SCTV Digital (Cork deflector gone digital!)

Solair

I didn't realise that Cork's South Coast Community Television has gone digital!

http://www.sctvdigital.com/

Seems they've rolled out a full digital service using 11Ghz transmitters.
Includes sky+ like PVR !!

Currently around 60 channels and Sky By wire video on demand.

jimbob

Saw that alright, but can you tell me if its a mmds or a terrestrial service.

Solair

I suppose really it's an MMDS service given that it's operating at 11Ghz+ rather than on normal terrestrial frequencies.

The set top boxes look interesting:
http://www.sctvdigital.com/equipment.html

From their website:
A receiving antenna (It will consist of a small dish - 30cm to 45 cm depending on location) and an LNB (low noise block converter) This antenna is similar in appearance to a small satellite dish.
A lashing kit and pole to attach the antenna to the chimney or side wall.
A length of TV cable and a set top box (STB)

watty

Ironic since they where loud critics of MMDS. Yes it is a form of MMDS.

darkmaster2

Some of the channels are FTA and can be recieved with a standard dish/lnb and sat reciever

watty

Though some dishes need to be mounted upside down on the mount. Some dishes can't go as low as horizontal. I've seen mounts with a minimum of 8 degrees elevation. Elevation is zero of course.

Sponge Bob

what about satellite services in these bands, SCTV got frequencies between 11739mhz and 12012mhz for their 'mmds' service (thats an accurate description) p3 of that link.

a quick shufty at lyngsat shows potential interference to lots of channels, eg

italian tv on hotbird
encrypted sky channels on astra2
french pay tv on astra 1

and thats only a quick shufty .

watty

Yes. I think it is mad. Especially since the "Deflectors" are supposed to closed down whern DTT starts. I can't see the logic of this licence allocation.

There is also an additional problem. The demo to Comreg involved French gear marketed as Hypercable. It is alleged elsewhere that the actual gear deployed is quite different and inferior. I don't claim this. I don't know.

Freddie59

watty wrote:

Ironic since they where loud critics of MMDS. Yes it is a form of MMDS.

Amazing. So this system is not a health hazard then? But the Chorus one is?

darkmaster2

I dont think interference will be much of an issue. You have to be pretty dead on with your dish to recieve the sctv signal. And your average sky dish isnt going to be aligned anywhere near close enough to pick up interference, except maybe in the immediate vicinity of the transmitters. I imagine the power output would be in the milliwatts?

pa990

What channels are FTA at the moment, and does anyone have know where these digital transmitters are.

also .. is it possible to recieve these signals with a regular LNB, or is a special /adapted LNB required ?



edit: i found this info (see pg 37): As for the reception system, it cannot use a satellite antenna or LNB, in no cases. Indeed, it is a
terrestrial system and it must be able to manage the Near to Far as well as various modes of fading,
raleigh, rain, snow, dusting and, instead of the satellite that needs 6 dB of fading margin, our system
required 40 dB of fading marging .. http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:g_K6yzEKyMkJ:www.mds.fr/products_all/Annex%2520D%2520Hypercable%2520Channels%2520C-I%2520Sharing%2520V5.pdf+mmds+hypercable+reception+equipment&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

Sponge Bob

Makes sense this way , a sat only has to deal with clouds which go to 30000 feet on a bad day and no higher, typically say 20000 feet or 4 miles of fade inducing cack . There could be a lot more bad weather horizontally , 10 or 15 miles of it in fact depending on transmitter spacing and you cannot predict where the cloud is in relation to teh transmitter, it could be a near cloud or a remote cloud where with a sat its a remote cloud for sure .

pa990 found a very good primer on the co existence of sat and hypercable page 16 onwards of the doc indicates that the polarisation of the signal parallel to the ground will avoid interference with LNBs as long as they are NOT NEAR THE TRANSMITTER . The transmitter should be 400m from the nearest sat dish .

A satellite subscriber is looking Cartoon Network on Astra (19,2°Est) frequency 11,023 GHz
Horizontal polarization, If he is turning his antenna westbound and keep the same frequency
(11,023 GHz) and same polarization (Horizontal), he will first loose the Astra Signal and then
recover the next satellite signal which will be Eutelsat 2F3 (16° EST) and will receive the
channel “The music Factory” .
Only 3,2° are separating the 2 satellites using the same frequency without jamming together.
With the HyperCable transmitter on the ground, there are a lot more than 3° separation
angle with the satellite, this make impossible to jam the satellite reception.
HyperCable transmitter proximity example:
The HyperCable transmitter antenna has a vertical transmission angle of 5° maximum.
If a satellite subscriber is situated below the HyperCable transmission field he won’t receive
the HyperCable signal (fig 1-2).
But this situation is marginal, as usually there is no satellite subscribers close to the existing
HyperCable transmitters.
With a transmitter installed on a 30 Meters mast, the HyperCable subscriber will be able to
receive the HyperCable signal at 343 meters or more from the transmitter, the angle to
receive the HyperCable transmitter will be 5° or less.
As the Satellite horizon position will be 36°, the satellite subscriber antenna is separating the
2 signals, and the terrestrial HyperCable transmitter can’t be received by the satellite
subscriber.
Bellow 343 meters, the HyperCable signal won’t be received and only the Satellite will be
received.
(In some cases secondary transmission lobes can be received bellow 343m, therefore it is
recommended to avoid satellite reception within the next 400meters close to the HyperCable
At 343 meters from the HyperCable transmitter (fig 1-3) - (minimum distance reception); the
HyperCable subscriber will have to set his antenna site with an angle of +5° in order to
receive the HyperCable transmission.
He will have to move his antenna at +36° if he wants to receive Telecom 2B, which make a
difference of de 31° between the terrestrial transmitter and the satellite; (this difference is far
superior than the existing satellite separation).
As a satellite dish has a signal selectivity of less than ±1,5°(-30dB), it is therefore impossible
to receive any Interference between the 2 signals

Now thats what applies to Hypercable if indeed that is the system in use.

If its not hypercable I am sure some of the physics apply but I am equally fairly sure the 400m rule should apply. Some local would know where the transmitters were and where they could cause an interference contour with dishes .

If it has a return path in those frequencies it gets awful messy

pa990

i would be interested in experimenting, and try to receive these FTA signals.. hopefully by using an inverted sat dish, does anyone know what sort of LNB is required.
I mailed SCTV a few months back inquiring about equipment, but all they said was that, they would supply all equipment required.

i suppose knowing the location of their digital transmitters would help as well, i dont fancy waving a dish around all day in every possible direction


(i have no intention of hacking / cracking or obtaining sctv services by deception. i only want to see if i can receive fta signals)

darkmaster2

I know a person who did some experiments using just a standard fta satellite reciever/dish/lnb. dish was aligned fairly easily with a cheap satfinder.

pa990 wrote:

i would be interested in experimenting, and try to receive these FTA signals.. hopefully by using an inverted sat dish, does anyone know what sort of LNB is required.
I mailed SCTV a few months back inquiring about equipment, but all they said was that, they would supply all equipment required.

i suppose knowing the location of their digital transmitters would help as well, i dont fancy waving a dish around all day in every possible direction


(i have no intention of hacking / cracking or obtaining sctv services by deception. i only want to see if i can receive fta signals)

Sponge Bob

did he get any oul telly off it ?

(SB wonders if some cute Corkman is about to invent a very odd diseq motor program with extra degrees of pan and tilt and flip )

darkmaster2

He got something alright

Symbol Rate 27000 for all
Everything scrambled (except the ones I have noted as 'FREE')

All Horizontal

11739 GHz
BBC2 England (FREE)
BBC News 24 (FREE)
BBC1NI (FREE)
Bravo
CBBC Channel
CBeebies
BBC3
BBC4
Sky Cinema 2
Sky Cinema 1

11778
SCTV Info Channel (FREE)
RTE1 (FREE)
RTE2 (FREE)
TG4 (FREE)
TV3 (FREE)
Setanta Sports 2

11817
Nat Geo Wild
Eurosport
TCM
Chelsea
Setanta Ireland
Nat Geo
$Movies24


11856
ITV1Wales
Paramount Comedy
MTV
CNN (FREE)
UK History
E4
VH1
MTV2
Nickelodeon


11895
NASN Ireland
Sky Movies 2
Sky Movies 1
Sky Movies 4
Sky Movies 5
Sky Movies 6
Sky Movies 3
Sky Movies 8
Channel 6 (FREE - Flagged Pay)
ALL RADIO (all FREE)


11934
Eurosport 2 UK
Sky Sport Extra
More 4
Cartoon Network
Boomerang
Hallmark
Racing UK
Sky Sport1

11973
TCM2
Setanta Sports1
Nick Jr
Sky Sports 2
Channel 4
Sky Sports 3
FX

12012
Channel 6 (FREE - Flagged Pay)
Setanta Golf
UKTV Gold
Bravo
Sky Movies 7
UKTV Bright Ideas
Living
Trouble


I have heard that the encryption is conax, although I havent verified that.

Sponge Bob

would that not make it a DVB-S signal as distinct from a DVB-C or DVB-T signal and therefore a Terrestrial Satellite System not strictly MMDS ...or does it matter any more

Freddie59

Sponge Bob wrote:

a Terrestrial Satellite System

Now think of what you're saying................:rolleyes:

Rippy

Sponge Bob wrote:

Makes sense this way , a sat only has to deal with clouds which go to 30000 feet on a bad day and no higher, typically say 20000 feet or 4 miles of fade inducing cack . There could be a lot more bad weather horizontally , 10 or 15 miles of it in fact depending on transmitter spacing and you cannot predict where the cloud is in relation to teh transmitter, it could be a near cloud or a remote cloud where with a sat its a remote cloud for sure .

pa990 found a very good primer on the co existence of sat and hypercable page 16 onwards of the doc indicates that the polarisation of the signal parallel to the ground will avoid interference with LNBs as long as they are NOT NEAR THE TRANSMITTER . The transmitter should be 400m from the nearest sat dish .



Now thats what applies to Hypercable if indeed that is the system in use.

If its not hypercable I am sure some of the physics apply but I am equally fairly sure the 400m rule should apply. Some local would know where the transmitters were and where they could cause an interference contour with dishes .

If it has a return path in those frequencies it gets awful messy

I know from speaking to SCTV engineer of a test done near the Viaduct on the Bandon road.
A dish was set in such a position that it could receive SCTV from Spur Hill and also Astra 2 without adjusting the azimuth of the dish (ie. directly in line).
By adjusting the elevation only, it was possible to receive the sky channels (vertical) with no interference,by lowering the elevation SCTV could be received (horizontal) with no interference.
In the many satellite installations and service calls I have done since SCTV digital started, I have seen no evidence of intrference on the frequencies used.

Sponge Bob

Rippy wrote:

In the many satellite installations and service calls I have done since SCTV digital started, I have seen no evidence of intrference on the frequencies used.

That makes it an intelligent reuse of spectrum then which is always to be commended.

watty

It's either Hypercable or a rip-off copy.
There WILL be problems.

Radiowaves reflect off buildings and hills etc.

darkmaster2

watty wrote:

It's either Hypercable or a rip-off copy.
There WILL be problems.

Radiowaves reflect off buildings and hills etc.

These are extremely low power 11ghz signals. The chance of interference due to reflections from buildings and hills is tiny. The chance that a sky dish is focused on one of their transmitters is even tinier.
The immediate area of the tx is probably the only place for interference to be a problem.

Zaphod

darkmaster2 wrote:

He got something alright

Symbol Rate 27000 for all
Everything scrambled (except the ones I have noted as 'FREE')

All Horizontal

11739 GHz
BBC2 England (FREE)

What were the maximum signal strength and quality readings he obtained?

Solair

All I know is that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of Newscorp/BSkyB by causing interference to hundreds of thousands of customers dishes. You could find yourself, as a small community group, dealing with the nastiest lawyers Rupert could lay his hands on. Not to mention making yourself very unpopular with anyone with a sky dish that was being interfered with.

There are a LOT of sky digital subscribers in their footprint. Chorus/Multichannel didn't ever have the best PR or quality of service and, even in cabled areas, sky penitration is probabally a lot higher in Cork than it is in Dublin.

I certainly know a lot of people who chucked Chorus cable in favour of sky when they upgraded to bigger format TVs as they were stuck with a service that consistantly provided poor analogue reception via a primative jerrold decoder and mono sound with no idea when digital might arrive.

So there are LOTS of sky subs

I personally think they'd have been a lot better off getting SCTV involved with the regional rollout of DVB-T, digital terrestrial, rather than duplicating it with yet another digital MMDS platform!

Surely SCTV could have been given a multiplex on the DTT platform in exchange for shutting down UHF services.

It seems like a lot of hassle for a service that will really only fill a niche that ought to be served by DTT i.e. it's providing a fairly limited number of digital channels. Chorus' MMDS service is already of questionable financial viability unless they drastically ramp up the channel packages and very soon! I can't see how they plan to compete with sky in the long term unless they start providing some more interesting content and tripple play services etc.

aphex™

They're licensed by Comreg. Theres nothing Sky could do.

Sponge Bob

Its also a proof of concept , in Ireland , with high sat penetration but not that many high multipather buildings, to a degree Solair.

I would have been very sceptical about the possible co existence of sat and 'terrestrial' in the same spectrum and if the sat system installers in Cork are not seeing interference and callouts to fix the problems then it seems that SCTV are fine .

When ARE SCTV releasing their UHF spectrum for reuse by the way ?????

Why can this system not co exist with DTT going forward, let DTT supply free channels and then let the customer pay for a commercial mux package on top or this ..or both .

Finally, SCTV have c.300mhz of spectrum near 11ghz but a cheap LNB can scan a full 2Ghz between 10.7 and 12.7Ghz . Plenty more spectrum for re use if this scheme works out well .

Freddie59

Sponge Bob wrote:

if this scheme works out well .

Remains to be seen.

John1000

watty wrote:

There is also an additional problem. The demo to Comreg involved French gear marketed as Hypercable. It is alleged elsewhere that the actual gear deployed is quite different and inferior. I don't claim this. I don't know.

You seem to right about it not being the french system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDS_America

watty

So they are in technical breach of licence ALREADY. A licence that has no logic.

Sponge Bob

http://www.broadbandweek.com/news/010521/010521_news_dbs.htm

2001

Northpoint would rely on the same frequencies in the 12.2 to 12.7 GHz band that are used by the direct broadcast satellite TV providers DirecTV Inc. and EchoStar Communications Corp. The satellite TV industry is adamantly opposed to this plan and the debate already has taken on a circus-like atmosphere over the last few months, with allegations of intense partisan and political maneuvering reaching all the way from the King Ranch in Texas to power brokers on Capitol Hill.

and

Now comes MDS America Inc., the U.S. licensee of a French company that has deployed a technology known as Hypercable in several sites overseas. MDS came knocking on the FCC's door in late March with a filing that hinges on two critical passages.
"MDS International has answered conclusively the main question that has been argued over for years and in excruciating detail in this proceeding: a terrestrial system can co-exist successfully with satellite systems in the 12.2 to 12.7 GHz frequency band. MDS International has demonstrated this through real world operational systems, not through an abstract paper war," the company states.

So it is kinda the same as hypercable and has licenced hypercable in the US .
http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=772&wit_id=2128

2002

Senate Hearing on co existing with satellite ( I assume under oath but could be corrected)

Some of these systems share frequencies on an interference-free basis with DBS-DTH satellite services in their areas. MDS America hopes to introduce this innovative terrestrial broadband technology into the U.S. market. As I noted previously, we strongly support the FCC’s May 2002 decision to auction the MVDDS spectrum for terrestrial use. By establishing a level playing field, the FCC will encourage the most efficient and rapid introduction of the MVDDS spectrum-sharing technology throughout the United States.

Finally

http://broadcastengineering.com/news/broadcasting_fccs_mvdds_auction/

2004

FCC procedes to auction this spectrum

The FCC auction of spectrum for Multichannel Video Distribution and Data Service (MVDDS) ended last week, raising total net bids of $118,721,835. The auction ended after 49 rounds of bidding.
The auction included 214 geographic area licenses, of which 192 received winning bids. Each license consists of one 500 MHz block of unpaired spectrum in the 12.2 – 12.7 GHz band. Permissible operations include any digital fixed non-broadcast service including one-way direct-to-home/office wireless service.
Licensees are permitted to provide one-way video programming and data services on a non-common carrier and/or common carrier basis. Mobile and aeronautical services are not authorized. Two-way services may be provided by using other spectrum or media for the return or upstream path.

The compromise appears to be that it is suitable for broadcast on the grounds that any interference will occur near the transmitter and can be rectified in that area but there is no return path permitted in the band just in case .

Frankly if it really were bad news for sat services the yanks surely should have noticed by now.


I wonder

watty

They are still talking a about Power Line Networking too in USA (BPL). They have power cuts every sumer in California. I wouldn't look to USA for Technical leadership. They are profit driven, not quality driven.

Sponge Bob

Powerline is different, its always proven to interfere with something or other and in fairly short order.

There is an element of 'holy grail' about powerline that will lead to further temptations to trial it ....but hopefully not here where we will need those frequencies for day to day marine safety .

Let the Americans test it in Colorado if their military will let them , remember Manchester and the unforeseen street light beacons

One example is the Nor.Web joint venture formed by Nortel Networks and British energy company United Utilities in 1997. Technical problems in its access BPL trial in Manchester (UK) - famously involving street lights near the test site acting as antennas for the 2-10 MHz band with interference to the BBC's World Service, Civil Aviation Authority and GCHQ - and the expense of the joint venture led to closure of Nor.Web in 1999. Across the Channel German equipment giant Siemens abandoned the BPL business in 2001.

But terrestrial sat is so much lower power and far more controlled.

nadav

I am amazed to find this thread. It has everything to do with the argument that has sprung up at Wikipedia. It started with a long edit war since march between employees of MDS America (MDSA)and MDS International (MDSI) (the French company). MDSA used to be the North American licensee of MDSI for the HyperCable technology, a terrestrial based system that uses the 12.2-12.7 GHz range. It shares that band with satellite without interference if precautions are taken. MDSI used to be the company that was providing the technology for SCTV. I am not sure what has happened since, but basically, MDSA and MDSI hate each other and have been battling it out on our pages at Wikipedia. I would appreciate it if you guys have any info at all about the SCTV technology, namely where it comes from and the whole story behind it.

You can read the Wikipedia articles hereMDS America
MVDDS
MVDDS dispute

Check out the discussion pages for those articles to read the ridiculous arguments we've been having about this whole issue.

watty

The French guys did the demo so that SCTV got a licence (which since the "deflectors" only for UHF till DTT starts, Why without a spectrum auction nationally, why the special treatment).

The French guys claim current installed gear "is different" and does not meet the licence terms. Comreg are silent on the issue.


The ESB trial of Powerline showed PLT up badly. ESB are more inclined to stick with Fibre for data.

Sponge Bob

/me does not want to wade into a wikiwar but this is a very amusing falling out between erstwhile partners . The yanks must have nicked the sctv deal off the french

I bet comreg will do nothing, they are masters of that

Solair

Wouldn't the equipment need approval and certification to operate in Ireland (and indeed the EU)

Even basic CE certification.

watty

Not really.. For retail yes. Unfortunately equipment still works even without type approval.

TheDriver

Am I correct in saying that if one lives near the city, you could get the RTE channels FTA using upside dish and standard equipment and maybe use diseqc to connect up to normal Astra 2 FTA dish and naturally not breaking any encoding? Makes me wonder why SCTV doesn't have those encoded as its their system? Or would this be illegal (apologies mod if this in stepping over the mark?)

darkmaster2 wrote:

He got something alright

Symbol Rate 27000 for all
Everything scrambled (except the ones I have noted as 'FREE')

All Horizontal

11739 GHz
BBC2 England (FREE)
BBC News 24 (FREE)
BBC1NI (FREE)
Bravo
CBBC Channel
CBeebies
BBC3
BBC4
Sky Cinema 2
Sky Cinema 1

11778
SCTV Info Channel (FREE)
RTE1 (FREE)
RTE2 (FREE)
TG4 (FREE)
TV3 (FREE)
Setanta Sports 2

11817
Nat Geo Wild
Eurosport
TCM
Chelsea
Setanta Ireland
Nat Geo
$Movies24


11856
ITV1Wales
Paramount Comedy
MTV
CNN (FREE)
UK History
E4
VH1
MTV2
Nickelodeon


11895
NASN Ireland
Sky Movies 2
Sky Movies 1
Sky Movies 4
Sky Movies 5
Sky Movies 6
Sky Movies 3
Sky Movies 8
Channel 6 (FREE - Flagged Pay)
ALL RADIO (all FREE)


11934
Eurosport 2 UK
Sky Sport Extra
More 4
Cartoon Network
Boomerang
Hallmark
Racing UK
Sky Sport1

11973
TCM2
Setanta Sports1
Nick Jr
Sky Sports 2
Channel 4
Sky Sports 3
FX

12012
Channel 6 (FREE - Flagged Pay)
Setanta Golf
UKTV Gold
Bravo
Sky Movies 7
UKTV Bright Ideas
Living
Trouble


I have heard that the encryption is conax, although I havent verified that.

watty

It's a grey area. It's obviously a Wireless Cable system like Chorus Analogue or Digital MMDS.

Connecting to a cable system without subscription is theft, even if the channels are clear.

But these people unlike regular MMDS are using a regular broadcast band. If you had good lawyers there is a chance you would win in court.

I'd rather watch BBC via satellite and Irish TV via a regular aerial, given the quality and reliability of these transmissions.

Even MMDS, receiving a clear signal (Digital or Analogue) that isn't scrambled or encoded with your own equipment is a very grey area that remains to be tested in court.

If you use or have a receiver with a card slot, or a PC receiver, then you can't prove you didn't steal encrypted programs and you will have a hard time. Even if you only ever watched the "clear" channels.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

If you use or have a receiver with a card slot, or a PC receiver, then you can't prove you didn't steal encrypted programs and you will have a hard time. Even if you only ever watched the "clear" channels.

Very true . And if these 'upside down dishes' become common ...only in Cork then you will be easy to detect unlike cable theft which can be v discreetly done .

MisterAnarchy

I rang South Coast up today.
Seems they are expanding .
The next transmitter to go online is for Mallow in about 8-10 weeks time.
They also said that the Pvr boxes had a fault so had to be returned and wont be available for another 6 months.

Freddie59

MisterAnarchy wrote:

I rang South Coast up today.
Seems they are expanding .
The next transmitter to go online is for Mallow in about 8-10 weeks time.
They also said that the Pvr boxes had a fault so had to be returned and wont be available for another 6 months.

Does anyone here have this service? If so what's it like?

watty

Bad value compared with Sky 2 x mix packs or a FTA satellite + tv aerial.

Mossy Monk

I see a SCTV van in Dungarvan all the time.

mikeym

Mossy Monk wrote:

I see a SCTV van in Dungarvan all the time.

I have also seen an sctv van in lemybrien must be offering the service to the good folk in co.waterford.

Ulsterman 1690

If you use or have a receiver with a card slot, or a PC receiver, then you can't prove you didn't steal encrypted programs and you will have a hard time. Even if you only ever watched the "clear" channels.

Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" :rolleyes:

(Then again it never did seem to apply to TV I mean look at licence inspectors)

TheDriver

To dig up an oul thread, I see a good few dishes popping up around the place here, odd looking things. Anyone know if any of the channels are FTA anymore or has it all been encrypted?

Freddie59

TheDriver wrote: »

To dig up an oul thread, I see a good few dishes popping up around the place here, odd looking things. Anyone know if any of the channels are FTA anymore or has it all been encrypted?

Drove from Waterford to Cork (and through the Cork City surburbs) last week. Saw two of them. Sky dishes angled downwards.

TheDriver

They look very odd yokes altogether and all the ones around here seem to be on a chimney lashing and rather long pole so hope the wind doesn't have too much fun with them. The RTE signal was FTA when it first starter with rest encrypted so curious is it the same, must have an experiement later.

Freddie59

TheDriver wrote: »

They look very odd yokes altogether and all the ones around here seem to be on a chimney lashing and rather long pole so hope the wind doesn't have too much fun with them. The RTE signal was FTA when it first starter with rest encrypted so curious is it the same, must have an experiement later.

Saw one near Midleton today. It must have been on at least a 30 FOOT pole (with no stays). So it doesn't go round corners after all....http://www.iolfree.ie/~icdg/sctv_mmds.htm A single transmitter covering a radius of 200Km.......:eek::rolleyes:

Imagine - a microwave signal. Hmmm....trying to remember which group absolutely castigated that system in the past.:D

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=34797

lucozader

interesting