evolution and atheism (youll enjoy this)

ChildOfTheKing

im not here to knock atheists down, i actually used to be one...and i really encourage you to watch these

www.wayofthemaster.com

you need high speed and pc....let the intro load, then click skip intro, then click the blue number 2.....then 2 episodes will appear, one entitled evolution and one entitled atheism....i really encourage you to watch these, they are entertaining and just very informing

Son Goku

Whoa!, a bunch of twenty to thirty year olds off the street can't make a complete case for evolution. Combined with the stupid jokes and warping what the theories actually say and I think I'm totally sold.

Plus there's a cool board game to go with it! Albert Einstein shouldn't have waited for observational evidence of Relativity, he should have just made an awesome board game for 4-8 players that appeals to the 8-12 year old age bracket.

ChildOfTheKing

no i dont expect to win anyone....i just have the attitude that the more evidence you see the less you will believe God doesnt exist

in a world where God doesnt exist, there would be no arguments for him.....infact when i looked at you(assuming i miraculously had eyes with 20-20) and said "God exists" (assuming i had the brain rationality and mouth to speak miraculously) you would look back and laugh(assuming that you miraculously had that ability, a neck that turned and body, and lips to laugh with) with a foot growing out of your head in which there was no use...a hand growing from your nose instead of a nose.....ect but no we are wonderfully made, just open your eyes, its absolutely miraculous

if the bible is true that means God exists and that there is a devil out there that wants your hearts hard as a rock to deny everything, and if God even appeared right before you...you'd say "im hollucinating" because your heart is so hard you cant except proof, all i am trying to do because i used to be a hardened atheist is help you see that you need more blind faith to be an atheist than to believe in the existance of God.....you want to believe God doesnt exist, he wont disappear, i am absolutely sure of it...so i encourage you to be opened minded, because if you close your eyes and drive at a brick wall the brick wall will still mean death but in this instance you wont be able to turn out of the way because of your eyes being closed....Jesus said that anyone who truely obeys his doctrine will know if its from God or not, i am a previous professing atheist who can testify that his words were absolutely true

Sangre

Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Scofflaw

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

...a previous professing atheist...

Interesting, that. I've been an atheist 30 years, and I don't think I've ever been a 'professing atheist'. On the other hand, it looks like the devil has done a far better job of hardening my heart than he did yours...

...although of course conversion only comes through grace, so it doesn't make any real difference whether your heart is hardened or not. God converts who he wills, and he simply hasn't in my case, as yet - unless of course you're suggesting that either man or devil has the power to resist God successfully?

Is this a 'hit and run' conversion attempt, or will you be sticking around?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

i just have the attitude that the more evidence you see the less you will believe God doesnt exist

That is true. But I'm not quite sure how this rates as evidence for a god?

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

ect but no we are wonderfully made, just open your eyes, its absolutely miraculous

We are wonderfully made, but then we, and all life, are very far from perfectly made. Far far from it in fact. Would this not hint that we weren't made by a god?

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

if the bible is true that means God exists and that there is a devil out there that wants your hearts hard as a rock to deny everything

We don't deny everything, just the existence of sky gods. So do you in fact. As Prof. Richard Dawkins is for ever pointing out, 99.9% of people deny the existence of all sky gods, except for their own. Atheists just take it one god more.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

, and if God even appeared right before you...you'd say "im hollucinating" because your heart is so hard you cant except proof

That wouldn't be "proof" If God actually appeared in front of a large number of scientists and said "Run all the test you want" then we might be getting some where.

I would point out that I still wouldn't worship him. Would you worship Baal if he appeared in front of you?

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

Jesus said that anyone who truely obeys his doctrine will know if its from God or not

Jesus was a manipulating cult leader with dreams of grandeur who made a quite nice living off convincing people to follow him. There are a lot of them around in his day, there are a lot of them around today but I no more wish to follow any of them than follow Jesus.

Crucifix

Ho ho, you're right, I did enjoy that!

Zillah

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

no i dont expect to win anyone....i just have the attitude that the more evidence you see the less you will believe God doesnt exist

Is that a double negative? Anyway, well done on the stereotypically useless rambling believer post.

in a world where God doesnt exist, there would be no arguments for him.....

Really? I find it very interesting that there are in fact no good arguments for God in this world...

if the bible is true that means God exists and that there is a devil out there that wants your hearts hard as a rock to deny everything

As men smarter than you and I have pointed out before, whats so important about belief? Why would a God who does exist act so insecurely about whether people believe in him or not?

And the bible isn't true, or at the very least we can be sure that it is very very unlikely to be true. Humanity has spawned thousands of mystical texts over the millenia, I am no more likely to believe the texts written by the tribes of Israel than I am the tribes of New Guinea or Japan. Its all nonesense written by primitive peoples who were inventing answers because they didn't know any better.

and if God even appeared right before you...you'd say "im hollucinating" because your heart is so hard you cant except proof

Fact: People have hallucinations frequently. What one sees is not neccessarily the truth.
Fact 2: God has not been proven to exist. All the evidence suggests God is an invention of mankind.
Logic: If I have a vision of God, its probably not God.

all i am trying to do because i used to be a hardened atheist is help you see that you need more blind faith to be an atheist than to believe in the existance of God...

No you don't, thats a patently stupid thing to say. Atheism generally springs from an open minded scepticism about the world. It prevents one from coming to faulty conclusions. God is quite a faulty conclusion.

..you want to believe God doesnt exist, he wont disappear, i am absolutely sure of it...

Your personal degree of delusion does not affect the reality of the universe.

so i encourage you to be opened minded, because if you close your eyes and drive at a brick wall the brick wall will still mean death

A more accurate analogy would be this: You are driving down a big empty highway in the middle of a desert. There is not a single visible structure for as far as the eye can see. Suddenly, your passenger screams "Look out for the wall!!" and you're like, "What wall? Are you insane? Theres no wall" and he's like "Trust me, I can feel the wall!!" You, being the rational person you are, say "Uh, ok. Can you see the wall?" He just shakes his head and says "I just know!"

Jesus said that anyone who truely obeys his doctrine will know if its from God or not, i am a previous professing atheist who can testify that his words were absolutely true

I see. So if you mindlessly obey the doctrine you'll believe the doctrine.

Shocking revelation.

5uspect

Hi I'm a PC and I'm a Mac...

Schuhart

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

in a world where God doesnt exist, there would be no arguments for him

OK, which would you prefer. My argument for the existence of:

a) the Tooth Fairy
b) Santa Claus
c) Perpetual motion machines
d) Pyramid building aliens
e) A hollow earth

Fallen Seraph

On the lighter side, it's good to see theists over here for a change, rather than the other way around.

Zillah

Its looking like a hit and run.

Schuhart

And now for something completely different.

5uspect

and more from that user

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPuKoEYCs2o

One for Jakkass perhaps?

2Scoops

5uspect wrote:

Hi I'm a PC and I'm a Mac...

LOL - seconded:)

I like the bit where they say they're going to "bypass your intellect" - that tries to rationalize everything - and speak directly to your conscience. How true. Reminds me of Stephen Colbert. Don't trust facts and logic - go with your GUT! You know it makes sense.

Zillah

I love how they begin by explaining how the Big Bang is an evolutionist principle. They then get some random members of the public to explain the theory of evolution and use their failure as evidence that evolution is wrong.

To the original poster: The fact that you would be convinced by this nonesense says a lot about you. And no, its not good.

Dades

Fallen Seraph wrote:

On the lighter side, it's good to see theists over here for a change, rather than the other way around.

I concur.
I just wish I had time to watch the vids. Damn you, employment!

stevejazzx

The Atheist wrote:

I concur.
I just wish I had time to watch the vids. Damn you, employment!

They are worth a watch. They are very clever and manipulative. Obviously the boys and girls who are regulares here won't be pursuaded but the for the videos traget audience (high schools kids) I imagine it being pretty effective. Others above have already pointed out the stupidity of trying to undermine evolution by the illustrating the inability of kids to expain it properly nonetheless the 2 presenters have been well veresed in the arts of manipulation and look like particulary good advocates of litrealistic bible brainwashing. They are in actuality 2 quite scary guys who I iamgine are more extreme than they allow themselves on video, they are far too professional for that. Each exspensively produced video is followed by a clever 'soft sell' of one thier products, books, videos, dvds, mugs, jackets, wallcharts, calendars, clocks, watches, phones.....
theres no business like extremist right wing christainity as they say....?

Scofflaw

It's funny, really. These videos - there's a heck of a lot of marketing, some very slick techniques, simple and appealing message, group-building singalongs, lots of talking to kids. What have we got? An occasionally irascible middle-aged academic who mostly shows up when he has a book to promote...

These guys should be winning hands-down. Maybe people aren't all that stupid after all!

cordially,
Scofflaw

bonkey

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

in a world where God doesnt exist, there would be no arguments for him

I have two questions.

1) How do you know this.
2) How do you know God is male?

Of the two, only the first is particularly serious. You can't possibly believe in a God and know that in a world without God there would be no argument for the existence of God.

if the bible is true that means God exists

Correct. However, if the bible is not true, God can still exist.

and if God even appeared right before you...you'd say "im hollucinating"

Actually, if the bible is true and God appeared right before me, I'd die.

all i am trying to do because i used to be a hardened atheist is help you see that you need more blind faith to be an atheist than to believe in the existance of God

How are you quantifying blind faith? How is "I do not believe in God" a greater quantity of blind faith than "I believe in God" ??? For anything you look at and say "this is evidence of God", the atheist says "this is not evidence of God". IF we assert that either is blind faith, then both must be.....leading ut to conclude that both "sides" hold the same amount of blind faith.

you want to believe God doesnt exist,

And you want to believe God does exist.

i am absolutely sure of it

You're as absolutely sure of your beliefs as atheists are of theirs....but somehow assert that theirs is "more blind" than yours? How does that work?

Jesus said that anyone who truely obeys his doctrine will know if its from God or not,

I have a problem with that, because there's so many interpretations today of what his doctrine actually was.

Which one of these, specifically, do I need to truly obey in order to know if its from God or not? If I follow one and still don't know, is this just because its not the true doctrine? What about all those self-professed Christians who are following a doctrine other than the true one....are they all unable to really know if the God they believe in exists?

i am a previous professing atheist who can testify that his words were absolutely true

You keep reminding us that you're a religious convert as though it were somehow significant. Maybe you could explain the significance once, rather than just reasserting your past repeatedly?

Oh - and could you tell us which is the true doctrine that swayed you...which flavour of Christianity it is? I ask because I want to make sure and ignore all the other ones, and also tell all the Christians who come onto this forum who follow one of those incorrect doctrines that you say they cannot truly know if God exists or not.

Indeed, I'm willing to bet that you won't go to the Christianity forum and tell them yourself that there is only one true doctrine, and that anyone who believes a doctrine other than the one you subscribe to cannot truly know if God exists. I'm willing to be that you just save that argument for non-Christians, and possibly exclusively for atheists (ok, and agnostics)

DS

That was pretty funny. I instantly recognised that Cameron guy from that dog/body swap movie that's often on RTE http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0153992/
The other guy Comfort can be heard in the debate posted in another topic in this forum.

The highlight in the evolution bit for me was describing evolution as "male chauvinist at its core", which is pretty hilarious considering certain attitudes in a certain book these lads are into. Also much laughter to be had at Cameron pointing to his brain so us viewers know where it is and presumably become more adept at not using it. His point is, literally, bypass your brain, and you will find God. He's gonna have a hard time selling that one to the atheistic community I fear.

stevejazzx

DS wrote:

. Also much laughter to be had at Cameron pointing to his brain so us viewers know where it is and presumably become more adept at not using it. His point is, literally, bypass your brain, and you will find God. He's gonna have a hard time selling that one to the atheistic community I fear.

Yes...pure genius that part. Don't think about it just know. Wise chinese man say . stop thinking . just know .

'you don wanna start thinkng about too much, you'll get confused, now send us a postal order for 29 dollars and we'll send you a book which proves lots of wacky stuff is real, remember no thinking allowed'.

I'd love to read the small print on any of their products

*****

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'way of the master.com' would like take this opportunity to thank all it wonderful followers for their 'avid' support and urges their ongoing participation, financial and otherwise (we have no vacancies at present. ed, please no letters) deep into the future until of course we are all Judged in Armageddon in which case donations will no longer be necessary.

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Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

These guys should be winning hands-down. Maybe people aren't all that stupid after all!

Huh...thats actually a very interesting point.

bonkey

Zillah wrote:

Its looking like a hit and run.

Yup. Seagull posting.

ChildOfTheKing

gone two minutes and im hit with more replies than i expected

i will start off by that im not worthy to argue for God, but its by the foolishness of preaching in which he delights to save men

God is evident all around us....the videos make great points that the transitional forms for evolution are not there.....and what i think its amazing about evolution is the fact that something as dumb as a 'single cell' organism actually had the brains to evolve eventually into us randomly, seeing that all of our body parts are for use it shows an amazing mind behind it all....the bible says that Gods creation testifies of his existance, and truely his amazing work testifies....the fact that my soul, a soul that feels can actually rationalize and put it into words and type to you is proof of God, its just your hearts are so closed...the way the stars are so nicely spread out across the sky.....a big bang usually leaves a splat of paint in one area of the paper, but the stars cross the sky magnificantly....i wasnt convinced by arguments for Gods existance, but things like socializing with people, bonding with people....it didnt make any sense to me that we could be like animals and do this....the reason he goes to the concience is to show you that Gods law is Holy and right....if we battle only intellectually arguments tend to get heated because of pride and the law humbles you....there is far more evidence out there for a God than not for a God....i really dont want to get too deep into the intellectual arguments, because it is true, that until the Lord opens your eyes you will be blind....man is born in sin....i myself wouldnt have come to God if God didnt call me and open my eyes.....if you really want to know if Gods there, i encourage you to humbly and patiently go before him and ask him to help you, beg him, because he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble...to obey Christs doctrine and truely know hes there you must repent of your sin and surrender completely to him.....when he gives you the Holy Spirit you will have a supernatural relationship with him which is what Mr Comfort meant when he said in the debate that once you touch the furnace then you have gone out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience....Christs doctrine is this "Repent and believe the gospel" repent, surrender your life to him, and trust on his sacrafice.....even if it takes months......i will finish off what im saying with a letter i wrote to my dad....so that you can see i only tell you what i tell my loved ones....i grew up in an atheist/agnostic home where Christianity was never even spoken of....i have already told my dad a whole lot, but i made this letter so it could be clearer.....i explained to him all the supernatural things that have come with being a Christian in a lot more detail to him face to face, and about Jesus dying for our sins..............


Here is something I have written to help you better understand what I believe and even why
If you told me that a piece of metal was hot, I would believe you, then I could touch it and
After burning myself I would go out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience.
I have and always do experience God, and I know without a doubt he is really there,
it is knowledge, I know it with everything I am and would die beside that statement.
There is only three conclusions you can possibly come to after I tell you this
Im a liar, I am insane, or I am telling you the truth. I experience God all the time
The less I am in his will the more he withdraws his presence from me and I experience demonic
attack to discipline me into his will out of love as a father does. I strongly believe
that a father son relationship and a wife husband relationship were given to us as a gift
but also to show us how our relationship with God is to be. Proof of God biblically is what he made.
Imagine putting a paint can on a giant piece of paper, and putting a bomb in the paint can,
then the paint can explodes and the paint splatters on the paper, and boom a great picture appears
sold for millions of dollars. it wouldnt happen right....now imagine the big bang producing flowers, dears
polar bears, humans, men women and children, flowers, grass, oil, gold, diamonds, stars, the moon, the sun, snakes, dogs, cats
colors(can you even logically explain colors), bananas, oranges, the perfect solar system we live in, the beauty all around us.
Relationships, between wives and children and fathers.....ect socializing
all of it in which came from nothing but a big bang.



You would atleast expect for me to look at you and say "there is a God" and for you to have a foot
growing out of your head in which there was no use of it, to look back and laugh.
But you cant because we are so wonderfully designed and so is everything around us.
I just physically proved an intellegent designer to you if you really grasp my words.
God has a law though, and one day he will judge the entire world by that law. God is just in his
nature, and when someone who is guilty of a crime comes before a judge and says sorry
and the judge says "i can see you are sorry so i will let you go" Justice was not served
and according to the bible God will judge every single sin ever comitted since the beginning of the world
First I will show you his law, I am sure you have heard of the ten commandments. God gave them to the Jews
a long time ago to show his law. When we die it is the law he will judge us by. Whether we will go to heaven
or hell.

#1 Have no Gods besides me(everyone but Jesus has broken this commandment, to keep it we were required in order
that you have God at the center of your life every single moment, loving him with all our hearts, our mind, our strength and soul, the bible says)
#2 Make to yourself no Idols (im not fully sure how to explain this command but basically Idols are things
we put at the center of our lives other than God, things that take control over us...say i was to steal..my motive for stealing would be the idol in that...anything that has control over us or is like the God in our life)
#3 Do not take the name of the Lord in vain (using Jesus Christ or Gods name as a curse word instead
of the four letter curse words in order to express disgust...the God who gave you life and all that you have)
#4 Remember the sabbath day, keep it Holy. (God requires a day out of the week where we dont work)
#5 Honor your father and mother. (This is to in all instances in thought word and deed to honor your parents)
#6 do not kill. (the bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer)
#7 do not comitt adultery. (Jesus said that anyone who even looks to lust after anyone has already comitted adultery in their heart, before and after marriage)
#8 Do not steal. (anything ever stolen in your entire life, big or small)
#9 Do Not Lie. (even half truths are lies)
#10 Do not covet. (ever been envious of someone else, or blamefully wanted something that they had)

I myself am guilty of breaking all of the ten commandments...but this is Gods law

God made a way through Jesus Christ to be justified through the law, that God may in his nature remain just but for us to not take the punishment for our sins...The bible says that Christ commended his love for us that while we were still sinners he died for us...God manifest himself in the flesh, and was marred beyond even looking like a human according to the bible (sprinkling many nations with his blood) and on the cross he took our punishment, and bore all of our sin and God even looked away from him because he became a curse for us the bible says....then he went to hell for three days(the temperary place for people who die right now and are unjustified) and he rose from the dead, and is now alive in heaven being a mediator between us and God. the bible tells us that if we want to partake in this salvation of living forever, and being reconciled with God, we must repent and believe on Jesus Christ. The bible even promises that if we obey the doctrine of Christ we will find out whether he speaks only of himself, or if his words are from God. Anyone who repents of their sins and believes on Jesus Christ will be justified for all their sins and become the children of God.
I know without a doubt in the world God exists....a wise man once said, a man with an experience is not at the mercy of
a man with an argument, which is how i can say that i know. i have seen evidence that goes beyond any chance of psychological hollucinations, delusions...ect...stuff that absolutely CAN NOT be explained in any other way shape or form.
thank for reading this...i only tell you this stuff because i love you






(i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth)

in love
Jamie

Crucifix

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

and what i think its amazing about evolution is the fact that something as dumb as a 'single cell' organism actually had the brains to evolve eventually into us randomly

Ouch, my brain!
I'll stop reading there thanks.

2Scoops

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

I myself am guilty of breaking all of the ten commandments...but this is Gods law

...murder?:eek:

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

(i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth)

I think if you hang around for long enough you'll find that we're not an angry bunch at all. However, there can be a degree frustration though when true believers like yourself confuse your belief with truth, or evolution with some bizarre random process. Please, PLEASE read about evolution from a reputable source without an agenda (i.e. from a science textbook, not from a religious website).

In the spirit of Proverbs 18.15

Zillah

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

(i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth)

in love
Jamie

Ye se Jamie, here's the problem.

You are talking nonesense. Crap. Gibberish. Utter mental poo. The things that convince you of God's existence have been clearly shown to have other origins. Science doesn't explain everything and its not a bad thing to admit you don't have an answer. What is a bad thing is to just make up an answer, which is what religious people like you do. So while there may be things that science hasn't explained yet, that doesn't mean that the answer you just invent is true.

Its not that we don't like love and friendship or all the other stuff you say is because of your God, its that we also like the truth. And every single thing you say to support the existence of your God can be used to support any other God.

Why do you reject the infinite love of Shiva?! Why Jamie, when he so loves all the world that he danced into existence, why do you reject him? Clearly you have closed your heart to him...


As for transitional fossils, those guys in the video are just lying. Thats right, they're just lying. There are loads of transitional fossils. One biologist, when talking about the lack of transitional fossils (or the myth of) pointed out that a Palaentologist friend of his had just come back from a dig where they had been arguing heatidly over whether to call the fossils they had found "mammal-like-reptiles" or "reptile-like-mammals". There is a reason that all the smartest and most relevantly educated people in the world believe evolution.

Tell me Jamie, if its sooo clear that evolution is unscientiffic, then why oh why do 99% of scientists with relevant expertise insists it is true?

Scofflaw

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

a big bang usually leaves a splat of paint in one area of the paper, but the stars cross the sky magnificantly

I do hope that's based on a statistically significant number of Big Bangs.

Jamie, I'm sorry you have to ascribe your love of life to someone else, and I'm sorry you have to reduce the complexity of the universe to the cramped strictures of human invention, and that to do so you have to ignore the evidence in front of you. Most of all, I'm sorry you lack the self-confidence to face the universe without someone to hold your hand. I hope at some point you gain the courage of your parents.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

the videos make great points that the transitional forms for evolution are not there

They are there actually. This guy either doesn't know this or is lying about it (as Zillah says). Either way he probably shouldn't be asserting things on a subject he doesn't keep up with.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

what i think its amazing about evolution is the fact that something as dumb as a 'single cell' organism actually had the brains to evolve eventually into us randomly

That isn't what evolution says happened, so I would suggest being amazed by this will probably get you no where. For a start evolution is a natural process with no over all goal. You don't need brains to figure out what to evolve into, natural selection does that for you. Secondly it isn't a random process.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

seeing that all of our body parts are for use it shows an amazing mind behind it all

Not really, since all our body parts aren't actually there for much use. Your appendix for example, does very little (it might be connected with the lymphatic system, but is overkill if that is its only function). Or your little toe for example.

These were used in your ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago, but aren't any more. It would be a bit silly of a all powerful deity to design us with organs and features that we don't need and that actually get in the way.

Evolution on the other hand explains this quite well.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

there is far more evidence out there for a God than not for a God

Depends on what you mean by "evidence" For example you seem to be saying that because we are social creatures this is evidence for God. That, as they say, is stretching it a bit. :rolleyes:

You will see evidence for God everywhere if you convince yourself that everything is evidence for God. It becomes rather the chicken and the egg of evidence gathering.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

I have and always do experience God, and I know without a doubt he is really there,
it is knowledge, I know it with everything I am and would die beside that statement.

How do you know it exactly?

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

There is only three conclusions you can possibly come to after I tell you this
Im a liar, I am insane, or I am telling you the truth.

There is actually a 4th one. You don't realise that what you are experiencing isn't God but a natural process in the brain.

There is a theory that religion developed in our ancestors because they didn't realise that the internal voice in their head (that we all have) is actually ourselves. They thought it was something else, ie God. And the theory goes that some people still do think this is God speaking to them.

Now this isn't exactly what one would call a well supported theory, but it is interesting none the less, and could possibly explain why some people are convinced that God talks to them personally.

One way to test this is to see if that voice in your head actually tells you something you couldn't possibly know. Like who will win in the Irish game tonight and by what score.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

Imagine putting a paint can on a giant piece of paper, and putting a bomb in the paint can, then the paint can explodes and the paint splatters on the paper, and boom a great picture appears sold for millions of dollars. it wouldnt happen right....now imagine the big bang

You don't seem to understand what the big bang is. Things didn't come out of the big bang as complex objects, like horses and gold. What came out of the big bang was pretty simple fundamental particles. It took millions of years for these to form into atoms, and then billions of years for these atoms to increase in electrons to produce the heavier elements.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

But you cant because we are so wonderfully designed and so is everything around us.

We aren't wonderfully designed. We are pretty terribly designed. For example a large number of species have much much better eye sight than us. Why? Why do we not have the best eyesight possible if we were designed by an intelligence?

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

i have seen evidence that goes beyond any chance of psychological hollucinations, delusions...ect...stuff that absolutely CAN NOT be explained in any other way shape or form.

Such as?

Zillah

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

I just physically proved an intellegent designer to you if you really grasp my words.

Ok, lets put it this way.

*Reaches into his bag of atheist tricks*

If the universe and life is too well organised to exist without a designer, then any entity capable of designing it is even more organised and complex, and therefore requires an even greater designer to explain it.

So even if evolution is all wrong, the God-designer hypothesis is fundamentally flawed.

Gurgle

Zillah wrote:

any entity capable of designing it is even more organised and complex, and therefore requires an even greater designer to explain it.

So mathematically, the ultimate designer will be found is the same place as where parallel lines meet - at infinity.

God therefore does exist but purely as a mathematical construct.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

the videos make great points that the transitional forms for evolution are not there

Great points?
Thats one of the oldest and least valid arguements against evolution.

This may take some time:

Take a camera and travel all around the world. Slowly. On foot. Walk every square mile of the earth. Then swim all over all the lakes and oceans.

Take a picture of every millionth person, animal, fish, insect or bird you see.

You now have the equivalent of our complete fossil record of the last 3.5 billion years of evolution.

Do you think you will have examples of every variation of every creature that exists today?

A tenth of them?

One percent?

Dades

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth

Welcome back... what are are experiencing here is not anger... frustration maybe.

Also what you must realise is that most of us are happy ex-Christians (I spent 12 great years in a school ran by priests). Your tired old arguments have long since been filed under "Unsubstantiated".

Zillah

Gurgle wrote:

So mathematically, the ultimate designer will be found is the same place as where parallel lines meet - at infinity.

God therefore does exist but purely as a mathematical construct.

lol

Nerd jokes are great

stevejazzx

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

gone two minutes and im hit with more replies than i expected

i will start off by that im not worthy to argue for God, but its by the foolishness of preaching in which he delights to save men

God is evident all around us....the videos make great points that the transitional forms for evolution are not there.....and what i think its amazing about evolution is the fact that something as dumb as a 'single cell' organism actually had the brains to evolve eventually into us randomly, seeing that all of our body parts are for use it shows an amazing mind behind it all....the bible says that Gods creation testifies of his existance, and truely his amazing work testifies....the fact that my soul, a soul that feels can actually rationalize and put it into words and type to you is proof of God, its just your hearts are so closed...the way the stars are so nicely spread out across the sky.....a big bang usually leaves a splat of paint in one area of the paper, but the stars cross the sky magnificantly....i wasnt convinced by arguments for Gods existance, but things like socializing with people, bonding with people....it didnt make any sense to me that we could be like animals and do this....the reason he goes to the concience is to show you that Gods law is Holy and right....if we battle only intellectually arguments tend to get heated because of pride and the law humbles you....there is far more evidence out there for a God than not for a God....i really dont want to get too deep into the intellectual arguments, because it is true, that until the Lord opens your eyes you will be blind....man is born in sin....i myself wouldnt have come to God if God didnt call me and open my eyes.....if you really want to know if Gods there, i encourage you to humbly and patiently go before him and ask him to help you, beg him, because he resists the proud and gives grace to the humble...to obey Christs doctrine and truely know hes there you must repent of your sin and surrender completely to him.....when he gives you the Holy Spirit you will have a supernatural relationship with him which is what Mr Comfort meant when he said in the debate that once you touch the furnace then you have gone out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience....Christs doctrine is this "Repent and believe the gospel" repent, surrender your life to him, and trust on his sacrafice.....even if it takes months......i will finish off what im saying with a letter i wrote to my dad....so that you can see i only tell you what i tell my loved ones....i grew up in an atheist/agnostic home where Christianity was never even spoken of....i have already told my dad a whole lot, but i made this letter so it could be clearer.....i explained to him all the supernatural things that have come with being a Christian in a lot more detail to him face to face, and about Jesus dying for our sins..............


Here is something I have written to help you better understand what I believe and even why
If you told me that a piece of metal was hot, I would believe you, then I could touch it and
After burning myself I would go out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience.
I have and always do experience God, and I know without a doubt he is really there,
it is knowledge, I know it with everything I am and would die beside that statement.
There is only three conclusions you can possibly come to after I tell you this
Im a liar, I am insane, or I am telling you the truth. I experience God all the time
The less I am in his will the more he withdraws his presence from me and I experience demonic
attack to discipline me into his will out of love as a father does. I strongly believe
that a father son relationship and a wife husband relationship were given to us as a gift
but also to show us how our relationship with God is to be. Proof of God biblically is what he made.
Imagine putting a paint can on a giant piece of paper, and putting a bomb in the paint can,
then the paint can explodes and the paint splatters on the paper, and boom a great picture appears
sold for millions of dollars. it wouldnt happen right....now imagine the big bang producing flowers, dears
polar bears, humans, men women and children, flowers, grass, oil, gold, diamonds, stars, the moon, the sun, snakes, dogs, cats
colors(can you even logically explain colors), bananas, oranges, the perfect solar system we live in, the beauty all around us.
Relationships, between wives and children and fathers.....ect socializing
all of it in which came from nothing but a big bang.



You would atleast expect for me to look at you and say "there is a God" and for you to have a foot
growing out of your head in which there was no use of it, to look back and laugh.
But you cant because we are so wonderfully designed and so is everything around us.
I just physically proved an intellegent designer to you if you really grasp my words.
God has a law though, and one day he will judge the entire world by that law. God is just in his
nature, and when someone who is guilty of a crime comes before a judge and says sorry
and the judge says "i can see you are sorry so i will let you go" Justice was not served
and according to the bible God will judge every single sin ever comitted since the beginning of the world
First I will show you his law, I am sure you have heard of the ten commandments. God gave them to the Jews
a long time ago to show his law. When we die it is the law he will judge us by. Whether we will go to heaven
or hell.

#1 Have no Gods besides me(everyone but Jesus has broken this commandment, to keep it we were required in order
that you have God at the center of your life every single moment, loving him with all our hearts, our mind, our strength and soul, the bible says)
#2 Make to yourself no Idols (im not fully sure how to explain this command but basically Idols are things
we put at the center of our lives other than God, things that take control over us...say i was to steal..my motive for stealing would be the idol in that...anything that has control over us or is like the God in our life)
#3 Do not take the name of the Lord in vain (using Jesus Christ or Gods name as a curse word instead
of the four letter curse words in order to express disgust...the God who gave you life and all that you have)
#4 Remember the sabbath day, keep it Holy. (God requires a day out of the week where we dont work)
#5 Honor your father and mother. (This is to in all instances in thought word and deed to honor your parents)
#6 do not kill. (the bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer)
#7 do not comitt adultery. (Jesus said that anyone who even looks to lust after anyone has already comitted adultery in their heart, before and after marriage)
#8 Do not steal. (anything ever stolen in your entire life, big or small)
#9 Do Not Lie. (even half truths are lies)
#10 Do not covet. (ever been envious of someone else, or blamefully wanted something that they had)

I myself am guilty of breaking all of the ten commandments...but this is Gods law

God made a way through Jesus Christ to be justified through the law, that God may in his nature remain just but for us to not take the punishment for our sins...The bible says that Christ commended his love for us that while we were still sinners he died for us...God manifest himself in the flesh, and was marred beyond even looking like a human according to the bible (sprinkling many nations with his blood) and on the cross he took our punishment, and bore all of our sin and God even looked away from him because he became a curse for us the bible says....then he went to hell for three days(the temperary place for people who die right now and are unjustified) and he rose from the dead, and is now alive in heaven being a mediator between us and God. the bible tells us that if we want to partake in this salvation of living forever, and being reconciled with God, we must repent and believe on Jesus Christ. The bible even promises that if we obey the doctrine of Christ we will find out whether he speaks only of himself, or if his words are from God. Anyone who repents of their sins and believes on Jesus Christ will be justified for all their sins and become the children of God.
I know without a doubt in the world God exists....a wise man once said, a man with an experience is not at the mercy of
a man with an argument, which is how i can say that i know. i have seen evidence that goes beyond any chance of psychological hollucinations, delusions...ect...stuff that absolutely CAN NOT be explained in any other way shape or form.
thank for reading this...i only tell you this stuff because i love you






(i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth)

in love
Jamie

What about coconuts or even the humble spud?

magicbastarder

any god who would create humankind and then insist they spend their lives worshipping him is a complete and utter psychological basket case. i suggest he goes to see a shrink.

Zillah

magicbastarder wrote:

any god who would create humankind and then insist they spend their lives worshipping him is a complete and utter psychological basket case. i suggest he goes to see a shrink.

I've always found it quite interesting that the Biblical God just happened to behave like a really crazy Arab tribe leader...suspiciously like the kind of guys who wrote the book...

Fallen Seraph

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

the way the stars are so nicely spread out across the sky.....a big bang usually leaves a splat of paint in one area of the paper, but the stars cross the sky magnificantly



Imagine putting a paint can on a giant piece of paper, and putting a bomb in the paint can,
then the paint can explodes and the paint splatters on the paper, and boom a great picture appears
sold for millions of dollars. it wouldnt happen right....now imagine the big bang producing flowers, dears
polar bears, .... gold, diamonds, stars, the moon, the sun,
colors(can you even logically explain colors), bananas, oranges, the perfect solar system we live in, the beauty all around us.
Relationships, between wives and children and fathers.....ect socializing
all of it in which came from nothing but a big bang.

If these are among your reasons for belief in god I *really* recommend becoming acquainted with some physics.

Your objection to the way the sky is spread from the big bang is really quite simple to understand once you're acquainted with some of Newton's laws. When paint hits the paper a whole bunch of retarding forces kick in and bring it to rest. When the big bang goes off all that's necessary is that the initial force applied to everything is greater than the gravitational attraction and then nothing stops it from expanding. (and some other weird stuff which isn't exactly relevant). Knowing what we know at the moment it could quite reasonably be taken to be evidence of god if the stars did in fact look like a paint blob from earth.

Also once you get your head around the big bang itself occurring, an objection you don't appear to be making, then the occurence of many of the things you suggest are highly improbably are, in fact, almost a certainly given the phyical laws that we know govern everything. Gold, diamonds, stars, the solar system and whatnot. And I believe that colours being simply different wavelengths or visible light is pretty universally known... If what you're asking is why we see them as different colours, then I'm afraid the theory of evoluting explains that pretty damn adequately..

I'm afraid that your post displays some incredible ignorance of what you're talking about.. Which is, like others have said, probably why you think atheists are angry and whatnot. We don't actually eat babies!

Zombrex

Zillah wrote:

I've always found it quite interesting that the Biblical God just happened to behave like a really crazy Arab tribe leader

ROFL

humanji

Wicknight wrote:

We are wonderfully made, but then we, and all life, are very far from perfectly made. Far far from it in fact. Would this not hint that we weren't made by a god?

Well, apparently, God made man in his own image and likeness, so I'm guessing God is far from perfect too, which would explain the minor cock-ups!

lookinforpicnic

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

I have and always do experience God, and I know without a doubt he is really there,
it is knowledge, I know it with everything I am and would die beside that statement.

Could you please, please elaborate on this statement, as wicknight asks also. What is that makes so you so confident that you would die by this statement?

Is it all the meaningful things that have happened to you in your life ...which you attributed to god?
Is it all the chance concidences that you have encountered in your daily life ...which you have attributed to god's plan?
Is it all the love you have encountered...which you attributed to god?
Or the opposite hate etc...which you attributed to the absence of god or evil or whatever?
Is it your achievements.. which you have attributed to god's guidance?
Or some other countless personal episodes that you have encountered and which you have used god as the final explanation.

I think whatever reason you believe in god it is clearly not what you posted above - about the big bang resulting in humans by chance etc, which is i'm afraid a load of rubbish as the previous posts have pointed out ...clearly you don't know anything about the process of evolution. If you disagree with me, tell us why then its not just an ignorant rant about evolution, what sources or books did you read on evolution, where did you get your information.

Your deeply held believe in god was with you before you posted elaborations of a creationist pamphlet that you probably just read, and all the reasoning in the world exposing the nonsense of the post above is not going to change your deeply held personal believe.

This very personal believe or relationship with 'god' needs to be examined by you. Could it not be solely you and you alone that acheived, failed, loved, created or behaved with high morals. Why don't you consider taking responsibility for your own life and your place in society and stop using god as a crutch to answer all the questions (quickly, abruptly and definitely) about happenings in your life. Think for yourself about yourself and grow up.

MrB

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

If you told me that a piece of metal was hot, I would believe you, then I could touch it and
After burning myself I would go out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience.

If you told me that a piece of metal was hot, I would get a Thermometer and not get burnt.

OctavarIan

I'm only going to pick at parts of the first paragraph, since after reading it I honestly wasn't bothered with the rest.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

and what i think its amazing about evolution is the fact that something as dumb as a 'single cell' organism actually had the brains to evolve eventually into us randomly

It's not really random though. By you saying that you've shown that you've no idea whatsoever about the Theory of Evolution. I think this could help you though, fourth one down http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

the fact that my soul, a soul that feels can actually rationalize and put it into words and type to you is proof of God, its just your hearts are so closed...

But your soul isn't proven to exist, so that's not a fact. Therefore your 'proof' doesn't hold.[/quote]

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

the way the stars are so nicely spread out across the sky.....a big bang usually leaves a splat of paint in one area of the paper, but the stars cross the sky magnificantly....

If you were a tiny speck in the center of that paint splat you'd see the same effect.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

there is far more evidence out there for a God than not for a God....

You've yet to show us a single bit.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

i really dont want to get too deep into the intellectual arguments, because it is true, that until the Lord opens your eyes you will be blind....

I read this as: "I know I can't hold a logical arguement for gods' existence, so I'll just pour out another cliche'd 'fact'."

I actually lied when I said I read the first paragraph, I read up to there and skipped to the end because it was all so unfounded. Good look with your brainwashing though.

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

(i pray so deeply that you 'atheists' just stop being angry and just go to God, im not someone here to hurt you or get on your nerves, just someone sharing the truth)

However the manner in which you share it is what bothers me. You're being quite aggressive with your 'arguements' and spouting off facts that you can't back up. "just stop being angry and just go to God" That honestly sounds so immature I can barely find the words.

[edit]Checking out that site in the first post, it's obvious it's aiming purely at christians, it's pretty much encouraging people to brainwash others and trick them into becoming Christian, which is pretty unforgivable.
Also, I think that fact that they only interviewed people who were uneducated on the Theory of Evolution is another way they're trying to brainwash people. The fact that ChildOfTheKing can't hold an arguement here shows that when faced with people who know what they're talking about, the methods shown on that site fall flat on their face.

ChildOfTheKing

once again i already know i am not worthy to speak for God....far from it, but to emphasize more what i mean by id die by the statement, is that i have the Spirit of God living inside of me, and through it i have intimacy with God....a great majority of the people claiming to be Christian in the churches are not actually even saved, but decieved, and scripture even backs me up on it, in matthew 7(many will say to me on that day Lord Lord), and other parts....the sheep and the goats, the wise and the foolish virgins(the oil was the Holy Spirit)....if you really want to know if the God of the bible is real, dont close your mind entirely to the idea...but go to him and pray with a humble heart, over and over....God resists the proud scripture says but gives grace to the humble....if you want to know hes there, go to him, and not me.......i strongly believe he will help you if you just wait on him.....i experience God all the time, i experience his Spirit and its great to worship him....its just being in love with him, and praising him and giving your entire self to him.....when he makes you his child, he puts his Spirit inside of you, and you have a relationship with him....i used to think Christians were brainwashed too, and i was foolish, i absolutely despise the old me and where i used to be, i despise the title atheist, and you will too(admittedly if you wake up in hell right?) hell is not a scare tactic if it is a real place...go around and ask people if they would want to know about hell if it was a literal place and you will get yes's....i hated the thought of being decieved....but all i really have left for you is my testimony, and i have showed you the law, you see your guilty before God, your conscience testifies....now you can see my testimony, and all i say is if you look both ways before you cross the street precious soul...dont DARE run into death blindly.....seek the Lord, i absolutely know hes there
my testimony is here....how i went from atheist to believer
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm476197.html

the Lord Bless

Scofflaw

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

my testimony is here....how i went from atheist to believer
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm476197.html

OK, having read that - you were, for a while in your teens, rebellious against God, and then 'found Him' again. You've never been an atheist, nor were your parents, and you don't understand what the term actually means outside the context of your faith. Certainly you can have no idea whatsoever what it means to those of us who have been atheists for longer than you've been alive.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

my testimony is here....how i went from atheist to believer
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm476197.html
the Lord Bless

ChildOfTheKing judging by that essay, and assuming it is true, you have clearly had a very troubled life. I really don't think you should be posting here. I mean that in the best possible way, I have no wish to confront you on what you believe or think you have experienced. Instead I think you should be seeking counseling to deal with these issues properly and constructively. I don't think there is anything here that will do anything except make you more confused and disorientated about life. Professional help is what you should be turning to, not religion.

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

ChildOfTheKing judging by that essay, and assuming it is true, you have clearly had a very troubled life. I really don't think you should be posting here. I mean that in the best possible way.....

I must agree with this sentiment. I read your testimony, its quite a story. I really believe you would be better off posting on the Christianity Forum where you can meet and debate with others who share your deep faith.

2Scoops

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

if you really want to know if the God of the bible is real, dont close your mind entirely to the idea...but go to him and pray with a humble heart, over and over....

If you really want learn about the God of the Bible, don't close your mind entirely to alternative ideas:) Seek knowledge with a humble heart and above all be honest enough to consider evidence that goes against your beliefs. Engage your intellect and seek truth.

In the spirit of Proverbs 4.13.
In the spirit of Proverbs 18.15.
In the spirit of Job 33.3.
In the spirit of Job 34.4.

2Scoops

Asiaprod wrote:

I must agree with this sentiment. I read your testimony, its quite a story. I really believe you would be better off posting on the Christianity Forum where you can meet and debate with others who share your deep faith.

A psychologist might consider that a form of enabling:) . Surely the paranoid delusions/psychosis of ChildOfTheKing should not be encouraged?

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

ChildOfTheKing judging by that essay, and assuming it is true, you have clearly had a very troubled life. I really don't think you should be posting here. I mean that in the best possible way, I have no wish to confront you on what you believe or think you have experienced. Instead I think you should be seeking counseling to deal with these issues properly and constructively. I don't think there is anything here that will do anything except make you more confused and disorientated about life. Professional help is what you should be turning to, not religion.

I'm sorry to say my compassion entirely fails me here. It sounds, I'm sorry to say, not unlike my own late teens (17-19). It particularly reminds me of the experiences of some of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom did go the Satanist route. Most cleaned up their acts long ago, a couple have never quite climbed back onto the horse twenty years later - those that believed in the "external reality" of what they were actually just doing to themselves.

Frankly the whole thing is just self-indulgence, indulged to the point of jumping the rails entirely. Comments about how other people "don't understand" litter the text in one form or another - and yet the clearest thing to me is that the author has neither understood himself, not tried to. Instead, he has turned from the self-delusion of carnal gratification to the self-delusion of spiritual gratification - in the course of which he has wasted the time of, and probably seriously upset in some cases, countless people, including his family.

Either way, this is standard (well, to me, anyway) late teen drama. Turning it into the story of your life is one of the saddest, and stupidest, things it's possible to do - and it's pretty clear that's what the author intends to do.

absolutely no time for this kind of rubbish,
Scofflaw

lookinforpicnic

ChildOfTheKing wrote:

my testimony is here....how i went from atheist to believer
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm476197.html

I found your email quiet disturbing and offer you my sympathy. It is clear that you have suffered alot. However the reasons for your suffering are most likely due to an overindulgence of alcohol and drugs at an early age on top of a likely neurological predisposition for schizophrenic tendencies if not full blown psychotic episodes, rather than in my opinion demons and straying from god.

Clearly as i said in an earlier post you have very specific personal reasons for believing in god, and given the seriousness of your situation as you protrayed in the email I am tempted to say no more and advice you to see a counselling psychologist or a psychiatrist to discuss your issues. However, given the typically nature of your experiences I am urged to say a couple of things.

During psychotic or delusional episodes (which can even be solely drug & alcohol induced) the brain concotes issues that are very important and meaningful to you and amplifies these out all proportions. It looks to me from your email that you did indeed suffer through such psychotic episodes. It also looks to me that you always believed (or at least were heavily aware...by the way u never were an atheist as scofflaw points out, just because you behaved in what you believed was a godless manner does not mean that you are an atheist) in god & hell etc. and what most likely happened is that you experienced brief episodes of psychosis and without guidance in such a serious situation you attributed your changes in state to demons and the like. It is quite common for psychotic episodes to manifest as religious themes simply because of the unique position religion holds in questions of importance in a school childrens education..."why do we do good things? the child asks, "We will go to hell if we don't" the religion teacher/priest tells us. A nice simple explanation that the brain can easily get to grip with but also one the brain can induce and warp easily in a psychotic state.

I am very happy that you came out of what looked like "living hell" but there could have been many different reasons for you getting better all of which could have nothing to do with you literally having 'the spirit of god in you'. I suggest you read about episodes of psychosis and learn more about the condition and see how similar it was to your situation in your teens and I would bet that you will encounter some stories with similarities with your own but also similar ones that don't involve religious themes. Reading about such stories and explanations for them may give you a better understanding why religious themes played such a big part in your life.


Your sincerely

Lookinforpicnic