Subscription via Paypal Rant

Hagar

I just got a subscription renewal notice telling me my annual sub is up so fair enough I go to pay it and find that there still is only only one way to pay ie Paypal.

Like many people I think Paypal Sucks so I won't be using it. Ever. I want to support the site but it's not being made easy to do so.

Last year I had to send a cheque to another Mod in Ireland who doesn't know me from a hole in the ground. He trusted me with his home address and I in turn trusted him with a €50 cheque. Then he had to wait for it to clear then he paid on my behalf. While I am grateful for his kindness, that is an awful lot of effort for two people to go through to give someone money.

Explain to me again why you can't accept any credit, debit cards or cheques because I wasn't convinced last time. I honestly thought in the last year a more inclusive sytem would have been devised. There must be lost income in there somewhere.

I accept that there is an admin overhead in lodging cheques, but tbh I have never found lodging cheques to my acccount to be anything but a pleasure. Fair enough it would be a bit of a pain to lodge dozens of €5 from the same guys every month but I think the annual subs at €50 a pop is worth some effort.

According to the Show Groups page the number of subscribers is relatively small and the subs should be manageable. I realise that the detail on that page may not be entirely accurate but even it it was out by a factor of 5 it's still not un-mangeable.

That's my rant over. Sorry if it sounded disrespectful, it wasn't intended to, but I am very frustrated and dissapointed. As I said earlier I want to support the site but it's not being made easy to do so.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hagar

No, I'm in France, see Location to the left <===.

They still take quick lodgements over there, yes? Just drop it in the slot anytime.

6th

I dont mind the paypal too much and would be more than happy to subscribe for anyone that wanted too.

I counted the subs and there are 254 (ish) so if all of those are annual subs thats €12,700 ..... more people should sub imo.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

RuggieBear

and a nice cheque it was too!

Hagar

Ruggiebear - International Banker Extrordinare.

RuggieBear

we can start the dance again if you like?:p

Hagar

I started this thread to raise the profile of the payment issue and notwithstanding Ruggie's kind offer the issue remains.

I'll probably take you up on that. PM to follow.

mike65

Hagar whats so awful about paypal? Is it just bad or bad in a French way? (obscure local payment clearance laws etc)

Mike.

Hagar

I just don't trust the fukkers. Who are they and who gave them the power they are exercising over peoples finances? Who regulates them?

Click on the link Paypal Sucks in the OP. It is more eleoquent than I could be.

r3nu4l

Well I did pay my subscritption by PayPal and recently I hired my wedding car via PayPal as well so I don't mind using it per se, but it would be nice to have some other options.

Not everyone has a PayPal account or is familiar enough with online payments to trust PayPal so a pay by Credit/Debit Card or Standing Order feature would be nice. I wouldn't mind paying a credit/debit card handling charge either so long as it wasn't exorbitant (like some low-cost airline carriers we could mention).

I must have missed the last time there was an explanation as to why these features aren't feasible but for now I give Hagars demented rant a +1

BuffyBot

TBH I think the site went to Paypal only to simplify matters for the admin team (as I can imagine doing it a multitude of others ways like what used to happen, must of been a logisitical nightmare).

I don't tend to give much credence to x-organisationsucks.com type sites, and unsurprisingly they're set up by people who have grudges against the organisation in question, and therefore are unlikely to give a balanced view of the situation.

Most, if not all, my paypal transactions have been problem free over the years, as I suspect most peoples tend to be.

jesus_thats_gre

Why not allow people to pay via bank transfer and provide them with their individual subscriber number to use as the reference for the transfer? I am pretty sure that each sub would have a unique identifier other than their username?

Hagar

A transfer without a reference number costs about 25c.
A transfer with a reference number costs €45 courtesy of Bank of Ireland.:mad:

ecksor

Use of paypal is a matter of convenience. We used to accept cash and cheques but it became a little unmanageable and he who controls the pursestrings decided to stop it, which reduces our flexibility as you've noted but on balance was the right decision for us at the time despite any potential lost income you mention.

We're always open to improving our facilities for users, even if things can be slow to change at times. We'll examine other options. It may well happen that by the end of the year it will become far more practical to open up our accepted payment methods.

Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

RuggieBear

perhaps the online buying/auctions regulars could suggest some good easy and/or flexible alternatives for getting money when subscribing

mike65

How do I subscribe? I got this when I went to the page in question via the sidemap

mike65, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?

If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Mike.

Ruu_Old

mike65, you go into UserCP->Paid Subscriptions.

Chinafoot

What about a direct bank transfer?

I don't have a credit card and tbh I'm in no hurry to get one and it can be a bit of a pain asking to use someone else's for stuff like this. I know there's the option of one of those 3v cards, but would a bank transfer via internet banking not be an even handier option?

In the description that appears on the boards.ie account you can put your user name and once the admins check it on a regular enough basis it should be pretty manageable.

I know that doesn't solve the issue of automatic renewal for subscriptions but it's just a thought.

mike65

Cheers Ruu

Mike.

gline

i also have no problem with paypal, but for others it would be nice to have different payment methods.

I think bank transfer or a credit card payment system would be the only ways of doing this. Is there no other company boards.ie can use to take and manage the payments?? and just forward the info on to the admins on payments, for a small fee?

BuffyBot

In the description that appears on the boards.ie account you can put your user name and once the admins check it on a regular enough basis it should be pretty manageable.

That is what they were doing at one stage. You're relying on people putting the correct information in though, which doesn't always happen - and you end up with a bit of an administrative nightmare.

Ruu_Old

^ I remember the above happening with the admins getting payments and having to post the users full name in a Feedback thread to find out who the hell sent money.
I've had a few problems with Paypal automatically taking my payment when I was not a recurring subscription. Apparently it was a fault on the Paypal side and apart from that I used Paypal on a weekly basis.
I'll look into a few more payment methods to see if they can apply to boards.ie or adapt it somehow.

Hagar

Thanks for the responses folks.

I don't want to come across as a crank or waste the valuable time of hard pressed smods and admins but since every Mickey Mouse website trying to flog everything from shoelaces to pile ointment can take Visa then why can't one of the biggest sites in Ireland?

Chinafoot

BuffyBot wrote:

That is what they were doing at one stage. You're relying on people putting the correct information in though, which doesn't always happen - and you end up with a bit of an administrative nightmare.

Oh I'm sure there are people who are stupid enough to leave out that valuable piece of information, but to be honest, having a section on the subscription info in big bold letters saying "if using an internet banking transfer you MUST put your username in the transfer description" should suffice. You'll always get the odd tard but fear of that shouldn't completely remove any chance of having that as an option.

I'm sure there are plenty of people like myself who don't own a credit card and have no interest in getting one, yet we still want to have the option of subscribing to boards.

OTK

Hagar wrote:

Explain to me again why you can't accept any credit, debit cards or cheques because I wasn't convinced last time. I honestly thought in the last year a more inclusive sytem would have been devised. There must be lost income in there somewhere...I just don't trust the fukkers. Who are they and who gave them the power they are exercising over peoples finances? Who regulates them?

The subscription link leads to a PayPal page that lets you pay without creating a paypal account. Your cash is sent to PayPal who remit the money to boards.ie. PayPal is part of eBay, which at €45 billion is worth more than any Irish company including CRH and the banks. They are regulated by the UK Financial Services Authority with EU permission to trade across Europe. I doubt they are going to rob your 50 quid.

If boards.ie didn't use an agent like PayPal then to process credit card transactions they would still need to work in concert with other organisations: you need a merchant account from a bank or a payment gateway account like WorldPay, software and a database to securely validate and record transactions. People might trust their credit card details more readily with PayPal than with a non-profit making website run by volunteers.

boards.ie is a great free service, but sometimes it's broken or down or half-working or whatever which is grand for chatting but not for cash transactions.

Sangre

Hagar wrote:

Thanks for the responses folks.

I don't want to come across as a crank or waste the valuable time of hard pressed smods and admins but since every Mickey Mouse website trying to flog everything from shoelaces to pile ointment can take Visa then why can't one of the biggest sites in Ireland?

Afaik its a bit of an expense to set-up the facility to accept visa. Cancel out the benefit of any subs received.

Our man in Havana

AFAIK circa €40 a month for a merchant account.

Hagar

OTK wrote:

The subscription link leads to a PayPal page that lets you pay without creating a paypal account. Your cash is sent to PayPal who remit the money to boards.ie. PayPal is part of eBay,

I know how it works thanks,:rolleyes: I'm questioning the business practices.

As soon as perform a transaction with Paypal you have entered in a commitment to them at some level.

Paypal wrote:

3. ... However, {a}PayPal will retain the information you provide us in relation to your use of PayPal Account Optional in accordance with our Privacy Policy in order to (1) enable you to use PayPal Account Optional for further one-off transactions subject to paragraph 4, (2) to enable us to monitor the use of PayPal Account Optional for {b}risk management purposes and (3) to make it easier for you {c}to open a PayPal account in the future.

4. You will only be able to use PayPal via PayPal Account Optional for up to {d} [10] transactions before we will require you to open a PayPal account with PPEL to enable further use of the PayPal system. At that point you will be required to enter into our {e}standard user agreement to govern the ongoing relationship with PayPal.

5. You should note that your use of PayPal Account Optional does not entitle you to the usual benefits of having a PayPal account. You will not be eligible to take advantage of our {f}Buyer Complaint Policy or any other policies incorporated into the user agreement which we offer to give you protection. You may have {g}additional rights through your agreement with your credit or debit card issuer.

{a} Retain my information, why? If I purchase an item in a shop does the shop have any rights to hold a lot of personal details about me?

{b} Risk managment purposes, what risk? The transaction is complete and the goods or services paid for, how can a fully completed transaction pose any risk to anyone? The only risk to anyone is someone having my details against my wishes.

{c} Open a Paypal account, this is my point they are trying to force you to sign up to their system.

{d}[10] Transactions, the imposition of this limit is again another method of forcing you to sign up to their system.

{e} Standard user agreement, have you ever read their user agreement? It is the most company biased document I have ever seen.

{f} Buyer complaint policy, this is a veiled threat to not enter into any dialogue with you if the transaction goes bad even if it is their fault. Again forcing you to sign up to their system to get the "protection" they offer. From what I have read their buyer complaint system isn't worth much anyway. It amounts to them locking you account while they take unilateral decisions that will effecting your credit rating.

{g} You may have additional rights, I doubt that. As they have already pointed out the transaction with them is actually limited to the purchase of an amount of e-money. The next part of the transaction where that e-money is used to buy goods or services is between them and the third party, albeit on your behalf, you are not involved in this second transaction therefore you have no rights regarding it.

OTK wrote:

I doubt they are going to rob your 50 quid.

I'm not the least bit worried about the €50, my credit rating and details are of much more value to me.


/Edit - Sorry if the coloured items don't work too well in some colour schemes.

seamus

Hagar wrote:

I'm not the least bit worried about the €50, my credit rating and details are of much more value to me.

I'm not sure how it works in France Hagar, but in Ireland PayPal can have no effect on a person's credit rating, and are prohibited from sharing a person's details with other companies under the Data Protection Act.

Without getting into the PayPal debate (I've used it happily, but then I've never had a problem with it), it think the only other viable alternative is to use a credit card gateway such as WorldPay or realex. These guys have you pay a sign-up fee, and then a monthly subscription based on your volume of transactions. So it's up to the Admins to examine their incoming volumes and decide if it's worth it.

Cheque payment and bank transfer are horrifically heavy on your time. It would basically require a person to go through the account/cheques and make sure that each transaction has been counted, and the relevant person had their account updated. Inevitably, phantom payments would arrive in which would require the person to do some comprehensive searching to see if they could match the payment to a user. I wouldn't expect anyone to do that in their spare time. Perhaps if/when boards.ie has its own office with a secretary/admin this might work.

Cuddlesworth

Interesting thread, the only reason I dont subscribe is because of my lack of a credit card. And I'm not too pushed about getting one either.

Beruthiel

ecksor wrote:

Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

I used to be able to write a cheque and have also just handed over the 50 squid to an admin while at a boards beer.
Thus I have been a suscriber from the very start right up to the day the above was stopped.
Since then I have not suscribed, I would like to continue suscribing but I also do not wish to use paypal.

daiixi

B, gimme the cash + 10% at next beers and I will subscribe for you

mike65

Luddites.

Cheques are so 20th century. In 10 years you won't be able to write one.

Mike.

xebec

mike65 wrote:

Cheques are so 20th century. In 10 years you won't be able to write one.

I already can't, I don't have a cheque book.

Hagar

Beruthiel wrote:

Since then I have not suscribed, I would like to continue suscribing but I also do not wish to use paypal.

I really appreciate that supportive post. Thank you.

Ruggie has offered to pay on my behalf but to be honest I feel a bit of a hypocrite imposing on him to do what I cannot bring myself to do. Therefore I'm going to put €50 aside until there is a choice of payment methods. In the meantime I'll struggle on without my pink stars and personalised email. At my age "Sex and Sexuality" belongs in the "All Things Retro" anyway.:D

Sparky

Eh, cant you get access to S+S anyway even if you are a mod?

mike65

Cheques checking out

Mike.

Boston

Question, does boards.ie Ltd file tax returns?

Sangre

Hagar wrote:

{b} Risk managment purposes, what risk? The transaction is complete and the goods or services paid for, how can a fully completed transaction pose any risk to anyone? The only risk to anyone is someone having my details against my wishes.

Well since a lot of people use paypal so they can use their visa/mastercard with a 3rd party without giving the 3rd party their details. This means you credit card details are stored on their system for convenience. Therefore if someone got access to your accounts there'd be a risk.

Btw, imo their complaint investigation is excellent. Had a problem with an ebay buyer and it was sorted lickity split.

Sparky

Boston wrote:

Question, does boards.ie Ltd file tax returns?

Revenue or CRO I think, will tell you that!

Boston

What wrong with asking sparky? And you're wrong revenue won't tell me.

oscarBravo

As a limited company it's required by law to do so, so it's a fair assumption that it does.

Why do you ask?

nesf

oscarBravo wrote:

As a limited company it's required by law to do so, so it's a fair assumption that it does.

Well, any company (limited or partnership or whatever) would have to file some kind of tax returns. There should be a copy of the accounts available to view (for a fee) also, though I think that what's available is pretty basic iirc.

Our man in Havana

They are detailed enough to show a profit or loss.

Vikings

Hagar wrote:

...
{a} Retain my information, why? If I purchase an item in a shop does the shop have any rights to hold a lot of personal details about me?

{b} Risk managment purposes, what risk? The transaction is complete and the goods or services paid for, how can a fully completed transaction pose any risk to anyone? The only risk to anyone is someone having my details against my wishes.

{c} Open a Paypal account, this is my point they are trying to force you to sign up to their system.
...

I work for them so I may come across a little biased but im giving as honest as possible answers here.

(a) and (c) go together there, its more for ease of use than anything, you pay for one thing using paypal then later you want to pay for another, saves having to enter all your details everytime...

With regards to (b), Risk Management is a huge thing and is the area I am in, though the transaction itself seems to be completed chargebacks and the likes can be filed long after a payment is made which is why those details are kept.

Most of the policies are in place to comply with the financial services authority in the uk.

Anyway back on topic, I do agree that limiting subscription payments to paypal only is a bad thing, In fact its the only thing stopping me from subscribing, I would gladly send cash or start a bank transfer to subscribe if that was still available. Though I do understand the inconvenience of those methods on the admin side which is why I havnt complained

Beruthiel

daiixi wrote:

B, gimme the cash + 10% at next beers and I will subscribe for you

You can sing for your 10% missy.
I might buy you a pint though....

Sparky

Boston wrote:

What wrong with asking sparky? And you're wrong revenue won't tell me.

Oh nothing wrong with asking at all.

Beruthiel wrote:

You can sing for your 10% missy.
I might buy you a pint though....

or an easter egg. A big chocolate (mmmmmm) easter egg.

regi

Boston wrote:

Question, does boards.ie Ltd file tax returns?

Sure we do. We even had to pay some corporation tax last year.

Cheques / credit transfer are an awful pain for an organisation looked after by busy people with full-time jobs. We definately don't want to take cash.

We looked at getting a merchant account - it used to be quite painful, but I've not looked for a few years. Since the in-built system managed most subscriptions quite well and you didn't need a paypal account to actually use it, we decided against it.

oscarBravo

IncredibleBulk wrote:

I work for [PayPal] so I may come across a little biased but im giving as honest as possible answers here.

...

Anyway back on topic, I do agree that limiting subscription payments to paypal only is a bad thing, In fact its the only thing stopping me from subscribing, I would gladly send cash or start a bank transfer to subscribe if that was still available.

Waitaminute - are you seriously saying you work for PayPal, but won't use their services to pay for something?