years. Homosexuality was a criminal offense in most Christian countries until last century.

It would be a mistake InFront to think that I come at this from the position that there is actually a "truth" in there some where and that we can find it if we just keep digging. There is no truth behind the Bible. There isn't a correct representation of "God" in there somewhere. The Bible can be made to support anything you like. The same Bible can support the idea that homosexuality is evil or that homosexuality is wonderful. It can do this because there is actually no correct answer in there.

The "correct answer" is the one that the person has already decided for themselves before they go looking in the holy books to support this answer.

InFront wrote:

But this and your earlier comment that Ibrahimic faiths teaching that "women are inferior to men" (I've only ever been told this by non religious people by the way)

Are you saying that in the 1000+ years of Islam it wasn't taught that women are inferior to men?

That might not be your interpretation of the Quran, but then that isn't really the point is it. It can be (and is) an interpretation of the Quran that is commonly taught, just like god hates homosexuals can and was (is) a common interpretation of the Bible that was preached.

Even in interpretations of the Muslim view of women that attempt to show that woman are equal to men the author still fall down. For example this piece goes to great length to show that the Quran actually does say that men and women are equal, using as an example the fact that a man may only beat his wife if he has a just cause for doing so. QED as one would say.

Its kind hard to argue with that mind set, because it is clear that what the author views as "equal" is not what I (or liberal society) would view as equal.

http://www.geocities.com/alummah2000/Quran-4-34.html

Trode

bonkey wrote:

I don't understand the logic of a show like this, billing it as "most hated". Its almost as though its a case of "we need more people to hate them".

To be honest, I'd put them down as (perhaps) America's most hateful family, but still don't see why anyone would want to tell the world about them.

Maybe its to make us feel better about our own lesser hatefulness, by showing us that we're not really so bad. Maybe its just sensationalism. Or maybe its just more tabloid lowest-common-denominator tv.

This kind of thing's long been Louis Theroux's stock-in-trade, producing supposedly light-hearted documentaries that basically amount to "point and laugh at the stupid [insert subject here, usually Americans]." I think he's aiming for smug superiority rather than tabloidesque disgust or shocking in-depth journalism. In fairness, he doesn't have to do much more than point a camera at some of his targets to make them appear moronic, hypocritical or just evil, but there's certainly a mean-spirited undertone to his superficially whimsical work.

Hobbes

Seen them interviewed before. Like Ann Coulter some people should simply not get airtime. They are totally RL trolls.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there hobbes, ann coulter should have her own tv station...

she's just so.... dirty

dirty, dirty girl.

Hobbes

Mordeth wrote:

i'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there hobbes, ann coulter should have her own tv station...

she's just so.... dirty

dirty, dirty girl.

You mean you didn't watch "The half hour news hour" ? Ann knows comedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCl_--E3T2c

this is the interview I saw btw on them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAC9t4nNxjU

Zombrex

Hobbes wrote:

You mean you didn't watch "The half hour news hour" ? Ann knows comedy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCl_--E3T2c

this is the interview I saw btw on them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAC9t4nNxjU

Comedy thy name is Ann Colter

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i saw the first ep.. but can't find the later episodes anywhere.. they should have her strip off an item of clothing every episode..

mmm

metrovelvet

Im in the US right now and these people get no media coverage. I hadnt heard of them until I saw this thread.

Why does BBC make a whole documentary out of these morons?

GuanYin

Acually, I've seen them covered on TV here and I'm in the western US !!! - I think it was the Daily Show though -

If you want decent TV news in the US, watch BBC world news, just started on BBC america (it was previously and still is, on PBS) otherwise the best source of news is The Daily Show and the Colbert Report.


For anyone uninitiated, Colbert is an absolute genius.

WindSock

Can I donate money to you? Can I buy one of your awesome shirts?

No, you cannot donate money to us. We don't accept donations. We don't want your money. We don't make merchandise of the Gospel. "Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise." (John 2:16). "Because that for his name’s sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles." (3 John 1:7). Likewise, we don't sell shirts. If you want one, go to a local shirt-maker near you and custom-make your own.

InFront

Wicknight wrote:

Not really.

As far as I'm concerned God doesn't exist, so proving what he does or does not believe in is impossible. He doesn't believe anything.

Then I'm not sure why you speak for Him as per the last thing I quoted from you. I'm not saying that you're right or wrong in what you said, just that you shouldn't be trying to generalize, or misrepresent entire religions based on a few people like here, or based on your own lack of belief. You seem to be presenting yourself as some sort of authority on what God does and does not hate, even though you don't believe in Him.

I'm not interested in changing the words of any holy text, none of us are in a position to do so. But I would question your authority to interpret them like you did, or speak for religions you don't have an interest in, based on what you've read from possibly questionable sources and being surprised that they don't compare to the western yardstick of liberty.

metrovelvet

psi wrote:

Acually, I've seen them covered on TV here and I'm in the western US !!! - I think it was the Daily Show though -

If you want decent TV news in the US, watch BBC world news, just started on BBC america (it was previously and still is, on PBS) otherwise the best source of news is The Daily Show and the Colbert Report.


I try and try and try to watch BBC news but I fall asleep within 10 minutes of it. Its just so relaxing.... and then all those shows on how to sell your junk come on and its all over.

But yes, Colbert, deliciously subversive.

Im on the east coast, have never come across these people's names, but then again crackpots of all kinds are in NYC so it would be hard to take any notice of these guys. They'd just blend in with the other freaks.

Oh and Wicknight this may not be true anymore, there may be a new translation of daraba: see article as linked below.

Even in interpretations of the Muslim view of women that attempt to show that woman are equal to men the author still fall down. For example this piece goes to great length to show that the Quran actually does say that men and women are equal, using as an example the fact that a man may only beat his wife if he has a just cause for doing so. QED as one would say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/us/25koran.html?ex=1332475200&en=835924e5b6d16c52&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

GuanYin

metrovelvet wrote:

[I try and try and try to watch BBC news but I fall asleep within 10 minutes of it. Its just so relaxing.... and then all those shows on how to sell your junk come on and its all over.

Yeah, I know how you love Fox news - they make it all much more exciting with the evil muslim people with the big beards and those sneaky homosexuals.

Lets not forget the french, leftists and your favourite term "Euros"

I can understand how when Fox makes it seem like there is a world of bad and evil out there, that would make the Thunderbirds tremble, that good old fashioned journalism, that actually tries to report truth (I find it difficult to use truth and journalism together mind you), would bore you silly.

But yes, Colbert, deliciously subversive.

Indeed :rolleyes:

Im on the east coast, have never come across these people's names, but then again crackpots of all kinds are in NYC so it would be hard to take any notice of these guys. They'd just blend in with the other freaks.

Yeah, it's hard to tell you republicans apart.

metrovelvet

I dont watch locker room news.

And I really dont know why you are bringing up Foxnews, when this has nothing to do with Fox or newscorp and no one in this thread is talking about fox news. They are some people talking about the BBC production adn there are two other people having a bizarre theological debate about the Koran, the relevance to the notes on the BBC documentary I dont see yet, but maybe something will emerge out of it.

I dont know if you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning or what, psi, but please, relax.I thought you west coasters were supposed to be more chilled out man..... you know with all that stuff you smoke

Zombrex

InFront wrote:

Then I'm not sure why you speak for Him as per the last thing I quoted from you.

Apologies if that wasn't clear. It was supposed to be what they genuinely believe God thinks. As far as they are concerned God does hate homosexuals, God does hate people who tolerate homosexuals, God does hate America. What they are doing, in their own heads, is simply following their religion. I don't think God exists so I don't think he hates anything. You I would imagine do think God exists, and possibly think that God doesn't mind homosexuals at all. Unfortunately for you they have a ton of Biblical passages detailing that God thinks homosexual acts are sinful, that they are an abomination, that they are perverted and immoral. You also have a ton of Biblical passages with God laying down terrible punishment on sinful people.

You would have an up hill struggle if you were to try and logically prove to them that God actually doesn't mind homosexuals or homosexual sex at all.

InFront wrote:

I'm not saying that you're right or wrong in what you said, just that you shouldn't be trying to generalize, or misrepresent entire religions based on a few people like here, or based on your own lack of belief.

I'm not sure what you mean. When you say entire religions do you mean entire followers of a religion? I'm sure lots of Christians don't dislike homosexuals. But that doesn't really change the fact that the religious instruction of Christianity or Islam makes it very easy to find justification to dislike homosexuals. The religions themselves define homosexual love as a sin and an perversion of how God wants us to be.

Of course if that doesn't sit well with someones conscience it is possible to perform a bit of theological gymnastics to arrive at a nicer conclusion for them. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" for example. It is still defining a practicing homosexual as a sinner though, and hating what they do. The religion is quite clear on that. Repentance is a key factor in these religions, and if someone doesn't repent it isn't a big jump from hate the sin, to hate the unrepentant sinner.

InFront wrote:

You seem to be presenting yourself as some sort of authority on what God does and does not hate, even though you don't believe in Him.

I'm not sure how to answer that beyond repeating again that God doesn't actually exist so he doesn't hate or love anything.

The only thing that exists is what people who believe in him think he wants, think he loves, thinks he hates. And all of the three main western religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) teach that God hates homosexuality, it is a sin, a perversion, and an abomination.

If you don't agree with that then that is great. If you don't think that your god wants that that is great too. But that doesn't change the fact that this is the position that was taught for hundreds of years in these religions, which today people still believe.

InFront wrote:

I'm not interested in changing the words of any holy text, none of us are in a position to do so. But I would question your authority to interpret them like you did

I'm not the one interpreting them. They are. And their interpretation is that God hates homosexuals. And you can bet your bottom dollar that they can support this interpretation with tons and tons of quotes from the Bible.

How would you prove to them that their interpretation is wrong or not valid?

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

I'm not interested in changing the words of any holy text, none of us are in a position to do so. But I would question your authority to interpret them like you did, or speak for religions you don't have an interest in, based on what you've read from possibly questionable sources and being surprised that they don't compare to the western yardstick of liberty.

There’s a degree of circling without coming into land about this statement. I think Wicknight has raised useful points, but I just wanted to chuck a few more thoughts out there.

Taking homosexuality as the case in point, is it not fair to say that perfectly legitimate religious sources will identify this as sinful in both Islam and Christianity? Hence, on that point it is clearly irrelevant to say that atheists need to read about the religions they are talking about. We do. That’s how we can demonstrate our perception on this matter to be absolutely correct.

In the case of the status of women in religion, the position is a little more complex. That complexity just comes from putting an optimistic spin on the religious texts by saying that women should have a role that is subservient to men but that men should value that role and not abuse the power they are given in the relationship. Put another way, it can be argued that saying ‘the little woman should be in the home, but you should be nice about it’ does not imply the woman’s role to be lesser to that envisaged for men. That sort of ‘very different, but just as valued’ picture may indeed hold water. To my mind, it’s simply putting a sugar coating on something less idyllic. However, the evidence is undeniable that some women actively seek such relationships.

I think the bottom line, though, is that its pretty clear that what those texts mean at best is that women are ‘very different, but just as valued’ as men. They are not expressing a vision where gender equality, in any meaningful sense, has any particular relevance. Maybe that’s right. Maybe that’s wrong. But what is clear is that unbelievers who identify this as a reality are basing their views on something that’s reasonably clearly in those religious texts, and in how those texts have been (and sometimes still are) interpreted by mainstream religious authorities. It’s not that we’re missing something. It’s more that believers can get a bit uncomfortable when these things are pointed out.

InFront

Wicknight wrote:

And their interpretation is that God hates homosexuals.
How would you prove to them that their interpretation is wrong or not valid?

Well it's you that I think are as wrong as the people in question.

Neither of you seem to differentiate between a homosexual and someone who commits homosexual acts. This is really a whole other debate, but there is evidence suggesting that genes can predispose a person to homosexuality. Such person might become a homosexual through no fault of their own. I said it an another thread that I think in that case, where the person refuses to submit to their sexual urges and reveals themselves to be good, God will reward them. There are many examples of God rewarding the repenter and the person who does not submit to evil, the Prophet (pbuh) actually said in a hadith that these are the very best 'sons of Adam' (who repent). Such a person could still (presumably) be homosexual; just not in their actions.

InFront

Schuhart wrote:

Hence, on that point it is clearly irrelevant to say that atheists need to read about the religions they are talking about. We do. That’s how we can demonstrate our perception on this matter to be absolutely correct.

As above, this is the problem with not looking at the question in any detail. A man who engages in a sexual act with another man, or a woman with a woman, is committing a very serious sin, there's no doubt about that.
Consider the man who is straight. Before he gets married he remains a good Muslim, avoids everything that is haraam, prays, averts his eyes and is good to his parents. He is a heterosexual. Does this mean he has committed heterosexual acts? Of course not. So when somebody says 'God hates homosexuals, see it's in he holy texts, I've read about it in this atheism book', and they've left out that first and most basic point, then I can't help but thinking that there is a problem saying that your perception is "absolutely correct" as you put it.

GuanYin

metrovelvet wrote:

I dont watch locker room news.

I'd suggest that you probably don't actually watch news so much as soap opera/drama.

And I really dont know why you are bringing up Foxnews, when this has nothing to do with Fox or newscorp and no one in this thread is talking about fox news.

Well you suggested that BBC news puts you to sleep so I postulated that it's because you're mmore au fait with the excitment of your beloved Fox network which matches your ideals of evil darkskinned people and homosexuals plotting to overthrow the world with the help of liberals and Euros.... you know how it is.

They are some people talking about the BBC production adn there are two other people having a bizarre theological debate about the Koran, the relevance to the notes on the BBC documentary I dont see yet, but maybe something will emerge out of it.

Well you seemed ok with Colbert, The Daily Show and BBC World news being mentioned - whoops did I offend you by criticising the Voice of The Lord?

I dont know if you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning or what, psi, but please, relax.I thought you west coasters were supposed to be more chilled out man..... you know with all that stuff you smoke

Ahhh anothers slurring stereotype from you, was only a matter of time before you got back to your old ways. I'm not actually a westerner, I just live here.

Zombrex

InFront wrote:

A man who engages in a sexual act with another man, or a woman with a woman, is committing a very serious sin, there's no doubt about that.

That is kinda the point.

When this crowd say "God hates fags" they aren't talking about the homosexuals who out of guilt and shame force themselves to be celibate for their entire lives because they have been convinced that do have the sex they want to have would be a sin. I imagine this crowd have great pity and respect for these people who are "fighting their sickness" and refuse to give into sin. There are programs run by Christian churches in the US that will attempt turn you straight.

What these people are talking about "fags" as in homosexuals who have homosexual sex, who fall in love with people of the same sex, who wish to marry people of the same sex.

People who aren't ashamed of being homosexual, people who aren't ashamed to have homosexual sex, to fall in love with members of the same sex etc etc.

These are the people that they think God hates. And it is very easy to come to this conclusion from reading scripture.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

when somebody says 'God hates homosexuals, see it's in he holy texts, I've read about it in this atheism book',

You’ll understand, the logic isn’t so much 'God hates homosexuals, see it's in the holy texts, I've read about it in this atheism book'. It’s more ‘holy texts seem to rule out homosexual acts under all circumstances. Mainstream religious authorities confirm this interpretation, and those authorities sometimes justify quite brutal actions in response to anyone found to have ignored that prohibition. Atheists frequently comment on these things that they find in the scriptures and in religious commentaries.’

InFront wrote:

that first and most basic point

The basic point seems to be that same sex intercourse is prohibited under all circumstances. Are you suggesting some scriptural basis for gay marriage? If not, you’re just making an invalid comparison.

InFront

Of course I'm not suggesting something like gay marriage, that's the complete opposite to what I'm saying. Anybody who is practicing homosexuality is commiting a serious sin for sure in Islam, and I can only presume (because I don't know) that this is the Christian and Jewish teaching too.

That is not the same thing as saying "God Hates Homosexuals". This is what you have in common with these people: you both announce that this is religious teaching.
For one thing you need to seperate out the person from the act they may never have gone and commited (just thought about for example), or indeed may have genuinely repented from. In both cases the person might be a homosexual. Do you say God hates those who refuse to give in? Those who repent?

Secondly, it isn't for anybody to say who God hates or doesn't hate, it is irrelevant to the rest of us as individuals. Yes homosexual behavior is expressly sinful - undoubtedly so - but saying He hates homosexuals is a big leap on a number of levels.

Run_to_da_hills

I came across these two on line from same crowd attacking the cc in south park style.


http://www.thesignsofthetimes.net/prb.html
http://www.thesignsofthetimes.net/pih.html

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

Im in the US right now and these people get no media coverage. I hadnt heard of them until I saw this thread.

Why does BBC make a whole documentary out of these morons?

Actually they have gotten media coverage and quite a bit of it in the US. Just in the USA it is old news.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

I can only presume (because I don't know) that this is the Christian and Jewish teaching too.

I don’t know the position in Judaism either, but a Catholic priest would be very comfortable with your ‘reject the sin and not the sinner’ line. Its just the kind of woolly evasion that they like.

InFront wrote:

Do you say God hates those who refuse to give in? Those who repent?

But, in fairness, this is pure balderdash.

Apply the same logic to a slightly different proposition ‘God sees nothing wrong with being Muslim so long as you deny the truth of the Quran and profess that Jesus is the son of God who died on the cross to free the world from sin’.

An amount of religious dogma has a problem with same sex relationships. Maybe it’s right. Maybe it’s wrong. Mostly all I’m aiming to point out in this discussion is the pretty clear fact that religion has issues on this topic and its something that atheists draw attention to, not something that we make up.

If, for the sake of argument, some religious authority advocates chucking a practicing homosexual from a tall building, then I suggest that he’s advocating it out of a sense that it’s what God wants. I’d suggest that, while anything is possible, high altitude defenestration is unlikely to be an honour reserved by God for the most favoured of his children.

InFront

Apply the same logic to a slightly different proposition ‘God sees nothing wrong with being Muslim so long as you deny the truth of the Quran and profess that Jesus is the son of God who died on the cross to free the world from sin’.

That person would not be a Muslim, that sounds like a Christian.
Refusing to submit to whatever sexual urges, on the other hand, does not make you straight or gay. Are you saying you have to sleep with someone to be homosexual? Or heterosexual? I don't think so.

I’m aiming to point out in this discussion is the pretty clear fact that religion has issues on this topic and its something that atheists draw attention to

That God does not wish people to engage in homosexual acts is pretty obvious on its own. And attention is already drawn conclusively to this in holy texts. Hiding it, denying it, or interpreting the Quran wrongly (on purpose) would be a very serious sin. I'm all for atheists teaching God's word, as long as it's done accurately.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

god also wants us to burn the clothes worn by women when they're having their period, and to stone disobedient children.

god's a bit of a dick.

GuanYin

Mordeth wrote:

god also wants us to burn the clothes worn by women when they're having their period, and to stone disobedient children.

god's a bit of a dick.

That's the old God, before he went for anger management therapy - the New God loves you!

Zombrex

InFront wrote:

Of course I'm not suggesting something like gay marriage, that's the complete opposite to what I'm saying. Anybody who is practicing homosexuality is commiting a serious sin for sure in Islam, and I can only presume (because I don't know) that this is the Christian and Jewish teaching too.

That is kinda the whole point InFront.

It is that religious logic that leads on to this crowd standing up with signs that says "God Hates Fags" These people aren't believing in anything different that what a large number of religious people, Christian and Muslims, also believe. God hates sin. Therefore God hates those who willfully commit sin with no shame or remorse.

InFront wrote:

For one thing you need to seperate out the person from the act they may never have gone and commited (just thought about for example), or indeed may have genuinely repented from.

As I explained I seriously doubt these people are objecting to homosexuals who out of guilt or fear never have sex their entire lives.

They are objecting to homosexuals who don't feel that there is anything wrong or shameful with being a homosexual and who have homosexual sex. And the people who tolerate this as well.

InFront wrote:

In both cases the person might be a homosexual. Do you say God hates those who refuse to give in? Those who repent?

No. But these guys would argue that God does hate those who don't repent, who don't lead of life of celibacy.

InFront wrote:

Yes homosexual behavior is expressly sinful - undoubtedly so - but saying He hates homosexuals is a big leap on a number of levels.

That is our opinion and I commend you on it. But I don't think you could convince them through scripture of that.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

Are you saying you have to sleep with someone to be homosexual? Or heterosexual? I don't think so.

Do you have to acknowledge the Quran is the word of God to be a Muslim? Maybe you could just admire its attractive cover and leave it on the shelf. Clearly suppressing Islamic impulses and bringing up your children as Hindus would not make you any less of a Muslim in God's eyes.

Alternatively, maybe this whole way of looking at things is simply nonsense and the whole 'sin and not the sinner' business is just a fog we can let the issue get lost in.

InFront wrote:

I'm all for atheists teaching God's word, as long as it's done accurately.

You can be assured of our commitment to ensuring the multiple and contradictory words of God are known and understood throughout the world. As we're established here, atheists can be quite a reliable source of religious knowledge possibly because they have no vested interest in trying to make this stuff sound reasonable.

InFront

Schuhart wrote:

Maybe you could just admire its attractive cover and leave it on the shelf. Clearly suppressing Islamic impulses and bringing up your children as Hindus would not make you any less of a Muslim in God's eyes.

It seems to me like it would, but I don't claim to see through God's eyes.
Practicing as a homosexual is not compulsory, however permanent the feelings may be. There is a bit of crossover between this and the Islam thread, but I would mention again the verse from the Quran that reads what means "Allah does not burden a soul more than it can bear" (Al Baqara 286). To me anyway, this suggests there is a possibility that homosexuality may sometimes be an opportunity to reveal ones strength as a Muslim. Opportunity to reveal strength is not easy, that why it is called strength.

You can be assured of our commitment to ensuring the multiple and contradictory words of God are known and understood throughout the world

Understanding begins with the individual.

Schuhart

InFront wrote:

To me anyway, this suggests there is a possibility that homosexuality may sometimes be an opportunity to reveal ones strength as a Muslim

I know I’m half tripping over Wicknight’s posts, but I’ve started so I’ll finish. What you are confirming is there is a prohibition on certain lifestyles. I don’t see any particular basis for arguing that tolerance should be shown to someone pursuing such prohibited lifestyles as they should be capable of suppressing their feelings. (You’ll understand, I’m not suggesting that you personally want to defenestrate anyone. Just that you seem to accept that scripture counsels tolerance for someone who, say, remains celibate rather than leads a life deemed sinful. Treatment of people who choose a sinful life, as we know, leads at least some religious authorities to suggest sanctions should be applied.)

At this stage the suggestion you seemed to start out with, to the effect that atheists misunderstood the stance of religions, is surely pretty much irrelevant. The half suggestion that this was something we were drawing from unreliable sources is, presumably, equally irrelevant.

We’re not making this stuff up, and I don’t see what you think is gained by pretending we do.

InFront wrote:

Understanding begins with the individual.

Without a doubt. (I’m going to stop there before it becomes apparent that the meaning we each assign to that sentence differs almost at the level of each syllable.)